"NUTS: Keep in mind some of the garden centers have been growing in a different peat based mix a long time, as many as 110 years now ? "

Peat based soils are bad and kill plant roots. You cant water everyday in peatbased soil, like beginners like to do.;)

Posted by meyermike_1micha 5 (mikerno_1@yahoo.com) on Sat, Aug 11, 12 at 13:01
"A Troll? How about the definition of Nuts?
Nuts: No useful thing said!
Mike"

Thanks for contrubiting to the OP's question Mike?

*"No useful thing said"*

No, that's an unqualified statement and not true.

Peat-based soils are more difficult to use, and will often hold too much moisture which is a common
cause of root-death and, thus, plant death.

Let's be specific with our statements and try to deliver good information, rather than needlessly
shallow and disputatious sound-bites.

Further, MG, why promote a mix (the 5-1-1) that you do not seem to understand?

Josh

Master: You make me laugh:-) By the way, I love that pepper plant! I just may hold my favorite over the winter, but not sure how it will hold up in the mix I used. There was a lot of peat, but we shall see if there is any con's.

Hello Josh!Hope life is treating you well! Yes, the Fafard makes a great mix for those who like pre-made mixes!

Thanmks a lot Wes. I shall have to check out that shop! I miss Glenn there at Bonsai West.

"Master: You make me laugh:-) By the way, I love that pepper plant! I just may hold my favorite over the winter, but not sure how it will hold up in the mix I used. There was a lot of peat, but we shall see if there is any con's."

I am happy to hear that :) A good laugh is always great! :)

"but not sure how it will hold up in the mix I used. There was a lot of peat, but we shall see if there is any con's."

Yea they should be fine, that plant I showed in 100% topsoil :)

Greenman,

I have grown soilless drain to waste, all the way to flood and drain indoor growing cherry tomatoes. I UNDERSTAND air porosity and what makes the 5-1-1 work, trust me :)

After growing hydroponics, I can see how soil mixes have advantages over soilless mixes. Thats all. If I was helping someone get started I would tell them to use potting mix and understand plant nutrition, then go for a soilless mix. In a soilless mix it is up to the grower to give 100% of the nutrients. The ph buffer is way less in soilless mixes.

Trust me, I understand growing very much Greenman. Take a look at my glog in the pepper forum ;)

Unfortunately, your posts do not demonstrate that you understand drainage or nutrition;
and coupled with your unqualified and overly simplistic statements, I strongly wonder just
how much growing you've actually done. I think I've made it clear that I'm not interested in
what you're growing, nor have I any interest in having my good name associated with yours when
it comes to the 5-1-1. The only reason I've addressed you directly, rather than ignore you, is
because I am concerned that others are receiving inaccurate, garbled, misinterpreted,
and incomplete information from you - therefore, the correct information must be added lest
new growers become confused by your contradictory statements and incoherent presentation.

Josh

Indeed Mike M you can visit Glen at the MCC&S show and sales 3rd Sat of Sept.

I've noted your comment on Agway and will use this as a resource for others seeking 5-1-1 information in the where to get post to come, also Agway has other potting products to make a 5-1-1.
If you want I can grab two Al's sized bags at NE Bonsia and a pumice if wanted then bring them to the Chevy dealer near you Hmmm Wed or Thurs after 3 PM before 8PM is best for me Your pick.

MG and other bagged soils Note to all plant growing enthusiast,meaning no longer are there trolls. As plant growing enthusiast who may be asking for information even for a future time with a goal to growing healthier plants.

Please attempt to amend the mentioned bagged soils of your preference to provide your plants with better drainage. In comparison amending MG will add to bagged MG soil cost but will still help the plant health slightly toward better.

I cant count the number of small water blocking dams I've seen built by my changing out and root rinsing or bare rooting a MG growing container plant to a 5-1-1 on the side of a yard. The sludge and sands in MG is thick and deep on the yard as it would also be in a container. Conclusion MG soil in container growing is muddy sludge getting more compacted every time it's watered.

Fafard mix: I cant really speak of a product I dont regularly use or replace but if I can say to Josh and Mike and others of positive and sound influence on this forum if we are to suggest farfard to those who may need to use Farfard as an alternative to 5-1-1 would it also be better to suggest amending Farfard mix well ?

GMaster: I understand that some plant growing enthusiast are not here to impress others with superior knowledge of growing certain plants or a lack of knowledge of the same. Point being is folks on this forum still try to tell you and others even though you are under no obligation at any time saying thanks is a reason to remain humble. In the future make sure you know what people mean before you re-quote them. Like Josh tried to say to you if you dont know what is meant then ask.

I had luck with promix bx mixed with compost.

