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rsts_gw

Your favorite new daylily for hybridizing

rsts
17 years ago

What are your favorite daylilies you have gotten, or will get, this year, for hybridizing?

To be quite candid, I am looking for ideas. I am somewhat out of ideas on what to get and just wonder what others are getting. I might get more ideas when my outside seedlings bloom, if I get any keepers. The majority of those in the gh have now been used at least a couple of years and won't be used again unless I have a seedling that I especially want to use with some and I doubt that will happen.

From pictures only, Bob Carr's WONDER OF IT ALL appears to be great, but I am not willing to pay $175. I am also still thinking of getting a lavender, although I will not make that decision until everything I already have blooms.

Comments (62)

  • rsts
    Original Author
    17 years ago

    Hi gang, I started this thread and then ran off and left. Been busy!! Next year resolution  do more chores before the spring blast of chores hit. Anyway, thanks for all the comments.

    Nancy, I have read that frozen pollen is good for several years. Have not personally tried it for several years. On collecting pollen, there is no one correct way. I like to bring it in the house and let it dry for several hours. Then, put the entire anther in the tube. Probably a better way (less moisture?) would be to put a small cotton ball in the tube and rub the anther against it. You could also scrape the pollen off the anther into the tube. Most any old way, BUT moisture is an enemy.

    Edward, thanks for telling me about the daylilies at Christies. Hope your Rhododendrons make it. I think they are very nice. Have never seen a Daphne. Supposedly, they do not grow well here.

    Brooke, last year a seedling bloomed from one of the PEH/VIL seeds you sent me. I thought it had good enough potential that I put it in the gh. It bloomed today and I think it is a beauty. It is somewhat similar to VIL, but whiter and ruffles not as loopy. Will get a picture on a later bloom. Hope to be mostly finished pollen dabbing by the end of the week.

    Royce

  • highjack
    17 years ago

    Royce are you putting the entire anther stem in the container or just the head of it? I use a hemostat to gently pull the anther off and place it in the tube and then put the container in the frig with the top off and after a few hours, close it up and freeze it. The cycling of the frig will dry any moisture on the bottom of the anther to eliminate any moisture that will destroy the pollen.

    I know some people do the scraping or putting the pollen on a cotton ball and then use the whole cotton ball to dab and then refreeze the cotton ball. Somehow in my mind, I think you could contaminate the pollen. I think this is probably my obsessive/compulsive disorder kicking in here.

    When I am ready to dab, I remove an anther and immediately put the rest of it back into the freezer. It only takes about five minutes to thaw an anther. The balance of the pollen never unthaws.

    My Carole Macke daphne is just starting to bloom. I killed on once after a really, really wet winter. These plants cannot take wet feet and I think the area probably held too much water. I put a viburnum Conoy in the area and it appears happy. My new one got planted in the fall of '04 and it was the wettest winter on record. I just knew it was going belly up that year. I guess I got the location correct because it is a happy camper. I will try to get pics this spring when it is in full bloom.

    I know I kept some of the PEARL HARBORxVICTORIAN LACE cross and it got moved to the new location. I will have to check my album but I don't think I got a pic of it. I can't wait to see your pic.

    The weather was outstanding yesterday and got to work outside all day. With no rain forecast for 48 hours, we managed to get some needed spraying accomplished. Guess what, by the time we were done, they upped the rain to this a.m. so have fingers crossed the RU will be on long enough to do some good.

    For you people who spray, whether fungicides or herbicides or anything else, we got the sprayer that Pickles recommended. My husband saw it during the MWS and for a change, the spraying routine was quick and easy, for him. Me, I still use the two gallon, pump it up type sprayer because I have to do the tight spots. The big sprayer has wheels, is battery operated, has a looooong hose and sprays with considerable force. It also has a bottom drain on it so the unit can be thoroughly cleaned.

    I finally started on the pond clean up, not finished yet but at least a start. The UV filter is up and running, but still need the big filter added but want to be able to pump out the yuck on the bottom and add fresh water. If the big filter runs with this much yuck in the water I have to clean it every day and I'm too lazy to do it every day.

    A cool front is coming thus the prediction of some rain. Thankfully no storms and the cool front keeps the temps in the low 70's - my idea of a great cool front!

    Brooke

  • rsts
    Original Author
    17 years ago

    Just a quick note as I will be away from home today.

