in my various attempts to grow seed of many differing kinds...

i ended most of my problems when i started sterilizing my soil before use ...

link below ..

i learned to not believe everything printed on the bag ... even if they claim its sterile.. do it yourself ...

and sterilize EVERYTHING ELSE first in a good wash of 10% bleach .. including..

the flat.. the mat.. the doom.. all tools... wear sterile gloves.. etc ...

start with operating room clean .. and remove 99% of your potential problems upfront ...

i realize this is of little help.. after the facts ... but figured sharing it was best..

good luck .. its fun to have a little part of your garden, growing in the dead of the great white north winter ...

ken

Here is a link that might be useful: link

better to sow them in individual containers than in a tray like the one pictured, even if it ultimately is a waste of container media on seeds that don't sprout. that way you dont have to pick them out of the media when they are small and fragile. If you leave them in the tray too long the roots will grow together. If in individual "cells" or pots they can be left to grow on a little and then potted up.

Also Your natural organic soil should have plenty of the organisms you think the dome keeps out...still think the myco and root enhancer are garbage. And will until I see an IPPS paper or the like describing its benefits in a controlled setting.

Thanks for all the advice. You all probably saved me some trouble in the upcoming months.

I have a couple questions. At what size do you remove the seedlings from the sowing bed? Also, do you transplant them bareroot or just scoop them up potting soil and all?

Plants 77, the individual containers ARE a waste...I was taught this way by the head of the SF Strybing Arboretum.

You can sew seeds reasonably close (not TOO close) together and separate them later when the roots begin to poke through the bottom of the flat ( I use 2 flats, one with holes in it, the other without in order to "catch" the water).

Granted now, the seedlings get shocked a bit when you "separate" them later on, but all you need to do is keep them in a semi-humid, shaded area for a week or two WITH the mychorizzae and some other root-appropriate amendments and they recover fine. We grew 150 dawn redwood seedlings last year at Strybing and lost NONE. We sewed all 160 seedlings in no more than about five or six 4"x4" containers. That's some pretty DENSE seeding if you can imagine it.

Also, when separating, you need to be be very patient and take the time to very GENTLY separate the roots by hand, and not TUG or PULL on any of the entanglements. I usually wash the soil away with a bit of water.

As far as the "organic" soil having fungus spores in it, it DOES, but it comes pre-innoculated with beneficial ecto and endo mychorrizae, the Fox Farm company are plant people, they sterilize their soil before innoculating it. Say what you will, but the evidence proves it straight...here I am almost 6 weeks into it and I've lost but one, while the containers I sewed Metasequoia seedlings into that I left exposed and open to air have lost about half each to damping off.

Not sure exactly what species of fungi (botritis?) contribute to damping off, but it'd be interesting to look into.

I agree (even though I use the same flats above, currently just until I build a big old box about 8" deep in my greenhouse that, it is a waste to start seeds that have not had embryo's checked, which ain't gonna happen brothers and sisters, that a flat and 'pricking them' after the first set of leaves (I use a baby spoon), my mom's spoon actually - that moving them/transplanting them to the next size up in a small pot/pudding size container or 3" pot, etc- that the use of flats is the only way to grow of course.

A question above about moving small sprouted seedlings and the answers are that you never touch the roots, that the roots should not be in contact with sunlight especially, and that you never hold onto the stem but rather a side leaf or many times I use the first set of leaves "untrue leaves" the cotyledens and plant them at the original depth from your flat to the pot are the only ways to handle seedlings.

Pick your own pot size or how you might boost the hell out of them with fertilizer. Of course with trees, "tubes" and 'tree pots' are the answer to correct root growth. Anyways, that sort of answers "plants77" question.

As a sidenote:
Hell, I still see experienced nurserymen using the same flat above for winter conifer cuttings and getting great results. It's all about high humidity for great results with cuttings. I inheritly only agree with sequoistiffy about that humidity dome in his situation however. That being a window in human living coniditions where all the air is very DRY! In any other greenhouse or indoor setting, that humidity dome should only be used (such as in a basement) to germinate the seedlings and then off immediately and careful attention now being directed to proper watering and very good "AIR CIRCULATION." There's no doubt in my mind.