I am offering my advice- some "are wondering just
how much growing I have actually done"

{{gwi:46009}}

{{gwi:46010}}

Small harvest early in the season.
{{gwi:46011}}

I'm not one who wonders who grows how much by chance numbers just dont impress me I'm just someone who is interested in a plants health. I'm glad you have an interest and hopeful that you do move forward to a healthy plant growing goal even if it's just one plant

Not to be rude GM but if I may ask someone else a question it would have to be Ms Nancy..... she has the dog bones in her pics.
Question Ms. Nancy Hows is that NBC ?

I grow under a fairly strict organic program that works best with compost added to the peat moss based growing mix. I grow seasonal fruits/veg only.

Peat based mixes may require more work/surveillance than 5-1-1 especially before the plant's root system is established. Obviously you don't water a plant as often while it is establishing a root system. Maybe once every 3 to 5 days. Most novices water daily and then wonder why their plants are sitting in water. Once established more often. For example, toms more often, carrots less often.

I am not familiar with a lot of gardening scientific principles that are espoused on this bd. However, I have done some trial and error in my time so I have a pretty good idea what works for me.

Now if anybody wants to get their panties in a wad because I use and like peat based planting mix, be my guest.

No one will be upset by what you prefer, Greengrass :-)
We're not fanatics here - we encourage everyone to make the choice that works for them
and satisfies the balance between grower convenience and plant health. No one is going to
tell you that you should grow in this mix or that.

Josh

Good morning, fellow plant lovers and gardeners! Due to health issues, I haven't been around nearly as much as I'd like to... but I simply can't sit, lay, or stand too long in one position without crumbling. Unfortunately, I have a very uncomfortable computer desk chair that isn't helping matters very much!

First... Laura, I always love to see the wonderful Plumeria photos you share! They are so very lovely! Your beautiful yard always reminds me of a tropical oasis that I'd love to visit and vacation at! I have visions of a Bed & Breakfast with a catchy name containing the word "Plumeria"! :-)

Second... it's always good to actually see photos of the types of ingredients we include in the various renditions of the 511 and Gritty Mixes many of us use. So, thank you for that, Al... it's always helpful to those just learning.

Hey to you guys, Mike and Josh! Long time, no see... at least here! I get to talk to Mike and Mom every once in a while, and it's always such a lift to my spirit to hear their voices! :-) Josh, I haven't emailed in a while, and I really should... I've got some great photos to share!

Anyway... I can't fathom why there's an argument or any sort of tiff every time Al's medium concepts are introduced as subject matter. There's no law stating anyone must follow any technique in growing they do not choose to.

But the idea is to keep clear of perpetuating any myths or bits of misinformation that may confuse those who are trying to learn.

Anyone with the desire to learn knows that there are usually various sides or angles to a story, knows they will encounter myth, fallacy, and untruths along the way, knows that anything can be published on the internet, including misinformation, and knows that it will take reading more than one source to gain a clear picture, or plumb the depths of the information they seek. This is nothing more than logical thought, common sense, and includes using problem solving skills and decent research methods.

One reads, and one gathers information. One then keeps the logical or rational ideas, takes a lot of what they encounter with a huge grain of salt, employs common sense, leaves behind that which is unusable, and comes to a workable conclusion.

While some books and scientific information on plants and growing read like rocket science, it's not really all that complicated, as Al shows us in his first article, written some years ago and still playing a relevant part in many a debate and discussion.

"Container Soils - Water Movement & Retention" shows us the basic physics and science involved in container growing, which differs greatly from growing directly in the ground or garden. It takes a lot of rather complicated scientific information, and breaks it down into simple to grasp information and concepts for the layman, or the beginner.

I read it a few years ago, during a time when I was struggling to keep several plants and bulbs alive and thriving in containers, and it was like seeing the blue sky for the first time! Everything began to make sense... my failures, the reasons for them, and how I could begin to correct them.

I've been growing plants in pots and gardening ever since I can remember, and I'm now a grandmother to three wonderful little ones! And throughout those many decades, I struggled along, reading and listening to people and an industry that I would have thought would be honest and on my side. But like any other, it must be remembered that it exists to profit from consumerism.

In any case, it must be remembered that in many situations, there are trade offs to the choices we make. Certain products are designed for convenience, and not necessarily for the top shelf in plant health... while deeper research and experience show us that a more inorganic, aerated, grittier medium will give us exactly what a containerized plant requires in a soil, remembering the purposes a medium serves a plant to begin with.

The trade off, in this case, is a little more care, a little more often... but there are also benefits. It allows us to keep a closer eye on our plants, noticing things and correcting them before they can become problems... like insects, for example.

