This is interesting to me as well. I'm finding that some of my plants increase very quickly, and most of those are dips. Others haven't increased much or at all in 2-3 years. My seedlings (all tets) are just starting to increase after 2 years.

I think rate of increase is sometimes expressed as "vigor," although I don't know that there is a standard measure of it. It also varies depending on sunlight, water, climate, and a thousand other things. I'm seeing a clear difference between seedlings that get more sun and the ones that gets less.

Nate

Nate, I too have noticed differences in environmental conditions effecting the rate of increase, but I one particular starter bed... two seedlings who get the same watering, share the same dirt, etc. as the rest of the entire bed (25 seedlings in all) those two in particular are rapidly increasing where as the others are performing at what I expected to be normal (1 or 2 fans per year) So, I am assuming those two have better genetics for increase habit than their siblings and other garden bed mates. If indeed it is genetics then I wonder if as a whole breeders might track that sort of thing for their seedlings, but I don't find that information unless I talk directly to the breeder. When I do visit other breeders and chat about their work and intros, they usually seem to know their own, So why not put it into the literature of the variety? I just wondered if others don't find it important?

DMP: - Many, if not most, daylily breeders DO include 'vigorouness' (Rapid fan development) in their website descriptions (But it does NOT transfer into AHS registration data.). When you do find a breeder who is not specifically expressing that his seedling or registered cultivar is vigorous, then it's best to assume that it may be slow .... very slow ... or even (almost) non-existent. I have several diploid seedlings - out of vigorous parents - that are still single fans 3+ years after maiden-bloom where some of their siblings are at up to 20+ fans already. My observations lead me to conclude that diploids are probably - probably - more prone to rapid fan development than tetraploids. However, having said that there are tets that do expand quickly, vigorously.

Beside your thoughts regarding the genetic predisposition for vigorousness, I've been forming an opinion that the daylily's capability to utilize nutrients with photosynthesis is also a contributing characteristic (Metabolism; 'digestion' efficiency; Roots 'uptake'; etc.) ... This certainly does apply to high production domestic animal breeding & with some limited research to-date, seems to be a factor with food-crop plant breeders' considerations. (One recent study I have read about is working with rice - the grain crop - to increase plant productivity by specifically focusing on improving photosynthesis efficiencies.)

Thus both 'good genetics' coupled with 'efficient metabolism' would be required whatever is being bred for improvements.

I find this aspect of plant care & collecting & breeding very interesting & find snippets of info often as I am researching for something else. Should you not already be aware of 'Charlotte's Daylily Website' I would suggest you go there to find many (MANY!!) breeders' websites collected on one site. Diploid breeders such as Huben + Sobek + Rood + Derrow + C. Turner + R. Norris + P.Owens do routinely include 'vigorousness' in their introductions descriptions because, for the most part, they are actually including such a trait in their breeding & selection targets criteria.

Additionally pretty well ALL the cultivars listed under certain trademark groups (marketing strategies) have proven to be vigorous performers - Tet & Dip. Some of these (GOOGLE) include Garden Debut; Trophy Taker; Happily-Ever-Appster; Jersey Early Bird; All American Selections; etc.

wildbirds, thanks a bunch!

two seedlings who get the same watering, share the same dirt, etc. as the rest of the entire bed (25 seedlings in all) those two in particular are rapidly increasing where as the others are performing at what I expected to be normal (1 or 2 fans per year) So, I am assuming those two have better genetics for increase habit than their siblings and other garden bed mates.

Either that, or the former homeowners buried their cat in that spot. :p

Nate

Thats funny Nate, When ever I go fishing I try to bring home some "plant food" if im lucky enough.

I wonder if a plant that increases fast is more prone to disease because it is using up its energy instead of hording it.

When tetraploids were created, they were supposed to be more robust, vigorous plants because they would have more genetic material responsible for those traits. They certainly as a rule have much more substance in the flowers than the dip counterparts. Anytime a plant is inbred to enhance certain traits, other than vigor, vigor depression will tend to occur. When these inbred plants are crossed, such as two species, the resulting prodigy are often much more vigorous than the parents. The term applied to this is hybrid vigor.
I think moderate increase is okay, but rampant increase means the plant has to be dug and divided too often for my taste; to keep it healthy and blooming heavily.
Just as the fastest growing plants and trees seem to have weak growth, most of the larger, faster growing daylilies I have encountered seem to be more prone to disease.
I have seen quite a few seedlings from the same cross; one cross of 400 seedlings I recall. There will be a vast variety of vigor, plant habit and flower size/substance in the seedlings, even when grown side by side in the same bed. To me, that's what makes hybridizing so much fun.
Ed

There seems to be a great deal of variation. Fate seems to intervene as usual and a very pretty flower will sit there with no new fans for years.I finally obtained a few seedlings from Ed Murray, and three years later they are single fans--though they look like they will at least bloom this year.My favorite has had three fans for three years. Meanwhile a little unknown red has formed five large clumps in thirty years----and I don't even know it's name. It looks to be barely beyond the species level and I might as well use it all over the yard. About 2000 a Spring bloomer (NOID) rebloomed in the Summer, so I crossed it with old August Orange. The resulting seedlings increase so fast they choke their own clumps--a red ( that should not have happened when I crossed two yellows---makes no sense!) has over twenty five fans, so crowded I don't know how I will divide it if I ever do. Water and fertilizer do probably have some effect----sometimes!

