WOW, great plan! It would be cool though if you made like a little grove of dawn redwoods or sequoias.

I think it's absolutely stunning. It all fits. When you purchase a concolor or a cembra, find a narrow-form.

I walked thru your landscape in my mind. It's a knock-out.

Dax

Is your plan drawn to scale...if so what is the scale?

Some concerns about Picea o. 'Aureospicata' so close to the house. A beautiful conifer that you should retain in your plan but possibly in another location.

Picea orientalis âÂÂAureospicataâ grows slowly to about 10 feet high and 6 feet wide in ten years. It will eventually reach 50 to 60 feet high and about 20 or 30 feet wide. It has a dense, pyramidal shape. Its upper branches reach upwards and its lower branches form a beautiful skirt around the tree.

Picea pungens...going with species or do you have some cultivar in mind?

Dave

I didn't see that. Somehow I missed Aureospicata. It does need a lot of room. That's the only one I missed of course.

Best Regards,

Dax

Ok. I look at this more-closely.

Picea glauca var. densata is simply Picea mariana and I think it would be very wise to scratch it. It's very-slow-growing. Instead, another (rich/dark-green) conifer should be considered. I might consider Pinus resinosa (a native) as a first-choice. Hopefully others will chime in with suggestions.

Bald cypress: you cannot find a better form with better fall color as well, than: Taxodium distichum Shawnee Brave aka Mickelson. That's a must for you and is more-suited to home landscape plans for its' width.

Blue Picea pungens: while the rave will always be Hoopsii, I could show you photos of this tree for future size, or you can simply take my advice that this cultivar becomes extremely wide. I'm talking 30 feet across, easily. You would be best to, again find a narrower-cultivar or, a recommendation I would add is: Picea engelmannii Bush's Lace as it does grow at least 18" a year and under perfect conditions (varying yearly upon annual "climate") can grow up to 3' in a single season. It is a narrow form, again however, given enough time this tree will have a wide-enough... footprint. There will be many choices yet to consider after the guys start chiming in.

Picea pungens Green. Find a beautiful seedling suited to your color preference. Or, maybe more suggestions will follow.

Lastly, the only things that might now have jived were the space-requirements for the Pinus cembra and the Abies concolor. Then, I saw that there was quite a bit of room between the lindens for a full-sized concolor albeit a narrow tree, only. Also, looking at where the flags are placed (I can't tell how far the distance is from the driveway) it did appear you might have the flag for the Pinus cembra, way too close. A tree that would work, indeed and in place of, is: Pinus strobus Stowe Pillar. This culitvar is an enormous improvement over Pinus strobus 'Fastigiata'. It will be a very narrow column and will not "open-up" like all P.s. Fastigiata, do.

Personally, and I thought this all along, Picea engelmannii Bush's Lace is a form that is unnatural and may resemble more of a "collectors" garden than the image you are portraying. A "regular" pyramidal form with excellent blue-color is what you should be looking for.

All the best,

Dax

All thanks for the comments so far. Totally open to cultivars and other conifers that are must haves for a landscape.

dcsteg,
The PO centerline is 12' from the house. I'm open to cultivars on the P.pungens. But want to keep it basic. I'll utilize specialty plants around the house (front yard here there is plenty of sun).

dax,
I've been told P. mariana is very slow growing, but as you eluded to I wanted that stiff dark green look, wasn't sure what to go after that is wind and drought tolerate for a slope (white spruce is fairly free of any issues around here). Pinus resinosa is available for free as seedllings by the county extension but I "thought" they had disease problems comparable to Pinus nigra. Note taken on Shawnee Brave. My old neighbor had a straight species that was 12 years old and only 18' tall...slow growers in clay for sure (although I don't have clay here). Note taken on P.pungens. I have Picea engelmannii Bush's Lace down as an option. I'll check out Pinus strobus Stowe Pillar, I really do like the look of P. strobus. The flags are actually the invisible fence for the pup...at least she still acts like one.

From the neighbors green tarp to my drive is 25'.