    Brooke, thanks for the comments on freezing pollen. Definitely, do not put the entire anther stem in the tube - only the head. I agree with your method and you explained it better. You mention you do not like the cotton ball method. Truth to tell, I don't really care for frozen pollen. I think it is probably just a problem in my mind, but I prefer fresh. Next choice is blooms kept in refrigerator a couple of days. I put 3 in mine this morning as I will be away today and don't know what will be open tomorrow. I do use frozen and have never done statistics. It might be just as good as fresh.

    Regarding the RU, if it was on the plants several hours, I am sure it will be effective. It does not have to be on the plant very long to be effective. The new sprayer must be nice. I need one, but other things have a higher priority right now. Sprayed two three gallon tanks of RU yesterday. It's hard to get a day without wind here. Had a couple of hours in early morning that was ok yesterday.

  • numama
    17 years ago

    Thanks for the great advice Royce and Brooke. I never had the intention of using the cottonball method.
    Brooke, pardon me for being so ignorant I know hemostat is some kind of surgical implement but what is this tool? Super-sized tweezers is what I have
    pictured in my very tired mind right now!
    I better go to bed! Check back later,
    Nancy

  • highjack
    17 years ago

    Super sized tweezers that clamp together are hemostats. I have always had them because of my dog background - who knew I would use them in the garden.

    I agree with you Royce on using fresh pollen but Ma Nature doesn't always cooperate. If I didn't freeze the pollen on these FL beauties I have arriving, I probably couldn't use them this year. Most are cooperative and will rebloom for me but I can't really count on it. It amazes me that a daylily bloom can stay in the frig and look like a fresh bloom, for several days.

    My RU should be fine - we didn't get any rain until sometime over night.

    Has anyone else noticed how much wind there is ALL the time now. It started in the fall and has continued through the winter and now, into spring. This past winter the temp would be 50 but with a 20 mph wind, I couldn't do anything outside because of the windchill. We have had a hard time finding a good time to use herbicides this spring because of the wind.

    Brooke

  • rsts
    Original Author
    17 years ago

    Brooke, I have definitely noticed how windy it is. It seems many mornings are not windy until 7:30 to 8:00, or possibly even a little later, but who wants to get up that early just to spray RU. By the time I eat breakfast and look at what is blooming, the wind is usually blowing, at least a little. I have a little shield that fits on the end of the sprayer and have been using that for spraying close to plants. I am now at the point I want to do some big time spraying without the shield, but not while it is windy.

    In looking back over some of the earlier posts, I really like the SIBERIAN SUMMER X VICTORIAN LACE seedling. I know the feeling about nice, but not distinctive enough to register.

    Just looked through my list of daylilies and it now looks like I have only about 12 to 15 tets that I want to use next year. Might try a few dips as something of a lark. Hopefully, I might get a few worthwhile seedlings when those outside bloom.

    BTW, Brooke, what interesting purples are you getting this year?

  • numama
    17 years ago

    Gerard,
    I was reading your pink stripes cross list. I received my pink stripes day before yesterday and Mike sent me 10 seedlings of pink stripes crossed with Eggplant Ecstacy. I doubt they will bloom this year as they are pencil size fans, but had very healthy root systems to them!
    Royce,
    I noticed the question you asked Brooke about the purples. I LOVE purples!
    I wouldn't mind sending you a fan of something to see what you could create out of it since I don't have the time! LOL! I really love looking at yours and Brooke's seedling pictures!
    I think the most interesting ones I should be receiving soon are
    Ana Marie Margetts, Pamela Spencer, Beam Me Up, Michael's Sword, Self Determination, Doyle Pierce, Exquisitely Submersive, Game Theory, Moonlight Sail...and on, and on....Some will be SFs, some DFs....LOVE PURPLES!

    Nancy

  • highjack
    17 years ago

    Interesting, or new to me, purples this year will be LONE WOLF, ROYAL PRESENCE, MOONLIGHT SAIL, MARY LIGHTFINE, ANTIQUE NOVEAU, STORM PRINCE, PREMIER SURPRISE, JERRY NETTLES and ALEXA KATHERYN. I had a couple of those last year but didn't try them purple - the majority of blooms in the seedling field are all light colored blooms and the ones that stood out last year were the bright ones. Almost a relief to the eye to find something of intense color.