We also have to remember that no two people grow in the exact same micro-environment. So, to be quite blunt, there is really no "one size fits all" when it comes to growing plants in a containerized environment. That's why bagged mixes make little sense to me... especially when the same product is sold coast to coast. Think about that... is growing the same in Southern California as it is in Minnesota? Most assuredly not!

I could go on and on about the various reasons I've deduced that mixing my own mediums is a much more workable idea than simply accepting what the industry pushes, but I think people need to research, read the information provided, and make up their own minds, based upon how much interest they have in growing, how much time they wish to devote to it, and how healthy they want their plants to be, from the roots up... because a plant's health begins under the soil surface where we can't see... and eventually affects the plant parts we CAN see.

Happy Gardening!

Good discussion!. Here is some of my inputs about the discussion. Some provided date, some didn't . For thoes who did not provide date, please provide it. Facts speak louder. It is what it is. No need ot hide.

--I would like some quantitive measurments. We all know that the per CF cost differs at totoal Qty you buy... ie. buy a bag or two from retail store is very different by a truck load from whole sale. So please specify and use regualr price , not on sale price.

-- Please limit the discussion to the facts only.

-- Please not to use pictures as proof of the soil is better. I love to see the pictures , but it is exclusion facts, IMO. I know it is a good soil when the plants can grow so big, lushes and fruitful, but I or someone else can post a picture of plant grows in other medium that grows equally big, lushes, and fruitful.

-- Please keep such thing as look forward " to mix a batch" etc. off this thread. When I read these type of sentences, I am not sure I am dealing with a phychologically disordered person or who has no other life but enjoying mix a batch.

At end of discussion, I hope to comprehensive enough to post a comparison chat or sort so we can compare apple to apple based on the facts. I am thinking about classify into three categories : 1)cost, includes cost of soil material, cost of fertilizer, cost of time which includes the time to accquire material, time make into usable soil, time to pot the plant, time to maintain the plant's growing condition, time for any other maintenence , etc.; 2)plant grow, includes Plant root growth and healty, pests and disease, and overall plant growing condition and health. 3) Durability and doability whcih will include type of plants are best suited for type of soil / condition; how long each type of soil can last; how many pots of plants one can keep to make it doable. I limit it to 2 hours max a day to work on any plants related activities. I think it is a reasonable hours for a person who has family ,full time job, and other life. For those who are retired, or grow plants professionally, you are welcome to have you input but I can't expand hour to 8 hours a day to take care the plants. This is a garden web site, is implied most of us are ameture growers. if any of you have suggestions , Post it. I will incorporate good suggestions into where it fits.

Good discussion!. Here is some of my inputs about the discussion. Some provided date, some didn't . For thoes who did not provide date, please provide it. Facts speak louder. It is what it is. No need ot hide.

--I would like some quantitive measurments. We all know that the per CF cost differs at totoal Qty you buy... ie. buy a bag or two from retail store is very different by a truck load from whole sale. So please specify and use regualr price , not on sale price.

-- Please limit the discussion to the facts only.

-- Please not to use pictures as proof of the soil is better. I love to see the pictures , but it is exclusion facts, IMO. I know it is a good soil when the plants can grow so big, lushes and fruitful, but I or someone else can post a picture of plant grows in other medium that grows equally big, lushes, and fruitful.

-- Please keep such thing as look forward " to mix a batch" etc. off this thread. When I read these type of sentences, I am not sure I am dealing with a phychologically disordered person or who has no other life but enjoying mix a batch.

At end of discussion, I hope to comprehensive enough to post a comparison chat or sort so we can compare apple to apple based on the facts. I am thinking about classify into three categories : 1)cost, includes cost of soil material, cost of fertilizer, cost of time which includes the time to accquire material, time make into usable soil, time to pot the plant, time to maintain the plant's growing condition, time for any other maintenence , etc.; 2)plant grow, includes Plant root growth and healty, pests and disease, and overall plant growing condition and health. 3) Durability and doability whcih will include type of plants are best suited for type of soil / condition; how long each type of soil can last; how many pots of plants one can keep to make it doable. I limit it to 2 hours max a day to work on any plants related activities. I think it is a reasonable hours for a person who has family ,full time job, and other life. For those who are retired, or grow plants professionally, you are welcome to have you input but I can't expand hour to 8 hours a day to take care the plants. This is a garden web site, is implied most of us are ameture growers. if any of you have suggestions , Post it. I will incorporate good suggestions into where it fits.

Welcome back, Jodi, and well said!

I do hope you'll shoot me an e-mail and share some of those pics ;-)
By the way, I just saw your post in Al's Container Thread, regarding the video of the 5-1-1.
Thanks! I don't have a video of the Gritty....that would be quite a production. Maybe in
the future I will put together a demo....once I have Turface again.

