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dcsteg

Color transformation of 'Chief Joseph'

dcsteg
11 years ago

Beginning 9-27-2012 through 11-19-2012.

9-27-2012.

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10-6-2012.

10-14-2012.

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10-24-2012.

11-7-2012.

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11-19-2012.

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Dave

Comments (57)

  • gardener365
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It came from Coenosium Gardens.

    I think that maybe the drought of summer is good for established contorta rootstock.

    Dax

  • severnside
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My 'Chief' glowing pretty brightly now. By chance the rootstock seems to be pushing so this gives an opportunity to see if it is on contorta before it's removed. Could I get a verdict please? Close up provided.

    Pinus contorta var.latifolia 'Chief Joseph'


    Rootstock - contorta?

    Leader

  • severnside
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Dax, yours is in the wide, wide open so has it been / will it be sun screened or will you see how it fares without? Obviously fine thus far...

  • thedecoguy
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Only a small one,but bursting with colour.

  • toucanjoe
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Nice chief joey guys.

  • firefightergardener
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    A great series of photos Dave, and everyone else. The Chief is certainly a finicky plant, but the color transformation and almost unmatched bright gold color makes this a plant worth trying in almost every temperate climate. Just be prepared for the worst.

    Hopefully Dave doesn't mind us adding to this thread. I'll contribute a five year time lapse, with some seasonal changes sprinkled in.

    Bought in the Winter of 2008-2009, from Bob Fincham, Coenosium Gardens. Probably grafted onto pinus contorta understock.

    2008, Winter.


    2009.

    2010, Spring.

    2010, Summer, full green color. Note the interior needles dying and shedding off. This is a normal trait and a small nitpick many have.

    2010, Autumn.

    2011, early Summer.

    Winter, 2011. The sun lights this beauty on fire.

    Autumn, 2012, on fire again. Sarah prowls the property for moles and shrews.

    -Will

  • gardener365
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Severn,

    Mine had never been screened. It's been in the ground from a one-gallon container since spring of 2008. It did burn though the first couple of years where the outer inch of all the needles were brown throughout the year.

    Looks like Willy has the tallest Chief. Clement's was the largest I had seen, but his died. A big bummer for Clement.

    I'd like to see some of the very largest in cultivation. Will do you have any photos of Fincham's, etc-?

    Dax

  • kbguess
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Lots of nice looking CJs. I have mine under 50% shade cloth this fall. I didn't get it well protected last year & had some tip burn by Thanksgiving. It seems to be doing better this year.

    Keith

  • firefightergardener
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sure Dax, ask and you shall receive.

    Some various 'Chief Joseph' specimens I have encountered during my trips to nurseries and on road trips with Bob.

    First two from Coenosium Gardens.


    The gardens of Jim Boyko. Abies procera 'Sherwoodii' in the foreground.



    A garden who's owners name I cannot remember.

    -Will

  • gardener365
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    SWEET.

    Thank you very much, Will.

    Dax

  • Mark Wasserman
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Speaking of color transformations, anyone have any theories as to why my Chief is still green? It was newly planted this year and we have had several sustained rounds of frost in Chicago. One theory that I am entertaining is that The Chief has been replaced by an impostor.

    (Sorry to follow-up Will's gorgeous photos with such an ugly duckling)

  • firefightergardener
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Unfortunately it's fairly easy for me to conclude, even without the news it hasn't turned gold with cold weather, that it's not 'Chief Joseph', and probably not Pinus contorta at all. If you spent some decent money on it, I'd be taking it back, angrily even, and telling them they sold me an imposter.

    Sorry to break it to you. :/

    -Will

  • dcsteg
    Original Author
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pinus strobus???

    It also has Pine Needle Scale. Chionaspis pinifoliae.

    Dave

  • Mark Wasserman
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Return it I shall...it was about ~$100 from a reputable conifer nursery (it was grafted 5+ years ago, so I thought I was getting a bargain).

    I even asked them about the understock (Sylvestris vs Contorta) when I bought it, so I am kind of surprised.

