Hey, Jamey! I hope it was my video you watched :-)

The 5-1-1 that I make in the video is 5 parts fir bark (pine is even better).

1 Part coarse Perlite.

1 Part Potting Mix (Ocean Forest).

1 Tablespoon Dolomitic Lime PER Gallon of mix.

1 Tablespoon of Oscomote 4-month slow release in the 19-6-12 formula.
______________________________________________

You can make the original 5-1-1 with just bark, perlite, and moss (and Lime, of course).

Most potting mixes are peat moss based, and so you can substitute potting mix for the moss. It works as a binding ingredient to regulate moisture retention throughout the mix. Since you have the moss, just use the moss.

If you have questions, just ask :-)

Josh

Thank you for helping me!! I think i was reading so much and taking notes i confused the two mixes, as i do have some plants that would benefit the gritty, and some i think are in dire need of the 5-1-1. I had so much trouble here in central indiana trying to find the stuff to make either of it. :)

Josh,
If your on youtube under "andalbanon" the it was you that i watched. :) and if it was you, you made it look so simple i have been overthinking it for a month now. Lol which that dont surprise me. It took me that long to find things, and now i do have questions.

I dont have the ocean forest soil mix. (Not sure if i can find it here in central indiana) if not, what other soil is good to use??

And another question i had is about the lime i bought. I went to 8 different places and asked so many people for lime that says "dolomitic lime" and i couldnt find it, but i did find lime that says "for yard or garden" is this going to work?? I will attatch a picture of what i bought of the lime to get both your thoughts to see if it will work. I went to lowes, menards, rual king, a seed/ feed place, and a nursery, as well as napa to buy what i have already bought. Its been an adventure!! Lol

The_yard_guy,
THANK YOU for putting it in to simple terms :) ive been reading so much i think the basics went out the window. I now realize i do not have the soil i need because i assume miracle grow isnt great for the mix. And in the video, he used a larger screen then i thought was used, but then again i think i was mixing up in my mind the 5-1-1 and gritty!! The good news is that i now have almost enough materials to make both, but the bad is i just last night went and bought 4 bags of miracle grow cactus mix because this year i thought i was going to just do the 5-1-1 mix and then this spring tackle the gritty!! Lol

One other quick question...the reason i started searching is because i kill everything. I recently came home with a bonzi. Its a tea furken (i might have spelled that wrong) but i guess its not an easy one. It was dropping leaves in my kitchen window. I have put it outside, and it seems to be doing okay, but it needs soil in its pot because it came with moss like stuff over the top and not much soil. I spoke with al, and thats why my adventure started!! So just to double check, the bonzi will do good in the 5-1-1 correct?? Or did i miss understand this as well?? I also went out and bought a meter for light, water, soil ph and the bonzi has been doing great since its been outside. I do have other plants like ivy that are too "bogged" down by the miracle gro and not doing so well, plus i have like crotrons, snake plant, double impaitents, and a few others i think will do well in the 5-1-1.
THANKS guys for all the advice and help. I really appreciate it!! I have been so worried about finding the right things, and then worried about how to do this. Lol

Jamey: The 5-1-1 mix is a very good soil mix and most plants love it. The concept behind both the 5-1-1 mix and the gritty mix is to provide a balance between water/nutrient retention while providing oxygen to the roots. In order for plants to be healthy they need oxygen in the soil as well as water and food (fertilizer).

Most bagged peat-based potting soils begin to break down fairly quickly after planting and watering and begin to retain too much water. After a month or two the result is a mucky, soggy mess at the bottom of the container. Roots cannot get any oxygen in that wet muck and begin to die off and rot. Quite often this results in yellowing leaves and very poor growth. Before finding the 5-1-1 and gritty mixes I used to use only peat-based bagged soils from the big box stores and I always had the same problem. When I dumped out the soil at the end of the season it was a muddy, foul-smelling mess at the bottom of the container.

The 5-1-1 and gritty mixes are different in that they allow frequent watering without retaining too much water. The soil in the root zone remains loose, not saturated with water, and there are many large and small air pockets in those soils, allowing the roots to breathe. Water drains quickly from the soils so you might have to water more often.

The 5-1-1 mix is designed to last at least one, possibly two growing seasons. It's normally used for annual plants like veggies and flowers, although you can grow just about anything in it. I grow trees in a variation of the 5-1-1 with great success. The gritty mix can be used for several seasons and is often used for bonsai soils as well as trees and shrubs that might go several years before repotting.

