Welcome back C, I was thinking about you just yesterday, you've been missed :). Can't help you with plant choices as we have totally different growing conditions but as far as the leaf problem goes we use a leaf blower on low to clean up the never ending falling leaves around here. We have an electric jobby that does just fine for us, giving it just enough oomph to move the leaves without wreaking the plants. Blow all the leaves into a spot where they're easy to pick up.

Annette

Well, this is a terrible picture, but it might help. I took it this Spring, when I couldn't weed too much. This is under a huge Canada Balsam, so no leaves, but sap, and of course dryness and shade. I have put soaker hoses throughout, and layered leaves and compost onto the area. I have low growing ground covers, hostas, that sort of thing. I also have some perennial geraniums, columbines, nepetia and violas. Tough plants. If the plants form a mat, you should be able to use a leaf blower to get rid of the leaves.
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Carolyn, glad to see you posting!!

Nancy.

Dry, shady locations are a challenge, that's for sure.
Here's a question...How much do you love the tree? Is it necessary for your comfort? Perhaps removing it is the solution. Then you could plant smaller, landscape type trees,etc whatever grows well in your area.
A drought situation is also very frustrating, especially if you have to ration water use in any way.

The north east corner of our house has shady, dry conditions. Hostas, coral bells, lily of the valley, sweet woodruff and bugle weed all do well, even though there are times I have to water them.
Maybe these wouldn't work for your area.

Sedums are great and come in a huge variety of colors and sizes,so it seems like you're doing what you can.

Hope this helps a little.

There, these are better. They are Spring shots. I think that the soaker hoses are the key. As you see, I have built up with compost and pea gravel and flagstone paths.

Cheers, Nancy.

First, I don't think you are whining at all (geez, that isn't anything in comparison to when I am in one of my funks, LOL!).

I can relate for the fact that several of my gardens are under trees or large shrubs that suck up a lot of moisture or make it difficut to plant under.
Choosing plants for these areas involves a great deal of trial and error!! But once you find a plant or plants that work it may be nice to either plant a large grouping of one kind or keep repeating them in different forms (cultivars etc) to add variation.

For me, Epimedium work well for dry areas of the shade garden and places that already have a lot of roots from the trees and shrubs. And there are so many kinds and colors available!
Then recently I redid the little area under my red twig dogwood. I took out a lot of plants I wasn't happy with/didn't look good. Geranium maccrorrhizum did well there and looked good all the growing season, so I put more in to fill the entire area. A sort of 'en masse' planting. Then under the flame maples and elm trees I have patches of Vinca minor growing. So tough...and evergreen. Sometimes "invasive" things can be perfect for difficult sites!

I will admit (though it hurts to say it- since I love every inch of space to be filled with greenery!) there are some areas that simply can't be planted in. Like the very back of my front shade garden by the foundation. NOTHING seems to grow there. And if it does it is soon dug up or buried by cats (like the sandy soil, like a litter box there!, lol). Next year I plan to put some pots or troughs for planting in. Perhaps you could do the same and have hypertufa troughs with a collection of sedum and succulents??

Hope you find something that works well for you!!
CMK

I'd take out the tree.

I had Queen palms. They send out finger sized roots that take up every inch of soil so that nothing will grow under them. We bought half-wine barrels for under the palms and planted cascading ivies and wire plants in them so that they would cover the sides of the barrels and cascade over the bare soil. Scraping out the thousands of orange dates that formed a mulch over everything was torture. When the roots made it into the TOILET that was it. I missed the shade for a few months and the pond grew algae, but I'm happier now.
Renee

WOW I knew I could count on you guys to have ideas. We can't take out this tree...I took out a TON of others and the neighborhood assoc. would get me for sure. Also being in the ever and ever hotter South we need the shade.

OK after reading all of the ideas here I am getting a little less "fussy" and more positive. I will do the soakers...I have put off doing it for years but Nancy you have made me see the light. Also I am going get more sedums. I am also going to move more pots onto the soil and decorate more with them in the garden and not just on the patio. I have also moved the lavender glider to the soil area and off the patio...takes up dirt space ...haha. Epimediums...somewhere I have a catalog from the folks that have them and I never ever pursued buying any. They are in NC so near enough.