I surveyed a few people in this area about their P.pungens and P.abies and the majority planted them 12-15 years ago, now about 15'-18' tall. Those species plants are averaging 12"-16" a year over the last 12-15 years to give you all an idea of the growth rates here.

i would put the GG right down that drive.. about 10 feet in .. and hide that darn green tarp and the neighbor ... and whats all the broken branches along that area??? is that the carp tree we discussed getting rid of/cabling??? if so .. GET RID OF IT!!!!!

otherwise i dont see any glaring problems ...

but i will note.. that your property tends to fall down away from the house.. if you have particular site lines to block .. one plant.. 10 to 15 feet from the house.. will block a view much faster than a plant out at the lot line.. some 5 to 10 feet lower ... make sense ...

what you might do .... is plant some GG's closer.. so they do the block.. for say 10 years.. AND PLANT THE ONES DOWN AT THE LOT LINE ... WITH THE FULL INTENT OF REMOVING THE CLOSER ONES.. when the further ones get to size.. say 2 hours before they grow out of your capability to take them down yourself for free ... let me know if i need to try that again.. lol

ken

Pinus resinosa is bullet-proof. It was in fact, the first pine recommended to me, by Resin...

Get yourself a nice-big-seedling to start with, they should be a cheap, investment...

Dax

Dax,
I'll add P.resinosa to the list. I'll have to find someone to share with though...you get (25)15" bareroot plants for $18.

ken,
all that brush is from the the basal sukcers on my lindens, the poplar that caming crashing to its death, along with the multi-stemmed boxelder becoming a single stem. I found out I'm the proud owner of two other boxelders. Those will be coming down, crashing to their death. I have the felco 611 on its way...things will become parralel with the earth in no time. I had another arborist over and he said to cut the green ash down but recommended that I keep the Tilia americana. I agree with him on that one He said there was no need to cable at this time. Said I need to watch it over the next few years to see how it responds to the soil compaction of the new construction process before investing in it. So with all the conifers your growing you only recommend the GG ?lol?

hey

you are going to be amazed what a saw like that felco 611 will do ... two inch branch in 3 to 5 swipes????

the GG .... where i recommended.. is a project which involves BLOCKING THAT VIEW .... ASAP .... no other conifer has the potential to solve that issue as fast as the GG ...

as to anything else in you plan.. its all up to what pleases you ...

ID goal ... block neighbor .. accomplish that goal.. as fast as you can ...

i dont understand your answer ... that tree with all the brush under it is yours.. but its the neighbors garage.. yes???

BTW ... with all thuja [arbs] .. INSURE you get single leader plants ... they will take to snow load much better than multi-trunked plants ... buy small if need be.. to get the single leader ...

ken

Whaas, you (may) send me an email... I have some 8"-12" Pinus resinosa seedlings. I would think however... to purchase a single tree mail-order at 4-5 feet is going to be real cheap, and, will take off 4-5 years of waiting time.

Dax

Here's the only website I could find. You can get a 2-3 foot tree though for 8 bucks.

Dax

Here is a link that might be useful: Cold Stream Farm

Hello Whaas,

Where about do you live,I also live near you northern Sheboygan Co.I also have simular soil type.
I have some thuja Plicata growing very well,so GG should do good.Someone mentioned sequoia in thier suggestion,if you have an area at the bottom of that slope with better soil moisture and lots of room that may work,I have a few of those growing also.Here is a list of trees that are doing well for me.

Douglas fir
Korean fir
Boulavard cypress
Incense cedar
Hinoki false cypress
Pinus Cembra
Alaska yellow Cedar
Serbian spruce( very fast grower)
pinus Aristata and Longeava

Sorry for the common names or wrong spelling,it's to early to look them up.Hopefully this helps

lp

Nice list of trees lp

Cupressus nootkatensis/formerly Chamaecyparis nootkatensis is a must for all landscapes. Whichever form will work best for your envision.

Sorry to say, but you will never be able to grow either Sequoi sempervirens or Sequoiadendron gigantea, anywhere in the state of Wisconsin. I shouldn't say anywhere, but it's going to be damn near impossible.

Douglas fir (interior America) you will be able to grow as I also am able to grow but with a big-however; the result is going to eventually be an unhealthy tree resulting in a sparse appearance. To successfully grow this tree a person would need a climate with relatively low-humidity or preferably, a dry-climate.