When making the 5-1-1 mix I use pine bark because in my area its fairly easy to find and much cheaper than Reptibark. I screen the pine bark with a 1/2" screen. Anything that goes through the screen can be used in the 5-1-1 mix. Your ReptiBark is pre-screened so you can skip that step. Just add a good quality potting soil to the bark. I wouldn't use the Miracle Gro potting soil unless that was my only choice. Quite often local, family owned nurseries will have much better choices for potting soil. Also look at indoor growing centers for good potting soil. The big box stores typically don't carry much besides the MG brand and maybe their own store brands. I would avoid them if at all possible.

Hope that helps.

TYG

The_yard_guy,
You are AMAZING!!!! Thank you so much for that analogy!! This is starting to make a lot more sense. So the bark and corse perlite is to basically make more breathing room into the mix, so it doesnt compact down and turn to mush?? Thats an issue i have been having. I just bought a beautiful large pothos and my home is very humid. The leaves are turning yellow and the soil isnt really drying out. Which i know isnt good. Its still in whatever they potted it in and it seems to be a heavy mix. So now you explain that, and my experience i understand it a bit more :)

Okay, there is only 1 nursery anywhere around me and i had went in there to look for the turface (lol at myself this was before i had a clue as to what it was) so i didnt think i needed a potting soil. So from my understanding, i need a potting soil that does not have peat in it?? I had so much trouble here in central indiana trying to find the things i did. I found pine "nuggets" at lowes, but they seemed a bit to large. Even the nursery said they dont get in pine bark. Not sure if that is normal or not. I live in a somewhat smaller town, and i am trying to get this soil made and repot all my plants in enough time to let them get adjusted a bit before i bring them in for the fall/winter and then have to start worrying about lighting. Which i have been LOVING the whole growing things and am so excited about it that i am seriously considering sitting up some sort of plant room with lights in an extra bedroom. But that comes later..lol..i just need to get these guys in a soil that works for them and keeps them alive.

So real quick again, the soil, i will go into the local nursery and look around...i need a potting soil and i need to try to find one without being peat based because the peat will hold in the water and 'bog it down' when i dont want that with this mix. Am i getting closer??
Thank you again for taking the time and "dumbing it down" for me. I am still not at the point i can experiment with things, so for right now, i tend to be the girl that you have to tell to get a. B. C. Or d just until i get the hang of it and use it. But hey, im willing to learn :)
You should of seen the guys in napa when i walked in there and asked for the floor dry. They looked at me like i had a thrid head and asked what i was using if for and if i had a bad oil leak in my garage. When i explained i was trying to make al's mix they laughed and chuckled so much they gave me a heck of a discount and said that "well it will hold moisture, but if you can get anything to grow in it, just come on back in here and show us and we will give you 5 free bags of the stuff' then they proceeded to make jokes at my expense. Lucky i can laugh at myself, but i know for a fact once i make the gritty and get the bonazi growing in it, i will march it in there and show it too them, and they can keep the 5 bags and make their own!!! Lol but first...the 5-1-1......

Jamey: Thanks for the reply. The people you really should thank are Al, for the original postings and suggestions for these two mixes, as well as Josh, Jodi, Laura, Al (Calistoga) and many others who posted questions and suggestions over the years. Compared to these members I am just a rookie here. I just started using the 5-1-1 mix about a year ago and so far I'm very pleased with the results. Al and the others above have been using the 5-1-1 and gritty mixes for years with great results.

Yes if you buy a bag of peat-based potting soil and use only that to grow plants, then eventually it will start to break down and retain too much water. Adding rocks or a "drainage layer" in the bottom will not help the soil drain. This is an old technique that really does not work. The peat-based soil mix keeps holding more and more water. Finally the roots begin to die off since they are sitting in water and mud with no oxygen. That's when you often see the yellow leaves coming on. Daily watering compounds the problem and simply adds more water to an already waterlogged soil and the container becomes very heavy. If you wish more detail on that topic you can read Al's latest thread on here called "Container Soils - Water Movement and Retention XX". It goes into lots of detail about perched water and peat-based soils, etc. A link is posted at the end of this post.

So yes the 5-1-1 and gritty mixes allow a nice combination of oxygen, water, and food (fertilizer) at the root level, no matter how much you water. Both mixes drain water very quickly. As I understand it the gritty mix basically lasts forever since the granite and turface (or the NAPA Floor Dry) never break down, and the pine or fir bark breaks down very slowly. The 5-1-1 mix lasts at least one and probably two seasons. Both are very good and far better than most bagged potting soils you can find.