  • whaas_5a
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Reminds of P. densiflora. Dave how did you identify Pine Needle scale on that plant?

    Just a little baby! An unedited photo from my phone so a bit dull.

    {{gwi:347522}}

  • Mark Wasserman
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Whaas: I think Dave was reacting to the sheen on the needles.

    Truth be told, the sheen is from a recent application of Wilt Stop...which I know is something some folks here don't approve of. I still use the stuff for first year plantings and plants that are particularly susceptible to winter burn (like dwarf Alberta spruce). Doesn't seem to hurt and it's become part of my Autumn routine.

  • dcsteg
    Original Author
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Whaas,

    Look very closely at the needles.

    The adult scales are easily recognized by their white, oyster shell-shaped wax covers, measuring 1/16" to 1/8" long when fully grown. The eggs over-winter beneath the female scale cover.

    This conifer is loaded.

    Hit the link for more info.

    Dave

    Here is a link that might be useful: Pine needle scale

  • dcsteg
    Original Author
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Above the f in chief up to the first limb on left. A close up of that needle cluster above it would be in order to determine if so.

    Dave

  • ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    man dave.. your eyes are better than mine.. i cant see anything to which you refer...

    wasser.. the simple answer.. is your needles are too long ... besides the fact its not yellow ... growing too vigorously [you should note your 6 to 9 inch growth.. to others 3 to 5?:??].. etc ... my first thought.. if it did yellow this winter.. would be sylv aurea.. or densiflora aurea ... i will check mine.. and see what state of color they are in..

    you all want to lure me into buying an 8th CJ ... ?????

    the heck with you all.. its a carp plant ... and the proof is in the pix above ... lol...

    i guess i am going to have to maybe try to find one on contorta .. i wonder if my local guy is not using such ... maybe some rare tree guy can set me up- ...

    ken

  • Mark Wasserman
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Re: P. densiflora.

    The plant just behind Chief Pseudo-Joseph is P. densiflora 'Aurea' on a 3 foot standard. Now that folks mention it...I do see a resemblance.

    I was trying to create a yellow conifer collection to cure the winter blues...oh well, back to the drawing board.

  • whaas_5a
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Whats wrong with the Wilt Pruf/stop?

    I was thinking about using that this year on a few plants.

  • coniferjoy
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wassercom, can you check how many needles are together in one bundle?

    I also would like to see a pic of it's buds for more clarification...

  • monkeytreeboy15
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Dave, is it possible that what you are seeing is a glare on the needles produced from the sun's low angle in the sky..?

    It looks like P. sylvestris to me, but close-ups would be helpful in identification.

    -Sam

  • dcsteg
    Original Author
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I find it amazing that the scale white egg casings cannot be seen on the area mentioned in my above post.

    It's a moot matter anyway since he is going to return it.

    Dave

  • toucanjoe
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I can see what dave is talking about,whitish streaks on the needels,i am wondering if it could be an overspray of anti-dessicant that has dried?

  • Mark Wasserman
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Whaas: I'm not sure that there is anything wrong with Wilt Pruf/Stop, per se, other than the time and expense involved with its application. That being said, there are some folks that feel that it's of limited value in protecting needled evergreens (OTOH the consensus seems to be that it works quite well with certain broadleaf evergreens like rhodies and azaleas). I use it as "insurance" on newly planted specimens and species that have suffered from winter burn in previous years. That being said, you have to be very careful applying it to certain species before they have gone fully dormant for the winter, specifically arborvitae, cypress and juniper. I generally avoid its use with these conifers entirely.

    Edwin: I'm in Indiana for the holiday (something about Dutch immigrants to the New World), so I can't take any current photos. However, the following are shots that I took at the time of purchase (late March) and when it was pushing new growth in April.

    Interestingly, last year's needles were much shorter...perhaps I've been using nuclear fertilizer?

  • firefightergardener
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Not an expert here, but I'll go as confidently as I can, Pinus sylvestris.

  • coniferjoy
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The same for me...