Sequoia, better get yourself a fungicide for backup man. All that humidity is going to affect the foliage and they're gonna wilt on you....only if the temp is past 55 or so... INSIDE that dome/box. Otherwise, watch out, you're gonna have some serious losses on your hands. Those boxes can get real hot and real fast! Just beware.

I'd still use a fungicide no matter what.

Later,

Dax

I am growing some metasequoia seedlings too and have about 50 growing at the moment. My approach is to use a 32 cell Whitcomb tray so I don't have to move them while they are so small and the tray also helps with air pruning the roots. Another difference is I germinate the seeds inside a small enclosed plastic container with the seeds on a damp paper towel. I just check them everyday and when I see that they have germinated I just plant them in one of the cells. This helps prevent wasted space with seeds that don't germinate. For the growing medium I just use 50/50 peat/perlite and Dynamite fertilizer. I pretty much throw out in full sun right away and have no problems. Being in Houston I really don't have to worry about freezing weather too often. Last year I grew some seedlings with the same method in Wisconsin and just used cheap shop lights from home depot and 5$ T-8 full spectrum lights with no problem.

some further GENERAL thoughts...

whatever works.. works ... no body who succeeds is ever wrong ... whether you agree with their method or not ...

nothing NEW was ever discovered by the guy who did it like everyone else ....

when you have a failure... review the facts that you presumed were true at inception ... e.g. if you assume you have the best soil in the world for your purpose .. but you have soil based pathogenic problems.. then instead of figuring out how to fix the problem.. for nest time figure out how to avoid the problem ... in other words.. the facts you presumed at initiation may or may not be a proper assumptions ...

next .. never criticize anyone who goes to the effort of taking the time to offer suggestions .... they may be 99% wrong ... but that 1% of the answer.. might be the trigger to solving your problem ....

finally ... try smaller trays ... and try different methods ... try one your way.. try one with soil you sterilized.. try one some other recommended way ... keep good notes ... sooner or later you will be rid of the problem ...

as to moving seedlings.. doesnt matter what kind ....you move them when you can do it without killing them ... no one said you have to do them all at once ... do a few at 6 weeks... a few more at 7 weeks.. sooner or later you will come to understand when the right moment is ...

i tend to go to a size that is big enough for my dexterity ... but small enough that you can tease the roots out with out having to do soil surgery ...

i always use fresh sterilized soil at transplant ... for two reasons ... one.. any retained salts from the water is gone.. and if there is any bug or pathogen problem.. it is gone also ...

i have been told that rough transplant ... stimulates hormone release since you are threatening its life ... the more i coddle a plant.. of any size ... the more problems i can have.. i call it ... KILLING IT WITH TOO MUCH LOVE ....

keep up the good work

ken

Ken, that was my exact thoughts too. If it works, then it works. I don't think I mentioned that... forgot.

Dax

Here is a picture of my seedlings so far. On a side note, one of my seedlings is growing with 3 leaves at a time instead of 2 if that makes sense. I haven't seen that on any other seedling before and was wondering if anyone else has seen that.

[IMG]http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l64/ltruett/DSCN2609.jpg[/IMG]

Once again...

Yeah that soaking-them-than-waiting method is a good one. I probably would have done that if I wasn't lazy. I did that last year as I was hesitant to mess with their root systems as seedlings (than I found out you could do it without killing them, setting them back a bit in their growth, but not killin' em). That's probably the best method, actually, the way you did it, but I guess anything works.

Yeah you might have a mutant, as far as the 3 needled one goes. I've got one from last year that I nicknamed "the champ" because he's nine months old and 22 inches tall right now. I've got him covered in hay in a backyard in chicago right now so I hope he makes it. He got a late start on going dormant as I moved him out here in a truck from california on Nov. 1st. We'll see I guess. I'll be kicking myself if he croaks. I've also got one this year that's growing slower than most and growing a bit odd, it's cotyledons never split apart (it wasn't because it had a seed cap on it still) but stayed fused together and it's doing some sort of weird branching out thing from it's sides. We'll see how that goes.

Ltruet, you said you got T8 lights and some shop lights from home depot? I'd be interested to hear about your set up, any additional sunlight your guys received, etc. They look good in that photo up there so it must've worked. Let me know...

