Yes you could although it would be an ongoing project, if not an ongoing struggle. Apical dominance is a strong trait and this one eventually really wants to grow up. I am trying a simliar thing with 'Gold Cascade' but the plant is still fairly small, the apical dominance hasn't really asserted itself yet and I am already losing patience. I think that I will just move it to a more appropriate location.

This is 3 years old and needs to be pruned back. Any suggestions. It is about 15 feet tall. It has grown about 4 feet a year.

As I mentioned previously (December 2017) I think there is a longtime and widespread problem with dwarf conifer cultivars growing out of character because of having been grafted on seedling rootstocks of normal vigor. The reverse of grafting flowering or fruit trees onto small and weak growing rootstocks to dwarf the tops. With occurrences like a plant collector friend ending up with two 18' tall Chamaecyparis obtusa 'Nana Lutea' some years ago being examples.

I’m sure this is an elementary question that exposes my ignorance, but here goes:
If the dwarf was a naturally occurring mutation, then why does it have to be grafted onto other rootstock? Could it just be cloned? Or are these “brooms” with no rootstock of their own?

In order to produce more plants you take a cutting , it has to go some where...rooting is hit & miss with some plants . Grafting is more positive but more costly . Chemical cloning is not that far advanced...but I understand they are making advances .

they are all cloning

ron

And to answer the last question , first...

these witchs brooms , or sports are mutations found growing on existing plants

they have to be removed in order to produce more clones

ron

Dwarf or other variants can also originate as seedlings. But in this case it has been stated that the basis for the cultivar was a yellow branch on a blue variety.

Fascinating. Thanks, everyone.

This was likely a random seedling:

Cedrus deodara 'MonKinn'

Thus explaining the use of the somewhat curious combination "whole plant mutation" in the patent description. If it was actually a random spontaneous seedling it may not even have anything to do with the blue variety - other than them both being the same species.

Exactly. And that language is from the grower - never heard that before.

I also planted one of these beauties in my back yard this fall. I’m totally willing to prune it as it matures, just hope I picked a reasonable spot.

Picture the example in the photo preceding yours in your planting spot - apparently it is not going to fit without being cut back on a routine basis.

Seems like it’ll fit to me with a bit of pruning, but only time will tell. I have a nice pair of Tobisho SR-1’s so what ever excuse I can make to use them :)

Looks like the one in that last shot - said to be 15' tall - is nearly as wide as it is tall. And it hasn't of course stopped growing.

Yes, but if you look at @Sara Malone Zone 9b's specimen its fairly tall and narrowish. I'm guessing she does prune it from time to time?

How maintenance pruning conifers to fit into too small spaces usually ends up is with the plants starting to look like topiary - or worse. And then either becoming malingering goofy landscape features or being removed sooner or later as a result of how they have come to look. And/or how big they have managed to get, even with the barbering.

That said as alluded to previously it is possible with Cedrus to prune these selectively to control size when a body understands how to do this. But even then there is likely to be a limit to how long a genetically programmed tree can be kept as a bush.

No disagreement there, but I’m not interested in keeping it as a bush. I want it to be a nice tall specimen, I’d just like to keep its width within a reasonable diameter. Even then, I wouldn’t be opposed to limbing it up a bit to save space, if my neighbor didn’t mind a little bit of overhang on their property. At that point I can determine whether it stays or I’ll be calling a tree removal service. Would hate to do so but I like keeping a friendly relationship with my neighbors as well.

I’ve never pruned mine. But I am a manner of the Aesthetic Pruners Association and they routinely prune conifers for years, sometimes decades. Some look artificially manipulated but by no means all of them.

I’m not interested in keeping it as a bush

It's going to have to be kept small to fit in that space.

I wouldn’t be opposed to limbing it up a bit

Why deliberately create a future situation where a purchased specimen is made to look homely? Instead of having achieved an impressive state of character development and size? Like it could do if you put it where it had enough room?

Pretty simple answer to that: I like the look of a deodar cedar, but don’t have the room for the full size specimen.