The potting soil used in 5-1-1 will have peat in in since that is the basic ingredient of most potting soils. Your local nursery should have some brand of potting soil that is a bit better than the standard Miracle Gro soil. If you cannot find any at the nursery you can use the MG potting mix since it's only a small portion of your 5-1-1 mix. I recently found an indoor growing/garden center in my area and they have all kinds of different brands of potting soils and perlite. That might be an alternative place for you to look as well.

As for making bonsai soil, Al is probably the one to ask. he has been growing bonsai for many years and attends all kinds of regional and national bonsai shows. He would be the one to ask about bonsai soils.

BTW, you CAN grow plants using only the NAPA Floor Dry diatomaceous earth (DE). Several people on this list have done it. You need to be very careful when applying fertilizers and watering but it can be done. If the workers at NAPA are willing to give you 5 free bags of the stuff you might want to grow a plant in it just to get the free material.

Finally, I do not wish to say that peat-based potting soil is evil and should be totally avoided. Some people simply do not have the time, the space, or the interest, in making their own soils. Many people prefer to buy a bag of MG potting soil, place it in a container, add a plant, add water, and be done with it. As Al and others have mentioned, growing plants is a balance between what's better for the plant and what's better for the grower. Making soils like the 5-1-1 or gritty mix that are ideal for plants takes time and effort. Some people simply do not wish to spend that much time or effort on plants, and for them using only the bagged potting soils make sense.

Sorry for the long post.

TYG

Here is a link that might be useful: Al's Container Soil thread

Jameya: Your bonsai is probably a Fukien tea tree. It needs something like gritty mix made up of equal parts of bark, granite grit and Turface or Napa floor dry. Don't use anything with peat in it for your bonsai. Fukien tea trees are tropical bonsai that can be grown indoors in very bright light during the cold part of the year, but they prefer to be grown outdoors when temperatures are above freezing. It doesn't like to dry out completely, but you can kill it if you use soggy soil. I suggest you search for it by name on this forum and on Google before trying to transplant it.

I want to say a BIG THANK YOU to everyone on this website. I have been reading many threads as well as asking random questions through out this year and everyone has been so very nice to me and helping me. I was having an issue just getting the theory to click, but with the_yard_guy, you said it in "simple" terms with my experiences i FINALLY get it with the air, roots etc.
I think i have an issue with watering. I was one buying the miracle grow and then read that you need to water the plants where water was coming out the drainage holes to "flush" the soil, but then my plants always die. But now im starting to get that its not so much me "flushing" the soil, its that the soil holds that water too much and does not let it drain and then its killing the plants from the roots being water logged because the soil compacts down instead of having materials to let the water run through. Its making sense finally!!
And ya, around my area its like "the good ole boys" in some places, and i so want to be able to grow something and take it in and show them. And it might just open their mind a bit and not be so quick to laugh and "make fun" of someone trying something :)
Ohiofem,
Thank you, yes that is the name of it!! I think thats where i got confused about my mission in buying materials for the gritty and 5-1-1 it was difficult finding materials to make them, so i just started going through the list of things needed to make both of them and keeping an eye out at different stores and then came home with like 8 large bags of items (napa, chicken granite grit) and such and then when i seen the 5-1-1 video on youtube i was very confused on why and what i needed for what. (I have learned i am the type of person that learns better by seeing it done, or having someone tell me specfic steps i need to do, or what to buy) so this has been a huge learning curve for me and i feel like i need to ask so many questions. You all have been a great help to me and baring with me. I also put the fukien outside thanks to Al's suggestion because it was dropping leaves and i was worried it was going to go downhill fast. I have not replanted it yet, but thats why i have been trying to find the things i need to make the mixes because i would like to get it transplant in the next month or so, so it has enough time to adjust to the repot before it has to adjust coming in for the winter months. Since its been outside, it does not drop leaves like it did, and it looks the same as when i bought it 3 months ago.