The current seedlings in the picture above are ones I started here in Houston 3-4 weeks ago. It rarely gets below freezing at night and generally in the 60s-70s during the day so I mainly just leave them outside unless there is bad weather. Last winter when I was in Wisconsin, I grew some in the basement with the setup shown below (except dawn redwoods in trays instead of maples in pots). Basically I just used 2 48inch shop lights with full spectrum tubes and kept them a few inches above the seedling and raised the lights as needed. They got no sunlight until spring and I think I used a 16 hour timer for the most part. I prefer this method when initially starting just to protect them at first but then get them outside in the sun ASAP. If I were to do it again in Wisconsin I would probably start in March and then by the time the daytime temps warm up in April/May I could start to get them outside in the sun. I'm not sure growing them inside all winter really got me that much of a head start. I planted them around the farm though I'm not sure if they will actually survive the cold. I did see a larger tree growing on the Univ if Wisc campus in Madison (30 miles away) but it is a little warmer there and in a more protected spot.

Here are some pics of some of the ones I grew under lights last winter. The first one is probably sometime in Jan/Feb and the last one in late spring I would guess. I am getting better growth getting them out in full sun compared to the lights.

I've been following all this discussion with some interest as I plan on germinating some Metasequoia seed around 1 March in a greenhouse. Couple questions for ltruett - what sort of growth rate do you typically get the first year and what's the root mass like? In your last picture, how deep are those chambers and how long do you leave the seedling growing it that configuration? What do you recommend for the next pot size?

That's about all I can think of right now - Thanks

Mrgpap,

The cells in the 18 cell tray are 25 cu.in. (3.25" X 3.25" X 4"). The cell in the 32 cell tray are 11 cu. in. (2.25" x 2.25" x 4"). If you are interested the trays are from Rootmaker and you can read about the purpose of them at their website. I basically follow their 4 inch rule as far as moving to the next size pot but its not the only way of doing it.
http://www.rootmaker.com/index.php

I will probably leave them in the trays for a few months before moving to a 1g rootmaker pot where it could stay the rest of the season/year. The idea is to have a well developed root system without leaving them in the cells/pots too long and slowing down growth before moving to the next size. If you are planning to grow in pots, I encourage you to read the posts by tapla on the container forum. While I agree with sequoia_stiffy the need of beneficial fungi etc for trees (in the ground), I don't think that it helps as much when growing in containers. Just my opinion though.
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/contain/msg0420085231701.html?137

I can't say for sure about the growth rate. Last year was my first experimenting with them. I was under a time crunch leaving Wisconsin so I planted them outside a little early and they got set back some by a late frost, but all recovered after losing their needles. Dax or sequoia_stiffy might be able to give you a better idea. I would expect a foot or two under ideal conditions with proper fertilization and growing medium if staying in pots for the first year.

Thank you all for the time it took to post them pics and all the details!

Basically, you want to repot anytime the roots start poking through the bottom of the container. I re-potted "the champion" about four or five times in one growing season as he kept growing like hell. Of course, you want to do it with minimal disturbance, but you won't be disturbing much if you re-pot as soon as you see roots poking through. If you wait, then that's when you get a tough, tangled root-ball and that's when the most disturbance comes when you re-pot it later on.

"The champ" got the beneficial fungi early on, and it certainly didn't hurt him. It costs eight bucks for a jar that will last you for a hundred seedlings, won't hurt. Don't think it's necessary but it won't hurt. Just be careful, it smells good to rodents and mice and can attract them once in the ground, before it gets a chance to dissolve into the soil.

Thanks to you both for suggestions - I noticed the Rootmaker pots being used in Ltruett's pictures and I have these available as well as Stuewe's Deep and Mini pots. I was considering transplanting into a Stuewe D60L Deep Pot which is 14 inches deep and 2.5 inches wide.
Thanks again

Marshall

Here is a link that might be useful: Stuewe

I dont know man, your call. The 14 inch seems like it's going a bit overboard unless you're producing seedlings en masse and selling them. Otherwise you might want to give them more space to spread out. The depth is good but Metas like to grow out, too. I just used a bunch of 1 gallon containers I uh, borrowed, from nurseries, etc.

