Well, I like to argue...welcome to the thunderdome! Haha.

DNA is either unique or it isn't. In the case of clones, it isn't. Unique DNA being sufficiently preserved is all we care about. Conservation is the job of arboreta and conservation bodies, not home gardeners. Remember, the whole reason it took a long time (fast compared to the Chinese though!) for Wollemi to come into trade is that every botanical garden around the world that could possibly grow it had to get first priority with the cloned plants. The fact possibly hundreds of Joe Schmoe gardeners in the South and Midwest who were duped by National Geographic into buying one, only to have it die, is only a tragedy for their bank accounts, not for the preservation of the Wollemia. (Of course the irony is the Nat. Geo. sales spiel went something like "help preserve a rare plant" but that was only because some piddling proceeds allegedly went to saving the grove in NSW...not that that your garden would ever contain the last specimen on Earth!) So, your argument about clones is totally specious, unless various horticultural entities and the Mexican state are not doing enough to preserve it. I don't know if they are or not, but that's not SCpalmnut's problem. (And of course the Wollemi is technically even "rarer" than this pine, because it's down to a single clone) You can criticize him for being a fool to waste time on something that will die, but don't act like he's the next Monsanto wrecking global environmental destruction for a desire to have a rare plant in his garden.

As for seedlings...a similar logic applies. If cones are incredibly rare to come by, the Mexican authorities should only distribute them to botanical gardens. SCpalmnut implies - I suppose - he was going to buy it from a nursery somewhere. Not that he was going to travel to Mexico to smuggle them back to his garden. In fact if he buys seed from a cultivated tree in an arboretum, a case could be made that it _might_ be genetically "contaminated" by hybridization or inbreeding and is best _removed_ from the collection. You see how you completely ignored many subtleties in the rush to seem righteous? There were so many unknowns that should have stopped you from launching your attack. Don't worry, you're not alone in having this problem.

As to the long term survival in any given garden, I admit you cleverly tried to twist my logic. Congratulations, you could find employment as a political pundit. Now I will untwist your hatchet job and prove you wrong. My point about Santa Barbara was just that anyone taking a serious conservation approach, even in a "wrong climate" is almost certainly doing a better job than someone taking a less serious approach somewhere else. This was more in defense of Salicaceae than scpalmnut, because he doesn't sound like someone taking a serious approach to conservation, he sounds like a misguided dreamer. Climate is only one part of whether a rare plant gets preserved. Salicaceae grafts things he knows won't make it in his humid Florida garden -- and he wouldn't bother even with that if he knew something would not grow at all. In any case that's taking a serious lifelong approach. Some bobo in LA could read "oh this poor rare pine", plant one that would grow alright, and in 3 years be more interested in fiber optic macrame, forget to water it and have it die. If it was seed grown, yes, that DNA is gone forever. Meanwhile, Salicaceae grafted it into another pine that doesn't mind conditions in Florida. (this is hypothetically assume it's hardy enough for his location, maybe it isn't) Hence, the Florida collector has saved the DNA that was wasted by someone in the "appropriate" climate. Again, the point is climate is only one aspect of whether rare DNA is being "wasted" or not.

The biggest issue, of course, is the Occam's razor obviousness of "hardly anybody actually does this anyhow." You make some ridiculous assumption that this is actually a problem the natural world is having to deal with. Other than the stupid Wollemi, there's no epidemic of people inappropriate climates "wasting" DNA of truly vulnerable rare plants. (and as I pointed out, that's not even wasting with Wollemia because it's thousands of copies of the same genome) If that's your criteria, botanical gardens are just as guilty of it. Kew has "wasted" the DNA of their Jubaea chilensis in the temperate house. (all horticultural palms are unique AFAIK: a handful of dates are tissue cultured) They could have removed it a few years ago when it was doomed to hit the ceiling (during a renovation) but they didn't. They could have moved it to a Cornish garden; instead soon it will have to be killed. Waste. Some people do smuggle rare cycads; but of course nobody is going to spend $1000, risk jail time, etc. for something they know they probably can't grow.
(an amusing aspect of the UB Berkeley garden are the beds that are behind barbed wire fence and security cameras, that are growing very rare cycads that were confiscated from a smuggler)