So for the gritty mix, can someone tell me what i need to make it?? As of right now i have:
1. Napa floor dry
2. Grant grit (it says 100 percent granite with nothing added)
3. Sphagnum moss
4. Reptile bark (i will keep my eyes open for uncomposted small pine bark)
5. Lime
Do i need anything else??
Also the lime i have does not say dolimite. I looked all over and ask the sales people in different store to help me find lime that says dolimite, but in several stores could not find any. So i bought a 50 pound bag from a local nursery that just says lime for yard or garden. Will this work, or is it a no go??
Sorry so long guys, i just want to make sure i through out all my info out there just in case ive missed something, or didnt get the right thing. I appreciate all the help and time you all take to help me and others. I have had such a fun time this past year buying different plants and now just trying to keep them alive!! Its been such a fun but stressful experience at times. Lol

Jamey: Glad you are understanding the balance needed between oxygen, water, and nutrients. Just like with humans, plants also need all 3 of those in order to survive and grow.

The gritty mix is different from the 5-1-1. For the gritty mix you need pine or fir bark (your ReptiBark), granite, and Turface or NAPA Floor Dry (your DE). The gritty mix is a bit more complex in that you should screen all 3 ingredients to remove all dust and very fine, or very large, pieces. The previous thread you posted to, "Al's Gritty Mix -- A Learning Experience" is a good source of information as is the link I posted previously "Container Soils - Water Movement and Retention XX". Both will be a big help for you in creating your gritty mix.

Hope that helps.

TYG

When using lime, does it have to be exactly dolmite? After going to 6 places, i could only find yard and garden lime, but it has ca in it. I could not find any that said dolmite. Is this going to change the ph or be bad, or can i go ahead and use it??
Thanks :)

Garden Lime should be the right stuff. You want the Calcium in it, along with the Magnesium.

Just be sure you're not buying Hydrated Lime.

Josh

Jamey:

Josh is one of the veterans of this forum and you can't go wrong with his advice. He's helped me several times.

I use the Espoma Garden Lime for my lime needs and it works very well, although there are other brands on the market in both big and small bags. The Espoma product is dolomitic lime so have no worries. You should be able to find it at any garden center or nursery.

One bag of this, at 1 Tbsp per gallon of soil, will last for several years unless you have hundreds of plants. I'm attaching a link.

Hope that helps.

TYG

Here is a link that might be useful: Espoma Garden Lime - HD

The_yard_guy,
Thanks so much for the picture. I saved it to go into places and show them to see if i can find it. I live in a small town, we dont have a hd store, but ive checked lowes, menards, one local nursery, a local feed store, rual king, and walmart and couldnt find anything that said lime "dolimite" and i asked many sales people and they did have different ones, but none that said lime/ dolimite. Thats why i went ahead at the local nursery and bout the yard/garden lime with ca in it. Ive had so many problems rounding up the exact materials to make it, and wanted to make sure i was on the right track. Lol.
I thank you guys so much for the patience and help you have helped me with. I now am going to try and make some up and see how it goes :)
And THANK YOU josh as well. You guys are awesome :)

Jamey : Good luck with your lime search. Sometimes the word "dolomite" or "dolomitic" do not appear on the front of the bag, but you should see it listed in the ingredients on the side or back of the bag.

Good luck on your mix. Feel free to post a few photos of your finished mix so we can see how it looks.

TYG

I made a small batch to "test it out" and here is what it turned out to be. I think i am going to have to find some larger perlite in the future, but for the most part i dont think it turned out too bad...

Jamey : From what I can tell in that photo I think you are correct about using the larger perlite. The perlite in the photo looks small. I bought a bag of Schultz brand perlite at Menards and it was very good, especially after screening out the fine dusty material.

It might just be the photo itself but it looks like there's quite a bit of peat or potting soil in this mix compared to bark and perlite. Was the soil wet when this photo was taken?

TYG

I soaked the reptile bark for a day and a half and then made the mix. After i got to mixing it up, i thought it needed a bit more bark to the mix so i added a small handful of the reptile bark that wasnt soaked. Thats why some pieces look dark and some of the bark is more brown. I just figured since i added the small handful of unsoaked, i will just keep an eye on it to see if it will need a bit more water quicker.
And THANK YOU for suggesting the brand at menards!! i will go this weekend out there and see if they have that exact one. i made a small batch of it and put a tiny catcus type plant and a golden phthos in it. i hope it will be okay. the phthos i have been worried about i have had this one for 6 months and it was looking awful and i changed pots and soil to maricle gro and it turned worse and came out in small sections and the bottom looked like oil and had so much water in the bottom, it was awful. the scary thing is, i had not even watered the poor thing in over 3 almost 4 weeks. ..do you think i should get the other perlite and remix a batch for those two plants, or do you think it will be okay??
thanks again :)