Incense cedar - excellent! If you are able to keep one alive for 5-years w/o pampering it, you've got a tree for life. They are indeed zone 5 when their roots are well-established.

Pinus aristata will always be a chance-investment as well. There is more of a chance that it will become sparse/I> in climates with humidity however... it's such a wonderful pine that my own landscape (6 acres and more than 10-years worth of time spent on this forum where known authors and "scientists" are often, daily visitors...

Pinus longaeva - is virtually the same tree-species as aristata. Its' ability to cope with humidity is far less tolerant than aristata... so that should be skipped, almost-completely.

Best o'luck. ...Dax

Nice plant selection, whaas. With the size caveats already mentioned, just a little tweaking should be all that's needed.

Dax- Picea glauca var. densata (Black Hills Spruce) is not Picea mariana (Black Spruce).

tj

Ken,
Tree with the brush under it is mine. The garden shed is the neighbors.
The tree is literally inside my lot line and maybe 4â from the garden shed.
I technically could fuss about the shed being within 4â of my lot line but its just a sweet old little lady that has been living there for 20 years. IâÂÂll watch for the single leaders, havenâÂÂt really considered that on arbs before.

Dax,
Looks like cold stream farm has the basics, but well priced. I might have to try a couple plants from them. By the way I was paging through my âÂÂDirrâÂÂs Hardy Trees and Shrubsâ book and he has this to say about P. resinosa. âÂÂIn the past, Red Pine has been utilized throughout the East and Midwest, but this northern US native is vastly inferior to most other landscape species. Although extolled for the quality of its foliage and growth habit, to find a noble specimen would prove a challenge.â Is he saying they become unruly or weak with age?
Also what is the chance investment with Pinus aristata? Do they struggle with areas of high humidity?

Lp,
Thanks for the additional selections. Sounds like I should consider a few more, but may need to proceed with caution on a couple.

Tj,
I noticed that when I saw both listed as an option. None the less I still hear white spruces are slow growers. I have a 9â in my front yard that I just love but its in the wrong spot (itâÂÂs a native on the lot).

What is everyoneâÂÂs thought on these species?
Any must haves, or cultivars I should focus on?

Pinus bungeana
Pinus flexilis
Pinus koraiensis
Pinus wallichiana

Pinus koraiensis is your best bet for this area of those four. 'Silveray' is readily available and a good choice. 'Morris Blue' is another similar clone also available.

tj

BTW- Not sure of Black Hills Spruce, but Picea glauca in general grows about 12 to 18 inches per year.

tj

I'll add that one to the list as well. I'm actually getting a little frustrated by the availability of these plants in the area.

Minors and Johnsons have some items beyond the basics but you pay an arm and a leg (even P.omorika is expensive). Everyone seriously carries P.abies, pungens, black hills spruce and then Pinus nigra...what gives? I thought this plant is horrible for the area but is the only Pinus stock (isn't it the Bradford pear of conifers?)

Are there other nurseries in the area that I might be missing? Otherwise I'll get the basics in larger sizes and go mail order for the others.

The only B&B conifer I ever got (I usually plant 1 gal or smaller) was a five foot Pinus koraiensis 'Morris Blue' from Garden of Eder. Stonewall Nursery south of Madison in Oregon, WI might be worth a drive, you may be able to talk turkey with a package deal. Prospect Hill Nursery in New Berlin can suprise you as well. A long shot sometimes is Action Garden Center also in New Berlin. And remember, most of these folks can order whatever you want.

tj

Here's a rundown of some of the questions:

Pinus aristata - will suffer in areas of high humidity/be stunted. Not so much of a disease concern though. They may not just have their best possible, form. slow-grower

Pinus nigra - is suffering/completely being annihilated throughout the midwest from a fungal disease. The most similar in appearance choice is: Pinus heldreichii; formerly Pinus leucodermis.

Pinus bungeana - "worth a shot" will suffer from high humidity and, possibly fungal diseases such as white pine blister rust. slow-grower

Pinus koraienis - bulletproof - slow-grower. (9" a year) To even have any fighting chance, I'd recommend something in the 5 to 8 foot category or you'll be waiting forever.