A far fetched possibility about Wollemi that I entertained ages ago on these boards was whether spreading it all over the world actually gave more chances for pathogens to evolve to destroy it. This actually happened with the potato. Once a blight evolved in one place, movement of people and their potatoes spread it around the globe. Because the clones had been through a genetic bottleneck. They had to go back to the original native range of the potato to find the genetic diversity to overcome it. With Wollemia, there is no diversity. BUT Australia is very careful, supposedly, about allowing plant pathogens in. Going so far as to force people to clean their shoes after deboarding airplanes. (IIRC I read that...could be wrong) So, it's an unlikely supposition but they are wisely keeping the location of the grove a secret. In the big picture this is more of a plant pathogens management issue than a plant genetics issue, but it's still a more clear and present danger than the mere isolated fool planting something that will quickly die. It's actually happened for one thing, while there's not even an anecdote of your scenario. So it's a valid point you actually could have made - if you'd been me HAHAHAHAHA.

As a concrete example, take the situation of Monkey Puzzle on the east coast. I know upscale nurseries have sold those since I was a little kid, yet they are scarce as hen's teeth in gardens, public or private. Clearly scores of them have died...mostly in summer because they hate our heat & humidity. They were probably grown from cultivated tree seed in the PNW, that would otherwise have just ended up in a compost heap in the PNW. Yet, through these years of failures, it would seem (I suspect, but cannot prove) that a few strains have been identified that can survive Eastern conditions. Of course there are huge practical problems like the fact they are geographically disparate...moving pollen from one to another would be quite an ordeal and will probably never happen. But had pioneers not tried to grow them, this clone of "humid surviving monkey puzzle" would never have been selected. Is it is a net positive for the species? Perhaps in a very small way. People who live in the East Coast and don't travel will have a chance to see a really weird looking tree they otherwise would not get to see. Maybe they will become more interested in conservation because of it, and donate money to a Chilean land trust or whatnot. No more hypothetical than your doomsday "DNA is lost" scenario. Notable, none of Eastern trees are growing in what I'd call "primarily horticultural" collections. A zoo is a zoo, the Barnes is an art museum with some rare trees outside. It's hardly large enough to merit being an arboretum. There are trees in private gardens in Maryland. So if we were only relying on official botanical collections like the National Arboretum, there would be no hope of growing these on the East Coast at this point. They would have been completely written off. Foolish experimentation produced a beneficial outcome.

That's a semi-unusual plant...not threatened but doesn't have a huge geographic range either. The same would apply to certain far rarer plants. If Cathayas in China are surrounded by hundreds of miles of rice patties, their seeds don't have any way to escape except by man made migration anyhow. Once again, unless there were a collector's market for them, their DNA would just get "wasted" being pulled up by Chinese farmers as another weed. The collector's market - properly managed with legally enforceable rules preventing excess harvesting - is, even inclusive of a handful of fools who plant things that aren't going to survive for them, clearly a net positive, not a net negative.

I should have said something like "clade" instead of clone. I was talking about a group of monkey puzzles that survive in the east, not a single clone. 2 trees in MD, the Barnes in Philly, and now the new one in Norfolk. There was supposedly a large tree at a sort of stately home in Wilmington, Delaware, that was cut down by a moronic landscaper for "not looking English enough!" Which has become my personal favorite anecdote for summing up how stupid many people in the so-called field of "landscape architecture" are.

"There was supposedly a large [Monkey-puzzle] at a sort of stately home in Wilmington, Delaware, that was cut down by a moronic landscaper for "not looking English enough!""

Particularly as there's one (or more) in almost every English stately home garden!

Resin

"Regarding the longleaf pine, you're talking about Pinus palustris right? It occurs naturally in south-eastern Virginia, growing it anywhere in Maryland doesn't seem like much of a stretch."

Are you saying beng's two longleaf pines are pretty much doomed to decline and very short lives (I've heard wild ones in good environments can live 500+ years) what a shame.

Once again, fallacies and hectoring rhetoric. Beng's location is one of many in western Maryland. You dismissed all of Maryland as being hardly different than SE Virginia. My point was simply some parts of it (but not necessarily's Beng's) are very different. Spanish Moss has its northern limit in isolated parts of coastal SE VA. It's quite mild and distinct from the rest of the climate of VA, MD, DC, & DE.

Your book starts with the assumption that I said "unique" DNA, that would only be in the case of seedlings, I said "rare", there's a big difference...talk about using a politician's argument...since you started your soliloquy with a false premise there's no need for me to dispute the rest of it...

