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bamateacha

A one-sided love affair with Clematis

Bamateacha
14 years ago

Ok...I love, love, love pictures of full, beautiful clematis covering supports, emerging from a sea of roses....ahhhh.

I plant clematis (last year 4 clematis in 4 different areas). All are back, but they are each just one skimpy vine. Each vine looks ok...about 4 or 5 feet high with a few buds on each. My one clematis that is 3 years old, continues to be one vine growing on one fence plank with two buds. :(

Now for the question--how do I get from my mind's picture to reality? Is it that they just won't achieve that in my zone? Alabama, zone 8. Is it just they're too young? Do you plant more than one clematis in a spot or does just one plant achieve those gorgeous coverings I'm so envious of?

Frustrated,

Sharon

Comments (34)

  • trailrunner
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Have you cut them back? They usually say on the Clematis forum to cut them back when you plant them and also bury the plant part way up the stem when you plant...like tomato plants so they get stronger. Here is a pic of one of mine last Spring. It is 5 yrs old I think and has been this full now for several years. It is about ready to open for this year.

    I have couple brand new ones that are really full . I think it is because I did the harsh pruning when I planted them. I hope others chime in with their response.

    {{gwi:652400}}

  • lynnencfan
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I prune mine harshly every year back to about 12" - I make sure there are a couple of bud unions but mostly they will come up from the ground fuller. Now I am aware that there sre some species that need different type of pruning but mine are the big flowered ones that you get from the big box stores - Nelli Moser, Henri, Bell of Woking, jackminii, ect - they also get a handful of lime each spring......

    Lynne

  • Bamateacha
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well...I haven't pruned at all because I wasn't sure what type clematis I had in some cases. I did plant a jackmanii last year and the darn stem broke nearly to the ground as I was planting. I figured I killed the poor baby and left it along. It grabbed my attention a week or so back as it is slowly twisting up out of my double red knockout roses. I probably didn't plant it deep enough.

    Thanks for the advice so far. Carolyn, you give me hope that's it's possible to grow this lovely in our zone. I shall keep on trying!

    --Sharon

  • todancewithwolves
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have the same problem. Mine have never grown more than 10". It has 3 flowers but it will die back and come back the same next year. It has one skinny branch.

    I'll try lime as suggested and see what happens.

  • christinmk z5b eastern WA
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Me too. I love Clematis with a passion, but they just don't seem to like it in my yard. Over the years I have probably boughten five of them, and each one has either dwindled or died. Nothing I do seems good enough for them! The only thing I can think of that would cause this is our hard-packed dirt. Perhaps they need looser soil for thier roots?
    CMK

  • zigzag
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sometimes I think we get too hung up on what's right for 'our particular species' of clematis, leading us to ignore common sense. At least, I'll plead guilty to that.

    I 'fostered' quadruplets, left them in pots, kept them alive, but little more. Now, having formally 'adopted' them, they're in the ground w/trellis supports (two plants per trellis). Circumstances have dictated that I've had to hard prune them each year, irregardless of their 'species' (which I have tried to research, gave up .... enter the common sense part) and so far, knock on wood, they're thriving w/dense new sprouts from the base and with a little gentle guidance they're climbing the trellises.

    Too soon for me to trill success, but for now I'm just very happy they've survived despite the odds I heaped on them. I'm hoping they'll thrive and produce in their permanent location ..... then, next year, I'll have to decide how/if to prune back.

    Gardening is such an adventure!

  • aftermidnight Zone7b B.C. Canada
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have a lot of Clematis and it seems each one of them behaves differently. I have one 'Omoshiro' very pretty if I ever get it to bloom, is still coming up from one wispy stem, each year I cut it back to about 12". On the other hand I have the double flowered 'Proteus' it has shoots coming up from the ground like hairs on a dog's back. I've planted all of mine deep, the wispy ones every couple of years I cut back severely hoping this will beef them up.
    Maybe nckvilledudes can give us all some hints, maybe it's how we feed them. Regardless of what group they belong to, right or wrong, I keep cutting the wispy ones back in hopes of bushing them up.

    Annette

  • nckvilledudes
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Contrary to popular opinion, clematis do not require a limey soil to do well. This myth originated because some of the English clematis were found growing on limey soil and everyone assumed that the lime was responsible for their vigor. What was not realized is that in England, the limey soil held deposits of moisture and consistent moisture is something that is definitely needed by clematis to be happy. It is not keeping their feet shaded either. What is present in shaded soil, whether by mulch or rock or other shallow rooted plants is moisture.

