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Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

Posted by davemichigan z6 (SE Michigan) (My Page) on
Thu, Feb 14, 08 at 14:25

Can I cross diploids with tetraploids? For some reason I thought that is not doable, but while searching Tinkster I found some cultivars that are children of TET and DIP.

But I am also getting contradicting information. The site below says you can only cross TET with TET and DIP with DIP.
http://www.dallasdaylilies.com/hybridize.html

It also says that "daylilies do not self pollinate themselves. In order words, if you have cultivar Red Volunteer, you cannot produce another Red Volunteer by pollinating the flower back onto itself." Is this true?


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

Hi Dave!

You can only cross Tet to Tet and Dip to Dip. That said, there are a few exceptions. Some Dips have been chemically converted to Tet and thus you will see registrations of the Tet form of an individual cultivar. That said, there are a few exceptions. A chimera is a daylily that has both Dip and Tet pollen. Typically this is when chemical conversion was attempted on a Dip plant but was incomplete, thus both Dip and Tet pollen is present.

A hybridizer/researcher named Nick Chase has done work in breeding "naturally occuring tetraploids". I've included a link to a newsletter featuring his work.

Hope I didn't confuse you. If you stick with crossing DIP with DIP and TET with TET, you'll do just fine :~)

If you cross pollen from RED VOLUNTEER back onto RED VOLUNTEER, you will get seedlings that look a lot like RED VOLUNTEER but are not exactly identical to RED VOLUNTEER phenotypically or genotypically. Most may look identical but none will be an exact copy of RED VOLUNTEER. Crossing back onto the parents can be the beginning of what is called "line breeding" and many hybridizers use this as a tool for developing new traits or "fixing" traits or accentuating desirable traits. Just remember that when you cross back onto the parents or related breeding stock, that you can get double doses of the desirable trait....but also double doses of less-desirable traits (ie decreased vigor).

Hope this helps!

Leslie
Zone 6, Rhode Island

Leslie
Zone 6, Rhode Island

Here is a link that might be useful: Petaloid January 2008


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

Leslie, thanks. I do understand what you said about Red Volunteer. I think the statement from the web site is incorrect then, or at least inaccurate. It says "daylilies do not self pollinate themselves." And then it goes on and gives an example, but the example is illustrating that since Red Volunteer will not be true to breed because it is a cross.


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self pollination

Daylilies do self pollinate but they do not produce the same plant. A good example is STELLA D'ORO. It is seen in many landscape settings with pods all over it. The pollen is very close to the pistil and a breeze, but mostly a bee or other insect, initiates fertilization.

Are you going to make crosses this summer?

I started hybridizing a few years ago. I was elated when I made my first cross and emailed a friend with the good news. She promptly informed me that I had crossed a DIP with a TET and obviously, I didn't get any seeds out of it.

Be sure to indicate on your daylily marker(nameplate) whether it is a DIP or TET to make it easier when you are making crosses.

Leslie
Zone 6, Rhode Island


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

It should be pointed out and a distinction drawn between species daylilies and the hybrid daylilies that are commonly available commercially.

It is true that hybrid daylilies do not normally reproduce true from seed, even when selfed.

However, these hybrids were derived from the species daylilies, and many of the species daylilies do reproduce true from seed. The species daylilies consist of diploids, triploids and possibly tetraploids, depending on who you ask.
Ed


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

Leslie, yes, I am definitely going to try some crossing this summer. This will be my first time doing it. It is hard though to wait for two years before I can see the result. :(

Ed, thanks for the information. I didn't know that before. Is there anyway I can tell/find whether a particular daylily is species or hybrid?


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

The first year after crossing seeds is the hardest since there will be no seedlings blooming that year, but if you consistently plant a seedling crop each year thereafter....then you should have new seedlings to enjoy each year going forward.