Thank you, by once again trying to attack, you've actually set yourself back. It was _me_ who made the distinction between rare and unique, because that is the difference between a clone and a seedling that you had NOT made clear. And in fact had used to further obfuscate. I pointed out that your doomsday scenarios involving either clones OR seedlings were both paper tigers.
There...that's the cliff's note version for people who understandably don't want to wade through this thread again.
To conclude: I won.

Won what, total ridicule and contempt from anyone with a logical bone in their body? I didn't know this thread was a contest. You must live a very sad and boring life...let me guess, everyone on your school soccer team got a trophy whether they won or lost, right? I'm all for boosting self-esteem, but for your sake seek therapy from a professional not a forum on conifers...

Somewhere I have a picture of a Pinus palustris growing in Tacoma, Washington... guess I better try to dig that one up.

"HAHAHAHAHA"

Definitely seek therapy, here's hoping you're able to work out all your issues. Whether it's psychological or spiritual get help as soon as you can. Before you accuse me of "attacking" you again I'm being 100% serious, the tone of your screed shows very disturbing patterns, I wouldn't be surprised if you're blind to them.

On a happier note, here's a wiki commons photo of a Maxipinion specimen at the U.C. Berkeley Botanical Gardens, one of my favorite collections in the world. The Bay Area Carnivorous Plant Society held our meetings there once a year when I was VP. I donated plants to their carnivorous collection, and happily received some very rare ant plants in return.:

It's believable Ian. I was surprised to find records of them growing in Northern Ireland and Scotland of all places! Very slowly, though, I bet. The ones in SE PA might look straggly because of snow loads.

As I've said before, far fewer temperate or subtropical plants need a warm summer as need a cool summer.

I don't know, diversity tends to go up as the climate gets hotter.

"As I've said before, far fewer temperate or subtropical plants need a warm summer as need a cool summer."

What statistics or scientific evidence are you basing this statement on? It seems patently false on the face of it (great instincts bboy), but before I refute it I'd love to read your proof backing it up.

Lastest fracas laid to rest here, if anyone didn't follow it.

"It's believable Ian. I was surprised to find records of them growing in Northern Ireland and Scotland of all places! Very slowly, though, I bet"

If that's Pinus palustris you're referring to, no, there aren't. There's one or two really struggling specimens in the warmest parts of southeast England, but none in Scotland, and a group of three reported in Ireland (Republic, not Northern) proved to be misidentified.

Resin

davidrt28, from my observations, direct cold doesn't seem to bother the Longleafs. No terminal bud death & only slight needle-burn from the worst winters so far (I also have a healthy pond pine that is labeled as only zone8 hardy).

However, wet snow or ice may eventually be their undoing (the extremely long needles). They survived w/no problem the record 36" single snowstorm here in Feb 2011, but that was relatively dry snow.

Thanks beng. I feel like the couple I've seen north of the native range (SE VA) are not the tall, full specimens seen in the south. A relative of mine had one in his garden in Norfolk that was lovely...I'm not sure I'd say it of any I've seen north of there, which are spindly or squat. (Vienna, VA; Newark, DE as I already mentioned; south of Trenton NJ; etc. I can't remember whether I've seen the one at Longwood.) I'm not sure what the reason is but a combination of things seems logical.

Resin: thanks for sorting me out. I found what I thought were records for Pinus palustris at the RBGE multisite search.

davidrt28 Pinus palustrus is not commonly planted anywhere near as much as Pinus taeda here in TN. In Jan. of 1985 most of mid TN experienced historic low temps. Officially -17F-27C to-28F33C. Most of the P taeda foliage at least discolored and a lot just turned brown. There was no loss of bud or wood though, and new growth was normal. P palustrus was almost pristine. In fact, they were about the ONLY green that winter save Ilex opaca. In 1985 I won the lottery here with -28F33C but I had no P palustrus. I now have two, about 20 years old. They have both gone through -21F-29C with no damage. The species is native up into the high elevations of northern AL in the mountain form. I heard that unofficially northern AL just south of the TN line dropped to -30F-34C in '85.

We have ours in a pot. Bought at Cistus several years ago and during the warm months we keep it outside. It just motors along. The color is beautiful. We also grow Pinus palustrus and they are now about 12'. Have lost one but the others seem to be doing well. Wonderful tree.