Alright, how much spacing should be allotted for this tree? Now I’m contemplating moving it for the third time. I’d like to get it right.

No one really knows for sure, since it's a new variety, but you can see that it gets at least 15' wide without pruning, and I'm sure its got plenty more growth to go. You can prune it back, I've seen several deodar cedars in my neighborhood that have their width under control. Whether you want to do that, or like the look is a different topic.

Of all conifers, cedars are some of the easiest to prune. They are very forgiving. They are also reasonably easy to transplant successfully.

Thats good news for me since I don't mind pruning even if it's semi annually. @Sara Malone Zone 9b does deodar cedar back bud on old growth, or is it like Leyland Cypress and Thuja Occidentalis where once you cut back past the foliage its game over?

Ok, will plan for at least 15’ footprint and will need to move this thing again. I probably won’t prune, but Tom Cox and John Ruter’s manual, Landscaping with Conifers and Ginkgo for the Southeast, says that Cedrus is randomly branching, not whorled, “and tends to have multiple growth spurts during the year and latent buds along the stem that will be induced to grow when the shoot is pruned”. So I guess that means you can cut into old growth?

Won't bud from old wood but will bud aggresssively from new wood. Well, call it assertively rather than aggressively. The point is that you have choices once it buds out post-pruning. Around here most cedars push twice a year, which also helps them recover from pruning.

Hey everyone, for those of you wondering what Feelin' Blue looks like when it matures it certainly isn't low and spreading either. It gets big: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWw-KHbyC1E&lc=UgxlJypvYxkOKyGxN214AaABAg.9KB_cYYN8UV9KCHQ2V2NCX

Again propagation method used and whether or not it involves grafting onto seedling stock of normal vigor appears to have a big impact on scion size development. But to test this expectation it would be necessary to find out the propagation history of a large number of individual specimens of a given variety to see if there was in fact a consistent pattern present.

Or ask someone who has propagated it.

So here is what the person said about their large Feelin' Blue:

"It was planted in 2011 or a year later maybe - as a shrubby weeping plant, roughly 30 cm tall (or one foot). It is now somewhere between 4-5m tall I guess. But the thing is; it grew like crazy in it's first few years then it kind of stopped gaining height. Now it looks pretty much the same for quite some time - slowly adding mass and pronouncing the top lean. This one definitely more like a semi-dwarf? A giant dwarf? ;) For a while it showed more vigor than regular deodars - but now it has really stopped.. Just gaining on the presence. I have another one much younger and that one has much much slower growth rate for now.. We'll see."

So in 8-9 years the plant went from one foot to around 15 feet and capped out there, just getting fuller in the following years. It's too early to say what Feelin' Sunny (MonKinn) will do, but there's good chance it will cap out at a much lower height than a typical deodar cedar.

Point is we can't judge how big this variety will get based on how vigorous it's growing in its first few (10ish) years.

Individual anecdotes including what one grower thinks they have seen do not a data set of reliable general applicability make.

And trees do not "cap out" unless something has happened to them to make them stunted or dying back. Even the very tops of the tallest redwoods continue to progress upward every year. With failure of these towering trees to grow permanently beyond a predetermined limit apparently being caused by an inability to "pump" water beyond that height. So that a routine seen with the Stratosphere Giant for instance which is located in a comparatively dry area being a continuing cycle of sending new shoots up during favorable years only to have these die back when a drier summer is experienced. So that the mathematical averaging of the height present when progression upward has been retained and how tall it is after the very tip top of the tree has receded results in a particular maximum height being maintained.

Must everything be so literal with you? Clearly the tree keeps growing. There is just more emphasis in width than height at this point, but these are plants. Plants are like humans, even two of the same variety can behave differently. I’m simply providing some context for people.

