P. wilsoniana and P. sinensis even do ok in Florida. They are very happy in hot, humid climates. P. wilsoniana has been more vigorous. Camellia Forest has both. When i was there a couple of months ago they had dozens of 6-8' tall P. sinensis and P. wilsoniana as 1 gallons I believe. Forestfarm has L. mastersiana listed in the new catalog.

I have both they are almost identical P willsoniana has
darker undersides to needles.Most books now treat
p sinensis and p willsoniana as p sinensis.

6 to 8 feet tall in 1 gallons? That can't be right for a reputable nursery?

Camellia Forest has some decent stuff but but 6-8' in 1 gal pots = major root bound

Forestfarm had L. mastersiana in the odds & ends section, but it appears to already have sold out. FW Schumacher still lists the seeds, but the price has doubled since 2011 so presumably it is getting harder to obtain. I can't really justify $24+shipping when I'm generally too lazy to raise anything from seed, except my own half hearted attempts to hybridize rhododendrons.
As I said in another thread, though I think L. kaempferi are generally doing ok for Spruceman et al. out in the 6b-ish elevated parts of the state, here where nights are extra muggy and, in the past few years at least, rainfall of 20+ inches a month in the summers (coupled with droughts!) has not been uncommon, I've totally given up on Larix kaempferi & L. eurolepis. They can grow like gangbusters when happy, but root rots always eventually find them. Most disppointingly, a L. k. on top of a berm where nearby seedling Abies alba, Abies cephalonica, and Abies delavayis are doing just fine. So apparently it's even more root rot suspectible than something like A. delavayi. But I believe all those firs are from wild collected seed, as I said before I suspect most seed stocks of L. k. are suffering "inbreeding depression". It's just hard to otherwise explain how a summer-wet species should start dying en masse of phytophthora in a climate as benign as England's.

This post was edited by davidrt28 on Sun, Dec 29, 13 at 17:40

Sorry the P. sinensis are in bigger pots - at least 15 gallon. Some had leaders that were 3' long! The P. wilsoniana are nice vigorous liners - I bought one.

David,

I emailed F.W. Schumacher...they actually do not currently have L. mastersiana in stock.

I may still have some mastersiana in the fridge. I had a bunch of seeds a few years ago and grew many seedlings (and gave them all away to friends in MN). I will check.

Thanks Hairmetal, in fact, I seem to recall contacting them about a year ago and hearing the same thing. Could be mixing it up with someone else though.
Since I've given up on all other Larix, L. mastersiana has shot to near the top of my "trying to obtain" list. My single plant is in my "trialling bed" near the house; yes, if you'r not careful with that system, things get way too big and then you kill them trying to get them out. Happened to a rare Quercus libani, which I was disgusted by, and a Michelia skinneriana, which I was fortunately able to replace. The L. mastersiana is about 3.5 feet (from 10" when I got it from Colvos) and I will move it very soon, during a mild spell this winter, with the biggest rootball I can get. That's what I've generally learneda about these cowboy transplantations - they have to be done in winter. I did successfully move a 9' Abies firma one December so I am finally learning.

Thanks for checking, Salicaceae.
FWIW, yes the Pseudotsuga sinensis can grow like gangbusters, my plant put on at least 2' of growth this year with no fertilization, ever. From a little seedling

This post was edited by davidrt28 on Sun, Dec 29, 13 at 18:02

Metasequoia's ridiculous growth rate notwithstanding, with most full size conifers, a foot a year while young isn't bad by my standards. Do firs speed up around age 10 like many spruces seem to (for me)?

Salicaceae, thanks for checking!

If you can part with some, let me know.

How do you germinate them? I assume they need some type of stratification.

Oh, and David, what didn't you like about the Quercus libani?