Ask a simple question and forty plus responses later, none have answered the original question but at this point enough is enough. I guess I should have worded my original question differently by emphasizing that yes I was aware that his tree would not be winter hardy outside but that I did fully intend to provide it with the utmost in cold protection to possibly increase the odds that it would survive.
Now to respond to floramakros, no I do not get my jollies by deliberately killing innocent rare plants. While I do have quite a few connections that allow me access to some rare material, most of the stuff I buy and normally I only have one single plant, not an entire greenhouse of " captive guinea pigs " from which I can just go grab another to continue my evil experiments with. If a plant dies, it is gone from my collection and a financial loss is incurred so I lose twice.
Floramakros, if you aren't into experimenting or pushing boundaries, that's fine but don't vilify those of us that are. If I didn't push the envelope or listened to everyone that said , " Oh, that won't grow where you are" , then I probably wouldn't be successfully growing Araucaria angustifolia, Nageia nagi, Cathaya argyrophylla, and Pinus patula all outside and in the ground.
Being that I only have an acre to play with here, it is no big deal for me to wrap plants, string Christmas lights, or run propane heaters to get my most tender plants through the tough times, which may only be a few nights a year.
Lastly I would like to say, your lack of using common respect while posting has made your posts less than stellar. Who are you to be referring to me as a "troll" when you know nothing about me other than your preconceived notions that I am some serial plant killer? There are plenty of people who participate on this board that " know their stuff" whether it be self taught or through years of university study and then there are those that are just the casual gardener with real life experiences. You might be wise to err on the side of caution and address everyone with dignity regardless of whether you agree with them or not.

"Yes, I am well aware that this pine will not be hardy planted outside without protection in my climate but I intend to do so."

I interpreted this sentence as you stating you intended to plant it outside without protection, hence the misunderstanding. Hopefully if you reread your sentence you can understand why I did. Everyone else from their comments (whether pro or con) did the same. I only wish you had clarified it sooner. I'm glad to hear you plan on protecting this rare beauty during the winter, but again I should warn you your summer humidity will most likely spell its end. Of course it's totally your choice, good luck, maybe your tree will be the one in a million. Please remember to inform us what happens next year, it adds to our info on this rare species.

" Mcpotts 7a (My Page) on
Fri, Nov 30, 12 at 7:43

We have ours in a pot. Bought at Cistus several years ago and during the warm months we keep it outside. It just motors along."

"I should warn you your summer humidity will most likely spell its end"

McPotts has said they are in Virginia. If he's growing in it Virginia in a pot, it obviously doesn't have an exquisite sensitivity to humidity. Believe me, I've lost plants that do, even if they were in pots. That being said, of course it's a risk in growing any high elevation species like this in a humid climate like ours. A handful of facilities actually have air conditioned greenhouses to mitigate this. I believe Longwood has one.

This post was edited by davidrt28 on Fri, Nov 30, 12 at 23:09

david this post of yours is really confusing. My quote is responding to scpalmnut's explanation of what he really meant to say in his first line starting this thread (he could have saved us hours of typing if he had told us that when he saw everyone's reaction on the first day!;-)

Mcpotts has nothing to do with it. Reread the two messages, they're directly above your last post. Now THAT is a perfectly valid reason to edit a message imho.

"Mcpotts has nothing to do with it. Reread the two messages, they're directly above your last post."

Actually, you should reread. McPotts says he has a Pinus maximartinezii. You said humidity would kill one. That has everything "to do with it".

This post was edited by davidrt28 on Fri, Nov 30, 12 at 23:44

I didn't say it, a grower with over 20 years of experience with the species said it along with every other person growing it that he knows. UCB botanical garden has told me the same thing btw. Are you forgetting everything that's been written on this thread or are you just itching to constantly argue with me? Dave, anyone, can you intercede and tell him his behavior is ridiculous, I can't be the only one tired of his nonsense. I'm beginning to wonder if I should even bother posting on this forum anymore, I wasn't a fan of flame wars and trolls in my BBS days (I was a moderator on echos in FidoNet and RBBSNet) and I certainly haven't grown to like them now. Please someone else say something, sheesh...