    Another key to clematis success is treating all pruning types of clematis as types III the first two or three years in the ground. This stimulates root development and the emergence of more stems from the ground. In addition, planting clematis several inches deeper in the ground than they are in their original containers buries dormant nodes that can result in new stems developing from the soil line and if you plant a clematis that is prone to wilt or is killed back to ground level, gives the plant nodes to resurrect itself from.

    For those of us in the hotter zones, I suggest not planting the type II large blooming hybrids. They tend to wilt more and brown out for me severely in the middle of our hot summers. This can be remedied by cutting the plants back severely, keeping them watered well and fertilized, and they rebloom in the late summer/early fall. All things considered, if I were to do my garden over, there would not be a single type II clematis in it. I tend to prefer the US native species and the viticella hybrids. They tend to do much better for me.

    As for pruning back, I cut mine back to within a 2-3 inches of the ground each year--this includes my type IIs since my growing season is long enough that I can still get two bloom cycles out of them even though they bloom on older wood.

    Another piece of advice is not to plant small clematis plants directly in the ground unless you know you will make sure you give them TLC the whole first year they are planted. I prefer potting up smaller clematis and growing them out in one gallon sized pots until the roots have filled the pots. This way you know the plants are getting adequate moisture and fertilization. I also prefer planting clematis in late winter (Feb. or so) or in the fall as our springs can turn to hot dry summers so fast that the plants don't have a chance to get established well before the adverse weather arrives. I have planted clematis as late as Halloween and had great success with them. This will vary of course depending on your individual growing conditions.

    Fertilization, what can I say about it. Some people think more is never enough. Too much nitrogen will promote nothing but vegetative growth. I prefer something with a higher middle number which is phosphorus since it stimulates root growth and ultimately bloom production. I also prefer a slow release fertilizer to a generic fertilizer since it slowly releases nutrients instead of a fast instantaneous nitrogen fix. This can be an organic fertilizer such as compost of various sorts, organic Espoma fertilizers, rose fertilizers, alfalfa pellets, or tomato fertilizers or it can be an inorganic slow release fertilizers such as Osmocote.

    The last thing I want to mention is pinching out the growing tips as the plants first begin to emerge from the ground. Allow the plant to develop three to five sets of leaves and then pinch the growing tip out. This will stimulate axillary bud breaks which will double the number of vines that can produce flowers. Once those axillary buds break and start developing new leaves, allow 3 to 5 leaves to form and then pinch that growing tip out. Failure to prune all clematis as type III clematis at least the first if not the second year and failure to pinch out growing tips are prime reasons why clematis plants stay single stemmed plants that fail to prosper.

    Here are a few pictures of me pinching out the growing tips of a clematis for clarification.

    {{gwi:576463}}

    {{gwi:576462}}

    Final pinched out plant.

    {{gwi:576465}}

    I know it looks harsh but it works. I have tons of clematis now that are coming up as multistemmed plants that grow like weeds.

    This picture was taken a few weeks ago. I need to go out and take an after shot showing the growth after all that pinching.
    {{gwi:652401}}

  • nckvilledudes
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Shots from two weeks later.
    {{gwi:652402}}

    {{gwi:586676}}

    And yes, the trellis in the background has clematis on it as well as the pot to the right in the picture. With over 150 or so in the ground and in pots, and countless other seedlings growing out, I very definitely am a clematis freak.

  • Bamateacha
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh thank you, thank you for your detailed suggestions complete with pictures! I will print out your advice and give it a try.

    --Sharon

  • zigzag
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks from me too, nck ...... much as I hate to snip stuff, I know it needs to be done for the greater good - your post is very instructional.

  • gottagarden
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Without trying, I have become a clematis collector. They are so beautiful, and EASY. I just plant them next to a trellis and cut back in the spring. That's all and they bloom like mad. I suppose I am lucky in having good soil and adequate natural rainfall. I don't fertilize, but do try to mulch with horse manure once every year or two. And I have followed nckvilledudes advice about cutting back and planting deeply.

    Great, helpful photos, nckvilledudes! {{gwi:652404}}From 2008 Misc

    And don't forget their fantastic seedheads - this is c. tangutica.
    {{gwi:652406}}From 2008 Misc

  • traceyc
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This topic really caught my eye because I too have had problems getting clematis to thrive. I inherited one around a door which was beautiful the first year but has been dying a slow death since...it's still alive barely but no flowers at all last year. This is most likely because I haven't ever pruned it - in 6 years! I've been too scared!!! It's a clematis montana. My simple question then is - now I know I MUST prune it - when? It's autumn here now. And how hard? Thanks in advance to those of you with enviable clematis!