  • Mark Wasserman
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    $100 for a plain Sylvester pine...reminds me of some of my investments in the U.S. stock market.

    Back to the nursery it goes...thanks for the I.D.

  • whaas_5a
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Maybe they snipped the CJ part off back in the day, lol. Then it proves it was on syvestris.

  • firefightergardener
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Actually, Will's suggestion is probably dead on. Many nurseries(and growers) cannot tell or don't look to make sure they aren't pruning the wrong tree. It's quite possible someone pruned the 'Chief Joseph' graft right off long ago or it died off. Generally though, good nurseries will provide a finished product - without the original grafted plant showing, so this mistake isn't possible. In your case, it's at least a case for some leniency with the nursery - it IS possible it's not their fault.

    -Will

  • severnside
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pinus sylvestris 'Chantry Blue'? Minus the blue but the needles are similar to Chantry's strobus slenderness.

  • Mark Wasserman
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm pretty sure the owner of the nursery did the grafting himself, because he remembered the understock that was used. I called in advance asking for CJ trees and it took them a while to find this one...so I suspect it was indeed sitting in a far corner of the nursery for quite some time.

    Ken: BloomRiver occaisionally has CJ with the contorta understock for under $100. But they get snapped up pretty quickly.

  • brentm
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    A few notes from many years of observing Chief, I'm sure many of you know a good amount of this, but hopefully something new...

    Color-
    As on most yellow conifers, color intensity and degree of burning will be related to several factors, most important of which are:

    -Temperature - extreme low winter temperatures will intensify color (especially for 2 and 3-needle pines)

    -Wind - and overall desiccation stress (roots and needles) will intensify color (spruce, pine and fir, etc.)

    -Timing - as in the case with 'Chief Joseph' - most intense in the winter and early spring, least intense in the late summer/early fall (many yellow flush conifers are only yellow/gold in spring, many winter-yellow pines are most gold in winter)

    -Plant health= more intense color), nutrient deficiencies (in tissue or soil)

    When growing 'Chief Joseph' I have found very little differences between graft take percentage on Pinus contorta var. Latifolia, Pinus contorta var. Murrayana, and Pinus sylvestris (note, I have not tested Pinus contorta var. Contorta due to poor hardiness) - all have worked well over the years - our best take % has been around 75%, doing 188 grafts, 100 on Pinus contorta var. Murrayana and 88 on Pinus sylvestris we achieved about 80% in 2011. Prior to that, we had a graft take rate of 15-50% on 'Chief Joseph.' When you compare this to a graft take I get acros the board of 90-95% (95-100% on easy to grow varieties), yes, it is bad - and everyone I have spoken to has had similar experiences - some have had complete graft failures with large numbers. As such, the plant has remained expensive, difficult to find, and few choice specimens exist.

    What I have found over the past 2 years, however, is that plant health and overall performance during at least the young years is drastically improved if a single branch from the understock is maintained. As such, we cut back, but do not completely remove understock. This is the same procedure I have adopted with many of the sensitive/variegated Pinus parviflora varieties. This is not to say that if you remove the understock completely following graft healing that your plant will always be worse, these are just general observations with the aim toward growing a healthier plant.

    A 'Chief Joseph' with understock still on is green in summer, then color intensifies as shown above. When compared to a "stressed" plant without understock, the young plants look healthy green in summer, but brilliant gold in winter.

    When should the understock be removed? I'm not sure, but would recommend. If you want the brightest yellow, but potentially burnt plant with shorted growth, remove after wound healing, if you want a more vigorous tree from the start, then after a few years in the ground.


    Left, 3-year plant with shorter needles, shorter annual growth, more susceptible to burn. Right, understock still attached, longer needles, longer growth.

  • coniferjoy
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Also this story I heard in person a little while ago...
    Thanks Brent for this useable info!

  • maple_grove_gw
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Brent,

    I recently got a young 'Chief Joseph' which still has part of the understock attached, but it's just a stem with no foliage. Do you think it would have any beneficial effect to leave it on, even though there's no foliage?