"I didn't say it, a grower with over 20 years of experience with the species said it along with every other person growing it that he knows. UCB botanical garden has told me the same thing btw. Are you forgetting everything that's been written on this thread or are you just itching to constantly argue with me? Dave, anyone, can you intercede and tell him his behavior is ridiculous"

If you say something here, you said it. That's the way a messageboard works. You didn't say you were quoting an expert. You take anybody challenging you as "ridiculous behavior". I suggest you think seriously about why you do that.

In any case, part of what this board is about is people challenging conventional wisdom. If someone at UCB Berkeley says it doesn't grow here, and McPotts does...fine. You can report what the UCB Berkeley person says, and I can report what McPotts says. (not that I should have to, since it's right here in the thread) That IS NOT a flame war! Someone else keeps trying to escalate it to that with ad hominem attacks.

BTW, all I said is that it didn't have an "exquisite" sensitivity to humidity if it could grow in a pot in Virginia. (I could list 15 other plants that would die in a pot in Virginia.) I largely agreed with you by pointing out it's a risk to grow such things in a humid climate! Yes, Salicaceae said one or more had died for him. SCPalmnut is presumably between FL & VA, somewhere in South Carolina. His mileage may vary as the internet-ism goes. Parts of the sandhills supposedly have somewhat lower humidity than the rest of the Southeast. Maybe SCPalmNut is in one of these areas.
The concern here is how defensive you get when someone merely contributes another thought to a thread that doesn't exactly, precisely agree with your views.

Hey everyone,

Nice discussion.

I have a few pinus maximartenzii seeds. Germination is easy, after cold stratisfication and strong sunlight exposure, at 20ºC plus, for more than 12 hours, in sandy media.

Initial growth is also easy. I have two seedlings, 1 year old. I have exposed them to minor frost and they suffered only a bit. I live between zone 9b and 8b (Portugal - similar climate to California), so I think we definitively have a chance for the rare maxi pine.

In native habitat, it stands ocasional harder frosts down to -8ºC. But it is in semi-desert cool mountain climate, so perhaps covering with plastic works while young, and while adult , trees might either die, suffer to adapt.

Another pine I am also trying is the torrey pine, which would have quite a similar cold tolerance.

I think it's educational at least, and important at best, to share between us, our efforts with rare species like the maxi pine, and whether they can be sucessfully grown ex situ in compatible climates.

How have your efforts with pinus maximartenenzii, scpalmbut, worked out?

"Nice discussion."
LOL. It certainly wasn't nice.
There's always a case to be made for just starting a new thread after this long, but, as I tried to make clear 2.5 years ago, there are gray areas in life. Hopefully scpalmnut sees this and replies to it.

I agree, probably it wasn't that nice.

But certainly my hope is to discuss plant hardiness of the pinus maximartenenzii, and nothing else ;) Hopefully scpalmnut will let us know what happened to his trees.

Mines are just in their first outdoor year (second year of growth), they face partially the winter outdoors but remaining on pots, and did fine, but only down to -1ºC, while it's zone8b and ocasionally goes down to -5ºC. And I just got some new seeds to germinate these last couple of weeks. Hopefully I will share what happens to them, after the next winter...

Funny now that I revisit the RBGE multisite search - which has more sites than it did in 2012 - more records in the US appear.
One at the Montgomery Botanical Center, which somewhat confusingly is not in Montgomery, AL but in south Florida. I highly, highly doubt they have an air-conditioned conservatory, or if they did that they would waste space in it for a mexican pine. So one can only assume it is growing outside and tolerating the massive humidity levels there. Or perhaps is a clever graft as Willows has sometimes done, to keep high-elevation roots from rotting in hot, wet climates.
Even stranger, and perhaps doubly ironic since I got in an argument more recently that I settled with (among other things!) an RBGE multisite search citation from there, is this rather bizarre entry for the species, in Niagara of all places!!!!!

Niagara Parks Botanical Gardens

Living Collections Search Results
Accessions

Pinus maximartinezii
Accession Number: 860640
Collected in Mexico: Zacatecas
Source: Mexico
Living Plants of this Accession
Qualifier Location Code Location
A GOL-2 Golf Course - Anacardiaceae Collection (Section 2)

I love for some reason that the Golf Course is also the Anacardiaceae collection. Hopefully they have some poison ivy - ball retrieval hazard LOL.