THANK YOU Annette, Nancy, Lily,Renee,and CMK. I will get back to you in the next while and let you see what I have done.

Meantime I am glad to be back and love seeing what you are all doing. If there are more pics or ideas...particularly of Southern gardens I would love to see. c

Hi Trailrunner,

You have my sympathies for sure. I can't imagine how awful the heat in the south has been. We had an unusually hot and dry and humid summer for our area this year too. We normally have about 14 days of temperatures over 90 and this year we had 23. I usually get 30 inches of rain over 5 or 6 months and this year we barely had 10. I am hoping next year will be more normal. I'm not sure it will be. So I am also thinking of trying to make changes to prepare for hotter dryer growing seasons.

We have a lot of tree roots and shade in our yard. One neighbor has a huge London Plane tree, a pine and 6 spruce trees within 10 ft of our lot line. There are also 3 huge mature Silver Maples within 5 ft of our lot line in other yards. So they just suck the moisture out of the soil. I lost 70% of the leaves on two Viburnums this year, despite trying to use the sprinkler all the time. It's not easy to figure out dry shade. This year, I would have lost a LOT of plants if I didn't water well. They still don't look that great but they probably will survive.

I have found Epimediums, Japanese Painted Ferns seem to tolerate dry better than others, European Ginger, Solomon's Seal and Vinca are what seem to be working in my dry shade and compete with the trees. Hostas are pretty good too. Also, spring bulbs are great because they go dormant during the hottest part of the summer.

I am in zone 6, so I can't say if any of those plants will work in your zone though.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I'm understanding the problem with the falling leaves. Aren't the leaves falling in the Fall, when the garden is about done?

Renee we must have cross posted. I saw those kinds of palms everywhere when we were in San Diego the past 4 weeks. I wondered what those little orange things were all over the sidewalks LOL. I am sure you had to take it out when the roots got into the plumbing. WOW...I have already taken out every tree but one small maple in the back so can't remove this one. I will just have to be challenged.

Hey prairie...yes the leaves fall in the fall but I still have to get them up as they will lay there and get thicker and sodden in the winter rains etc and they are really hard to get out in the Spring. Also they are really thick as this is a BIG tree. So I have to get them up. I didn't do a very good job last year and am paying the price this year.

I can't do any ferns at all. They refuse to respond to any amount of water. I have tried the painted one a long time ago from Lowes. I have never seen the SS but I know it looks similar to hosta and need to look up the Ginger. Hosta takes a lot of water. I have never understood folks saying that they don't. At least in my experience they look wonderful if you really flood them. They bloom only in hot sun but then take even more water....sigh...I have about 10 of them and they are almost the same size this year as the past 3 yrs...no more hosta.

I placed an order with santa rosa garden for sedums that are on sale. I love their place but most everything I have ordered from them is gone due to the lack of watering. I have wasted so much money. I am really going to take cuttings and propagate these and see if that will fill it all in.

THANK YOU ~ c

trailrunner, the epimedium is actually the toughest, most drought tolerant, shade tolerant plant in my experience. I dug one out one year and left it too long in the pot waiting to be planted and didn't remember to water it, so I thought it was dead. I threw it in the compost pile and never thought of it again. The next spring it was growing in the compost pile and I replanted it and it was fine. It blooms in the spring and is a great filler the rest of the season. There are many cultivars. I see they are hardy in zone 4-8. A link below. If you look for the Epimedium page, you will see many photos of the different cultivars.

I have many of them and they are planted right up to the trunk of my own Maple and I never think too much about them and they keep going. This year, with the crazy weather, some of them have brown edges, despite watering, but they are still living and I'm sure will come back fine next year.

On the leave situation, I see what you're saying. The London Plane tree in the next yard, has huge leaves on it that are always falling in my perennial bed. Can you mow the area once your plants are done for the season? I mow over grass and groundcover that has leaves in it and it chops up the leaves and I empty the mower bag into the compost pile and I find it much easier than raking.

Sedums and succulents are very drought tolerant, but I didn't think they were that shade tolerant. Sedum Autumn Joy and the creeping sedums have done well for me in part shade, but not full shade.

