That's odd. My only gay customer is more THRILLED and TICKLED with my arrangements than any of my other customers combined. He wouldn't dream of calling sunflowers "peasant" flowers. And he certainly wouldn't cut down someone else to make himself feel better. I am so looking forward to combining blackjack Glads with Moulin rouge sunflowers this season!!

I also want to add that the lady whom you said doesn't know how to construct an arrangement is one of the nicest, most generous people on this forum. I think she's actually helped me more than any book I've read. I have learned so much from her. She always has time to give detailed responses to all our questions. Her arrangements are fantastic. I aspire to be like her.

Could I ask why you chose 'gayfeather' as your screen name? Aren't you stating that your gayness is something that defines you?

If the worst insult that comes your way is that being gay gives you an inherent appreciation of beauty and nature and style and color, then you're very lucky.

I'm sorry that you were offended. I'm certain no one meant to insult you, any more than you intended to insult the particular flower arranger, or those of us who have differing views on the suitability of particular flowers. I'm afraid, though, that this won't be the last time that you read much the same thing.

I am sorry I even read this thread. Gayfeather, good luck in your upscale flower shop and in your own choice of flowers dictated by your own tastes.

You said it best yourself and I quote:
"Next time I would hope that you think twice before posting such offensive trash on a forum for all to read. "

That's all I have to say except this forum is particularly fortunate to have many experienced wonderful flower growers who are more than willing to share their knowledge based on their past experiences in the cut flower world. Although there are divergent opinions on flowers and all that goes with growing and selling them, I have no doubt that there has been no intended malice, no distasteful attacking whatsoever. Just observations based on experience.

I however am offended by your attacking certain posters and apparently not seeing anything of merit in the cited posts. Look closer, you will see appreciation, acceptance, accolades. Only you chose to see something different and negative. I'm sorry if you chose to view things that way. Just another divergent opinion, which are welcome, but never ever do I tolerate attacks and Garden Web shouldn't either.

Nothing would please me more than to have Spike vacuum this thread right out of cyber space. If he had found anything so offensive it would have been GONE weeks ago. I will continue to look forward to the helpful, insightful posts from all who contribute here.

Didn't mean any offense, and re-reading my "offending" text, see that I was ....childish? silly? not thinking?, whatever.

I don't know how many times I inadvertantly insert someone's race in a story I'm telling. I don't mean it negatively, and often, the inclusion is only to be truthful about a conversation I had w/ a person of a certain race. However, their race doesn't really have anything to do w/ the story at hand, and I need to stop that. For instance, "A customer came into the store and we had the best conversation...". Customer's etnicity isn't important. Ditto on persons w/ homosexual preferences.

So far in my business, it's been rare for ANY man to order flowers from me, yet 3 men Did order flowers from me, two of them twice. Why I included the "non-gay" qualifier I have no idea.

I go along in my life "thinking" I'm tolerant, and cringe when I hear others make disparaging comments, then out fall my own, unintentionally.

However, if you and your partner are in the floral business then the two of you must have SOME appreciation for the art, form, texture, smell, and feel of flowers and all that they entail. Otherwise, you'd be doing something that required less artistic expression. Since many gay men "seem" to be drawn to the arts, and since many gay men "flaunt" their effeminate behavior, a sterotype is born and fostered. Then you chastise us for our perceptions, and our unintentioned awkward words.

As we all know that "all" persons of color are not ghetto gang members, we all know that male persons who favor the same sex are not "all" effeminate, and not all women who favor women are to be called derrogatory names. So it seems to me that the word needs to be spread among the gay communities to stop the behaviors that lead to such sterotypes.

If you don't bring it to our attention, we will notice less.

And when you Till, Rake, Sow, Water, Weed, Fertilize, Harvest and then Make fifty or a hundred bouquets for a farmer's market, (In addition to a full or part-time job elsewhere), then haul them to the site, wait in the sun for hours for someone to come buy them, including elitist florists from upscale shops who seem to be "slumming", then perhaps you will have a better appreciation for someone who puts glads with sunflowers in her "peasant" bouquets. If we got to work in an air conditioned upscale flower shop w/ the best "imported" flowers available to us, maybe our bouquets would be different too.

Susi.

I don't think this is a florist at all. I think it's a troll looking to cause trouble. Will someone alert Spike of this thread? I think it should disappear.

It is really easy in electronic media (e-mail, forums) to be misunderstood because voice inflection, facial expressions, interruptions etc. are lost and an off hand comment can be misinterpreted as an insult.

I'm gay and when I read those posts last summer it did make me a little uneasy. It was a little like overhearing people talking about you without them knowing, and if that was the first thing I read it probably would have upset me more. But, by last summer I had been following this forum for six months and had a good enough feel for the participants to decide that no one intended any offense.