The dark red above refuses to form more than three fans---darn it! The next----- has over twenty five--I can't really count them they are so thick.

In my seedling experience dips do make fans more rapidly than tets. I keep my dip and tet seedlings in different "patches" for the most part so the difference is quite obvious. Diploid seedlings can have a clump by the end of the first summer-the year they are planted. I was amazed to see this the first year I grew seedlings. It wasn't something I was expecting. Most of my dips are from spider or UF breeding and have quite small fans. They don't make as huge a clump as a large group of tet fans.
What interests me more are plants that make a scape on every fan. On a garden tour a couple of years ago a fellow visitor and I were discussing the plant "Wild and Wonderful" by Patrick Stamile. It is one of my favourite daylily cultivars. He had gotten rid of the plant because it didn't have a high enough bud count for him. I love the plant because it has a scape on every new fan. I bought it as a single fan and it had a flower scape that year. The next year it had 4 fans and 4 scapes. The next year it had 11 fans and 11 scapes. This is something that I admire greatly in this plants genetics. You are getting more flowers for the space the plant is taking up in your garden. Fan increase is better than no fan increase but there needs to be scapes with those fans.
I also have grown some seedlings from the species H. Hakunensis as one parent. They were the biggest and most aggressive seedlings in all of my 2010 seedling patches-dip or tet. I selected the ones I wanted to keep for this year and discarded the rest but boy were they aggressive. I do believe using some of the species in your breeding program will inject vigour. Using cultivars not many generations from the species probably will do this as well.
It would be very nice to have all of that vigour information available somewhere but since environmental conditions affect things like that there is really no way to standardize it. You sometimes just have to see what does well for you or talk to others in your area to find it out. As far as I am concerned there is really no point in breeding for something that won't grow well where you live. That's why I work for the most part with spiders and UFs . They always open nicely and look great out here in the windy country. Why hit my head against a brick wall trying to grow something that won't open because we don't have enough heat and doesn't like wind? It's too much work for that!
Debbie

Thanks to all.... I am working through all this info and more than I am getting from other breeders on line. So my follow up is what cultivars do all of you think are ideal vigor plants. @ Ed, I see you don't want one that will "go to grass" and need dividing too quickly, so what rate works well for you and what tet cultivars achieve that. @ Debbie, I like the concept of a scape per fan, what tet cultivars are among your favorites for this attribute?

@ Ed, I see you don't want one that will "go to grass" and need dividing too quickly, so what rate works well for you and what tet cultivars achieve that.

I want my plants to establish quickly and each fan double each season.This rate makes a nice clump within a year or two and lasts for some time. I also like plants that have room between fans, so they can be separated easily and won't over-crowd each other.
I recommend you select plants that have been proven in your growing zone. You can look on the AHS site and find cultivars that are popular in your area from their Popularity Poll. You can also chose cultivars that have won the Lenington All-American award. These cultivars are popular across a wide growing area.
A couple of my personal favorites are: LITTLE ORANGE TEX (dip) and RED VOLUNTEER (tet).
Good luck, Ed

I haven't really kept track as much the last few years on scapes vs fans on plants I am not hybridizing with. I am busy trying to keep track of seedling statistics and have been using them in my hybridizing over named cultivars. I have a seedling out of Light of the World x Raspberry Griffen that had 3 large blooming scapes the second summer it was in the garden(so around 18 months old). I found that amazing for here and still have that seedling. I used it a bit last summer and have started the seeds.

I have been using Wild and Wonderful for a few years. It has pale yellow pollen but seems to be pollen fertile. I haven't been able to set pods on it however.

There are plants coming on now so I hear that have 2 scapes per fan or send up instant rebloom scapes and that is even better. I think that is the future of breeding daylilies -to make them bloom all season- and wish some of those plant breeders got more recognition. Everyone seems to want an usual face!

Ed's right. You need to observe your plants or plants that do well in gardens around you. What we suggest might not do well there. That is one of the problems with passing around advice on breeding daylilies. We have such differing growing conditions here in SW Ontario with some areas having a full month longer growing season. We can't even take advice from each other-just have to try things out.

If you have seedlings that increase well hang on to them and use them.

Debbie