Josh

"Please keep such thing as look forward " to mix a batch" etc. off this thread. When I read these type of sentences, I am not sure I am dealing with a phychologically disordered person or who has no other life but enjoying mix a batch."

olympia_gardener,

What does this mean? I looked back and could not see anyone saying "mix a batch"?

I showed already how much peatmoss cost- 1.50 per cuft.....

-- "Please not to use pictures as proof of the soil is better. I love to see the pictures , but it is exclusion facts, IMO. I know it is a good soil when the plants can grow so big, lushes and fruitful, but I or someone else can post a picture of plant grows in other medium that grows equally big, lushes, and fruitful. "

I thought loveplants2 flowers looked very healthy and was a tribute to show just how well the 5-1-1 works...

I showed pictures of plants grown in promix.

I showed pictures of plants grown in topsoil just to show a plant can grow in topsoil but it is ideal to use a lighter media.

Hello Laura! I meant to tell you that your plants are amazing!!!!:-)

Josh! Yes, your videos are appreciated!

I am with Al on cost! For example, I just picked up 2 CUBIC bags of perfect bark size for only 4 dollars a bag!
I bag of perlite, a 40 lb. bag for 11 dollars
! bag of peat for 3.99

Total : 22.99 plus tax.

Now this is enough to make me at least 50 bags of the size MG bags they sell at Home Depot for 6.99 a bag.

Lets see, 6.99 x 50 = 349 dollars and tax. That is not including how many times I have to repot due to compaction and not including the extra cost for ingredients to amen it for porosity.

Now, two bags of Fafard mix, the only one that I will use instead of my 5.1.1 mix costs 44.99.

Now dirt from my back yard and compost are a heck of a lot cheaper, and I might even use that too for just annuals, but I find I get better yields and larger plants in mixes are more porous that this.

Hey Wes, you are kind for your offer. I really appreciate that. I was lucky and fell upon the bark close to home. By the way, maybe I will see you at the next meeting:-)

Al, thank you for your pics! Wonderful. I have had many thank me in private for what you did and run out and get that bark..lol. Now they ran out!

Jodik! Welcome home! I am so sorry you are suffering in many ways. You are strong and very kind to spend time with us through it all. Thank you for always saying something positive. Well said!

Mike

Hello Guys!!!

Especially to Jodi!! I have missed you and i hope you both are feeling better.. Josh...HI there!!! Mike,,I love all of you comments..

Thank you for the kind words about my pics, however it seems that the OP wants to keep these pics off of her thread and lets keep the main interest in what the gritty and Five 11 are all about and priced vs storebought products..

SO.. Olympia Gardener,, i apolized for posting pic to your thread.., I though that i waould just show only a fraction of what i grow......... in the gritty Mix, but it seems that you would rather me keep them off of your thread. So.. I will. Please forgive me fo posting... They were for Al to see the diiffference anyway. I wont post again (pics.)

Take care everyone...

Have fun with this thread...

See YA!!

Laura

Thanks, Laura! I'm doing about as well as I can, all things considered. It's not easy when your body betrays you with health issues and chronic pain, but I keep pushing forward, trying to remain positive! :-)

Josh, as soon as I can get to my camera and get everything off it and uploaded, after resizing and whatnot, I'll shoot you the link. The roses and perennials were spectacular in spite of the heat! :-)

Mike, you're too kind... but that's one of the things I admire most about you. :-)

Well, I can't say that I keep exact track of medium ingredient costs. I buy what I need, when I need it, and I usually only need to mix small batches at a time, meaning less than a 5 gallon pail's worth for a few small plants. I'm using the Gritty Mix in my own rendition for my own personal plants indoors... or a small amount of my rendition of a 511 mixture for a small tree or two, or a few gallon to 2 gallon sized pots outside.

I think it's when you get into the bulk mixing and using that cost might be a factor. Personally, I don't really care that I spend a few dollars more to get exactly the medium I want, though I do keep an eye out for sales on the various things I get. The health of my plants and their root systems means more to me than keeping exact records of how many dollars and cents I spent to make that small amount of medium.

If a person is ultra-budgeted, I could see the need to keep searching for the most cost effective bargains. But to me, a grower with only a small indoor collection of personal plants, it's not that important. The small bags I get last quite a while.

And since I've drastically downsized my indoor collection of plant materials, and they only require a re-pot every couple of years, it's not really that costly.

Any stock we keep potted for sale is not placed into any kind of specially made medium. We just use a decent quality wholesale bagged mix, since most folks will plant the perennials directly in their gardens once purchased.

I couldn't even tell you what I paid for my last bags of ReptiBark, Manna Pro Poultry Grit, or coarse perlite. I'm always broke, but I get by...