    Royce do you also hybridize outside during bloom season?

    Brooke

  • rsts
    Original Author
    17 years ago

    Nancy, thanks for the offer for some purples. Might take you up on the offer. Right now, I am somewhat at a loss as what direction to take. I guess later I will have to look at what I have hybridized this year and seedlings that bloom outside and see what I come up with.

    Brooke, I do not have an absolutely ironclad rule that all my hybridizing is done in the gh, but it is, because: 1) I decide which daylilies I want to use and put them in the gh. 2) I want to hold the number of seeds between 2,000 and 2,500 and I can get that fairly easily in the gh. 3) The outside hybridizing environment here is awful. We have dew almost every night. By the time it dries, it is hot during our outside bloom time and the daylilies have no shade. (Not to mention the hybridizer lol).

    Looks like Brooke and Nancy have some nice purples. I wanted lavender this year. Looks like LAKE EFFECT is the only one that is about what I wanted. I am trying for white by using LE. Zapped lots of things with it today. Have also used CLOTHED IN GLORY and VATICAN CITY a little, but am not sure if they will work.

    Have just about finished hybridizing. Might try a few unconventional crosses just for the heck of it.

    Hope everyone had a nice day. Nice here, except temp hit 90 and a little windy.

  • highjack
    17 years ago

    (tapping fingers impatiently) I'm still wait for the seedling pictures!

    Brooke

  • mareas
    17 years ago

    ..oooh...Lake Effect and Clothed in Glory! I was gonna send my Forbidden Desires off alone with ClothedIG, but maybe not!
    But what I wanted to respond with is that I got a clump of Victorian Lace - I was lucky enough to pick it up in it's pot - and I want to try to cross it with, well, every tet I have! I've got 3 VL sdlgs that look like they will bloom with year - x T Lavender Blue Baby, x Bittersweet Holiday & x Blackthorne - and all of this even tho I've never actually seen a VL flower in person - lol! marea

  • rsts
    Original Author
    17 years ago

    Brooke, don't have many seedling pictures because only those in the gh are blooming and I have shown most of those. I tried to get a better picture of the PEARL HARBOR X VICTORIAN LACE seedling from the seed you sent me. The following is the best I have done so far. The first is overexposed and washed out and the second is a lot more yellow than the real bloom. It was taken in full sun. Anyway, here they are:

    {{gwi:631385}}

    {{gwi:631387}}

    Don't know if I have shown the next one. It is one of my oldest seedlings not composted. I kept it to try to get a wider light edge. Wanted to use VIKING MAGIC with it. With the rust and whatever, I lost it for a while, but found it and am crossing it with VATICAN CITY, FRANCIS OF ASSISI and a seedling.
    ARABIAN MAGIC X Seedling
    {{gwi:631389}}

    I think I have shown the following one before, but I am crossing it with the seedling above, hoping for a wider edge.
    DAVID KIRCHHOFF X UNUSUAL REVELATIONS
    {{gwi:631391}}

    Finally, a couple I would have been proud of a couple of years ago. Will now evaluate at the end of the season. I am sure I will keep them another year, since these are blooms from seeds planted last June.

    Seedling X SHORES OF TIME
    {{gwi:631393}}

    The following is from a cross of two seedlings. I sorta like it for a 9 to 10 seedling, but I have more decent yellows than anything else, so don't know if I will use it in hybridizing.
    {{gwi:631395}}

  • rsts
    Original Author
    17 years ago

    Marea, VICTORIAN LACE is blooming for me this year and is a beauty. I bought it after Brooke recommended it and am glad I did. I really like it. Please show your seedlings when they bloom. I think VL x Tet LBB is an interesting cross. I really don't know what to expect from that one, but am especially interested to see what you get.

    Royce

  • highjack
    17 years ago

    Please please please marea - we sure do want to see those seedlings when they bloom.

    Royce I knew I picked out the good seeds to send you! I really like the width and edge on the PHxVL cross. I love the watermark and light edge on the purple seedling. Hope you can widen the white edge. I do hope WREN'S SONG produces that color and width of petal for me because if it doesn't, I will have to get SOT. Again the width of petals on your yellow seedling is outstanding. For such a baby, the future looks good for it.

    Brooke

  • rsts
    Original Author
    17 years ago

    "Royce I knew I picked out the good seeds to send you!"