February sucks, but the days are getting longer and winter really will end. Lets all try to cut each other a little slack.
Kirk

I hope this post doesn't disappear, because while I wholeheartedly agree that none of the original posters meant any malicious harm, it has made us all consider the hurtful effects of stereotyping. We all, in the words of the famous man, want to be judged on the content of our character. I know to the world I am an overweight stay-at- home middle-aged housewife and sometimes I get treated like my only concern should be how clean my husband's shirt collar is. But I have a doctorate, and for twenty years had a very highly paid fast paced career. It's tough to get past the preconceptions sometimes.

I am only offended by the statement that you can't put glads and sunflowers together! You know, that is why some people shop at the "upscale" florists and others love the farmer's markets or those of us who have our own ideas about color, form and texture!

I have recently had to purchase some "florist" wholesale flowers to do some winter weddings. I hate even working with the plasticy things. Sure, they hold up..until you wish you could kill them! Today we were told that we didn't need to worry about lavender callas for a May brides request because they could spray white ones any color we wanted.....Yuckkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk!

I am personally acquainted with each flower I sell...I sowed the seeds, I weeded and watered, picked and conditioned....And I will choose what I think goes with it! And what MY customers like.

Black Jack glads, Any of the pink toned sunflowers and Kiss-me-over-the Garden-gate is my idea of the ultimate fresh and home grown bouquet! Only I would probably put in some English roses for fragrance also!

To be fair, this is what Gayfeather said:

"My partner and I happen to think Gladioli do not belong in mixed country bouquets...That is my opinion. It isnt attacking who you are as a person."

Everyone seems to be reading it as if he said:

"Anyone who likes Gladioli with sunflowers is a hick with no taste".

This is what I meant by misunderstandings in e-mail and postings.
Peace,
Kirk

"Never haphazardly put in with sunflowers and other peasant flowers."

I read that as a slam.

LizaLily, I had to spray paint hydrangeas to make them eggplant. I felt so tainted! Ewww...

Man or should I say person. Have we ever got way off track. I can see all points of view except for "peasant" flowers. That in my mind is sterotyping. Saying that any one person that likes those types of flowers is below one's self is wrong. I can see that Gayfeather has no idea the time, care and talent it takes to grow those peasant flowers that I sell hundreds of thousand of. May the peasant (Proletariat) flowers over come the bourgeoisie flowers sold in up scale florists.

Resounding "AMEN", Brian!

Most of the gays I have known have been friendly, compassionate, creative people. If that's discrimination, give me my red D.

Sue

I did not mean ANYTHING I said as a putdown. Stereotyping is never a good idea, and I should not have done it. But perhaps you didn't notice my mentioning my hairdresser's sweetie, a man with NO flower appreciation, just like my husband??

I can't help noticing that of the men in the florist business and other esthetic-appreciation businesses (like hairdressers, decorators, etc.), there appears to be a much higher proportion of gay-to-straight men than there seems to be in professions like engineering. That would, of course, be the choice of the men who enter those professions. Perhaps it is simply that gay guys are likely to choose trades in which it is easier to "be themselves", i.e. use feminine behavior and speech without being judged for it. Which leaves us with the accurate impression that there are proportionately a lot of gay guys in the esthetic professions. How is this a judgement or disapproval?

The comment about whether an appreciation for flowers is genetic and linked to the gene for gayness was a JOKE. I'm sorry you failed to appreciate that. Do note, however, that it was implied in my words that I assume gayness is genetic, therefore a normal human variation, not a "lifestyle choice" or anything to be disapproved of. Before now, I did not think it was necessary to point that out. Where I live now, there are very few gay men who aren't closeted. I miss them and their contribution to the variety of human life.

Kirk, I am sorry I made you uncomfortable.

Jeanne

I too wasn't being malicious at all. I was stating a fact that both of these gentlemen know about themselves and I know as well because they told me they were gay. I have a great relationship with both of them. In fact, they kid me as to how a straight guy can grow such lovely flowers. They are awesome designers and they do give me great compliments by raving about my flowers when I drop them off. If you can honesly read that post and think there is some sort of mal intent then I think you are reaching for something that doesn't exist.

Waiting for the frost to leave,

Steve

Spike...whoever you are, please let this thread continue. As a straight male artist working in and near Portland OR. and specializing in flower vases, (I just started my flower farm last spring to support my business, I use many flower arraingements as samples), I have been on the receiving end of many assumptions/stereotypes. Most are that I must be a liberal democrat or that I am gay. I am neither. I have never been offened by these assumptions. The interesting thing is that most of the people that are making these assumptions seem to be gay, liberal or both. That's OK with me, I just enjoy being able to meet different kinds of people. That is why I sell my work at public markets and art/craft shows. If I was sensitive to being stereotyped and it did offend me, I would probably be in some other business. My own wife asks if I am gay (in jest) when I help her with a flower arrangement she is having trouble with. I can't help it if I am artistic and creative, I see form and color with an artists eye...not a queer eye. As to the gay gene...I think gay men are more open to expressing their feelings and that is not a bad thing. Our culture teaches young boys, that girls like flowers and boys play baseball. It is partly through discussions like these that things can change. I hope you (Gayfeather) will continue lurking and adding your own two cents here like many of us on this forum and thank you Jeanne for all the good advice for us lurkers.