Pinus resinosa - is attractive. It's a pine that becomes open with age. Still reliably the most immune to all disease and insects in the Mid-west. fast-grower

Living with deer requires a basic & overall understanding that the sharper the foliage, the less-susceptible. Also, deer will find a green conifer somewhere within an entire garden of variegated conifers, and solely-eat on that plant.

Dax

Thanks Dax!

I really have to watch plants for deer resistance. I had 3 sightings already within 2 weeks.

This is my final list of what I'm going to start with.

I'm still looking into various cultivars on some. For the most part all are "fairly" deer resistance except for Tsuga canadensis correct?

Abies Concolor
Cupressus nootkatensis
Picea abies
Picea glauca var densata
Picea omorika
Picea orientalis (Aureospicata)
Picea pungens
Pinus cembra
Pinus koraiensis (Silveray)
Pinus resinosa
Pinus strobus (Stowe Pillar)
Thuja plicata (Green Giant)
Tsuga canadensis

Deer eat readily:
Pinus cembra - they really like this one.
Pinus strobus - same as cembra.

Deer may like (Hopefully tj can chime in)
Pinus koraiensis (I get some browsing each year on a larger specimen 6' tall but not much).
Pinus resinosa - same as koraiensis

Cage whatever you finally choose upon until your specimens are at least 6 feet tall. Then, you'll have a very good chance at growing the conifers that are deer-prone.

I have no idea about Tsuga canadensis but it's a conifer that definitely is picky about too much water, not enough water; too much sun in the Mid-west. But! If you can keep one alive for a long-time, they are grand conifers deserving their space for a full lifetime. It is very rare to find those 50 and 75 footers, but when one does, look out!

I will assume deer would view it as eye-candy... the best, specimens I've found in IL/IO are in wooded areas where there's a lot of moss growing, usually near streams or ponds and where they've got enough room to make a run, escaping the deciduous forest and really being/becoming prized-looking, conifers.

Dax

Unfortunately if you can't fence them out you will never realize what you are trying to accomplish with your private garden setting. It makes no difference if the conifers are 6 ft. tall or 25 ft. tall. They will eat branches up to as high as they can reach on their hind feet.

The 6ft. tall ones they will always go for the top branches first therefore ruining the conifer.

My conifer garden is fenced on 3 sides with a row of 40 ft. Junipers on the back side they can't penetrate..

Rabbits are your 2nd worst enemy. If the snow is to deep to provide food your conifers and dwarf trees come under attack. They did a number on me last winter but that is resolved by by installing a 30 inch high fence that a bird could not get through to the chain link fence already there.

I sleep well at nights now.

Dave

dcsteg,

To dax's point, wouldn't I utilize the "sharp" needle conifers that are needed for critical screening locations?

I understand everything else would be considered a risk, but if I really need to plant candy for the deer or rabbits I can locate those plants in areas that may be less likely to get hit (ie in the middle of the yard). I just need to be aware of which ones are "candy". I absolutely dispise fences (unless natural) with a passion, lol.

I have about 8 years left with my yellow lab, who does a stellar job of spotting animals out the windows and chasing them out of the yard. The rabbits where devasting at my last house. I had cage many more plants than I would like to.

dax,

I'll have to plan accordingly. For the most part I put the sharp needle Picea to where screening is critical. The only one I can comment on is Pinus strobus, there are a few groves in the area (as well as on my street) that look pretty good. I doubt anyone protected them.

The funny thing is that one neighbor who as 1/4 acre next door says she never sees deer (she has been there 20 years). The other neighbor who is on a more wooded 1 acre lot says he sees deer ALL the time. Makes sense but the other neighor is all but 250' away at most.

You get the idea, (there's nothing more you can do...)

Was sort of surprised the Shawnee Brave was removed from your list; a magnificent tree only 18' wide when 75 feet tall.

Dax

Can't speak to what deer like, being an urban gardener, but I can say rabbits love Picea omorika & orientalis and (for some reason) only select Tsuga canadensis. They also nipped Pinus parviflora 'Tamina no Yuki' and Pinus peuce 'Mrs Cessarini' for the first time last year. No other pines were ever hit by rabbits here.

tj

Whaas...A fence where I live is a necessity, period.