No, no, I was moving the Q. libani from a trial bed area to a permanent spot in the garden. Unfortunately, I did it in late May and the weather suddently turned hot. It actually had pretty foliage resembling a smaller Quercus castaneifolia leaf. If I had just waited for the following Nov-Dec it would have survived! I replaced it, though, with a Quercus variabilis from Woodlanders that will 1) probably be a better long term plant for this climate 2) a better plant for what I wanted (high shade) and 3) will have the added benefit of semi-corky bark in maturity. It is definitely faster growing than the Q. libani was. So, no great tragedy but I need to reign in my impulse to move things at the wrong times of year. I was disgusted I did something so foolhardy...not by the plant itself! The figo shrub I tried to move was smaller and too this day I'm not sure why it died so quickly, but, it did. BTW this time I put the Q. variabilis out in the garden in its permanent spot...no more moving of deep rooted plants! I like putting small mail order plants in one area because I can keep an eye on them more easily, including watering...and also because for whatever reason deer at least are somewhat reluctant to get that close to my house. But time has a way of slipping past, and suddenly you've got something that's getting a big unmanageable rootball. Most things I do manage to get in time: for example the Arburtus X andrachnoides I mentioned on the trees forum, I moved last November (2012) when it was about 3' tall and other than one branch dying it was fine.

This post was edited by davidrt28 on Sun, Dec 29, 13 at 20:35

How about the cold hardiness of these two Pseudotsugas? I've read anything from z5 to z8 for the cold end for P. sinensis.

Have any of you had cold damage who have them?

Or could it be like Abies pindrow (which, based on its native range should be at least as hardy as Cedrus deodara), which is rated anything from z6 to 8, in that, it's simply not tested enough to really know so the numbers are all over?

There's an A. pindrow at Arnold Arboretum but Boston, along with the entire east coast, hasn't had a truly cold winter since 1994. (knock on wood) One certainly wouldn't expect it to be any hardier than zn 6, probably more like zn 7. Likewise the very high elevations of Taiwan aren't particularly cold, surely no worse than zn 8 where the Pseudotsuga grow. (Even the top of Yu Shan isn't very cold for something that high: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yu_Shan) So I think zn 7 is a very reasonable guess for all the ones you list, and of course, like C. deodara, there could be varietal differences. I doubt the guys who collect seeds of these species bother to hike to the highest cold hollows to get seeds...why would they? 'Shalimar', for example, wasn't selected because it was hoped to be hardy. It just happened to be a nice looking specimen in a garden near Srinagar (zn 8-ish, fairly low elevation)...it turned out to be relatively hardy. OTOH I do think 'Paktia' and a couple others were deliberately collected for hardiness. So, maybe someday someone will bother to go look for extra-hardy A. pindrow and chinese Psuedotsuga...for now we have to take seedlings.

Well, David, if the Euro forecasting model is to be believed, we might see a 1994-like week of cold next week...one was showing subzero lows even east of 95...and negative teens in the western DC suburbs.

Granted, it's one model, but a 1994 or 1985 can and will happen again, some time. Maybe now, maybe 10 years. Climate change or not.

I'm willing to try them out to see. In fact, I may order some seeds of P. sinensis from Schumacher to have a bunch of seedlings to "test" for a few years for hardiness, form, etc. Same with A. pindrow.

Maybe someone in the PNW (where EVERYTHING can apparently grow as far as conifers are concerned) where all of them could be grown together, could cross one of the Chinese douglas-firs with Pseudotsuga menziesii var. glauca (which is probably z4 hardy or at least z5) to see if we can get the best of both worlds.

This post was edited by hairmetal4ever on Mon, Dec 30, 13 at 23:42

Just a few weeks ago, I talked to a guy who lives in western Howard County, MD, who had a C. deodara 'Shalimar' side by side with a seedling deodara in his yard back in 1994.

The 'Shalimar' had barely even any needle burn, and the seedling tree was dead as a doornail after that winter. The Shalimar is still there today and doing beautifully. It really is THAT hardy.

Yet plenty of other deodaras are far older than 1994 around here and many are seedling trees, presumably. Hence the variability. Most of them would be worth collecting seed from, since they've survived 30-40+ years, but I can't say I've ever seen a cone on a deodara around here.

I've seen them on C. atlantica and libani IIRC, but not deodara.

Yes western Howard County got very cold in 1994. I know of a garden there that supposedly hit -16F. The person you met may or may not have been that cold, you can easily see a 6-8F degree difference just based on topology although apparently topology differences were smoothed out in 1994 because of the huge pressure gradients and high winds; it was even more an advective freeze than ours usually are. That was the last winter with so much prolonged and deep cold that you could safely walk from VA to DC across the Potomac. What's interesting is what it didn't manage to kill: the Sequoia semprevirens in Silver Spring, MD, for example.

