Nice pics!

The cedars are Cedrus libani var. stenocoma; I'd doubt they are zone 5 hardy though, more likely 6/7.

The junipers tagged "Juniperus polycarpos" are presumably Juniperus excelsa, as J. polycarpos is not reported from this region, only from the Caucasus eastwards.

Resin

Pineresin,
We think now in Hungary some, that stenocoma never existed, just in the books. It's only one Cedrus libani, as various as other specieses do that overall.
I selected a Tuzfold, which was bright green in -30 Celsius, as my Cedrus atlantica population frosts every 4-5 years to red or brown. My garden lies in a frosty hole with z5. The other one, Cedrus libani Nemrut Dagi is the other z5 cedar, selected from Lake Van 1700 meters. These are facts. The climate in the higher southern Toros over 1500 meters is so hard, that -30 Celsius with long storms are selecting the plants good enough.

Another fact, that the Corvinus Gardening University teaches even today, that z6 is not enough for Cedrus libani. Thats true, if you collect seeds or scions on the seashore. If you work with materials over 1500 meters, you have a totally different cedar.

As you see, Hodi Toth brought now further 5 cedars from over 1700 meters, they are all z5 cedars, and I will examine them also in my frosty hole garden too. If you live in z5, you can also try them later.

I give a link af the Juniperus polycarpos Hontalan, which is 4 years old. Hodi Toth, the breeder cleared some years ago the situation. This was really an unexpected find in the southern Toros Mts., 1000 kilometers from the western Caucasus. From now the area of Juniperus polycarpos is greater with the Toros Mts.

Thanks for your interests

Zsolt

Here is a link that might be useful: Juniperus polycarpos Hontalan 4 years graft in Arizonica Arboretum

Hi Zsolt,

Remember that zone numbers are based on average minima, not absolute minima. This difference is very often overlooked, but is of major importance; it is severe winters that kill trees, not average ones. In a severe winter, zone 7 can get as cold as -30°C (e.g. recorded in Denmark in the 1981/82 winter), even though its average minimum is only -12° to -17°. In zone 5, a severe winter could get as low as -35° to -40°C, and I doubt that your cedars will survive that.

Recent genetic evidence has shown that Cedrus libani var. stenocoma is a valid taxon; it is actually more closely related to Cedrus libani var. brevifolia from Cyprus, than it is to Cedrus libani var. libani from Lebanon.

I'd want to see more evidence of that supposed Juniperus polycarpos. Has any genetic analysis been carried out? Try sending material to R P Adams at Baylor University in Texas, he has carried out a major study of junipers.

Resin

Resin,
Before we open a nice new thread about theoretical questions otherwhere, I have also something doubts.

Average or minimum is far not the same, of course. If you live in a declared z7, and every 50 years you get a -40 Celsius, your flora will be cleared for the next 50 years. Since that time you are no z7 anymore, just z4 with happy hours. After the big frosts anyone can plant new palms or what, these are no more in safety.

The USDA tablet speaks in minimums, as I understand it well. Cedrus libani is generally a z6 plant
USDA Zone6 (-10 to 0 F / -23.3 to -17.8 C
as of ACS and RHS common database. They make difference to "stenocoma", as the Toros cedar, and it is
USDA Zone5 (-20 to -10 F / -28.8 to -23.4 C.

In this sence you dont have to feel doubts, I think. Otherwise my selections are based on the given experiences and datas in my garden, not only books in generelly.

Seemingly the previous botanists saw a kind of difference in the Lebanon cedar complex. Why? I opened short ago a Cedus libani gallery from a friends photography, where the Lebanon national cedar reserve is to be found on 2200 meters above sea level. This is far higher as the Toros cedars, despite all no one suggested these to call z5 plants. In the Toros the cedars have the range of z5 as of on 1500 meters.

What could be the difference? I think its mainly of climatic causes. The Anatolian massive is over 1000-1300 meters, rather big, and has a climate with rather frosty and stormy winters as the european monsoon is working there 5 month long. Meanwhile they are fighting for life, soil, in the Lebanon situation is everything much milder: the sea is very near, behind the mountains are hot deserts in Syria, and far not so dramatic as on the Irmasan, the Sagalassos etc.

In the Junipreus polycarpos theme I will ask my HTJ friend for further informations.

Zsolt

"The USDA tablet speaks in minimums, as I understand it well"

You missed out the all-important word average; this word is clearly started in the USDA material on the definitions.