The 14 inch by 2.5 inch containers seem like they're made for large nursery operations, etc, where using a 2.5 " width container would save precious space.

I pretty much do what ltruett does. The paper towel method in plastic container is pretty effective but you'd have to read Deno's book as there are different requirements for certain species. Some are very easy to germinate and others are not. The biggest advantage is a lot of space saved and a lot less messy. Rootmaker products are pretty good as well. Much preferred over old fashioned Styrofoam cups.

Marshall,

I grow them in plug trays where there are 2" x 2.5" (apprx.) deep plastic cells from Mar 1 thru the last frost (50 slots per tray for the basic flats shown above 21" x 10.5" or whatever they are. Then, I pot them to styrofoam cups (16 oz.) and the root system will fill up that styrofoam cup perfectly for re-potting the next spring. The seedlings will get 8" tall. Some more some less.

I'll eventually spend the money and get the right deep cell trays/pots, like you have. It's definitely worth penny. Those that you're thinking of potting them to, sound ideal. Nice tall root systems, that's what's important.

Dax

Lou - what's the age of the plant you're showing and how long has it been in that pot?
I have a lot of seed and if I get a good germination rate - may try several techniques for growing on. I have the time and space to do so.
Thanks for the comments and pictures.
Marshall

The root ball in those pictures is kind of tangled, you can see how many of the roots struck bottom and than started curving back upwards. It looks like a good healthy plant but in my experience that root ball might be kind of problematic in the future. It's just something you'll have to un-tangle later on and doing so might shock and awe (like that one?) the plant a bit. That's why the deeper the better, just make sure you give them room to grow out, too. I'd just suggest 1/2 gallon or gallon containers if have got the space.

It might look like the root ball is all tangled up and growing back up but it isn't. That was grown in a rootmaker tray and the roots are diverted to one of the many opening in the cell which air prunes the roots specifically preventing the circling of the roots and causing lateral root growth.

For more info:
http://www.rootmaker.com/system_propagation.php#jump
http://www.rootmaker.com/photogallery.php?action=viewgallery&gallery=4
http://www.rootmaker.com/docs/4inchRuleWeb.pdf

I would guess just a few months old. When the roots get air pruned, new roots are formed and start branching out. More roots = more nutrients absorbed = faster growth. When you're able to pull them out with the root ball intact, it's time to repot. It's better to err on the early side than too late. You don't want to end up with too many roots if left in there too long. I repot them into 1,3 or 5g Rootmaker. One big advantage is fast establishment in the ground. You don't have to hack away circling roots or anything like that. Just drop it in the planting hole and many roots will grow out in all directions right away just like that.

Thanks Lou - that's pretty fast root development. Reason I asked - trying to determine some re-potting time frames.

One more question - using the wet paper towel in a plastic container method for sprouting the seed - what's a typical time frame for sprouting to occur? I meant to ask this earlier but suffer from CRS syndrome.

Marshall

This is based on the "Min cut 80%" I received from www.treeshrubseeds.com. Typically I soak the seeds for a few hours or overnight then place them on a moist paper towel and close the container. I usually place the container in a window that gives bright but indirect sunlight. I usually start seeing the first seed germinate in 2-3 days and most germinate in a week or two. I usually plant as soon as I see the root tip poking out but you have to look closely so you don't miss it. Seed I received from other sources didn't germinate as well.

Mrgpag-

I don't recall when exactly but I've had to pot up from 1g rootmaker into 5g rootmaker at the end of the summer. If anything, I'd just use 3 or 5g size instead of 1g from now on unless I want to plant 1g size out in the fall. Same goes for bald cypress that I grew from seeds that I collected. Less time wasted that way for sure. I'm sure I'd achieve better results if I had sandy soil where I'd grow in the ground to keep the mix cool because it gets very hot over here in Texas during the summer that can slow down growth. I've noticed that when I started 2 batches of shantung maple at different timing. Proper fertilizer and container mix can play a huge role. I've learned all of that in Dr. Whitcomb's Container production book. Only if it's that easy to get those fertilizers that Whitcomb had recommended...

Thanks - If I am fortunate enough to get the seed to germinate, these plants won't be around much past the fall of 2010. The boss wants them for Director's Gift - given to special donors and sponsors of various activities. We have a tree that was planted in 1974 and a couple smaller ones on the grounds from which I obtained seed. All you comments have been very helpful and Thanks.