I started with purchased seeds from the LA and some seeds generously given to me by friends. If you could do the same and get them into the ground this year, then you could enjoy seedling bloom next year and your first crosses the year after. This is definitely NOT the hobby for impatient people :~) I made my first crosses in 2004 but planted gift/purchased seeds that year. I had those bloom in 2005 and the first results of my own hybridizing in 2006. So I've only had 2 years of seedlings of my own to evaluate but I've been at this since 2004. Also, any idea for a cross that you dream up or a cross that you what to try out....you have to wait 2 years to test your theory. Sometimes, by then, you are seeing the seedling bloom and wonder why you ever made the cross in the first place!!

The most important step is starting and getting your program going!!!

We need more cold hardy hybridizers to create rock solid hardy daylilies for the North....I'm thrilled to hear you will be hyridizing!

Leslie
Zone 6, Rhode Island

Here is a link that might be useful: Leslie's Seedlings


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

I just looked at Leslie's Seedlings---Oh My- such beautiful flowers. Are they registered? Are you going to put any of them on the market? I particularly like the first four.

Keep up the good work and show us the pictures.

Kay


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy - 2

davemichigan - where in Southeastern Michigan are you? So
am I.

Kay


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

Thanks Kay!!

None are registered yet - all seedlings. The first four are my favorites too! That's why they are the "FIRST Four" :~)

The first one, 07126, has bloomed for two years. It has hardiness (in Rhode Island), and good bud count/branching. The color is nice and clear and it is fragrant. This is the closest I've come to a registration and I will evaluate it one more year. I am looking to introduce it.

The other three - 07045, 07068 and 07069 all bloomed for the first time during the summer of 2007. So I need to observe bloom at least another two years before making a decision.

I don't care for muddy flowers or poorly formed sepals. So far, these four have nice clear color and tame sepals. I'm certainly pleased and these have exceeded my expectations.

Thanks again!

Leslie
Zone 6, Rhode Island


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

Leslie, a friend going to give me several crosses, so yes, I do save a year that way not having to wait for my own crosses. Some far I have bought 3 plants from LA and will probably buy 4 more. All of them are/will be from the North, so they will be cold hardy. Yea!

Your seedlings look great. I like 07149, 07144, 07101, 07045, but they all look great!


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy1

Phaltyme21, I am in Canton. How about you?

(The system didn't allow me to enter a second message after the previous one. I had to the the subject. That is a little strange to me.)


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Seedlings

Thanks Dave!

Glad to hear you will have some seeds to plant this year. It will give you good practice on germinating growing daylily seeds so that you are experienced when growing your own seeds. When I first started out I had VERY poor germination rates. I started the seeds indoors with very weak lighting and in too cold a location. The seeds were weak and spindly, reaching for what little light I gave them. Some survived and I have a couple I'm keeping around. But mostly it was good practice.

I'm glad you like 07149 and, if you can believe it, that seed bloomed in one year!! I planted it indoors in January 2007, planted it outside in May 2007 and it bloomed in September 2007! That is rather rare up here in the north and 07153 did the same by blooming in one year. 07149 also appears to be very vigorous going from seed to four fans during the same period. Of course, this is it's first winter and it could be rotting out in the back yard as we speak, but I hope not!!!

Leslie
Zone 6, Rhode Island


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

Dave,
Click on the link below. It will take you to the AHS dictionary page for the term species and give you some information.
Ed

Here is a link that might be useful: AHS Dictionary


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

Wait a minute! You can cross SOME Diploids with pollen from Tetraploids, and the resulting in plants that will be Tetraploid.

I have been using a form of H. fulva that Darrell Apps brought back from Korea, and it sets seed nearly 100% of the time when pollinated with Tetraploid pollen. You only get on the average of 5 seeds per pod. Ok before you say it, the plant is fertile when pollinated with diploid seed, but the difference is interesting, the seeds are always smaller, and average about 15 per pod, AND if I do not pollinate a bloom a pod will not form.