    Funny! Hey, I still have two more to bloom this year.

    Thanks for the comments. Brooke, if you decide you want SHORES OF TIME, I can send you a couple of fans in summer/fall, after collecting pods. I have several fans of it.

    Had a couple bloom today that I like from the Royce

  • highjack
    17 years ago

    Since I won't see WREN'S SONG seedlings bloom until '07, I am sooo jealous you are getting a turn around in 10 months on your new purchases. By the time I know if WS produces pretty, you will have a HUGE clump of SOT and I will take you up on your offer.

    I wish I had a big eye/edge to give you but that is not one of my goals. I did look at the Abigian intros and saw a couple of great eyes and edges and immediately thought of you and Edward and drool bib.

    Brooke

  • Edward_Kimball
    17 years ago

    Well, let's see how much we have all changed our minds. I have added some breeding stock that I never thought I would spend so much for. I have Green Mystique, Shores of Time and J T Davis coming in the spring. I have my fingers crossed that I might be getting Victorian Lace for Christmas.I think that these ones might make some beautiful babies.

    Edward
    Timberlea, NS

  • highjack
    17 years ago

    Thanks Edward for bringing this thread back up. What fun to reread it. I did keep to my goals this year (for the most part) but had to make some changes as the older seedlings started blooming.

    If you go back to my first post, you see two reds I was going to use. Guess what, I never found the seedling pictured on the right. I guess it was overlooked in the field when the big dig to move them was done. I know it didn't disappear because there was no marker for it. I guess it went to the big compost heap in the sky. Do ya think the daylily world will be able to move forward because of this loss - ROTFLMBO!

    The red pictured on the left was used heavily. I have a pic on the hard drive but not uploaded yet but will someday, maybe, if I remember. The branching and bud count were outstanding, particularly for one that had been moved in the fall and it was extremely fertile both ways, in a very hot, dry summer. I hope it is a good parent.

    I also mentioned my muddy spuf type blooms. I had very few bloom their second season that remained muddy. In fact, even I was impressed with the clarity of color this year. I also had several that were pod fertile which is VERY difficult on tet spufs so was quite happy with them.

    We wanted to keep the seed number between 1200-1400 seeds. We ended up with 2200 -ooops, math is not my forte`.

    I hope you get VICTORIAN LACE for Christmas too Edward. Were you a good boy?

    Brooke

  • Edward_Kimball
    17 years ago

    I was good enough to overshadow the times I wasn't.

  • highjack
    17 years ago

    Oooops, sounds to me like you will only get a single fan. Hope it makes it through next winter - lol!

    Brooke

  • rsts
    Original Author
    17 years ago

    I had forgotten starting this thread, but agree that it is interesting to see how we did.

    First, I will say that several of the super nice people on this forum sent me plants. That was unexpected, but I greatly appreciate it.

    I was actually trying to get ideas on things to buy, for use next year. I visited Christie's and bought several that were on sale at the end of her selling season. Also, bought a few elsewhere. I had few new seedlings of interest bloom.

    The following are plants that were either given to me, or that I bought, for use in hybridizing.

    ADAMAS
    BELLA SERA
    BELLE COOK
    BLISSFUL BLACKBERRY PIE
    CHARTERED COURSE
    FORBIDDEN FANTASY
    GATHERING SUNSHINE
    IMPERIAL ELEGANCE
    JANE TRIMMER
    LAVENDER HEARTTHROB
    LEDGEWOODS CITATION
    LEMON PARCHMENT
    MORT MORSS
    MORT'S MASTERPIECE
    RAISE THE STANDARD
    SAVANNAH ROYALTY
    SPACECOAST SHARP TOOTH
    SPACECOAST PICOTEE PRINCE
    SPACECOAST SEA SHELLS
    TEXAS BLUE EYES
    TRANQUIL WATERS

    To use Brooke's line - "that ought to be enough to keep me off the streets and out of bars".

    Royce

  • Edward_Kimball
    17 years ago

    I got it. I got Victorian Lace and Unending Melody as well. That makes 3 out of four from my wish list. The only one missing is Belle Cook. The third from the wish list was J T Davis that I am getting through a trade. I am feeling very spoiled

    Edward

  • rsts
    Original Author
    17 years ago

    Congratulations Edward. You must have been a really good boy!