Thanks, everyone, for good info on a somewhat mysterious topic. It’s frustrating to me that a company as omnipresent as Monrovia doesn’t trial their plants better. I mean, what’s the likelihood that the guy in the video got the only Feelin’ Blue that grows out of character? I understand that Nature doesn’t follow a rule book, but I hate sinking resources into plants that must be set back with constant transplants. Come to think of it, another Monrovia plant, Chamaecyparis “Gold Mop” is marketed as maturing at 5 feet. It can go 8 or 9, easy. That’s ridiculous, and there are other examples. I wonder if Monrovia knows exactly what they’re doing, and it’s just easier to market a smaller plant to today’s smaller yards.

maturing = 10yrs.

FWIW, my comical misspelling aside...I think it's generally accepted by serious horticulturalists that the after-planting pruning of vegetatively propagated trees (or even seed grown ones) can and should influence their shape with respect to overcoming the side effects of propagation and/or secondary flushes of growth : https://www.houzz.com/discussions/4977109/we-agree-some-cutting-grown-trees-need-aggressive-waterspout-control

That being said I have only one Cedrus, a 'Shalimar', and it is one of the minority of cutting grown plants I have that never needed any help growing upright with one leader. (assuming that is what I want - I don't prune my rhodies that way, and I haven't historically pruned my camellias that way, but plan to in the future, since they show no signs of stopping at being shrubs!) My cutting grown Thujopsis, for example, has gotten a few snips to keep it from remaining a blob, and that seems to have encouraged it to start growing with a single leader.

Not exactly what I was looking for a but a start for finding 'academic' documentation of this and related issues: https://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/olympia/silv/publications/notopt/558_ClineHarrington2007.pdf

Is it just me or does this variety have the same exact growth habit as "Gold Horizon"?

Hello. I just purchased one of these in a 5 gallon container. It appears to be growing outward and not upright, which is what I want. Will it naturally establish a leader, or do I need to train it to grow upright? Most of the photos on here are exactly what I am looking for. Thank you.

I bought 2 Sunny Cedars from Lowes the tag said 8-10ft. They are going on 3 years old and are 14-16ft tall. One is slimmer than the other (less sun). These were planted as anchor plants near the corners of the house. They seem like they will just keep getting bigger, should I transplant them somewhere else? They look okay right now but if they get any bigger it would just look silly. Mine looks about like Sara Malones. Maybe I could prune it?

I have what I am pretty sure is a Feelin Sunny, planted 4.5 years ago, 6 feet from a sidewalk and under an old oak canopy. (Turns out it was mislabeled as a Feelin Blue by Monrovia and sent to the nursery where i purchased it in Southern Cali.) This stunning tree is happily 12ft tall and wide, now encroaching on the sidewalk, and shows no sign of stopping. So much for 8 - 10 ft max, ha, ha! I don’t want to pull it out if I can help it, so… I contacted Monrovia directly with pics and learned from a managing rep that they are very aware of the problem with this variety bolting beyond its so called ”dwarf” status (Feelin Blue is supposedly more likely to behave). The rep estimated this tree SHOULD max out at 15-20ft tall BUT she couldn’t say for sure as she has never seen one to maturity (customers who complain end up pulling them out due to space constraints). She suggested: 1. pruning 3-4 of the longest, lowest branches at the trunk, 2. and/or pruning in some of the lower branches where they fork to keep it narrow-ish. She also said you can top the vertical leader to discourage height and encourage width, but this is ideally done when the plant is under 1 year old other otherwise you may end up with a very weird shape. BTW - She did offer me a credit towards a replacement plant if I do decide to pull it out. <Sigh!>

Here she is 4.5 years old. Never pruned.

Very nice. where are you located?

So pretty though.

I would limb it up and just enjoy the canopy it produces in time.

I was also told that its too late for me to try to transplant it.

We are in Los Angeles. Problem is, we have maybe another 10 ft max and it might start to hit the neighbor’s oak canopy. My fingers are crossed we won’t get there. :-)

Chris: thank you, yes we may just try that. Brandy: thank you, we have become quite attached to it.

Here is ours after a couple years since planted. Its definitely a highlight in our garden:

They are beautiful but I just had to remove one of my two days ago and I'm pretty sad about it.

Chris: gorgeous!

Brandy: Oh no, why? had it gotten too big?