Stout pollinated H. fulva Europa thousands of times to get only a few seeds. He pollinated it with its own triploid pollen, but if you use Tetraploid pollen on it you will do somewhat better. In 2006 about half way through the bloom cycle, I decided to try polllinating it with Tetraploid pollen. I just took pollen from boldly eyed cultivars and dabbed away, I didn't mark anything, and I got 4 seeds from 1 pod, and 3 from another. In 2007 I pollinated every bloom, literally hundreds of them, with whatever caught my fancy, eyed, edged, spidery, and the results were 9 pods with 21 seeds. Not much but better than Stouts results.

There are other Diploids that will accept Tetraploid pollen, ED MURRAY in another, but so far I only have 3 seeds to show for my efforts.

The first crosses will from the Korean H. fulva will bloom next summer.


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

Dave, I am in Garden City.

I had the same problem and had to start completely over. What a nuisance.

Kay


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

Perhaps I should keep out of this one but I may shed some light on it there is ED MURRY, the org. one was a dip ,the converted one is a tet side by side thay look the same ,only the genes have changed and yes the tet does work on dips . There has been a lot of books and articles on genes ,cromosomes and mutations and gene expression. However, one of the little known facts is one of the daylilies is Ice Carnival that can be used as a crossover plant where the pollen can be used on either dip. or tet. There are others that do work. A couple of the plants that I came up with, using pollen from Ice Carnival on a tet. were nice plants when fully grown, but they were infertile. Any one out there have any ideas? There are a few other plants that are crossovers, but I am finding out that working with polys is more fascinating all the time.

Dick


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

Living organisms are variable and generally there is always at least one to break any 'rule'. Keeping this in mind, here are the general rules for daylilies.

Diploids and tetraploids do not cross to produce living seedlings.

Diploids are not self-fertile but tetraploids tend to be self-fertile.

Triploids are basically sterile.

Neither species nor cultivars breed 'true'.

Now the details and exceptions.

If one makes a large number of diploid x tetraploid crosses using many different parents and one uses proper scientific hybridizing techniques (opens buds, removes anthers, bags buds, pollinates stigma, bags flower, etc) then there will be a very very low number of seedlings produced. A researcher did this and produced 9 seedlings on average for every 500 pollinations. Eight would be triploids and one would be a tetraploid.

If one does not use 'safe' scientific pollinating techniques then any seedlings produced could have been produced from natural pollinations or contaminated pollen of unknown ploidy.

It is theoretically possible that if one tests enough cultivars (hundreds, thousands) one might find a cultivar with a genetically based ability to cross with a tetraploid and produce more seedlings.

The opposite cross of tetraploid x diploid never worked for the researcher (who made several thousand pollinations).

The cultivar 'Ed Murray' is the only known diploid to have crossed with tetraploids and to have been verified. Although an attempt was made using colchicine to double the chromosomes of the diploid version to produce a tetraploid version, the person who did this later indicated that he did not think the attempt worked.

'Ed Murray' has the giant pollen size that indicates it can produce unusual pollen that can work with tetraploids.

Most of the original daylily species were self-incompatible (self-pollinations did not work or work extremely poorly with few seeds and poor seedlings if any). Only the group of related species to Hemerocallis flava were self-compatible (including H. flava var. minor). Stella D'Oro is probably derived from the flava/minor group of species.

Most diploid cultivars are not self-fertile. Most natural pollinations in out-breeding species such as daylilies are out-crosses rather than self-crosses. Even in Stella the 'bee-pods' do not need to be self-pollinations and are often not.

Triploids have poor fertility, but they show a range of fertility (most cultivars with low fertility but rare cultivars with more normal fertility) and they can have different fertility with diploids versus tetraploids. Some triploids can have acceptable fertility with tetraploids. In general, a triploid's fertility will be better with a tetraploid than with a diploid.

I would be interested in knowing who tested the H. fulva (Apps) from Korea to determine it is a diploid. My guess is that the seedlings from the cross with the tetraploid pollen are triploids if the species is a diploid with 22 chromosomes.