Lou - ever been to Metro Maples? I have a sister who's traveling the country in a motor home, they were in FT. Worth area a month ago and I had them bring me one of MM's acer truncatum "Fire Dragon' - arrived today.

How many are you trying to grow? If you have a lot of seed, you should try a test run to see how well they germinate. If you are having trouble then I would recommend getting a trial packet from www.treeshrubseeds.com. It probably contains over 100 seeds easily. I am still using my packet from last year.

Fall of 2010 is basically two growing seasons so you will need some decent sized pots by then. I would guess at least 10g for the 2010 growing season but others might have a better idea. I would take a look at the container forum and start getting an idea on what you need for the growing medium.
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/contain/msg0420085231701.html?137

Has Lou ever been to Metro Maples? He is probably their best customer. I think he has 4 Fire Dragon's at his house. It will be interesting to see how your FD does in OH. I planted one in Wisconsin this past year. It reportedly had a nice red color, now I am waiting to see how it will handle the cold. What are you going to do with yours over the winter?

I have a couple germination test going on right now. As for other seed sources - no, the boss wants plants grown from seed collected from our own trees and I being a volunteer need to comply with that direction. As for a growing medium, a combination of pine bark, some peat and perlite, osmocote, and a dash of micronutrients. I've used this mix for growing other metasequoia and taxodium in the past with good results.

Fire Dragon - a. truncatum do well here but you seldom find one in a nursery for sale. Dawes Arboretum on-line database seems to indicate they may have a hard time growing this species for an extended period of time. In previous years, I've grown and sold them for fund-raiser plants and most are doing well by all reports I get back. My plant is in a 7 gallon container and I'll store it in a hoophouse this winter. It's been riding around in the shower of my sister's motor coach when they're on the road and placed outside when they stopped at night or layed over somewhere.

It will be interesting to see how the germination goes for the seed you collected.

BTW, the maples above under the lights are Shantungs I grew from seed and planted around the farm in Wisconsin.

What kind of flourescent (sp) lights should I buy? Ex: brand, etc....

If you are using the lights to start seedlings then I would just go to HD/Lowes etc and get a cheap full spectrum one (less than 10$ for 2 tubes). Doesn't really matter about the brand. It is just more important that you keep the lights close to the trees (1-2 inches away)and adjust as they grow.

Does the paper towel method work for sprouting Coast Redwood seeds too?

I have my seedlings under some fluorescent lights, but I am unsure of the kind of bulbs. I found the bulbs already in the light I found in my basement.The writing is faded so I can't read what type the lights are. If the lighting is wrong, can it hurt the seedlings?

No, having the "wrong" kind of light isn't going to "hurt" your seedings, but it may not do any good. Pot-growers figured this stuff out early on (dope-smokers appear to be good for something)..fluorescent light is pretty weak, that is the spectrum intensity drops off dramatically with distance, so in order to be efficient the seedlings need to be within 4-6 inches, closer if possible, to have good effect. Basically, the words you want look for on buying a light are "t-5" or "t-8" and "6500 kelvin"...these are all ways of measuring the light intensity of a foney light in terms of plant photosynthesis. plants absorb the most light at around 430 nm and 640 nm of light, that is the "blue" and "red" areas of the visible light spectrum. green, which is right in the middle at around 520 nm, is pretty much useless...go figure.

I'd suggest lookin it up on wikipedia, just type in "grow light", etc. Sodium lights and metal halide lights are available, too, but they're expensive as hell and you don't really need these unless you're a pot farmer. Why the hell else would somebody need such strong lights in the winter or any other season? Just get a good, strong fluorescent light, but know that most fluorescent lights, unless they're manufactured specifically as plant lights, are not going to cut it unless they're reading as "t-5", "6000 kelvin", etc. In other words, you can't just go get whatever the cheapest lights at home depot are and use them, at least not with satisfactory results, and, no matter what, if you have a sunny window, you should give your seeds exposure to that, too, on top of using the grow lights, if possible (being that it's winter).

good luck.

Humm...so I went cheap and bought bulk 5000K t5s from 1000bulbs.com; that was the longest wavelength they had.
Are they worthless to use as grow bulbs?