Probably a mis-named plant, but if it really is hardy in the eastern Great Lakes climate...wow. That would have really made makros's head spin! (and believe me, hers would have, like the possessed girl in 'Exorcist') Maybe I'm misunderstanding something about this "Niagara Parks" facility, and a golf course on Vancouver Island is their western Canadian annex for mild climate plants. Or it's the world's largest enclosed golf course haha.

Just to update, my tree is still alive and doing well after two consecutive winters with temperatures falling below 10F. This year I erected a "phone booth" around the thing to protect it and to keep it from getting squashed from the tarps and blankets that I used to wrap it with in previous winters. As an additional note, one growing unprotected at the Cox Arboretum in Georgia, likely did not survive. Time will tell.

Scpalmnut, that is great news. Also it's excellent news those reports of a Pinus maxi in Niagara and in Georgia.

How cold do you think it got at your the tree when it was wrapped in winter? Perhaps 20-25ºF? Was it only thin plastic wrap, or something thicker?

Great news anyways, because here winters are never below 25ºF, so we can definitively try the pinus maxi !

I think it would laugh at mid 20's for sure. Yes, it was enclosed in a wooden frame with plastic stapled to it. On the nights where it dropped into the teens or lower, I would also turn on a halogen work light and a string of Christmas lights that I had inside the enclosure. Not sure what the absolute minimum temp it got to inside on the coldest nights.

Well, it is one thing to have your pinus maxi covered in plastic in the lower 10s but without much humidity (it does get that in the cold winters of the desert climate of central Mexico), another thing is to get a food frost of lower 20s but with humidity, that forms ice crystals on the plant.

It's a good plastic encasement, but a pine tree needs to grow tall and wide, it cannot stay for longer in such wrap. (But I understand the logic, I am attempting the sameto grow a mango tree at my zone 8b climate)

I think a maxi pine seedling might suffer heavily or die (not sure), a grown tree might catch disease if unprotected, I would be sorry to estimate that.

But perhaps I am wrong and this species does well with lower 20s and frost. Especially if those Niagara and Georgia reports are true.

I will certainly know that after the next winter !

I will get mid20s next January, moist frost, and I will see how will my 2year old seedling do.

I would say maxi pine is suitable to zone 10 for sure. Perhaps zone 9 and zone 8, certainly if freezes are dry, not sure if frost forms. Zone 7 will probably kill the tree eventually. That's my guess.

Many years ago a friend of mine gave me several 3' grafted P.maximartinezii. I had a seedling of an age (here in South Australia) where it was already making pollen & only took these as he didn't want them. The rootstock was surprisingly P.pinea. This was surprising as P.pinea is or I believe from my reading, is out on its own in the pines. These thrived & made excellent growth. The scion overgrew at the union somewhat as the bark of the maximartinezii was thicker & sort of corky. Inspired by this success I put P.torreyana & sabiniana on P.pinea. Both made strong healthy unions & grew to maturity. All the above were ultimately lost to divorces (very regrettable as we can't import pines from the Americas anymore) but my point is that if you wish to try species outside their natural environmental range maybe try grafting on hardy species? There certainly seems to be a wide compatibility among pines if my experiments were anything to go on.

Peter

Just saw scpalmnut at the ACS National Meeting in Ohio and his tree is doing great. He has forgotten more about horticulture than I know, and so it doesn't surprise me that he was able to make this survive and thrive.

Wow..and coming from a Californian as well. (sorry, had to make the joke - you are one of the good Californians!) I really didn't ever want to see this thread bumped, but I'm glad to see it bumped for "my side". Funny timing cause I was of late deeply musing about what I see as the "politicization" of the plant vs climate adaptation aspects/issues of horticulture - as everything else in the world is becoming sadly politicized - but I won't go into it. I really wish Gardenweb had a forum for the "philosophy of gardening" or something - but maybe I'd be the only one posting there. LOL!

I hesitated about adding to it but I thought that it was important to note that the plant was doing well. And to reinforce that the poster is an accomplished horticulturist. One of the reasons that I prefer interacting with fellow gardeners in person is that no one at these meetings gets snippy and I learn so much from the other people.

"is that no one at these meetings gets snippy and I learn so much from the other people."