Species seem to breed true because the genetic variation they show is much more subtle - they tend to look much more alike than do the cultivars. For most species, their seedlings are just as variable, when they are examined in depth, as the children produced by most families.


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

Admmad, Well look who woke up! Long time no see, I was just thinking about you!

I asked that question of Joe Halinar about the H. fulva from Korea. He told me that he checked the pollen under a microscope, and that it had Diploid pollen. I also asked him who discovered that it was fertile x Tet pollen, and the answer was "I did". Last summer I pollinated one clump of it with diploid pollen, I got an average of 18 seeds per pod, the other clump was pollinated with Tet pollen and I get an average of 5 seeds per pod. What really surprised me was the difference in size. The Diploid pods got bigger, contained more seeds, but they were smaller that the seeds from the Tet crossings.

BTW the seeds from The H. fulva Europa X Tet pollen from last year all germinated, and the ones from 2007 all still look good, I will be planting them next month.


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

Glad you spoke out bambi Ive done the same thing and was told in so many words I was full of it notice I didnt put the first two letters in front of it.try ice carnival its an old plant but does very well and you will be surprised at the siblings I have read a lot of art.by Joseph Halinar on fertility in daylilies as well as problems in fertility.Mike Hubens writes good articles. Take Care Dick


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

admmad,
Thanks for clarifying. It is good to see you posting. Hope you've been well.
Ed


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

  • Posted by virgo45 Toronto,Canada (My Page) on
    Sat, Mar 22, 08 at 23:08

I have Ice Carnival and always assumed that it was a tetraploid. In 2003 I crossed it with just about every Tet. in my garden and gave up recording and tagging each cross as it never produced a seed pod. Finally it did produce a seed pod but I have no idea who the pollen parent was other than it was a tetraploid. I am assuming that I made the cross and that a bee or the wind or what ever did not make the cross. The pod produced 5 seeds and only one matured and flowered in 2006. The picture below is the seedling from that cross. The shape of the flower is similar to Ice Carnival. Since 2003 I have tried IC both as a pod and pollen parent with both dips. and tets. but with no success. The pods will start to develop but dry up and fall off in a few weeks.


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

Dont mean to burst your bubble but that picture is not Ice Carnival . Ice CArnival is a near white and reg by CHILDS, who reg. it as a DIP. I couldnt tell you what your pic shows,try the real one your results will be better. DICK


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

I think virgo said that the picture above was of a seedling from the cross, NOT of Ice Carnival itself.


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

  • Posted by virgo45 Toronto,Canada (My Page) on
    Sun, Mar 23, 08 at 17:26

Thanks traceyanne, you are correct, and here is Ice Carnival.


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

sorry about that vergo but its still reg as a dip and by many is considered a crossover plant ad you did it thinking it was a tet mine came out with another near white and pink hope to have a few more this year. Dick


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

Leslie - I normally prefer pink daylilies, but #06001 is my absolute favorite. There's not a bad one in the bunch though. They're all winners.

Laurie


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

Hi Laurie!

Thanks SO much for your kind words in regards to 06001. It will always have a special place in my heart as it was the first seedling to ever bloom for me in which I made the seed. Here is a link to the first bloom it ever had:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2045/2369451938_6843a4e7b2.jpg

It amazes me how much a bloom changes from the first year to successive years. Here is the link to 06001 the second year it bloomed so that everyone can see how different they are:

http://mysite.verizon.net/resyfnio/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/06001.jpg

The moral of this story.....Don't throw any seedling away the first year it blooms (not that I would have thrown this one out...) because they change SO much!!

06001 is a hard dormant and I'm looking to use it to work towards as dormant a hybridizing program as possible. It is a slow increaser, having 4 fans after 3 years of growth. But I will definitely keep it. I have a sibling, not nearly as pretty, that is a fast increaser with great bud count and branching. I'm hoping that sib crosses will give me the pretty face of 06001 on a dormant, high performing plant for the north....We shall see :~)

LeslieinRI

Here is a link that might be useful: Leslie's Seedlings


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

Leslie what beautiful babies. No wonder you're hooked. I can only hope to have some beauties like that this summer.