  • highjack
    17 years ago

    OR smart enough not to get caught!

    Congrats on the VICTORIAN LACE, you will love it.

    Brooke

  • Edward_Kimball
    17 years ago

    I must have done something right. I think that next summer I will try my luck at making crosses with the intention of selling seeds. I am going to have some bloom next summer in the seedling bed but not enough to cull the uglies back for room for new ones. Selling seeds might help pay for some of the daylilies I bought too.

    Edward

  • Edward_Kimball
    17 years ago

    Bordom and the lily auction got me again. I won Mississippi Memories. It should make a wonderful parent.

    Edward

  • highjack
    17 years ago

    Boredom is bad. What daylily are you giving away to plant MM on your property? Nice shopping!

    Brooke

  • Edward_Kimball
    17 years ago

    Some clumps that are leaving are: Leebea Orange Crush, Condilla, Mardi Gras Parade, Siloam Bo Peep, Orchid Candy and an apricot seedling. Bertie Ferris and Happy Returns might be going too.

    Edward

  • Edward_Kimball
    17 years ago

    Boredom got me some more: Musical Interlude, Piping Rock, Rock Solid and Time Drifter.

    Edward

  • Edward_Kimball
    17 years ago

    Boredom got me some more: Musical Interlude, Piping Rock, Rock Solid and Time Drifter.

    Edward

  • highjack
    17 years ago

    Can we say BYE BYE BERTIE and UNHAPPY RETURNS hit the road now. Geesh, Edward it is not even March yet and in your zone, you have many more months of boredom ahead of you.

    Brooke

  • weednsmile
    16 years ago

    There are many new and beautiful daylilies for hybridizing, but bringing some of the good ole '60s, '70s and 80's daylilies back into the hybridizing pool is so very interesting and rewarding and many times produces strong genes to work with. So crossing an older daylily with the latest is my way of having a ball in the garden.
    Remember a weed is only an unwanted flower!

  • highjack
    16 years ago

    I have lots of unwanted flowers if anyone wants to come and dig some.

    Brooke

  • considerhowtheygrow
    16 years ago

    Brooke -

    Where are you located? I might be coming your way from east TN to pick up my daughter who will be catching a ride to Kentucky (probably Lexington) on her way home from college. The prospect of digging some new daylilies sounds good to me.

    Sue

  • Edward_Kimball
    16 years ago

    Brooke,

    Have you ever crossed Victorian Lace with JT Davis? It is a cross I am hoping to make this summer for my own garden.

    Edward

  • kydaylilylady
    16 years ago

    Uh Sue, I think Brooke was talking weeds here....

    Janet

  • considerhowtheygrow
    16 years ago

    Am I the fool?!! - I really thought she had daylilies she wanted to discard like Edward was doing - or was he joking too? I would like what he doesn't want; they would look great on my bank where I just need a bit of color and nice green leaves. Oh well Brooke - I thought you were serious. Now we can all laugh - because I DON'T want her weeds!!

    Sue

    PS - shame on you all for tricking a newbie!! hehe

  • highjack
    16 years ago

    Sue you're more than welcome to stop by and if I can't interest you in any bluegrass weeds, you can help me cut back hosta mush and some of the daylilies that are tan. Thankfully, not all will have to be cut back but some and I could certainly use some help, particularly with a young back attached to a younger body than mine. What college does your daughter attend?

    Edward I don't have JT DAVIS but it should do well with VICTORIAN LACE and hopefully the seedlings will take the scape height from VL and not JTD. I have about three JTD kids left from some seed I purchased on the LA a few years back but all have short scapes.

    Sorry Sue, wasn't trying to trick anyone, just get free help. Are you sure you don't want bluegrass weeds?

    Brooke

  • katlynn719
    16 years ago

    Don't feel bad, Sue. I thought the same thing you did. But I can't use the newbie excuse. Instead, I'm going to insist that I was in a rush and didn't have TIME to read carefully.
    ;-)
    Gotta watch out for that Brooke...she's the Tom Sawyer of the Daylily Forum and always has a fence to whitewash.
    Kathy

  • highjack
    16 years ago

    Oh no Kathy, not me. I like my picket fence being natural color and don't really want it whitewashed. BUT I do have some edging that I want laid and would be happy to let anyone practice putting it down so they can learn the technique for their garden. What can I say, I love teaching.