  • nckvilledudes
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Tracey, clematis montanas bloom on old wood (type I clematis) and are typically not cut back at all except to remove deadwood and to keep it in bounds(except for the first year or two in the ground so that it can establish its roots systems--this is true for all clematis). This clematis sets its buds over the summer growing season so if you trim in the fall, you will miss the flowers the following spring. If the plant is dying slowly it is lacking something to make it prosper and that is likely why it is not flowering. You need to figure out why it is not happy, give it what it needs, and then you will get the flowers. Do you give it adequate moisture during your summers, especially if it is hot and dry? Do you fertilize it with a low nitrogen fertilizer and one higher in phosphorus? Does it get adequate sunlight? Perhaps a soil test is in order to determine what nutritional deficiency may exist in your soil that is preventing it from prospering.

    Glad the info was helpful to others.

  • gldno1
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    At last, nice simple growing instructions for clematis!

    Thank you nckvilledudes.

    I am now printing this and will keep it in my gardening journal.

    I think I lost my one clematis montana over winter, but all the others survived. I didn't prune as your suggestions say, but certainly will next spring.

  • aftermidnight Zone7b B.C. Canada
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Mmmmm, I knew when I was digging the hole for Omoshiro I should have been putting it in a one gallon pot for a year or so but I was afraid of losing track of it and it croaking on me. I noticed this year it actually is going to have at least one flower so won't dig it up. I think I'll take a cutting later on and start a new one, grow it in a pot for awhile.
    Can I wack back mine after it has flowered or should I wait till next spring?

    Annette

  • nckvilledudes
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I whack all my type IIs back after they flower Annette and then get another flush of blooms in late summer/early fall. Whack away after flowering ceases.

  • erasmus_gw
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This is great info Nckvilledudes, and I've written it out in my notebook too. I have some growing pretty well, especially the one I pruned. Been scared to prune another one but will have at it after it blooms.

  • token28001
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I just bought my first clematis today. Miss Bateman. She's a white clematis for the white beds. I've got some rusty trellises back there. I've got good composted soil that holds a lot of moisture. And I've got only morning sun with late afternoon shade and lots of reflected light. I wanted the white climbing rose to go with it. I may still do it.

  • irene_dsc
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you so much for this thread! I bought Clair de Lune (type 2) last year, before we bought our arbor, so it is in a large pot in the ground with a bunch of twigs acting as a temp trellis. I didn't realze I should've pruned it then, but now I definitely will! (Ok, after it stops raining...later this week sometime.). I still need to get dh and I organized to pour footings for our arbor and then I want to move it closer to the base of the arbor. I haven't checked on the roots, so far.

  • traceyc
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you so much Nckvilledudes, I'm glad I asked before taking to the montana with the secateurs! It does get adequate sunlight but maybe needs more water (I held back on it after hearing they don't like wet feet) and definitely some fertiliser. Will try your suggestions - thanks a million.

  • nckvilledudes
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Token, in our climate I don't have spectacular results with the type IIs since they tend to brown out severely in our heat and humidity and are more prone to wilt than any of the type IIIs. The viticella type IIIs tend to do better and take the heat. You might want to consider campaniflora which is native to the warmer zones, Huldine, or John Huxtable.

    Not sure how hot it is in your part of Australia Tracy, but clematis do like consistent moisture. That could be the issue with your clematis. A soil test would help determine if you have any nutritional deficiencies as well.

  • Eduarda
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you for this very informative thread, Nckvilledudes! I'm another clematis fan with not much luck. I try to grow a couple - Nelly Moser, Mrs. Cholmondeley and The President - but they are not utterly successful. I know they're all Type III and these do not do so well in my dry zone 10 Mediterranean climate, but the problem is that these large flowered hybrids are the only ones possible to find in our garden centres :-( Most of the garden centres don't have the faintest idea of what they're doing, they just sell whatever is available for trade in Italy (from where everything seems to be imported these days). The odd one that tries to have some different things usually goes bust...

    Anyway, Nelly Moser has been the one doing the best for me so far. I appreciate the info about burying the plant deeper, I didn't do that with mine, will keep that in mind if I decide to add some more. In my climate, water is definitely the main issue. Our Summers are scorching hot and dry and it's an ordeal to keep these babies enough watered.

    Eduarda

  • token28001
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks Nick. I'm going to give this one a year to see what it does. If I need to look at a different type, I'll be asking your advice again for sure. Great info. Buried it deep when I planted it.

  • flora_uk
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    traceyc - it could well be your climate. Is it very hot and dry? I have 20 year old C montana over a large shed and it is never watered or fed. It is hacked back every few years so we can get into the shed and stop it climbing up all the surrounding trees. This tells you what conditions keep C montana happy. ie English weather - plenty of rain, not too hot and reasonable natural soil.