"If you live in a declared z7, and every 50 years you get a -40 Celsius, your flora will be cleared for the next 50 years"

But the native flora is not cleared by such events. Clearly it is adapted to the extreme temperatures that occur in an area, not just to the average temperatures.

A plant which is capable of surviving an extreme of -30°C does not mean it will survive in an area where the average minimum is -30°, because many winters will be colder than that average, and therefore able to kill the plant that only tolerates -30°. You cannot measure a plant's survival tolerance as an USDA zone figure, you have to add a couple of zone numbers to allow for the difference between averages and extremes.

Lebanese Cedrus libani var. libani is hardy in zone 8, marginal in zone 7. I am aware of numerous cases of even large specimens killed in zone 7 in severe winters. It is absolutely not a zone 6 plant.

Toros Mts Cedrus libani var. stenocoma is hardy in zone 7, maybe hardy in zone 6.

Resin

Resin,
what I see and know of my cedars is not the same as you say. The z8 and z7 is too much for me, it seems more theoretical as real. By your way in the continental Europe there should have been exis no surviving lebanon cedars. But we have a 260 years old one after the famous 1929 z3-4 frosts.
Zsolt

There is no such thing as a "z3-4 frost", that is incorrect use of terminology. Weather is not the same as climate.

Resin

Resin,

Some sources about Cedrus libani from Turkey

Reforestation…
http://ressources.ciheam.org/om/pdf/a75/00800313.pdf
Ibrahim Atalay
http://www.jeb.co.in/journal_issues/201001_jan10/paper_07.pdf
Ibrahim Atalay
http://www.uni-graz.ac.at/geowww/hmrsc/pdfs/hmrsc7/atalay29-38.pdf

The turkish sources never mention the plant name Cedrus libani stenocoma. Just Cedrus libani. They should have use the „Turkish cedar” terminology, but they do not use it. If a turkish scientist knows only Cedrus libani, I’m ready to accept it as he is at home in his country.

Generally I give much more credit in my conifer books to chinese scientists in describing their own flora (Sylva Sinica), as for russians in their country (Komarov, Czerepanov) like any others.

Resin, I fully respect the british role in discovering in world’s botany, but since a time as the world is no more a british dominium, we have to accept the local science’s point of views.

Sagalassos II
The physical environment of Sagalassos
http://books.google.com/books/p/leuven_university_press?id=L_41KIX2pVoC&printsec=frontcover&hl=nl#v=onepage&q&f=false

The University Leuven followed archaeologic excavations in Sagalassos, which has a physical environment description. Belgian scientists were going on to give a complete picture about the excavating site, even deep climatic datas with.
Here we can read, that the years average temperature in Sagalassos is 9,9 Celsius degree. This is the same as me in Hungary, but the Sagalassos environment is totally different.
The coldest month is January with av. -5,8 with repeatedly coming -30 C. They have there 4 months dry and cold, and inside 80 days with dry sun. These are very hard circumstances with selecting power. The biggest problem is of these cedars the beeing without water. Maybe there is an av. yearly rainfall 600-1200 mm, the plants get water only once a year at snow melting! Summer is hot and dry, snow is even very much in winters, but the cedars there get water in a short month. Last, but not least about wind. I guess alaskan scientists know well, that a -20 C with 60 km/h wind works like a silent -40C.

The USDA zones are used at us too, but not perfect. Cant make differece in frost resisting, climate resistence or winter resistence, which are very different things.

My point of view with the high selected lebanon cedars, that if we carry them to a little or more better circumstances, they will not only survive, but they have very good chance to grow well in z5, as they do it.

The new selecting program of HTJ is based on such like datas, and till now he brought out there 20 new cultivars ��" green, silvery or blue, also differents in habit, form etc. as Cedrus libanis are all different and variable inside the species. These plants are selected for dry continental circumstances in Eastern Europe and the Rockies in the States even up to Canada.

The semidesert conifering will bring hopefully new achievements. Having an example of Cupressus. The semidesert cypresses from the US are very good selection matters to the continental Europe or even in Turkey. The last winter in Hungary was really hard with long -25-28 C frosts. The SW US originated cypresses in the very dry Arizonica Arboretum had no damage. The same cultivars in urban areas got heavy problems, many died or frosted up to 2-3 meters. I realized, that the continental cypresses have a big enemy: the water.
The British Isles or Holland is not quite good for the continental cypresses: no heat, not enough sun and too much rain. If you want to select cypresses to the wet european areas, you should choose the himalayan or formosan specieses, which tolerate cold, sun and too much water. HTJ has some of them too after the world conifer discoveries of Debreczy and Racz in the last 30 years.