Good point there; alas my in-person interactions with certain advanced horticulturalists have not always gone as I would have hoped, in the long run...but again I digress! Thanks for the great update. I will say, generally, it's not just an issue with gardeners...all sorts of people with shall we say complex interests tend to be very opinionated about certain subjects related to those interests. And it just is what it is and you have accept it on some level. So, when some famous collector accuses me of being "taker" for not joining a certain plant society, and cut me off from communications, as absurd as that is you just have to accept it as an unfortunate part of what made the person a great collector. (not to say every horticulturalist is prickly, but that some definitely are. Just as I knew a biology professor in college who accused psychology of being a pseudoscience...etc. etc.)

But I go back to a point I've been making here since the early 2000s, if every plant were _only_ adapted to conditions just like its native range...clearly, there would be no such thing as horticulture. Or what we know today as horticulture. I'm reminded of when I first overwintered Fuchsia regia in the late 90s, through some fairly cold winters, and then using whatever means you could back then investigated the climate of where it came from in Brazil. (was wikipedia around?) It's basically like, the climate of Johannesburg, South Africa, but even milder. And one thought, there's simply no reason this plant should be so hardy. But it is.

Arghhh...bumping again, (maybe not so wise), but my plant, which I put in the ground in the ground last November, in the most sheltered place I could find, made it through our (mild) winter of 2016-17 and has put on nice growth this year. I"m pushing it in terms of winter temps; the dry summer should be very much to its liking. If this winter turns out to be severe, it is the one plant that I have that I will cover. I have also seen it growing at the Crombie Conifer Preserve in Guerneville, which unfortunately is no more (the Preserve; I can't speak to whether the plant is still there). Appropriately, I planted it near a Callitris oblonga, given to me by.....wait for it....scpalmnut!

Curious as to why you think Sonoma County is pushing it "in terms of winter temps", if one was growing in South Carolina and presumably survived the polar winters? Maybe I misunderstood something about SC Palmnut's location or cultivation of the plant? (does he have a greenhouse?) Anyhow, no doubt your low dewpoints will be more to the liking of something from the Mexican cloudforests.

I think there's never a problem with bumping if you have substantive addition to an existing thread. Which this is - especially since you'd met scpalmnut in person. What I find slightly funny is the world of horticulture isn't a very big place, even in the Bay Area, and I wouldn't be surprised if you'd crossed paths with floramakros at some point. In spite of never belonging to any social media sites, I have pretty good google-fu and had at the time tracked down her real ID. Now _completely_ forgetten other than a general sense of who she was and why she (probably) had apparent axes to grind.

I am actually glad that whole melee happened because it forced me to think about plant adaptation in an even more scientific way than I already had been doing.

I wonder what happened to mcpotts because he or she was growing some interesting things in central VA.

Ok ok had to read through this sucker again. SCpalmnut was indeed massively protecting his, even though it's outside. Help me out here, what's the appeal? LOL. I don't see the exotically dripping needles of Pinus lumholtzii, for example. The fluffiness of the needles seems to lose its distinctiveness as the plants age. This, for example, would hardly turn any more heads than a plain old Pinus patula: https://www.rarepalmseeds.com/pix/PinMax.shtml

The steely blue color and needle texture are breathtaking.

I really should have planted the P. maximartinezii next to the Acer maximowiczianum!

For your interest here is a picture of 2 dead (through neglect & lack of water) P.maximartinezii on P.pinea grafts. You'll see from the picture that I had the overgrowth order reversed in my comment above & it was indeed the stock bark which overgrew (my memory has long passed its juvenile vigor). The graft on the right has the bark removed & shows that although the union looks rough from the outside it is actually relatively smooth & appears very strong & quite compatible. I have no reason to believe that this combination wouldn't be viable in the long term. The young plants were very vigorous from memory & made 5' by their second year. These unions pictured were 4 years old at their untimely death of thirst & were still displaying full juvenile foliage in 8" pots.

"Yes the mature needles are short, stiffish & morph to grayish rather than the electric blue of the juveniles but the change is no more pronounced than the one which besets us as we lose our youthful beauty, firm skin, lush radiant hair & bright hopeful eyes to become old gnarled & twisted & end up as decomposing worm ridden stumps!"

And I'm a downer?

Maybe a form could be found that, like various other conifers, retains its juvenile foliage forever, or at least for much longer.

:) Yep you should have Sara & for good measure put some Mielichhoferia mielichhoferiana underneath!!

Touche David! ;)