As my health deteriorates, I find myself working for shorter stints in the gardens, and thanking Al silently for giving me the wherewithal to keep from having to constantly re-pot everything! :-)

Laura

I just wanted to say that I for one really like seeing photos of your plants & garden too, and I think there is many other members who enjoy them too. Many other threads would welcome them...
Especially being in zone colder than yours and also being quite new to this forum. The beauty and health of your plants tells me that you are doing something right, and I am sure the soil mix you use has lots to do with it.

Al has explained pros & cons of well draining mixes in great detail, I think. He explains not only how to but why, and I find that his posts are clear and easy to understand. Anytime I need reminder, I just re-read his numerous postings, which I have saved to 'my clippings'.
Obviously, anybody has a choice to follow, or to use them as guide, or to do anything they choose.

So many other members here (only reason I am not mentioning names is that I don't want to leave anyone out!) contributed or are contributing with their experience with these & similar mixes and with peat-based mixes. Some of them are minimal time spent gardener, some are retired (didn't know that means nothing to do all day...). I am interested to hear about their experiences, regardless how much time I have to spend on gardening. Those can be applied to 5min/day or 8hrs/day gardening IMHO.
That's why I am here, and I am only hobby-type gardener.

Sorry, Olympia, that I am off the subject and do not have anything worthwhile to say on this thread...will keep off it too.

Rina

Sorry..Correction

2, 3 cubic bags for 8 dollars !
................................
Laura, keep posting pics, please! You know how I feel about seeing your beauties! By the way, pictures speak a thousand words! Your pics show the pro's of the gritty mix you use!
I suppose if you had pics that showed the con's, you would post them. But I personally know you only grow your plants in the best:-0)

Mike

OG,
You mentioned durability. limiting myself to facts, one of the great pros of the gritty mix is it's durability. When I repot, I save the old mix and replace the bark fines. The grit and turface can be re-used over and over. This saves me time and money.

Jodi,
Hope your feeling better soon!

Mike and Josh,
I hope all is well with you guys.

Rob

So please specify and use regular price , not on sale price.

Agreed as it is we all know any sale price isn't the same price as an original "value" price.

Note: the word value is being used for reason.

5-1-1 price and value:
Mike M said he paid 4.00 for the same sized bag of aged fines I pay 5.00 for. I also know that neither of these bags will not go on sale and never go on sale this year and both bags have a very good chance at being sold at the same price point all of next year.

Comparing Mike M 4.00 bag of aged pine fines to my 5.00 a bag Mike wins 1.00 for company overhead and more fines on hand than the place I get mine from for at 5.00 a bag.
( No problem Mike I might give you that dollar at the show lol)

He and I also inadvertently said, Aged pine fines has a stable price and value that doesn't decrease nor increase though out one year.

4.00 Vs. 5.00 per bag of aged fines I dont think anyone would bicker over a penny per container price. I'm glad to know that there are more resources for locating aged fines for container and garden growers than the one source I knew of.

This statement is also true to any costume mix item I/he/ we/you may pay for. The price of a any common 5-1-1 item and it's value doesn't change, both price and value remain consistent year round. Including: MVP turface Aged pine fines fines All sport turface and perlite

Bagged soils price and value:
In an example lets agree that a 15.00 bagged soil goes on sale for 11.00 today. I would ask why did this bagged soil suddenly loose 4.00 in price and value ?

Answer: (In my nuts mind) Perhaps the bagged soil wasn't ever worth 15.00 if it was, then is it really worth 11.00 at sale time. As it already lost 4.00 in value in a short amount of time with out being used. My nuts mind tends to favor that an 11.00 bagged soil that was 15.00 in price has questionable value at any time.

Bagged soils and when to buy them:
I'll make an exception and repeat a familiar GW phrase. When in doubt dont.

mrlike2u,

I agree 100% That made a lot of sense.

I understand that sale price should not be used when comparing peppers to peppers. However, everybody should be encouraged to buy cheaply as possible.

The best time to buy any item whether 5-1-1 or cow dung is at end of season.

I love buying my 40 lb bags of cow dung for 50 cents. Last yr bot 20 of them for 10 bucks.

End of the season? What's that? ;p

End of the season? What's that? ;p

Granted comparing peppers to peppers is one thing as is comparing bagged soils with costume mixes is another. We really cant compare mushrooms with mushrooms because not all mushrooms will cause an elicit effect and reminding someone of a late 1950's early 1960's type trip.

Reminder: We're attempting to compare bagged soils with 5-1-1 custom mixed soil. Cow dung which is more commonly used as a fertilizer isn't really a soil. I'm sure there are others though out GW forum and my local/close distant area gardening buddies, in common with them I wouldn't consider any unknown aged cow dung for use in any part of a viable container soil at any price including free cow dung.