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

  • Posted by okbt z4NY (My Page) on
    Fri, Mar 28, 08 at 22:13

Very pretty! All have relatively good habits?


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

Thanks Joan and Betsy!!!

Joan, you will have beauties like these and better!! Just start crossing the daylilies that you like and then pursue the seedlings out of your crosses that you are drawn to the most. Some great advice I got right here at Gardenweb several years ago was from Gary Colby, the man not the daylily :~) I'm severely paraphrasing but he said to splurge on one new intro and put that pollen on everything in your garden (of the same ploidy...). From that one intro you can get hundreds, if not thousands, of seeds....all with "new to the market" genetics. I was fortunate to have been given the opportunity to split a hybridizer's new intro collection very early in my career and I was able to use brand new pollen as a new pollen dabber. I was very fortunate and got some real nice stuff to start with. Just track down one new introduction that you find yourself drawn to and use every grain of pollen it produces....You will get some gorgeous seedlings I promise!!!

Betsy - some have great habits....some don't....and most are too new to tell. 80% of the seedlings on that webpage were first year flowering so I cannot judge bc/branching just yet. Another 15% bloomed in 9 months from seed, an admirable feat up here in the north. Again, any bc/branching cannot be judged so soon. A lot of evaluations will be done this year and I may even line out one or two for possible introduction. This is EXTREMELY exciting to me and nerve wracking at the same time since I've never introduced before. But I'm thrilled and grateful to have come so far....

LeslieinRI


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

Since I am such a newbie to daylilies, is there a site where I can see if my babies should be Dips or Tets. Or is there a simple way by just looking at them ? This is what I germinated last winter and have planted out in my holding bed. Just have a small city lot, so my space is limited and it's just for my own pleasure as well.

Bat Masterson X Meet Joe Black Meet
Joe Black X Border Music
Meet Joe Black X Carribean Midnight Vespers
Border Heritage X Montana Sky
Big Kiss dbl Samantha Clair X Red Eyed Fantasy
Dbl Apricot - cream bee
Potion for Passion X Pure Indulgence
Sanford Show Girl X Big Kiss
Ed Brown X Classic Edge
Classic Edge X John Peat
Breaking with Tradition

Thanks for your help


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

  • Posted by okbt z4NY (My Page) on
    Sat, Mar 29, 08 at 10:22

Go to the site below to Tinker's Database and type in the cultivar name and click search. You will get all the info on it.

Bat Masterson X Meet Joe Black Meet - Tet
Joe Black X Border Music - Tet
Meet Joe Black X Carribean Midnight Vespers - Tet
Border Heritage X Montana Sky - Tet
Big Kiss dbl- Dip
Samantha Clair X Red Eyed Fantasy - Dip
Dbl Apricot - cream bee - Dip
Potion for Passion X Pure Indulgence - Tet
Sanford Show Girl X Big Kiss - Dip
Ed Brown X Classic Edge - Tet
Classic Edge X John Peat- Tet
Breaking with Tradition - Tet

Here is a link that might be useful: Tinkers


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

Wow, thanks for the link, and doing all the leg work for me.
Joan


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

Dave in Michigan said "Your seedlings look great. I like 07149, 07144, 07101, 07045, but they all look great!"

Dave,

I was out in my garden yesterday doing a rough inventory of what made it and what didn't. You had commented earlier about liking seedling 07149. Well, to my surprise, 07149 is up to 7 fans! Considering this was a seed back in January 2007 and is up to 7 fans 14 months later, it's vigor is unparalleled in my northern garden....I am elated over it :~)

Here are a few photos if anyone is interested. Both photos are first year bloom, only 9 months from seed. Those who have had the opportunity to evaluate seedlings know that they can change quite dramatically after the first year of bloom. Hopefully dramatically better....

http://mysite.verizon.net/resyfnio/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/07149.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3187/2348995755_cf1c76fc57.jpg

Foliage looks to be semi-evergreen and the cross is TAOS X seedling.