Has anyone tried grafting P. menziesii cultivars to P. sinensis or wilsoniana to see if it would result in better results in warmer climates? Similar to using Abies firma as a rootstock for true firs.

Just a brainstorm.

I suggested it to David Parks a few years ago but never heard back from him that he was able to do it. I'd like to grow P. m. 'Graceful Grace' on P. sinensis.

"Has anyone tried grafting P. menziesii cultivars to P. sinensis or wilsoniana to see if it would result in better results in warmer climates? Similar to using Abies firma as a rootstock for true firs"

P. menziesii suffers from fungal needlecast diseases in hot / humid climates, so I doubt that it would work. You'd need to find genes for disease resistance.

Resin

Yeah actually this is very timely for Pineresin to post about this...although I will have to beg to differ with him. Because it occurred to me this morning after exchanging emails with a nurseryowner over a grafted spruce I want to buy, that there are no doubt grafted Picea pungens on the east coast that STILL look like crap, because they get foliar needle diseases of some kind whatever rootstock there are growing on. (obviously, not a P. pungens I was considering buying, because I can't stand them) So, with that particular species at least, grafting may or may not make a difference...more likely may not. HOWEVER, as for Pseudotsuga menziesii...
'Graceful Grace' was discovered near York, PA. That's slightly cooler than I am in all seasons, perhaps prone especially to cooler nights...but will it be enough to make a difference? I can't believe the original plant was dying when the selection was made. And the Pseudotsuga menziesii I saw years ago at Tysons Corner mall, perhaps 15' and growing on steep fill next to one of the parking lots, looked perfectly disease free. Tysons is the highest elevation in Ffx Co. and might be a little more airy than the average place in the lower mid-Atlantic, but not enough to make a decisively difference. Finally, there are various P.m. in the big tree and botanical garden records for the lower mid-Atlantic, including some at the National Arboretum. So yes, they might have these problems but this area might not be quite humid enough to make them inevitable. OTOH it's hard not to think that grafted plants would benefit from the Asian species' resistance to high summer rainfall combined with high soil temps, which could cause root rot.

I've heard that this has been tried, but rarely works. A friend of mine said he tried to use P. menziesii as rootstock for P. japonica many times, but the grafts always fail. Graft incompatibility has long been an issue for P. menziesii on itself too. Not sure why.

Do you think they can hybridize, salicaceae?

The offspring might have to be cutting or tissue-cultured if there were a good one, but if such a cross would "take" it might be worthwhile.

"Do you think they can hybridize, salicaceae?"

No; P. menziesii has a different chromosome number (2n = 26; c.f. 2n = 24 for P. japonica and almost all other Pinaceae). That prevents hybridisation, though it won't be the cause of graft incompatibility. I've seen P. menziesii grafted successfully on Larix kaempferi, so it can be done.

Resin

Resin...
What about Larix mastersiana on Pseudotsuga sinensis...should that work?

The fact it grafts on Larix is quite intetesting...

So does anyone have experience with Pseudotsuga japonica? Info on that one is pretty elusive.

"What about Larix mastersiana on Pseudotsuga sinensis...should that work?"

Worth a try.

"The fact it grafts on Larix is quite intetesting..."

It demonstrated - some time before genetics proved it - that larch and douglas-fir are closely related genera. Their seeds are also quite similar, and differing from other Pinaceae seeds.

Resin

Here's Pseudutsuga wilsoniana cone pic taken 6/18/12 at Atlanta Botanical Garden. Tree had a bumper crop of cones but I believe it's the "lone" specimen located there thus producing non viable seed

Johnny

David - any damage on your wilsoniana from the near-zero temps this week? How cold did you get?

Not our coldest potential temps really, but the wind probably made it a bit worse, esp. for conifers.

We hit exactly zero here in Columbia.

The low was 3F here and though I didn't scrutinize it closely (still not exactly "go for a stroll in the gardens" weather, yet) it looked just fine. Overall I feel very lucky, there was less damage than I expected. I think the good growing season means my plants were plump full of water, or something. The second freeze, in particular, was insanely advective. Nowhere could escape the cold because of it...except maybe Virginia Beach but that's why they are rated zn 8. The winds were incredible. I had piled over a foot of snow on top of a tiny recently planted Myrtus communis to protect it, the pile was still intact when temps started plummeting Monday night. By Wednesday morning, this pile had completely vanished without trace! But it is still green so hopefully that saved it...it's also in a very protected nook.