Zsolt

Notes

Sagalassos II: report on the third excavation campaign of 1992 By Marc Waelkens, J.P. Page 231 and further

Ibrahim Atalay, 1987 General Ecological Properties of Natural Occurence Areas of Cedar / Cedrus libani A. Rich./ Forest and Regioning of Seed Transfer of Cedar in Turkey Orman Genel Müdürlügü Yayini. Yayin No. 663 Ankara

M. Boydak, Reforestation of Lebanon Cedar /Cedrus libani A. Rich./ in Bare Karstic Lands by Broadcast Seeding in Turkey Page 35

Zsolt

The turkish sources never mention the plant name Cedrus libani stenocoma. Just Cedrus libani.

That is not true:

193.140.176.19/dersler/mgenc/ste/ste11.pdf

www2.cedgm.gov.tr/icd_raporlari/muglaicd2006.pdf

They should have use the „Turkish cedar” terminology, but they do not use it. If a turkish scientist knows only Cedrus libani, I’m ready to accept it as he is at home in his country.

So following this, you will accept that Cupressus stephensonii is just another Cupressus arizonica, for in the Jepson Flora of California it is considered as a mere synonym.

Generally I give much more credit in my conifer books to chinese scientists in describing their own flora (Sylva Sinica),

So you don't accept Cupressus austrotibetica, because it is considered by most Chinese authors as a Cupressus torulosa, quite wrongly. By the way the nomenclature for this Chinese taxon comes originally both ways from English speaking authors.

Resin, I fully respect the british role in discovering in world’s botany, but since a time as the world is no more a british dominium, we have to accept the local science’s point of views.

and

Having an example of Cupressus.

No, we don't have to accept the local science's point of views when they are obviously wrong. And you are not accepting either, because you are correctly speaking of Cupressus arizonica, and not of the local science's point of view, only designed to bring confusion in the nomenclature. We have to observe the plants from different origins and to consider all the available evidence. If this evidence is not enough to take a nomenclature decision, we have to bring in new observations and new studies. Science is working like that.

Also Semidesert does not apply to Turkey as a climate.

When speaking about a taxon, its hardiness, its drought tolerance, etc., we speak about a population, not about a cultivar.

By the way, have you grown together a libani and a stenocoma? If not, maybe you should, or ask someone who did.

Whats that???

Nothotsuga,

This will be an interesting conversation. I studied your follow-up, and this gives a catastrophal summary for you.

http://193.140.176.19/dersler/mgenc/ste/ste11.pdf 35-36 pages

You try to show, that the stenocoma is used in Turkey.

Kantarci (1982) Toros sediri için, Türkiye’de 11 form tespit etmiştir:

Koyu yeşil ibreli sedir (Cedrus libani A. Richard)
Boz yeşil ibreli sedir (no latin name)
Mavi ibreli sedir (Cedrus libani var. glauca)
Yeşil ibreli sedir (Cedrus libani var. viridis)
Açık yeşil ibreli sedir (no latin name)
Çok acık yeşil ibreli sedir (no latin name)
Altuni sedir (Cedrus libani var. aurea)
Bodur sedir (Cedrus libani var. nana)
Piramit sedir (Cedrus libani var. stenocoma
Sarkik dalli sedir (no latin name)
Şamdan dalli sedir (no latin name)

You tell me, that turkish sources are using the Stenocoma name. The name is really mentioned, but how? Kantarci in 1982 tried to describe some forms of Toros cedars. Among these the stenocoma was mentioned as a pyramidal type. (Piramit sedir = fastigiate cedar). This is not correct way, as you are searching on your computer to the name only. Kantarci mentions this as a form, and far not as a ssp. or var. as you liked it. As young plants all cedars are pyramidal, but not fastigiate.
1 0 to me my friend

The other page you mention is 500 pages long in turkish.
www2.cedgm.gov.tr/icd_raporlari/muglaicd2006.pdf
Its absolutely clear, that you was searching only for stenocoma.

Would you be so kind to give me, which page contains the „stenocoma” name in the turkish text? Do you speak turkish?
I was speaking about, that no one from Turkey called the cedars there as stenocoma. Far not about mentioning the name ever. Thats a big difference.
2 0 to me my friend

After that you made a statement, which I never told, just in your phantasy:
You say:
So following this, you will accept that Cupressus stephensonii is just another Cupressus arizonica, for in the Jepson Flora of California it is considered as a mere synonym.