LeslieinRI


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

Ok, so I just got CANTIQUE last year, which is listed as a TET, and the parents are Sdlg. x LITTLE INFANT, which is listed as a DIP. Is this one of those special cases? Looks like CANTIQUE has 12 children listed, 11 DIPs and 1 TET (Loblolly Karen)...

LeslieinRI, I love 07144! But they are all beauts! Lemme know if you ever need a southern foster garden! :o)


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RE: Daylily Crossing and Ploidy

"I asked that question of Joe Halinar about the H. fulva from Korea. He told me that he checked the pollen under a microscope, and that it had Diploid pollen. I also asked him who discovered that it was fertile x Tet pollen, and the answer was "I did". Last summer I pollinated one clump of it with diploid pollen, I got an average of 18 seeds per pod, the other clump was pollinated with Tet pollen and I get an average of 5 seeds per pod. What really surprised me was the difference in size. The Diploid pods got bigger, contained more seeds, but they were smaller that the seeds from the Tet crossings"

There are a few scientific grey areas with checking pollen to determine if it is diploid or tetraploid in size. If I have a diploid cultivar and use colchicine (or other chemicals) to create a tetraploid version of it I can then compare the pollen size of the diploid with the pollen size of the tetraploid. The tetraploid will have pollen that on average is 30-40% larger in physical dimensions (length, width) or about double the volume.

However, if I take a random sample of diploid cultivars and a random sample of tetraploid cultivars and measure their pollen and then graph the results I will find that the diploid and tetraploid pollen sizes overlap. The largest diploid pollen is larger than the smallest tetraploid pollen. Nor is there a simple relationship (or a known relationship) between plant or flower size and pollen size for daylilies.

So pollen that looks like it is diploid size might actually be tetraploid but smaller than is typical for tetraploids. Checking pollen of a plant that was collected is not a good method for determining ploidy. Counting its chromosomes is the best method with the lowest chance of producing an uncertain answer.

Triploid pollen size is usually variable but fits in between diploid and tetraploid pollen sizes and so any plant with variable pollen sizes may be a triploid.

There are known fertile triploid daylilies.

The only way to know for certain whether any daylily is diploid, triploid or tetraploid is to check and count the chromosomes in its cells.

Seed and pod size are inter-related (as are seed numbers and fruit size and shape in many plants). The more seeds in a pod the larger the pod will be on average. The total amount of resources a plant can put into a pod is typically limited by its biology (at some value - depending on where it is growing, how well it is grown, how large the plant is, how many pods are set, etc). So the larger each individual seed the smaller the number of seeds the pod can support. Plants will abort seeds if there are too many in a pod to support their proper development; they will also abort pods if there are too many. Tetraploid seeds have tetraploid (larger) cells and therefore are typically larger than diploid seeds (again the distributions will overlap for diploids and tetraploids with triploids in between). A pod with many diploid smaller seeds would be equivalent to a pod with fewer larger triploid seeds and perhaps even fewer and larger tetraploid seeds.

Dr. Halinar first suggested that diploid x tetraploid crosses could produce tetraploid seedlings. However, many years before, a researcher had tested that idea and found it to be extremely rare. The researcher physically prevented insects from naturally pollinating the test flowers.

It would be interesting to check the chromosomes of the Korean fulva (which may have been found in a botanical institute garden) and its seedlings with tetraploids and diploids.


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

Hi everyone,

This is an old thread, but I just saw it since it was brought back up. I started hybridizing daylilies this summer, but have experience breeding other genera. So far, I have around 40 pods that seem to have taken, but of course, you never know till you harvest them.