I soaked the reptile bark for a day and a half and then made the mix. After i got to mixing it up, i thought it needed a bit more bark to the mix so i added a small handful of the reptile bark that wasnt soaked. Thats why some pieces look dark and some of the bark is more brown. I just figured since i added the small handful of unsoaked, i will just keep an eye on it to see if it will need a bit more water quicker.
And THANK YOU for suggesting the brand at menards!! i will go this weekend out there and see if they have that exact one. i made a small batch of it and put a tiny catcus type plant and a golden phthos in it. i hope it will be okay. the phthos i have been worried about i have had this one for 6 months and it was looking awful and i changed pots and soil to maricle gro and it turned worse and came out in small sections and the bottom looked like oil and had so much water in the bottom, it was awful. the scary thing is, i had not even watered the poor thing in over 3 almost 4 weeks. ..do you think i should get the other perlite and remix a batch for those two plants, or do you think it will be okay??
thanks again :)

That mix, I think, will be too wet for cactus.

Do you know what exactly your 'cactus type' plant is?

Jamey: I'm not very knowledgeable about growing cacti so I can't give you any specific advice on that. I do agree with Rina, I think that in general cacti like fairly dry soil so the gritty mix is probably a good choice for them. The 5-1-1 is probably going to be too wet for most of them. You might want to do a search on this forum for "cactus soil" and see what you can find. I'm sure other members use gritty mix recipes to grow them.

Yes that Miracle Gro peat-based soil holds a LOT of water, as you just described. It starts out nice a fluffy and plants like it, but the more you water it the more it compresses down into a soggy swamp. As you experienced, the bottom half of the container turns into a mess. It's not just the MG brand but most peat-based soils from the big box stores are similar. They are cheap, but they break down in a hurry. You can buy some very good bagged soils, like Fafards brand, but I understand they are very expensive and hard to find.

I'm attaching a link for the perlite at Menard's. I think the pieces in the Schultz brand are actually a bit larger than the Miracle Gro perlite. It's not the super coarse perlite you can find at hydroponic stores but if you screen out the dusty material the remaining pieces are very good, especially if you only need small batches of soil.

Hope that helps.

TYG

Here is a link that might be useful: Perlite

Good coarse Perlite can be almost as hard to find as the right bark. I had the same question as TYG about the bark in the image, but your explanation makes sense regarding the color of the dry bark added. I would be interested in a picture of the mix in your hand - that helps me get a sense of the texture and the proportions of the ingredients.

Regarding the Cacti, Rina and TYG are right again. *Most* dry-land Cacti will perform better in a less organic, more porous mix, such as the Gritty Mix. However, there are a few Cacti will do very well in 5-1-1 (or modified 5-1-1). These include the jungle Cacti and varieties from wet parts of the world, such as Dragon Fruit (Hylocereus and the rest...), both of which I grow in 5-1-1.

Josh

Jamey: I agree with Josh. I looked in my area for coarse perlite with no luck. He and others on the forum suggested I check with hydroponic stores or "indoor growing centers". I have one place locally and they had all kinds of perlite in various grades, from fine powder up to nickel-sized "very coarse" grades. If you have a place like that near you it would be worth a look. In the meantime, the Schultz brand, when screened, will give you a decent size of perlite. Figured this would be easy since you said there is a Menard's in your town.

Josh had a good idea about taking some of the dry soil mix and placing some in your hand and taking a close up photo. That way we can see the soil detail and structure. I learned that trick from others on the forum who do that to show various soil mixes and ingredients. Quite often a close up of soil in hand is easier to see and analyze than soil in a container.

TYG

If you want a coarse perlite, this link below might help..

It was not as big as the very coarse perlite I get at my local hydroponics store, but I was shocked to see how much better it was than Miracle Grow's product...No sifting required..All usable,,

Have a great day)

Oops, sorry about that..I almost forgot the link..

Thanks)

MIke

Here is a link that might be useful: Hoffmans perlite

This post was edited by meyermike_1micha on Mon, Aug 18, 14 at 18:42

No link, Mike. Please repost.

Mike, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that's done that.

Yes a hydroponics store is likely to have larger perlite that may not require screening. The bags of perlite I saw at the local hydroponics center were semi-transparent and the perlite was quite large with very few fines, if any, from what I could see.

The perlite I suggested from Menard's or other big box stores will have some fine material no doubt. The only advantage is that it's easy to find for people who do not have a hydroponics or indoor grow center in their area. The downside is that it will need some screening. Be sure to screen perlite outside with plenty of air circulation. A mask would be a good idea as well.

TYG