If anyone saw my booth at the Norwest Flower and Garden show last week...give me a shout out! Dana

This string of posts makes me a little sad, although there are points of hope scattered through it.

Many folks have good friends on the garden forums, and most -- but admittedly not all -- people who post comments are intending to teach, to learn, to share a common interest and to share a laugh. When they disagree, there's often a hearty back and forth -- particularly when you have long-standing forum relationships. In such cases, if you get into a flame war, you have at least some sense of the person you're responding to and the friends you're defending. And the person you flame today may be the person who chimes in on your side tomorrow.

In this case, there seems to be a disturbing disconnect to me -- a split in focus between to responses to Gayfeather's comments on people's taste in flowers and his outrage regarding other comments on people's taste in partners. As beautiful and important as flowers are to many forum regulars, I think that people should try to keep in mind that no one was ever beaten up for liking "peasant" sunflowers over gladiolas.

And I also believe that most, if not all of the original posts that upset Gayfeather came from a place without serious ill will. A place where you may be talking in stereotypes (whether seriously or comically), but there's no harm intended because you're talking about a "good" stereotype -- you know: "those" people are really good at basketball, "those" people are really good at math, or "those" people are really good with money.

The funny thing is, not everyone would fill such blanks in the same way. More importantly, no matter how you fill them in, they wouldn't be universally true.

And before anyone who was ever in a group of "those" people pipes up with a "yeah, you tell them!", people who are in such groups often enjoy toying with the "good" stereotypes themselves. When you're on the outside, it's insensitive, maybe bigoted behavior. But when you're doing it within the group, it's just an inside joke against the schmucks on the outside.

And, as a practical matter in daily life, when you're in one of "those" groups, sometimes playing to a stereotype can just be so much easier. Other folks can get even more upset or confused when you frustrate their expectations. It's less confrontational to say, "Why thank you, I AM good at math," instead of "Well, actually I nearly flunked out of high school because I can't do simple algebra, but thank you bringing up those painful memories."

It's a big wide world out there filled with all sorts of people in it. Broad categories, stereotypes and other general assumptions about how the world usually works may make it a little easier to make your way through it. Even so, I guess all I am saying is that even if you think a certain stereotype is a "good" one, other folks might not think so -- and, of equal importance, it might not be true or even partially true with respect to the person in front of you. So try to keep a watchful eye, and when possible, try to see the real person behind the assumption.

That's it. I'm off the soapbox now. Thanks.

Oh yeah . . . one more thing: For the record, I really do prefer "peasant" sunflowers to gladiolas, and there's no harm in mixing styles from time to time -- so bring it on! :)

jpw,
I read recently the human mind has the ability to stay on point for approximately 72 words. Then, it starts to wander. I read your post; and, I thought there must be a message here. There it was in your seventh paragraph which pretty much had all your thought in one tidy little package:

"It's a big wide world out there filled with all sorts of people in it. Broad categories, stereotypes and other general assumptions about how the world usually works may make it a little easier to make your way through it. Even so, I guess all I am saying is that even if you think a certain stereotype is a "good" one, other folks might not think so -- and, of equal importance, it might not be true or even partially true with respect to the person in front of you. So try to keep a watchful eye, and when possible, try to see the real person behind the assumption."

Point well taken. I think Kirk had it right all along about misunderstanding; and, others chose to take the post in another direction.

You said: "Oh yeah . . . one more thing: For the record, I really do prefer "peasant" sunflowers to gladiolas, and there's no harm in mixing styles from time to time -- so bring it on! :)" Bring what on? All of us here on the Cutting Garden love sunflowers; and, some of us have a love/hate relationship with gladiolas. Most of us grow them for our customers regardless if we love them or not. And, many of us growers are just to dang tired from planting bulbs, tubers, plugs and seeds. Right now I chose to look at the world through my rose colored glasses, and call it, My life and this is how I chose to live it...................

Hmmmm,"upscale" florist as opposed to us that work in the "bread and butter" florists. I guess we make more "peasant" arrangements than the "high style" variety. Everytime I make a "high-style" arrangement and put it in the cooler to sell- it sits there- Guess those peasants with the money just don't have good taste......

I'm fairly certain Gayfeather is Pete. One and the same.

Gayfeather it may be that you dont like some arrangments that have been pictured in this forum but someone does and someone worked very hard to put that together and show it to us. Please have respect for there likes.
Although i dont know any Gay men it seems that most (including you) are very bitter and defensive. Even though i dont agree with your lifestyle you may make more friends being less bitter and you may find that people wouldnt be so uncomfertable around you if you wouldnt make such offensive comments about someones hard work.

DapperDahlia, how can you say anything about what most gay men are like if you don't know any?

I don't intend this in a nasty way, but THAT is stereotyping!

I think I am quite likable and probably less bitter and defensive than most people. Maybe it is just because I spend so much time outside in the garden.

Peace,
Kirk