Leslie, I don't know if you will read this post, but if you do, you have some very nice "kids"! And I was wondering if it would be too much to ask if you could indicate what the parents are for each one of those beauties? By experience, I know one can learn a great deal by knowing who were the parents and compare with the children.

Of course, I know that there is never a sure shot with hybrids, but by seeing many and knowing what the parents are, I've learned a great deal about what are some of the dominant or recessive traits that have the best chances to be passed on to the offsprings. Some are reluctant to pass on this information, but it sure is one way of learning and may help avoiding some mistakes.

Laurier
My web site


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

Hey all...just reading again how daylilies don't bloom first year...out of my first 16 seeds from my first crosses in 2011, 8 of them bloomed in the 2012 season...the one in the pic, 'Buttercup', was the first...so some DO bloom first year...there's just no way to tell which ones will.


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

Another first year bloom....


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

I have flowered quite a few H. fulva Korean x Tet crosses the past couple of years and all of them have proven to be highly fertile Tet's.

H. fulva Korean x LAVENDER ARROWHEAD
Korean fulva x lavender arrowhead photo RSCN0491.jpg

X CHICKEN ON THE RUN I'll have to look for a photo of a fully open bloom.
 photo DSCN0926-1.jpg


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

Daylily seedlings certainly can bloom the first year, depending on the climate. I usually have around 1/3 of our fall-planted seedlings bloom the following spring at 8 to 9 months of age. But then, our garden is in zone 8.

Nancy


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

Well, after a long hiatus I am trying to start raising a few daylilies from seed again. I doubt if you pros would call it hybridizing, more playing in the back yard,but, I have fun and sometimes work myself up to a minor obsessed state, as I have been this week. I first crossed a daylily in 1987, wild Europa pollen on an unknown red. Didn't do to well but obtained eight or so seeds. Have never been able to identify the little red pod parent, the seedlings bloomed in 1989 and I have lost them in the weeds but they are still alive. The little red is a vigorous multiplier and I have five or so clumps also lost in the weeds--I shall have to find the little plant as it is a small, slender, coppery red that works well in old gardens. I really think it may be a species. Over the years I've sporadically raised a few early crosses, Orangeman with potted Red Magic, various mixes of middendorfs and lemon lily, once a cross of an unknown early that rebloomed in August with August Orange--and raised a red and an eyed orange seedling that are strong growers and the earliest reds I know. After a year of health and family problems I am back in the jungle of my garden and managed some early crosses-minor with Lemon Lily, I think Stout was right when he wrote they were really different species unalike from root to seed. The H minor has fibrous roots, narrow leaves, slender branched scapes, and in the last weeks I can compare the seed pods---small, slender, in minor; as big as an egg in flava. I think the seeds will differ too, tiny for minor, large for flava. I shall see.The other thing that got me running out to the rain soaked mess I call Eden after the fall was that I found seven or eight seedlings I'd planted in 2011 of Ed Murray and Saratoga Pinwheel---about to bloom! They are a mess of Spring Sickness but have grown right past it and are producing big bright red blooms on varying tallness of scapes so I am in a real tizzy out there every morning to see what the next will look like. Another seedling that I labeled the seed Ed Murray X Orchid corsage is also blooming--and I have a couple seedlings of this one with Wild Horses of all things. so I am now thinking of getting out there and getting some half sibling crosses with Ed in both parents and trying for some more with Wild Horses. Perhaps my sanity is slipping!!-------------------------------------------Weedy


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

Well, my computer is acting up and I'm having trouble getting photos to behave---the first is Ed Murray X(possibly)Orchid Corsage, at least that was the pollen I think I used----then I tried for a photo of my spring blooming red Unknown Spring species hybrid X August Orange. I have a running battle with this computer.--------------------------Weedy


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RE: Dailily Crossing and Ploidy

im new to this, so i do not have any opinion or info to offer on the original questions...but i do know that i have seen some crosses listed as being from both TET and DIP. its usually marked Forced DIP or Forced TET. is this "forced" term what someone was referring to as chemically altering the plant?


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