Hi Osprey - Yep, there's a lot of confusion about with these!

True Pinus strobiformis Engelm., as described by George Engelmann in 1848, is a Mexican endemic, Chihuahua south to Jalisco. The type specimen was collected at Cusihuirachic in southern Chihuahua (about 90km southwest of Chihuahua City)

Pinus ayacahuite var. brachyptera G.R.Shaw (1909) is a nomenclatural synonym of P. strobiformis - the name is based on the same type specimen, with Shaw citing Engelmann's name in his publication. So the two are one and the same, down to the individual tree; their treatment as different in Perry's Pines of Mexico is incorrect.

Pinus reflexa (Engelmann) Engelmann, a.k.a. Pinus flexilis var. reflexa Engelmann, is what you have in NM and AZ; Sudworth (and the US Forest Service following him) also call it "Pinus strobiformis", but it is not the same as Engelmann's Pinus strobiformis, differing in smaller cones with less prolonged scales, and needles with serration weakly defined and only on the outer half of the needle (fully serrated in P. strobiformis). It may well be a natural hybrid (area of hybrid introgression) between P. strobiformis and P. flexilis. This is very likely what Forest Farm are selling (but you could always ask them where their seed is from!). Note also the cultivar 'Vanderwolf's Pyramid' belongs here.

Pinus flexilis - CO, UT, NV, northwards - has even smaller cones, and smooth needles with no serration at all.

If you want true P. strobiformis, you'll probably have to go to Mexico and collect your own.

Pics of the cones of all of them at the link below

Resin

Here is a link that might be useful: white pine cones (scroll a quarter of the way down)

Thank you once again resin, now it makes sence. I always was confused by those three species. I also think that what forestfarm sells is the pinus flexilis var.reflexa (or pinus reflexa). Still, I will ask them. I saw the pictures, and they also have quite big cones. I will see if I get this one, any other recomendation for pines with big cones, or extra long leaves.

osprey

Recent rapd's and isozyme analysis of strobiformis, reflexa and ayachuite and flexis show that the first three are the same species and flexis is seperate species.

You have to understand the evironmental of the south west. The first three poluations were reletively recently seperated, at the end of the last major ice age. During the ice age they were a contiguous population as temperature warmed the reminant populations were driven to higher altitudes and have been segregated on mountain tops at where they have been in breeding for the last say 10,000 years.

Back to the same question, is it a way you can ID the tree based on a pic they have now. What I really want is to have a pine that will have long cones. The link is

http://www.forestfarm.com/search/closeup.asp?PlantID=pist425

Hi Osprey,

Maybe ask them if the tree they graft from produces cones, and if so, how long they are. It is most likely to be a US origin rather than Mexican, so I'd expect a cone size of somewhere between 12-24cm long. They get longer the further south you go in Mexico, with 50cm cones (some claim even 60cm) reported in Jalisco.

Resin

Recent rapd's and isozyme analysis of strobiformis, reflexa and ayachuite and flexis show that the first three are the same species and flexis is seperate species.

Do you have the reference of the article, please?

Talk about reviving an ancient thread, but ospreynm did you ever find out what forestfarm was selling as Pinus strobiformis?

I have one of of these FF plants. They aren't grafted for one thing. Mine will be planted this fall. In the meantime on my deck it has seen 95F (35 C) temps and sun except at high noon. It still grew 8 inches over the last 6 weeks! I can't imagine how well this will do in the ground here in Albuquerque, NM. This looks like a great substitute for the Euro pines that are too-often planted in the arid SW USA. No offense Resin.