Here is a link that might be useful: How to Grow Epimedium

Trailrunner, my first 2 thoughts were to use pots or plant epimediums as others have mentioned. I am worried about your trying to actually get enough space in between the roots to even plant a perennial in the ground based on what you said in your first post.

I planted a maple, and while it was small filled in around it with all sorts of shade plants. The plants have all seemed to survive but where I have wanted to add more has been a disaster because I can't get through the roots. I think their survival had a lot to do with the fact that they were competing with fairly small tree roots when everything was first planted. But even if I could get a shovel in the ground I think new plants might be foredoomed to failure just because of the major competition for water with the mass of tree roots now. It sounds like you might be in the same situation where it may be difficult to get new plants established.

I really like your idea with the glider to take up space! Decorating the area with that and glazed pots could be a beautiful, colorful alternative to plants in the ground. This may help with the leaf clean-up situation too since the pots could be moved for leaf cleanup.

Is it possible for you to do raised beds in a few areas? Then you would avoid the tree root issue, and it would also conserve water. It would also allow you more variety of shade plants to grow, if they had the root space.

Serenae's suggestion has definite merit--get a nice foot of soil above those maple roots. I have mature maples and the ONLY thing that grows under them (and I've tried hosta, coral bells, lily of the valley, etc.--but not epimedium) is sweet woodruff, and it's still not exactly thriving like it would otherwise. We're actually taking down the trees this month. It makes me so sad but they're on their way out (150 years old is old for a maple) and very close to the house, making us very nervous. Good luck!

I really like the idea of adding more pots. My experience has been (and we have very hot, dry summers) that the bigger the pot, the less you have to water it. I got some big pots from Lowe's and they've worked great for my star jasmine and petunias. They're the plastic, square 18" (I think) terra cotta colored pots and they are fine being watered every two to three days...sometimes even longer.

I really like Nancy's pictures and I think something like that (with the glider) would look wonderful under your tree. You could have some paths to the glider and the pots and then raise up the soil around the paths with berms or raised beds. Right up against the tree, I wouldn't put anything, except maybe sedums.

As for the leaves, I think your best bet might be having a 'leaf party' and inviting friends over for food and drink, after they help you pick up your leaves. It could be a yearly event! (LOL) Seriously, unless you have all annuals and pots, it's going to be some work, so help might not be a bad idea.

I'm glad you're not giving up on gardening. There must be other areas, where the tree is not a problem. You are so lucky to have such a wonderful growing season. I'm always envious of people who can grow fruits/vegetables/herbs/flowers all year round. I'd have a potager and eat fresh food all the time, if I lived in your climate :)

You've gotten some good ideas so far - the only other idea I have to add is Lamiums. I have no idea how they do in the south, but I have some under my huge Norway maple. I put them all the way around, but the ones on the south side didn't survive the first summer - probably because I didn't water them often enough to get established. Lamiums are pretty popular around here under trees.

I thought of you when I was reading the Aug 2009 issue of Fine Gardening magazine that I have home from the libary. In their Southeast Regional Report, They mention what every Southeast gardener should know.

1. Weather is consistently inconsistent
2. Your zone is not all you need to know
3. You don't have to tolerate mosquitoes
4. Good advice stands the test of time.
The best written advice on gardening in the Southeast is a bok published
in 1942 called A Southern Garden by Elizabeth Lawrence

There is more to the short article that I don't have time to type up, but I thought you might like to have the name of that book at least.

I was thinking why fight what may be too difficult to overcome - a tree that sucks up all the moisture and heat that make things inhospitable to plants. Instead, why not beautify the area with say - setting up a water feature - a large bowl filled with water and water lettuce. Cover existing grounds with large nice looking river stones. The pond will hopefully cool off the area as water evaporates & you can fight off mosquitos with mosquito dunk. potted plants will make things look great however I can imagine it will take frequent watering to keep the potted plant healthy.

You didn't mention what kind of tree this is - and may if you do I can envision a design

As usual you have ALL come through with great ideas. I will show the area as it used to be and then I planted it and now all these years later it looks the same...sigh...nature is telling me something and I am not listening :) But I am going to start listening.

Ianna,prariemoon,lavender,serenae,new, irene and thyme,,,you are all equally wonderful for taking the time to help.