OK I may have technically strayed off topic but I was merely suggesting that money can be saved buying gardening supplies at end of yr. You seem to have zeroed in on cow dung and then felt a need to express your displeasure with it.

You refer to manure as if it were a contaminant to potting soil. Maybe to you but not to me. I set up my initial containers with 2o% or more compost or cow manure whatever you want to call it. Each subsequent yr I add a little more and I have never dumped initial mix.

I understand that 5-1-1 is preferred mix on this board but not for me. I grow org as mentioned before. Chances of growing successfully is to incorporate some sort of compost to ensure proper cation exchange.

I realized (for the 3rd time) one definite disadvantage of the gritty mix vs. a peat-based medium. --two times were my own experience while watering and one time was a kid who was dusting and moved a plant.

The gritty mix, if you happen to be a pot-tipper if you are sticking a plant under the kitchen faucet for a supplemental fertilizer-free watering, will simply pour out of the container.

I wonder how many times I'll do that before I learn to not be a pot tipper.

(I might duplicate this post because I thought I had hit "submit" earlier - maybe I didn't follow through)

You refer to manure as if it were a contaminant to potting soil.

Ummmmmm no I didn't but like you did I too can intentionally reword what I read too.

I refer to manure as an organic fertilizer and is not commonly used as a viable soil mix ingredient for use in a container I'll add dung certainly isn't a bagged soil.

Rewording what I read
I did in a scene attempt to reword someones opinion regarding trolls to become plant growing enthusiast this was intentional rewording for a reason:
Reason:
In common to yourself I think and agree that you and others who choose to use bagged soils should be on the topic of this subject as nobody can compare 5-1-1 to anything if all we/they are to read is 5-1-1 information from those who use it.

Am I wrong when I see a bag of bagged and marked manure do I also read potting soil ?

If read was 5-1-1 VS bagged soil in comparison with price VS value comment you could also notice bagged cow dung late in the year is also lower in price and value with zero use.

Obviously cow dung chicken manure etc are fertilizers. When it comprises 20-25% of container mix then I consider it as a component of the container mix just as I would peat moss or perlite. Furthermore I add a pellet fertilizer to the mix that is as you may have guessed, the fertilizer.

mrlike2u.. I honestly find it very difficult to follow your train of thought on your comments at times. Something about your phrasing or punctuation just becomes frustrating to read. Please don't take this personally, I'm just being honest. No personal insult is intended whatsoever, and I apologize if any is taken.

Another disadvantage of 5:1:1 that I was thinking about today, is the potential for nitrogen tie up. If you use bark that's not composted long enough or contains a lot of sapwood, nitrogen tie-up can cause serious problems. This is especially true if you try to use CRF as your only source of nutrients. Colder temperatures in spring can hamper fertilizer release, compounding the issue. If you fertigate with soluble fertilizer, there should be no significant problems.

This has caused problems for me a couple of times, but I was able to fix it because I knew what I was looking at. A beginner might get really frustrated with it.

Only if there is a lot of sap wood it will break down quik. Otherewise, it only takes a little N to get things back on track. The break down is so slow.

There are many many pics of healthy plants in the 5-1-1. There are few that dont let them age and use them right out the bag with good results.

There is a chance to get higher results with soilless mixes/hydroponics, only if the grower gives 100% of nutrients just perfect and the ph has to be perfect for nutrient uptake. One wrong move with hydroponics- your plants can have issues. Soil or mixes that have compost are more forgiving to grow in as far as ph and nutrient uptake due to perfect ph. The light soilless media like the 5-1-1 has chance to grow much more healthy plant then soil or mixes with added compost, ect.. But the mixes with soil or compost are easy to grow in.

I understand that the composted manure is a HUGE ph buffer. I look at compost like a great ph buffer, I would never use compost for house plants or plants that will stay in the same container a long time.

I do list the advantages of using rich potting soil- ph buffer is a huge thing!!! Or like my promix mixed with compost. I just picked a huge harvest of peppers and had to water them a lot! I use promix bx mixed with compost and they get so dry!!!If used promix hp or the 5-1-1, the plants would really be dead due to lack of watering. So am I going to now never grow until I get a auto watering system and use a light high porosity mix? The very advantage of rich mixes is the grower convenience. Again- just look up advantages and dis-advantages of hydroponics to get a better idea. Lime is a ph buffer, but compost adds much more of a buffer!

I am not just for one as there advantages to both.

I do understand the 5-1-1 is a perfection or a masterpiece of a mix!

Hope everyone enjoyed!! :)

Yep,
nitrogen binding or nitrogen immobilization isn't much of a concern if fertilizing appropriately.
I've used uncomposted bark exclusively and haven't had issues. As noted, the ingredient ought
to be bark - not sapwood. If using a product with a high inclusion of sapwood, you've already
strayed from the recipe and introduced a 'wildcard' as it were.