No my friend, I think your sources are not correct, and if the californians hate the arizonicans because of two cypresses, you’d better to go to a doctor.
3 0 to me my friend

After that an other false statement of you:

So you don't accept Cupressus austrotibetica, because it is considered by most Chinese authors as a Cupressus torulosa, quite wrongly. By the way the nomenclature for this Chinese taxon comes originally both ways from English speaking authors.

??
Are you a freedomfighter?
If Silba is good enough to keep out at his austrotibetica description, maybe, but he is not at home.
4 0 to me my friend

Than an other pearl from you:

No, we don't have to accept the local science's point of views when they are obviously wrong. And you are not accepting either, because you are correctly speaking of Cupressus arizonica, and not of the local science's point of view, only designed to bring confusion in the nomenclature. We have to observe the plants from different origins and to consider all the available evidence. If this evidence is not enough to take a nomenclature decision, we have to bring in new observations and new studies. Science is working like that.

Oh, thats clear. You will say to everybody from your ivory tower, whats news are? Please.
5 0 to me my friend

An other statement of you:

Also Semidesert does not apply to Turkey as a climate.

Try it my friend, go there, and see with your own eyes.
6 0 to me my friend

Last one:

By the way, have you grown together a libani and a stenocoma? If not, maybe you should, or ask someone who did.

Surely, both are the same.
7 0

Best wishes

Zsolt

I just bumped into these conversation, and I think much stems from major difference between Central and Western - Northern Europe Climate.

I agree with Resin that USDA zones count average minimal temperatures. So if a plant can stand -25 C it does not mean it is Z6 plant but just that it can stand -25 C. It will be a Z6 plant when it will grow long and mature in Z6...

Now the problem is what is Z6 - in lowland climate of Northern Europe the western winds can penetrate far into continent along the Baltic sea, so the normal winters are very mild but sometimes when the eastern wind appears temperature can drop dramatically.
In Central Europe - south of the mountain ranges the ocean influence is much weaker and "normal" winters are colder, but the mountain barrier protects those areas from really cold winds. That is why absolute minimum is something not so different from absolute minimum.

I collected climatic data from major Polish cities for last 10 years and counted their USDA zones and they perfectly fit the zones on the USDA zone map of Europe. But that is if we count the average minimum of course. The best example is Szczecin in the north-western Poland - Z7a/b avaerage minimum about -18 C but in 1987 they recorded -32 C and it is still Z7 because these one "incident" have not affected average.

It had affected plants thought - one of the oldest Sequoiadendrons in Europe (planted around 1850 38 m tall) died these winter...

I have never seen old (more than 30 years) cedars (Cedrus libani as well) in Northern Europe outside of Z7. I assume that some Turkish populations can be hardy to Z6 but not more...

Of course with cedars (that are my passion) the other very important factor is length of the summer and frost period in winter. Last winter many cedars in Northern Polaand and Germany were very affected (lost needles) even thought the frost only reached about -22 C but the duration of temperatures below 0 was more than 30 days and phisiological drought did the damage. I know the climatic condition of the Taurus mountains were the absolute minimums are about -35 C but after such night the day on latitude 35 N brings snowmelt!

Zsolt - do you offer maybe those hardness selected cedars in your nursery? If yest could you e-mail me - I will be visiting Hungary these year and I have a few friedns that may be interested in those plants.

And last the picture of two cedars bought by owner who even did not have any idea what he brought from trip to Turkey 20 years ago - growing in Z6A latitude 52,5 N. Survived with no winter burn -32 C in 2006. Those are the trees that inspired me to try to grow cedars at my location but nobody from dendrologial authorities believes in their existence...

Regards

CedLib

Hi CedLib,

you are completely right and I agree with you.
I plant in the middle of Hessen and there is more continental climate and I plant in the North near the Baltic Sea on the border to Denmark.Normally the winters in the North are not so cold and from 2004 till 2009 the plants had no problems. In 2009/10 we had there 10 weeks cold East dry wind, not such low temperatures like here in the middle of Germany ( -22!C/-24�C). But all younger Sequoiadendron had many brown needles and were much damaged. Some died. Here the Sequoiadendron had less problems although the temps were lower, but here we have not such horrible wind.

Wolfgang