    Alex

  • severnside
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Great info! I'm going to leave my understock on.

  • brentm
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Alex-

    Unless there's a viable bud - there's no need to leave the understock stub on. Without growth/foliage on the understock it will not be able to benefit the grafted portion.

    -Brent

  • maple_grove_gw
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks, Brent. It looks like, in this case, the understock is being used primarily as an in situ stake. Actually, the reason I asked, and maybe I should have stated in the previous post, is I know I've read before that leaving the understock on for a few years, even if it does not have foliage, can benefit small grafts as the understock can continue to feed the roots. I don't quite understand how this would work though and I also forget the context, although I'm sure it was not about 'Chief Joseph'.

    Can anyone explain this, and maybe when it would be helpful to leave the understock on without foliage?

    Sorry if this is off-topic...

  • dcsteg
    Original Author
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Its been off topic since wassercom jumped in on 11-24.

    Should have been a separate post.

    Going a bit farther I can understand as this cultivar is very hard to establish on home turf. Most can't grow it successfully and want to know why. There are many opinions as to why. Some valid some worthless.

    Several valid points for success. Make sure it's grown on contorta under stock. Afford some protection from winter sun and drying winds. In growing season it needs full sun. No partial shade for this one. It is also a drought tolerant cultivar. Just take care not to over water and that it's planted in well-drained soil. Good to Zone 5a.

    Hope this helps.

    Dave

  • poopsko
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    great thread and pics. Will, mentioning the needle drop.....it seems that during the end of the summer my CJ will only have one years growth of needles. Dropping during spring and summer (seems like 2 sheddings) Is that the norm for this ? Mine is in ground 3 years.

  • dcsteg
    Original Author
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I am friends with a very knowledgeable conifer collector here in town. In fact he is a past president of ACS.

    His latest take on this cultivar I will post here for all to see.

    The 'Chief Joseph' at ++++++ Gardens expired about a year or two ago. I have lost two and the word around the conifer world is that is tough to grow well in our climate - heat and humidity. The one we planted in my Portland son's garden is doing very well as are all of them in Oregon. I don't remember the name of the propagator that Larry gets them from. I have been to his place, with Larry, in Sandy OR, and have met him. He had hundreds of Chief Josephs in all sizes - a sea of gold - so his success rate is good but in that climate everything does well. He doesn't have a nursery , he is just a propagator and sells conifers wholesale to the nursery people. I plan to be in Oregon for Christmas and I, very likely, will see Larry and will get his name . As I remember he is a rather "unusual old duck". We felt he was trying to corner the market for Chief Joseph and we had to use some special tactics to get the one for ******.

  • monkeytreeboy15
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    'Chief Joseph' today

    What has your specimen looked like recently, Dave?

    -Sam

  • dcsteg
    Original Author
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sam,

    As of today 12-8-2012. In shade with no photo editing.

    We really have not had any cold weather yet. It is suppose to drop to the lower teens the first of the week.

    This could put more yellow into the foliage.

    If so I will post one more.

    Dave

  • clement_2006
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago


    Mine still alive.
    Clement

  • dcsteg
    Original Author
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Clement

    Yours is typical of all those I see grafted to sylvestris under stock. If exposed to hot and humid conditions that only adds to the problem. I am not sure about your climate. It could be a non factor and just the sylvestris culprit at work here.

    They only retain one year of growth and eventually loose that as yours is doing.

    I would take the remaining good growth and graft that on to contorta under stock. Just a thought...what have you to loose. I am sure you have the means to do that.

    Dave

  • monkeytreeboy15
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    'Chief Joseph' on New Year's Day!

    -Sam

  • Simoni
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    And now the transformation to white:

    L+M S

  • severnside
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Looks like we have the same snow Simoni...

  • ladylotus
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Chief Joseph is really gorgeous. I like all the transformation in color shown in this thread.

    How hardy do you think this plant is? I know that it can burn easily...other than that is it pretty hardy?