The over all view is : don't fight mother nature...use pots and decorative features and droughty plants when possible. I am more and more agreed that it is the way to go.

We had someone on here that used to post about " staring"...that is what I have been doing as I clean and trim and sweep and think. The funny thing is that I thought or hoped that I was done with that when I added lots of soil and amendments and planted all these things. sigh....quite a humbling experience. A gardener is NEVER done learning.They looked so good for 2 years. Ah well on to new and better ideas. It does no good to lament what will never be.

I can't and really don't want to get rid of any more trees. I can't add anymore soil as it only encourages the adventitious roots. At first you think , OK I have conquered the roots....but they come on up and through and mat worse than ever. So other than " pocket planting" , adding lots of soil to the hole and not bothering to amend around the area, I am done with topsoil additions.

I used to have a small pond , ianna, when we first moved here. It had koi and was wonderful. They knew me and came right up to feed. One Labor day a neighbor sprayed for mosquitoes and my fish all died. He never admitted it but you could smell it. I took out the pond. Also with the leaves it is almost impossible to keep it cleaned out. I have a fountain in the pool area it is wonderful and I am going to add another out here too as I think your idea of water and a feature is perfect. I don't know what kind of tree the " big one " is.

Irene I had lamiums but they only lasted one hard freeze here...funny that they do for you and not here.

prarie: there is enough hot sun in areas as the tree is very very tall so here in the SOUTH the sedums are happy.

lavender I have lots of pots so that is no problem.

Ok I hope I have covered all you have suggested. Here are some pics...this is how it looked when I first built the rock wall and started out...2-3 yrs ago .

big tree ( second tree behind little house is gone too ) ....there is more in this area now than is showing but this gives an idea:

this is how it looks with pots and my purple table and chairs that I salvaged a couple years ago:

this is when it looked wonderful...sigh:

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other direction toward the small maple, there are only 3 trees in the back now ( I forgot the wonderful fragrant pineapple smelling tree by back porch) ...when it looked so good...

another nice view:

OK ,,,it was nice to see this and I am GOING to get it back to this. The rose campion still looks good and there are some grasses that are still OK. The salvias are so so...iffy. The sedums are OK. The pots are easy and some have roses that are OK as the whole bricked are is HOT sun for hours. There is nothing at all under the little maple now. 2 heucheras look sad and that is all. I had stone walks and took them out. Will see about putting them back...

THANK YOU ....you have all helped me " get a grip". c

so it's not pure shade! That tree is the only reason this spot isn't working. One plant that immediately comes to mind is creeping thyme, and there are many different sorts of thymes to choose from. They will grow on shallow surfaces. Same with oregano, arenaria, sedums, hens and chicks, perhaps echeverias if they work in your zone.

Another thought, If you can sink in a large container in the ground - like an old plastic pond (with side drainage) you can plant your plants in it. Just top off with some mulch to disguise the rims. This way, your tree won't be able to compete with the plants for moisture.

The other idea is much the same as above but instead to line the area with pond liners so the plants will have that space of their own.

I wasn't thinking of putting fish in the pond. A shallow water feature was more to what I had in mind. In my area, I have a pebble pond so it's still interesting all throughout. No fish. I can say the mosquito dunks work well.

I gave up even trying to grow grass under our live oak. Our front yard is only about a third grass, the remainder is mulched. I did create a ground cover bed under the magnolia. The only problem with that is I need to cut it back every year to keep it in bounds. Not a big deal, but not my favorite gardening activity. That might be a good solution for your upper tier.

Have you tried sword fern? It's fairly drought-tolerant. We had a number of hard freezes last winter and mine died back to the roots, but all came back in the spring.

sword fern

Japanese ardisia, purple heart, and ??? ...

Here is a link that might be useful: ground covers

A picture is worth a 1000 words I love the way you have your front yard natal. That looks wonderful. I have some purple heart...it is not spreading very much so may move it but at least it looks healthy. will look up the other things too .

ianna.,,,dh says that is a very interesting idea to put the pond liners...how much soil would you put on top of them ? also burying the pond and filling with dirt...another very good idea ...like a raised bed...not. I like the idea of a sunken garden. Also can you post a pic of your pebble pond ? I would like to see. THANK YOU ~ c