Ouch!
Barbara

T5s don't matter as much (more efficient but cost more). I used T8s and T12s with no problem. I would think 6500k would be best but really, if all you are doing is starting seedlings for a month or two and you keep the lights close, you should be fine. I grew dawn redwoods under T8s in the basement all winter with no sunlight at all and they were fine. The problem is when the trees/plants get larger and it takes more light to get to all the leaves due to the height of the plant you start to get to more expensive set ups. So the basic idea, start under grow lights and then get outside in the sun as soon as possible.

The Growing Under Lights forum has good info too.
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/lights/

I saw at Lowes that they have daylight bulbs, would this work fine? They also had like special bulbs for the laundry room, and the office. They were all fluorescents.

Are you talking about compact or the tubes? Usually daylight means full spectrum which is the 6500K which is what I used (see pic above).

The tubes. I have a 36 inch fluorescent light. I saw Lowes had a daylight bulb and a Sunlight bulb. I could not find the Sunlight in my bulb size, but I found the Daylight in my size. I did not read anything about it being full spectrum, so I didn't get it.

Update on this post:

The seedling flat I recommended proved to be to shallow in depth (I had a feeling this might happen, however I could not find a deeper flat - all the ones made are pretty much the uniform size).

The seed tray I described above should really only be used for starting seeds if you're going to be using the accompanying humidity dome. If it's not that dry out where you live, i.e. not Chicago in the winter time, or any other very arid climate, then the humidity dome is unnecessary and the seedling flat is unnecessary, too. The main reason I used the seedling flat was that the dome was made to fit directly on top of it. Looking back I could've just used the dome and sewed the seeds in deeper containers and placed them under it.

Problems that I encountered with the seedling flat were that after about two or two 1/2 months of growth growth slowed down significantly, as a result of the roots not having any more space to grow down, probably also because the deeper the roots grew, the closer they got to the heat mat and the hotter they got. If the flat had been deeper, I could've kept the heat mat on without worrying about it potentially harming the seedling roots.

The seedling flat is just not deep enough. It's only about two or three inches deep.

All I did to remedy this was move the seedlings. I mixed a bag of mycorrhizal root dip gel in a kitchen bowl, then removed the entire clump of soil that the seedlings were growing in by pushing up from the bottom of the seedling flat, placed the soil clump in the root dip gel, then gently separated the inter-twining roots and potted up each seedling separately.

Next year I'm simply going to start the seeds in a deeper medium, maybe some sort of self-made flat but with a deeper bottom. Everything else worked great, the only bad decision on was using such a shallow seedling tray. Ah well, learning requires experience, after all.

Stiffy, how are your other Dawns? The ones you metioned in one post that were not going dormant? I have some with that same problem, but they are finally showing some browning....

Thanks for the update. I've been wondering how long to leave mine (a good number from your seed!) in the flat. So far I've transplanted maybe a half dozen into 3 inch peat pots as an experiment. I've killed one. Knew when it happened too.

By about 2 months I hope to have mine planted either in the garden or in containers to trade around the neighborhoods. Thanks for the tips.

Stiffy, how are your other Dawns? The ones you metioned in one post that were not going dormant?

Never dropped their needles. Stopped growing for a while, but are now starting to show new growth again. I'll plant them outside in May. Not sure what long terms affects this will have on next year's dormancy. My guess is not much, they're a very hardy, adaptable tree.

Mine have just stopped all together. They've got browning on the needles, but haven't grown in forever. Oh, I got the seeds you sent. Thank you so much! I am so excited to try them. Wish me luck! Thanks! Ryan

Could be shallow soil depth and water-logged soil (kind of go hand in hand). Could also be not enough light/warmth. You using bottom heat? Lights? Sunlight, too?

I've got them on a table that gets nice morning sun. I don't think the soil is water logged. I only water when it gets dry. Its probably not enough light. Can't wait to get them out there this spring for some new growth though! I laughed so hard when reading the sticker you sent me. Thats great....thanks!

Here is an updated photo of my DR that I started a little over a year ago. They are about 2 feet tall. I have some newer ones I started back in November that are just as tall I guess due to the fact I took better care of them.