The advective nature is why there was a relatively small spread between Dulles and Reagan National airports. 1 and 7 degree lows, respectively, a 6 degree spread. In radiative cooling freezes its usually 10 degrees or more spread.

Yeah exactly. In the first freeze it went down to -2F or even -3F in some frost hollows up in Lancaster County, not very far away from me as the crow flies. But I was only 6F. In the second freeze, on the "Wundermap" there was a remarkable smoothness of temperature distributions. I'm kinda amazed DCA got off pratically "scot free" at 7F, but they are surrounded by still unfrozen water AND an urban core. In the first freeze Tolchester Beach and Rock Hall, MD were protected by the bay being to the west and was quite mild, not below 10F IIRC. The strong winds of the second freeze easily crossed the bay and those places went down to around 5F.

I was surprised to see that Martin airport in Baltimore City, as well as the Inner Harbor were in the mid-single digits as well. The wind was the "great equalizer".

Although, had it not been windy, and there had been decent snowcover, we could have seen -5 to -10 in the more rural areas away from water, especially in the higher elevations.

IâÂÂve seen various website suggest that P. sinensis is hardy to zone 5 with correct seed source. However, IâÂÂve matched up the provinces that the tree is found in in itâÂÂs native range in China with a USDA zone map of China, and the entirety of the native range is really z8-9 & possibly 10. It doesnâÂÂt appear to even touch z7 except possibly in one small area. Therefore zone 7 is probably best-case for this species. Unless there are undiscovered isolated popuations further north or at higher elevations in China (which is certainly possible, really, as rural China is largely unexplored botanically by Westerners or even the modern Chinese outside those rural areas).

Same is true for P. japonica, itâÂÂs almost impossible to find, but itâÂÂs native range also appears to be z8/9. P. wilsoniana is similar to P. sinensis and thereâÂÂs nothing suggesting it would be any more cold hardy.

It doesnâÂÂt appear there is a truly hot-humid summer tolerant Doug-fir that is reliably hardy north of zone 7, and even thatâÂÂs pushing it.

Hhhmmmm...well plants are usually at least a zone hardier than their current zone ratings. East Asia was remarkably spared of glaciation during recent ice ages, but it still undoubtedly got colder in those places. If you look at where Metasequoia comes from, it is zn 7 at the very coldest, probably more like zn 8, but the plants are zn 5b hardy.

I might post a consolidated damage report a little later in the spring (or might not; there really aren't many people trying to grow the kinds of plants I'm trying to grow in this general area) but for now, here's a sneak peak of my Pseudotsuga sinensis. As you can see there was a bit of needle burn immediately above the snowline. However the top 3' of the plant is just fine, with very sporadic bits of needle damage. Cedrus 'Shalimar' has a very similar appearance; and FWIW I've even seen such needle damage near the snowline on things like Cryptomeria. Considering all of my Sequoia semprevirens showed what I would rate as moderate damage, and those two showed what I would call minimal damage, I would say they are at least a half zone hardier and probably roughly comparable. 'Shalimar' is typically rated as zn 6 but I think 6b is a little more precise.

This post was edited by davidrt28 on Mon, Mar 10, 14 at 23:33

Excellent points, David. However the claims of z5 for P. sinensis still seem very suspect.

As far as Metasequoia, I think part of the reason it is so hardy is that it once had a far greater native range.

"However the claims of z5 for P. sinensis still seem very suspect. "

No, not that I think you misunderstood my post, but I agree that doesn't seem plausible. However it is probably hardier than its native range, and could be zn 6b hardy. I wonder what the one at the Arnold Arboretum looks like.

I was thinking about trying one of these in north Texas.

Would Pseudotsuga sinensis, wilsoniana, or japonica be able to be grown here?