    I also echo NVD's recommendation of the viticellas. I have Sodertalje (sp?) which is very vigorous and foolproof. Again it gets no extra water or food. It's probably about 10 years old. I cut it back when the blooms finish in late summer.

    I have more trouble with the large flowered ones. My Miss Bateman, jackmanii and Ernest Markham get eaten to the ground by slugs and snails as soon as they emerge and the only way to keep them going is not to cut them down too low but to grow them up on a stem of about 3 feet where the snails are less persistent.

    I have 2 more which I don't know the names of. They were cheap buys from the supermarket and so far seem to be doing well.

    I love them because you can fit lots of clematis into even a tiny garden like mine.

  • mle17
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What do you do if you've already messed up and planted them too shallow? Will adding soil around the base promote more vines, or is pinching the only post-planting fix?

  • cziga
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I totally agree with the pruning suggestion to prune all clematis as type 3 in their first couple years. Makes a big difference.

    Also, another tip I was given when I had this problem with my first couple clematis was to fertilize with tomato food. I was a little skeptical as I already fertilize, but again, it made a big difference. Not sure why, but it couldn't hurt to try :)

  • nckvilledudes
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I feel your pain Eduarda. Most garden centers carry the large flowering hybrids because they are the ones most commonly known and are in bloom in the spring when the weather warms up and everyone flocks to the garden centers. The type IIIs tend to bloom later after the mad rush at the garden centers is over and who wants stock that is just going to sit there and that will have to be kept over the summer when it is too hot to plant much of anything.

    Flora, I would love to have the kind of weather you all have in England. Our summers are very hot and dry and everything suffers to some extent.

    Mle17, depends on how long the plant has been in the ground. You could dig it up and replant it deeper but at this time of the season, it will be getting hot in your neck of the woods and the plant might sulk. If you can pile more soil around the stem and mulch it to keep the soil in place, that might work. Pinching it out can't hurt.

    One thing I do want to say however is that some plant naturally seem to put up numerous vines from the crown on their own without the deeper burying and pinching. Those little activities however can't hurt so I suggest doing them nonetheless.

    Cziga, tomato fertilizer and rose fertilizer generally have higher middle numbers which reflect the phosphorus content. Phosphorus stimulates root development which in turn leads to more blooms in time.

  • traceyc
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks for the suggestions - yes Flora, hot and dry summers here (if you saw the recent bushfires nearby on TV - that's the summer environment) BUT we have cold winters with heavy frosts etc...I can successfully grow tulips as an example. So I think we probably have a fairly good climate for the clematis and that it's simply my own neglect/lack of knowledge that has contributed to poor Montana's decline (-:

    I'm sure the soil she is in is depleted - it's only a patch around the doorframe - the rest of the area is stone paving - so fingers crossed a bit of TLC will revive her....

  • sowngrow (8a)
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Sharon, I'm in zone 8 and I grow Jackmanii which blooms fine for me for the first spring flush, but then hardly blooms the rest of the summer. I think I may have it planted in a spot that is too shady. I grow Sweet Autumn clematis which is hardy, but only blooms in the fall. My best luck w/clematis has been texensis Duchess of albany and texensis Gravetye Beauty. Both bloom very nicely all summer long and have beautiful blossoms. After growing them several years, I finally learned (by checking the clematis forum's faq's) to cut these back before they begin to bloom. This is my first year trying this and so far, so good. Hope this helps.
    Robin

  • Bamateacha
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks for the info, Robin. I've written the two types you listed and will be looking for them. :)

    -Sharon

  • nckvilledudes
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Duchess of Albany is a great clematis as well in my garden. Gravetye Beauty is a mildew magnet. Just realize that what does well in one garden might not in another. That is what gardening is all about--finding out what works and what doesn't for you. I would advise you to avoid sweet autumn clematis like a plaugue. It reseeds itself in my garden like a thug unless I cut the plant back by half after blooming and it may or may not have any fragrance to the blooms based on whether it was seed grown or vegetatively propagated from a fragrant plant. As far as I am concerned, SAC can be a terribly invasive plant depending on your growing conditions and with so many other great clematis, including the US natives, out there, why bother with it.

  • Bamateacha
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pssst, nckvilledudes...I planted one sweet autumn clematis and promptly and unintentionally killed it deader than a doornail. I can't even grow a thuggish clematis. Go figure.

    --Sharon

  • nckvilledudes
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    How in the world did you do that Sharon? I still have three seedlings that I have sprayed with round up three times over last season and they are back again this year.

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