    Brooke

  • considerhowtheygrow
    16 years ago

    Brooke -

    I'm sure - I don't want bluegrass weed!!!!!!!!! But I do like helping people .... but don't hold your breath.... I'm just too far away (whew - got out of that one!). Besides, I have an old back too.

    My daughter attends Wheaton College in Chicago and she expects to get a ride to Lexington. I will have to travel about 4 hours to pick her up there and return to Kingsport, TN. This is her first year and we (her three siblings and parents) are eager to have her home.

    Thanks for being so friendly everyone. I feel very welcome, especially on the conversations site.

    Sue

    PS - Kathy - glad you read what I read - free unwanted FLOWERS - they just had to be daylilies - huh

  • mizellie
    16 years ago

    Well, I don't want to be a spoil sport but I knew exactly what Brooke meant. I mean, like, who throws away perfectly good daylilies other than Royce.

    I have been re-reading this thread and find a lot of fun and interesting thoughts. However, I have not been able to add anything to the breeding end because we all know I just slap dab and hope for the best. Have a good daylily season, everyone...Ellie

  • Edward_Kimball
    16 years ago

    I guess I am the oddball then because I have a hundred daylilies and only room for about 50 so I am clearing out lots of the old ones. I am finding good homes for those I can and donating the rest to the local club. With the recent uproar over tissue culture some may even end up in the compost heap.

    Edward

  • laurelin
    16 years ago

    Hmm, rereading here too. I don't have a "favorite" for hybridizing - but I do have to say that I'm developing some preferences as far as flower form, height, etc. that will guide my breeding more this year. Last year I had a ball, dabbing all over the place. This year I will TRY to be a little more selective, and I've made a few purchases based on breeding potential as well as beauty. I don't have a single favorite breeder (although you all know how much fun I had with 'Ida Miles' last year, because she bloomed FOREVER and set pods like no tomorrow). Now I've got to winnow what I have in my yard down to what I really want to breed with, and plant the others at my friend Becky's house so they can clump up. (Maybe I'll teach her boys how to hybridize with them - that would be a GREAT home school unit, doncha think?)

    Laurel

  • Edward_Kimball
    16 years ago

    Laurel,

    That sounds like a great idea. By the way one more daylily snuck into my basket. Don't you hate when that happens? It is Ribbons and Things. I hope these evergreens get used to it up here. I figure I may name my first intro North Atlantic. Hey, if Frank Smith can name one South Pacific...

    Edward

  • Edward_Kimball
    16 years ago

    Guess what I got as a birthday present from my mother-inlaw: Belle Cook.

    Edward

  • katlynn719
    16 years ago

    What a nice mother-in-law!
    Happy Birthday, Edward!
    And many more.
    Kathy

    PS - what happened to Royce? I never see him anymore.

  • Edward_Kimball
    16 years ago

    Hi Kathy thanks. The birthday isn't for another 13 days but the daylily will be showing up before this weekend so she thought I should know to expect it. She is a pretty awesome mother-inlaw. I now have what I consider to be the three best daylilies for hybridizing - at least for my tastes: Belle Cook, Victorian Lace and JT Davis. Now it is time or the waiting game. It takes along time to go from parent blooming to seedling blooming. It is at least 2 and a half years here.

    Edward

  • katlynn719
    16 years ago

    2 1/2 years? Bummer. I don't know if I have the patience.

    You could move to FL and have this in 10 months -
    {{gwi:631396}}

    Of course you have to be willing to take all the insects and disease with the early blooms. And there are no Belle Cooke or JT Davis kids in that group. But I did get Victorian Lace last year (a freebie from Maryott's)...and VL has scapes. I'm waiting impatiently on the blooms/pollen. So maybe next year I'll have some VL seedlings.
    Kathy

  • tweetypye
    16 years ago

    What a great birthday present Edward. You've got a sweet MIL. I got BC last fall, and it now has a scape, so I'm waiting for my first blooms on it. I got VL from Maryott's as a freebie to Kathy, and it bloomed in the fall after it arrived. I've got seedlings coming up now of VL X Impressionistic...a Maryott intro and VL x VL.
    Edward, a very sweet friend shared his JTD with me this spring and I have a very robust fan growing in a pot now. Hopefully I'll get some blooms and can use JTD's pollen on VL and maybe some others too.
    Jan