Gosh, where is Salicaceae, hairmetal, etc? Is this forum slowly dying?
I think provided the USDA zone was suitable, yes the hardier one (probably. P. sinensis) would be able to grow in most of Texas. Summer heat appears to not be a problem. However, a lack of H2O molecules and possible H+ ions could be a big problem in the long run. They come from monsoon climate where each summer month has at least 6" of rain. But hey, over on the fruit forum there's a dude in west TX who adds sulfuric acid (and plenty of H2O at times, too) to his super-alkaline soil to grow blueberries. So, where there's a will there's a way! Might make more sense to to find something a little more drought tolerant though. Scotjute (sp?) a poster here might have recommendations. I bet some of the heat tolerant firs like Abies cephalonica would be a better choice for your area if you want that look. Make sure it is an own-root seedling, though. The Asian Pseudostuga make more sense around Houston, etc.

NB based on my experience last winter even P. sinensis is not quite fully zn 7 hardy. Although I said above that it only had burning near the snowline, in fact, some of the branches on the top of the plant appeared partially killed because they didn't sprout normally. The Sequoia semprevirens were slightly more visibly damaged by the cold, BUT, recovered faster over the year. Could be their hexaploid powers at work! LOL.

Here is a link that might be useful:

This post was edited by davidrt28 on Wed, Dec 10, 14 at 15:01

That map was painted with a rather broad brush, but it shows generally what's predicted. Looks like Texas gets it the worst and it spreads out from there.
Mike

david, at least here, the cold drives the landscape into hibernation. Prb'ly posters too...

duplicate

This post was edited by beng on Thu, Dec 11, 14 at 9:32

Interesting map, David.

Seems like although we do get fairly frequent short-term mild to moderate droughts here in the Mid Atlantic. our severe drought risk is and always has been relatively low.

What do your Pseudotsugas and Sequoias look like now?

You would never know anything had happened to the Sequoias. They fully resprouted and almost completely dropped dead needles; there was a dead branch right along the snowline that burned on S.s.'Soquel' which I removed.

The Pseudotsuga sinensis had to regenerate all of its top in the end, and so some of the branchlets are kinda bedraggled looking, for lack of a better term. I'm not making any personal conclusions (as in - final findings) about its hardiness yet. It had grown so ridiculously fast since being planted. Maybe it will slow down in the next few years and become slightly hardier, or something. Also I moved it to a more logical location in the garden...but that doesn't seem to have set it back at all. I used my FEL to try to get a big rootmass as I did when I successfully moved my 8' Abies firma and Citrumelo 'Dunstan' seedling.

Sounds like the Sequoias are worth a try, but based on the damage you saw, and me being a good 5F colder overall out here in Howard Cty, I'm a bit nervous to try P. sinensis.

I did buy some seed last spring from FW Schumacher, but had exactly 0% germination for P. sinensis (the other species I got from them did well, but that one was a bad batch apparently).

Yeah it's kind of a toss up but if you held a gun to my head right now and said which one is hardier, I'd have to say the Sequoia. I guess it makes it less of a disappointment that you didn't get any Asian Pseudotsuga to germinate ;-)
Again though, more because they seemed to recover faster and more fully. Hopefully we won't have too many more winters like that last one in which the question can even be evaluated. I'd never had trouble with the hardiness of either of them before; which applies to many things in my garden this year. It was just such a prolonged blast of cold. Rosemary 'Hill Hardy' - had never had a lick of damage before. 5" caliper, 6 ft wide plant, completely killed, not even able to regrow from the roots. 2' X 3' Gardenia 'Kleim's Hardy'...didn't resprout from roots until June. Also never a bit of damage before. That's just the tip of the iceberg - no pun intended!

This post was edited by davidrt28 on Thu, Dec 18, 14 at 7:16

BTW just for posterity...want to clarifying something.
Yes the top of 'Shalimar' had just a few dead needles after last winter. Superificially similar to the Asian Douglas Fir. However, it grew completely normally and well in the spring. The top of the Pseudostuga sinensis: after my initial post saying it didn't appear damaged, more and more of needles dropped over the spring, and then the new growth had an odd twisted, stunted appearance. Also, unlike previous years where it had put on at least a solid 12" of vertical growth, it seemed to put all its energy into recovery. Clearly, the plant did not 'approve' of the winter LOL. In contrast the C. deodara 'Shalimar' had its best year of vertical growth ever. Finally looks like an expensive B&B plant from an upscale mail line nursery instead of a tiny 3' mail order one haha.

This post was edited by davidrt28 on Thu, Dec 18, 14 at 13:52