As always, let's keep in mind that the 5-1-1 is a "Starting Point" - it is ultimately
adaptable to your particular zone and gardening situation. The recipe, as is, will yield excellent
results - but in Arizona, for example, might require more watering; and so the individual grower
may opt to add more peat to the mix, or employ larger containers, et cetera.

"All Gardening is Local"

Josh

You know, this question has been asked so many times, and posted thousands of times, that just a search can answer your question.

It's the same old, same old.

Have a great day all. Hello good friend Josh!

Mike:-)

Hey, Mike! Great to see you, buddy :-)

Josh

Something about your phrasing or punctuation just becomes frustrating to read.

I know and no offense taken at all even after I read what I post I too see errors in what I type,grammar and composition wasn't my thing in schools.
Disadvantages to cow dung if it where to be used as a container soil for me are:

1) Limited container placement for reason of smell and attractions of the things that might enjoy the smells more than I do.
Decks, rails of decks, steps patios and walkways would not be the best places for me to place containers with cow dung soil housing a plant.

2) There are very few container grown plants that are annuals grown here

Cold storage is one I could handle but storing out of zone plants in the living areas of my house would arouse certain questions regarding odors.

If I could say something about the N from you.My response came from another person. Even if the N responses is wrong from them my plants are very much alive in 5-1-1 soil and or any other 100 % cow dung free custom mix I use

Encourage buying at lower prices I agree it is something we all should encourage. Sometimes we only get what we pay for.

You also said: A beginner might get really frustrated with it.

You where also saying something about being frustrated by my GW typing.

In my own humble opinion, I WOULD refer to any overly organic materials, such as manures, as a contaminant in my container mediums. And I would do so remembering the idea that growing in the ground or garden is infinitely different than growing within the confined space of a receptacle, because Mother Nature is not present helping me to maintain any balances of microbes or creatures and PH. Therefore, any fine or quickly decaying matter are saved for organic use within my gardens... while I maintain a more controllable inorganic environment with my pots.

As a veteran canine breeder, I realize that if I'm going to play god, I have a responsibility to do it the right way, as Nature would do, to emulate Mother Nature. And in gardening or growing, I would equate breeding to container growing, while I would equate Mother Nature to the gardens or growing in the ground outside.

In my many years of experience, I have found that mixing the twain rarely works out as one would like it to... and sometimes it's better to sacrifice that convenience for healthier roots.

In breeding, I must carefully walk that line, balancing between compassion for my dogs, and dedication to doing the right thing in terms of genetic health and stability... and with gardening, I must realize that I cannot accurately duplicate an outdoor garden and its nuances within the small space of a pot.

But then, all of this depends on what outcome I expect, or am happy with.

With dogs, am I doing it for a paycheck? No. I'm doing it all to create or maintain a better, healthy, stable animal, a clean gene pool... with plants, I'm doing it to grow a healthier plant, which begins by growing healthy root systems.

I can't tell people what they should do... heaven knows way more shelters and rescues exist than should. There should be no such thing as "pet quality" animals, as they should all be bred with top quality in mind. And yes, we do have the technology and genetic knowledge, all freely available, to maintain better animals. Form always follows function, and a breed is only a breed if it has the genetic wherewithal to reproduce itself true to type every time, consistently, throughout every litter.

When you apply a little science and physics basics to growing plants, you see that Mother Nature in the garden is a totally different environment than we can provide and maintain within the confined spaces of pots.

Save the manure for the garden... use sturdy, more INorganic ingredients within containers. That's my advice.

Happy Growing!

I am very interested this 5.1.1 and I'd like to try it. So I need a bit more information.

Before I read this thread I was wondering about the complication of the preparation, mainly the screening, selecting the uniform size of the ingredients and regular fertilization.

In this thread Al mentioned that without screening this preparation is OK. So I think I can do this preparation. I like the preparation to be simplified as much as possible otherwise people may hesitate to use it or blindly refuse to try it.

Since last few weeks I have been looking for the necessary ingredients for this mix. Now I found decorative pine bark (not composed but look like Al's pine bark picture), perlite small size, sphagnum and garden lime (not dolomite lime). I am going to prepare this mix without screening. Now I need more information about the regular fertilization, how often should I fertilize and what kind of fertilizer should I use? Should I water the plants until the water dripping from the container hole?
It will be very kind of you if someone answer these questions of fertilization and watering.

I am sorry I cannot give any pros and cons of this 5.1.1 now.
Thank you for this thread.

Caelian

Potting mix containes 55% composted forest material. So really, bagged potting soil is not peat based, its compost based. That compost gives a higher ph buffer allwoing nutrient uptake to be more effective. The high porosity soil mixes are inert and high porosity and will (if fertilized just right) have higher yields but less ph buffer.