My conifers & companion plants screen the fence for the most part to the point no one knows it's there or could care less.

We have a Deer population of 50 per square mile down from a 167 per square mile from last year. All were shot and the meat & hides given to people in need. In my opinion 50 is still to many. 10 would be acceptable.

Without the fence protection my garden would consist of nothing and I would be behind bars for discharging a gun within city limits. My investment is considerable and I do all that is necessary within the law to protect it.

For all you newbies that are planning a conifer garden in high Deer population areas you will get hit and take your losses. So...want a fence or 50-100 caged plants that present an unattractive and unacceptable alternative for saving conifers that will get eaten when the cages are removed.

tj...Yes, Picea omorika & orientalis along with Acer palms were the hardest hit. Picea abies...were for the most part left alone. Picea pungens were left alone.

167 deer per sq. mile is absolutely insane! As a ratio to people, WI has one of the highest populations in the US and there isn't a county/area with more than 64 per sq. mile. Your right, 10 is a much better number.

You are obviously way beyond the norm for deer population in the US. I understand your need for a fence. Hopefully you took no offense to the fence comment.

dax, those are just the conifers, lol. I still prefer deciduous trees and shrubs over conifers (I'll probably get shot for saying that here, lol). That bald cypress is definitely on my list.

Everyone, thanks for all the help so far!

Sorry folks, one last question. In general am I better with with pruchasing 3-4' specimans in b&b or container?

Originally I was thinking b&b but most of the nurseries in my area are growing in clay...mine is more sandy...thus I'm now thinking container grown.

I should have added, I have yet to pruchase a plant that wasn't rootbound in its pot. Not by choice, its just a rampart issue in the industry.

Its a freaking nightmare trying to unravel those roots half the time. Not sure if Picea and Pinus (generally speaking) have a fiberous root system or not.

A pot is better. Most folks on here will still wash off all the media and plant in native soil. Is is becoming late in the year so I would advise if for any reason (my soil is frozen) you do buy your trees (maybe they're on sale now...) that you plant the tree in the container (or B&B) and mulch it well and then, plant next spring.

Back to the media. I did my fingers thru the entire rootball from every angle and I pull on every root like someone pulling thru ratty-hair. Most of the media comes off but not all. "J roots" - those that are noticeably the shape of a J you should clip off the u-shape so the root is able to be kept straight. Be sure you really rake your hands & fingers thru the rootball... then dig, make a crown in the middle of your hole and spread the roots over the crown and don't backfill until you are 'confident' the roots are straight and are not overlapping each other.

Sand according to ken is its' own animal. I would water the heck out of the area, then dig, and then water the hole until all the sand is settled, deep. Then go ahead and build your crown with compacted-sand and refill the hole. The only question that really Ken-only should answer is how deep or how high above the soil line the tree's original height of the "root-line" that the new rootball should be placed.

Maybe tj/Tom has the answers, but I seem to recall he gardens in clay.

Hope this all helps, ya know.

fyi - I buy in bare-root conifers in spring with little to none fibrous-roots... but after I pot them up, the same fall of that year - the container is rampant with fibrous-roots.

Dax

I have to remember that crown idea...not sure why I didn't do that before on some of the shrubs I had to dig up and untangle.

I missed my window for this fall, but spring will be here before you know it!

The soil here is strange, its like a mix of loam, clay and sand...I don't think that exist but its the best I can describe it. The local folks call it sandy and rocky, but its not your typical sand. It still gets slick and muddy.

As I'm combing through these roots, I assume I don't want to be aggressive and rip all the fibrous roots but how careful do I need to be?

Thanks!

I was browsing a M.Dirr book and saw he listed Picea omorika at 20-25' wide and listed Picea Pungens at 15-20' wide.

I was under the impression P.omorika was a narrower replacement for P.pungens but most sources list P.omorika as a wider spreading plant than pungens.

I know P.pungens ranges from 15-30' wide in my area but what can I expect from P.omorika?

You're on track, disregard Dirr's comment.

Sure be careful but when the large roots are tangled, you'll need to rip thru them or... maybe best try to slowly untangle them - same as with what you would do with a knotted-rope.

I guess it's a matter of learned information in cunjunction with a feeling of common sense. Literally-reiterating it's the same process of forcing hair to become untangles and sometimes it does hurt, lol.

Dax

I would do an outer ring to all of that. Like a staggered row. Don't let anything you really care about hang over the property line. That means the oak and the lindens and ginkgo and all of that... move it in. I'd also line at least one side of the driveway with something to cast shade there and you need some evergreens along the border of the front of the lot for privacy. That's my opinion. Don't do what the red house did though, that's not quite what I'm talking about.
The others here can give you some ideas about what to use.
I also don't see any shrubs on that plan.

You've also got a lot of lindens there. How about some more variety? Lindens attract bees you know. I know people around here go ga ga for bugs but you're going to have a lot of stinging buzzing annoying bees.

I'd never remove any trees of that size. Never.

Anyways, to each, their own

Dax

Here is my latest update...sure I'll continue to tweak but at least most of the selections are made (nothing mail order this go around). Still struggling a bit with the speciman conifer next to the house. I want the red fruit of the crabapple to pop off the backdrop confier (when there isn't any snow). Any suggestions on any plants is appreciated! All plants shown at about 30 year spreads.

{{gwi:846062}}

A = Picea abies
AA = Aesculus 'Autumn Splendor'
AG = Acer griseum (the one plant I took from my old house)
AP = Aesculus Pavia #5
AS = Acer saccharumàâÂÂLegacyâ or âÂÂGreen MountainâÂÂ
BE = Acer negando (existing - cutting down in 2-3 years)
CC = Cercis canadensis #5
CJ = Cercidiphyllum japonicumÃÂ
CK = Cornus kousaÃÂ
CR = Carpinus caroliniana #5
G = Picea glauca var densata
GB = Ginkgo bioblia âÂÂAutumn GoldâÂÂ
GG = Thuja Green Giant
LT = Liriodendron tulipifera
MJ = Magnolia 'Jane'
NS = Nyssa sylvatica #5
O = Picea omorika
OV = Ostrya virginiana #5
P = Picea pungens
PC = Pinus cembra or Abies concolor or Abies koreanea or Picea abies âÂÂCupressinaâ or Picea OrientalisâÂÂAureospicataâÂÂ
PG = Picea glauca (existing - cutting down in 2-3 years)
PP = Asimina triloba
PS = Pinus strobus #5
QB = Quercus bicolorÃÂ #5
QE = Quercus ellipsoidalis #5
S = Pinus strobus #5
ST = Malus âÂÂSugar Tymeâ or âÂÂPrairifireâÂÂ
TA = Tilia amerciana (existing)
TD = Taxodium distichum #5

The perfect conifer: Picea omorika Pevé Tijn.

Dax

Peve Tijn:

I looked at your plan -

Dax

Whass, it's best to purchase deciduous trees during fall when they are changing colors - the non-cultivated forms.

griseum
nyssa - always good
oaks - bicolor can often be brown or brown/yellow or even yellow or orange/red or yellow/orange/red
same with any other species-oaks
etc-

Only a tip.

Dax

another nursery you may want to visit is Rich's Foxwillow Pines Nursery just across the border in Illinois, they are not however inexpensive but carry an excellent selection. Dax can tell you more about them as I think he's visited a number of times.

Marshall

Thanks guys...couple new ideas to ponder.

I really wish I could grow Aesculus turbinata but 5a would really be pushing it.

I'll continue to tweak and post again in a month or two.

Another two options are:
Pinus parviflora Goldylocks
Pinus parviflora Tenysu-kazu

Goldylocks becomes a narrow tree whereas Tenysu-kazu is a squat pyramid.

Check online for a seedling of Aesculus turbinata & A.t. var. pubescens rated to zone 4. There's a nursery selling seedlings for 10 bucks. First page on Google. Or... I'll have seedlings - next fall.

Dax

Found zone 4 rated seedlings from home state! Thanks!

You gotta have a 'lucky' Buckeye!

Take care,

Dax