This is an old thread but it answers many of my unanswered questions :-) sometimes something goes wrong I consider it is my weakness but it is not the whole truth.

I like this thread and very useful on so many ways.

Caelian

Interesting thread, to say the least.

The thread is over 2 years old but the subject is still fresh and interesting.

With respect to pros and cons of 5-1-1 , there are several issues:

1) Its effectiveness, as far as plants are concerned. An I am considering annual plants like tomatoes, peppers, eggplants. NOT house plants.

2) Cost Effectiveness:

3) Growers' convenience.

I am a pro on (1) and (2) but con on (3). Since 5--1-1 does not come in ready to use form, it requires some efforts to procure the ingredients, quality check, mix, add calcium/magnesium (Lime), store your mix ... In this respect, it is not for everyone.

On number (2) , cost effectiveness, It all depends where you are, what your sources are. Currently I make my own mix for under $3.00 per cf. Even if ready mixed potting soils like MG or Pro Mix cost about the same (which is unlikely) , I still prefer my own 5-1-1 mix for its EFFECTIVENESS in drainage and correct moisture retention.

I have to mentioned that, I have been studying container media for the last 4 months of my gardening winter break. And with my past experience with media like MG, I have come to the belief that the bark based 5-1-1 is a better option. I might even try to modify it to some extent to better suit my application and climate. But it will remain basically BARK-BASED.

One thing that has always surprised me is how much interest something as seemingly mundane as container soil can generate. It's been a topic discussed nonstop here, no matter whether I'm around or not. The reason for that is clear - soil choice has a tremendous influence in what most growers are able to take from the growing experience - what they get in return for their efforts or how big of a bang for their buck.

...... and to think that 10 years ago I thought I was the only one that thought it was fun to talk about container soils and soil science!

Al

Here's my dilemma. After reading the Container Soils post and hearing how well the gritty mix works for most people, I would like to pot-up my container fruit trees (nectarine, cherry, peach and apple) into it. However, I don't think I have the time to water and fertilize as frequently as they will need, especially during the summer. My trees are on the roof deck, where there is no faucet, and I have been hauling water up in buckets for them. And I will be going out of town for a week in July and then two weeks in August ... a common occurrence for me in summer. I potted up when I bought the trees last year, but I don't think the new pots were big enough, and I would like to get them into some 15 gallon fabric pots, with room for some PlantMinder watering bulbs (think ollas for container plants), but I still worry that the gritty mix will dry out too quickly. I may therefore add some coconut husk chips (I know Al's not a fan) for water absorption/release as needed by the plant. What to do, all? ... What to do?

A couple thoughts, Nicole.

Fabric pots are not ideal for fruit trees - I find that the root system requires something more solid, stable. Fabric pots also "breathe" more, which dries out the potting mix even faster. If you add coco chips to the mix, you'll have altered the composition of the mix significantly.

I don't think watering bulbs will get you through two weeks in August, unless you live in a gloomy sunless location. I would arrange with or hire someone to come water my plants, and certainly I would go through a test watering with them and leave explicit instructions in writing.

Josh

I am new to this site and a complete novice. I can’t make heads or tails about the 511 reading this thread. I want to grow (organic) cilantro for daily smoothies in my kitchen in containers. I’m 72 with limited time/energy/function. I bought a grow light, containers, etc. but am stuck on the “soil.” I don’t want MG. I’d like to avoid peat. I’m allergic to anything coconut, so I’d rather avoid coir. I just started reading about 5-1-1, but need more detailed information or instructions. Can you please give me some directions, or a site where I can find more information? Thanks!

Alpine, here is the recipe for the 5-1-1 mix:

5 parts pine bark fines of appropriate size
1 part perlite
1 part sphagnum peat (or coir)
1 tbsp dolomitic (garden) lime per gallon of soil or 1/2 cup/cu ft

Also easily found in multiple posts by searching this forum.

It might also be helpful to know that it is difficult - but not impossible - to be fully organic with container gardening. Organic gardening implies an intimate association with nature.....and container gardening is an artificial construct pretty well removed from nature :-) The biggest drawback is a lack of soil biology (as there is no "soil" involved) necessary to process organic fertilizers. If you want to stay as organic/natural as possible, look for fully water soluble or liquid organics. There are a few but not that many and most are still lacking in many trace elements or micronutrients so your plants may not be able to realize their full potential and productivity.

But for indoor growing of an annual you should be okay.

Follow (click) me - I'll take you to informationabout the 5:1:1 mix, how water behaves in container substrates, and why that's important to both plant and grower.

Al

A pro for gritty is abundance of feeder roots. Photos taken today: