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Bob Carr's Color charts question
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Posted by swontgirl_z5a (My Page) on Sat, Nov 14, 09 at 16:06
Hi,
I've been studying Bob Carr's Color charts. I wonder if anyone can tell me what color on the charts would a dark orange daylily like Mauna Loa or Tuscawilla Tigress be? Would they fall into the Melon catagory or the Peach,(Apricot & Copper)?
As well I wonder if anybody knows what happens when you breed white or near white daylilies to coloured ones. He didn't make a chart to deal with white or near white. Maybe you are supposed to decide if it is a yellowish white or a pinkish white and use that catagory.
Any ideas?? |
Follow-Up Postings:
RE: Bob Carr's Color charts question
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| I had the same problem when looking at his charts. I think he was working mostly with pastels and reds so that is what he had data on. I also want to know what happens when you put browns with other colors. Keep in mind that his data was very limited so, while the charts are useful to get an idea, they are not complete and also not statistically controlled for accurate representations. My experience & study so far leads me to believe that near white is a dominant color trait which in some cultivars is hard to get them to give up, other release it a little easier. As an example, I have these seedlings out of "JT Davis" (near white)
2007-030-001
"Reason For Treason" (red) x JTD Notice the near white/light yellow underlay is the dominant color and the red overlay (making an orange overall effect) is variable day to day. 
2007-025-001, and -002 also variable overlay day to day. "Border Sentry" x JTD 
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RE: Bob Carr's Color charts question
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Hi berrytea4me,Interesting seedlings. There were no red ones at all? How do you decide if there are untertones and the flower is just not that color? I can see the yellow underneath but is that really red on top or orange or pink? Would you call that "not" a clear color then? I am still not sure on that either. I think I can tell what is clear but not sure of "not clear".
I thought Brown was covered in the charts with the Buff(Tan & Brown) catagory. It seems dominant to just about everything but melon and yellow.
Anybody else know what dark orange would be - melon or peach? In the encyclopedias of Daylilies the color catagories seem to confuse me a bit as there seems to be some overlap of colors. They have Yellow(yellow to gold), Orange(apricot, melon to Orange), Pink (peach to rose pink) but there seems to be some peaches(that word is used in their descriptions) for example in all 3 catagories. Is there more to deciding the color than just looking at the flower? Are some colors always made up of different color layers? This is confusing but very interesting and I would sure like to learn more about it. Thanks for your help!!
Debbie |
RE: Bob Carr's Color charts question
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| Nope, no red ones at all from these crosses though I don't have a lot of seedlings from any of those first crosses to compare. Those are some of my first seedlings to bloom and I purchased all of my seeds the first year. You don't get long crosses when you buy them. Several of the crosses I planted out this year were long, 50+ seedlings. That will give better statistical ratios. I took "buff" to mean what we call today "cream" or "near white" but that is part of the problem with these charts. Definitions & descriptions of color are subjective at best. Although you can't see that with a photo, when I look at that orange daylily in person, I can see right through the top color to the yellow. That top layer also tends to fade on hot days and show up differently each day. It is also a very fine stipple pattern which doesn't show up on the photos either. It is obvious enough that the color is a thin red pigmentation that is sitting in the top cell layers of the flower. I haven't learned a lot about the different pigments yet but it looks like an orange-red in person which I believe is probably a caratinoid. I can't remember now if that is oil based or water based. Daylilies have pigments of both type and some are more susceptible to fading which can also be affected by which cell layers they are in. This is all still new for me too. I grow 'REASON FOR TREASON' and it is an orange red too. When you see a daylily with a very solid color it is usually that the same or similar family colors are in all layers. That is not always the case. Some colors in the top layer are so solid that even a very different bottom layer can't show through it. "Clear" or "Clean" color means that the color is saturated without brownish/yellow muddy overtones. That doesn't always show up in photos but let me see if some of my photos can depict it. Reds in my garden are notoriously muddy in the first bloom season but clean up with second year blooms. Here is a seedling that will show you both muddy and clear color
This is the second flower open on the plant:
 and here is the 3rd flower open on the same plant:
 It is still not perfectly clear in the second photo but you can see that the yellow/peach overtones have cleared out leaving a much more rosey clean color. It is common for seedlings to improve even over the first season of blooms. |
RE: Bob Carr's Color charts question
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I'm not sure how much this is going to help as I am not an expert by any means on the heredity of colors, but there are a few things that I hope I can help you with.
The first is that the descriptions of registered daylilies are written by the individual who registers it. What I mean is that what is a light peach-orange to one person may be light melon to another. Because of this, going solely by the descriptions can be very confusing. You really need to see the flower in a garden in your own area to know what it ought to look like when it is in your garden and what color(s) it looks like. The only way I can think to overcome this is to visit a willing grower and/or hybridizer in your area and let him/her talk with you about his/her experience with color. The Carr tables are based on probability, but my own experience is that all matters of probability are no more than an educated guess. For example, one of the crosses I made two years ago(Forestlake Ragamuffin X Painting the roses red) had several first-time bloomers this year, and the while the Carr chart says that pink and red should dominate, I got only a few of those, with several melon colored, a couple of yellows, and two or three near-whites.
As you have seen, certain plants seem to have dominant genes concerning certain properties. However, this type of information is not readily available to the casual backyard hybridizer. Again, one of the many commercial hybridizers would enjoy talking with you about his or her experiences with various plants and what they bring to the hybridizer.
I only know enough about hybridizing for color to be aware of how much there is that I don't know. Here are a couple of examples:
These two seedlings are from the same cross and the same pod - Ed Brown X Red Fang. The first one looks remarkably like seedling 2007-025-001 from Berrytea4me's first post. There is no way to know these two were related unless I told you. You could predict the pink one based on the cross, but not the whiter one on the right.
Now here are some more:
Believe it or not, these are all from the cross (and the same pod!) - Song Writer X Forestlake Ragamuffin. There were 11 seeds - 9 germinated and grew - 8 bloomed for the first time this past spring. I got 3 reds, 3 pinks, and 2 that are in the "melon" category. Song Writer does not have an edge, but it is very highly ruffled. FL Rag has a gold toothy edge. Only 1 or 2 have an edge, but most of them have a lot of ruffles. So far none have teeth. What does that tell me? I guess neither of the two parents are strongly dominant regarding the edge nor the color, but Songwriter seems to have dominance where ruffling is concerned. I guess color follows Carr's predictions in this cross.
As for your concerns regarding the use of near whites, that is a subject unto itself. Again, I am not an expert, but many experts use certain near-whites to "clarify" the color of an existing seedling. That is, the near-white should make the color of the other seedling clearer and cleaner. However, not all near-whites are "clarifiers." In fact, I think that there are "clarifiers" that are not near-white. Again, a commercial hybridizer is where you should go to talk about this.
Don't be intimidated about talking with one of the "big" hybridizers. Most of them like nothing more than talking about their passion - daylilies. Also, this is the time of year that these folks have a little more free time. Not too much to do outside once "winterizing" the garden is done - - greenhouse chores can be significant, but not so significant that they can't find time to answer questions from someone who truly is interested.
Sorry I've been so long-winded and hope some of this helps,
Larry |
RE: Bob Carr's Color charts question
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Thanks Guys,
You have both been so helpful.
berrytea4me - thanks for the photos showing clear vs muddy. It is kind of what I had though but it still amazes me how the first blooms of a plant can look so different from later ones. You would think the pigments and genetics would be decided before it blooms and that those couldn't change. It's almost like people who are so blond when they are young and as they mature their hair darkens up yet mine has been the same color my whole life - not blond!
sweatin in Ga - thanks for your photos as well. What a difference between your sibs. I have heard about whites being used as a clarifier. Does this mean they remove the orange yellow pigments? What about browns then? Are they just assumed to always be muddy? I have 1 brown I just love - Velvet Champion - and to me the color is very clear and saturated.
 It is really hard to reproduce the exact color with a camera and I have tried many times. This photo isn't bad. This color stuff is so interesting to me. I used to be a research scientist and for some reason just need to figure out anything to do with science. Don't worry about being long winded with me!! Daylilies are now my intellectual stimulation and unfortunately I can't find enough people to have scientific discussions about them with!! Biology wasn't my field and I wish now I had taken more of it. Every weekend I bother my daughter who is taking a genetics course but she doesn't know enough yet to help me!!
Thanks for offering your advice. I respect it immensely. I think everyone learns something doing this no matter how insignificant they think it is. Keep the advice coming. That is what I think this forum is for!!!
Debbie |
RE: Bob Carr's Color charts question
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Hello again Debbie,
I knew that I had some references that might be helpful regarding daylily genetics, so here they are: The first is a series of articles written by Tom Hart. I have attached his web site. Scroll down the left hand side and you can find articles on genetics as well as specifically on color. If that isn't enough, you can look at www.gracegardens.com/hhgy1.htm
This is a 4 part series updated in 2007 on dayiliy genetics. It is not specific to color although it addresses it. You can click from one article to the next. You can also click on the "Award Article" which is "Simple Genetics for Us Simple Folks" When you are ready, then go to
http://www.brianmahieu.com/daylily/index.shtml
Again on the left, scroll down. He has articles specifically about color theory for daylilies and perhaps better yet (I don't know as I have not read it) an article on hybridizing for black and brown daylilies. Once you have gotten through all of this, would you mind giving me a summary? I was trained as a chemist many years ago and understand your scientific interest, but this stuff just goes right on past me!
Larry |
Here is a link that might be useful: Hart's Daylilies
RE: Bob Carr's Color charts question
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| Larry, you beat me to it! I found that article about a year ago & reread it from time to time...it's a lot to absorb. Very fascinating! To be more specific look under 'Daylily Flower Pigments'. Interesting how pH & temps come into play. |
RE: Bob Carr's Color charts question
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| LOL, Larry, I knew I'd seen those articles but couldn't remember where or all the details they have. I can read them, feel like I understand it sort of, and then walk away and forget everything I just read. Debbie, the thing that makes the colors variable is that color in plants is from a bunch of chemicals reacting. Different chemical reactions occur with temperature, moisture levels, minerals present, etc. as catalysts. Some chemical reactions are more volatile than others, hence greater variability when a color is caused by certain combinations. As the plant matures & settles in it may absorb and process nutrients differently which changes the chemical & mineral balances, hence the age of plant factor in color. Look at this seedling on two different days. Completely different. Unless I told you they are the same plant you may think they are different siblings. This one alternates back & forth between these two colors depending on weather for the day. Will it continue to do that as the plant matures? I don't know but suspect yes. I have some registered plants that do similar. 
Debra |
RE: Bob Carr's Color charts question
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On another forum we were discussing a cross which produced near white kids. I was surprised as the pod parent was INDIAN GIVER and pollen was OUR FRIEND SALLY.
I don't want to post someone elses remarks but if your a member or wish to join DAYLILIES FOR NORTHERN CLIMATES you will find his response. This forum group is on Yahoo and you do have to be a member to view the discussions. Just do a search once your a member for the post regarding "Indian Giver as a parent". Julia |
RE: Bob Carr's Color charts question
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| Hi I have read most of this stuff before too. It kind of overwhelms you. I agree that you can read it and think you know what they are talking about but none of it stays in there!!I was a chemist as well and really never liked all that memory stuff. Even memorizing all those amino acids in Biochem seemed like waste at the time.I think my problem is more the botany than the genetics. I just don't know enough about plants period to figure out how the color stuff works. Larry - Here's my summaryThe Mahieu stuff about brown is pretty limited. I can only find 2 brown daylilies on his site that he has registered - Hooded cobra and Death adder. It sounds like browns are very unstable and blacks are better to work with. The browns are combinations of fulvous orange pigments with blues and purples. They are very sensitive to the temperature. He does mention one good point and that is it is important to get a good waxy coating or something like that on dayliles that are subject to water spotting. The water soluble pigments that make red and purple are in the upper layer of the flower and are easily spotted if there isn't something else protecting them. Maybe this would help with color fading in the sun as well. Tom Rood discusses many good daylilies to breed with but doesn't really go into detail about why. He does mention more about some traits being dominat etc than other articles I have found. His hybridizng basics ie the mechanics- are very informative.Harts articles are very indepth. It is very humbling to be having difficulty understading his material for "non scientists". The article on pigments doesn't really offer much basic color information mostly how the pigments work. Grenn melon and yellow pigments are produced by the plastics - a thing in the cell. These plastids are not passed on by the pollen parent which is very interesting and I wil have to think for a while what that means for color breeding. These plastids are also not found in the upper layer of cells - the epidermis and so those pigments make up the under color of a flower. Does this mean a yellow flower has all those pigments in lower layers and there are no pigments in upper layers? Blue and red pigments are water soluble and exist in the cell sap( the liquid that fills the cell and that all the parts float around in). It is concentrated in the upper cell layers of the flower. A cross section of a petal will show these layers. The color that results from these pigments can be affected be anything that changes the pH of the cell sap. I can think of the soil - any other factors you can think of? That is why they look different in different gardens. As we all know these are the colors red and purple that fade in the sun the worst and that water spot. It makes sense if they are just below the surface. Somehow environmental factors affect the behavior of the different enzymes that control the formation of the various pigments. I am still not sure how that works. I have read other places about how the sun can affect ruffling by changing the cells in the lower layer of the flower segment more than the upper layer and thus ruffling or puckering happens. I guess the genetics for that to happen are already in the plant and the different climatic conditions just enhance the phenotypic result. These environtmental factors are just one of the things I have trouble understanding as it doesn't seem to happen in people that I can think of.One thing I did get out of Hart's genetics articles was the fact that no one is growing long enough crosses to ever get the recessive mutation that it is going to take to get a blue daylily. It makes sense to me. It is really going to be a freaky thing if it ever happens. Somehow the gene(s) that cause blue to appear in daylily eyes needs to be mutated so blue can appear in the rest of the petal. I don't really get how eyes happen anyways and are edges just a mutation along the line some where? It is very complicated. I have read that if enough people are working on it it will happen but maybe there will never be enough offspring of one cross to see the mutation. That part I understand. Hope some of this makes sense to you. I think I really need to get a good botany book and learn about plant cells. Then maybe I will understand how diamond dusting and velvety finishes can happen when the surface cells change shape. I really tried to take Botany first year but had a conflict and ended up with Microbiology. What a waste that was on me. Plants are really cool!!Resting my brain now!!Debbie |
RE: Bob Carr's Color charts question
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| "These environtmental factors are just one of the things I have trouble understanding as it doesn't seem to happen in people that I can think of." Debbie, yes these do happen in people. My son is autistic. The leading theory on the cause of autism, and the one that makes the most sense, is that it is a genetic pre-disposition that is triggered by an environmental factors. It definitely runs in my family though my son is first to get dx. Allergies are another example of this. You've got more than me if you have chemistry background. I just have enough to understand the basics for electronics, physics, and mechanics. On the surface finish, I expect you'd have to understand the crystal formation of the various chemicals/minerals involved. Just a hunch but I'm betting that it is due to a change in composition of the surface cells so that they form a different crystaline structure. I agree all the rest is so facinating. Wish I had the time to really study it in depth. |
RE: Bob Carr's Color charts question
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Berrytea4me,
Interesting theory on the Autism. My husband has a nephew who is Autistic as well and I have never heard that theory. Do you think they have ever tried moving people with autism to different places or environments? My mother has Parkinsons and I think they wonder about environmental factors for that. So many people who worked in schools for example seem to get it. But there are lots of diseases that are caused by things in our environment - like cancer for instance - but are the genetics different in those people who get cancer? It's interesting to think about. I guess I was thinking more along the lines of do we grow bigger if the temperature is different or turn a different color if it is more humid? Nutrition does affect these things but that's not necessarily genetic in nature.
Certainly interesting. Maybe I could look different or younger if I lived somewhere else!!
From what I've read I think that the velvet finish on some daylilies is caused by the surface cells having a little bump on their surface that reflects the light differently. They think Diamond dusting is caused by crystals of some kind inside the surface cells but haven't found any crystals. It is neat that these plant cells can change shape to cause different effects in the flower segments. That is something I would like to learn more about. Julia,
I am a member of that forum but I don't get the emails sent to me and I don't go there to check it very often. I couldn't find the post you were talking about - just some stuff on Indian giver and Pink Stripes. Couldn't find Our Friend Sally either when I searched. |
RE: Bob Carr's Color charts question
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Debbie,
Remember that environment includes what we eat, drink, are exposed to through play, where we live, or what we do, and for at least a portion of our lives, what our mother ate and was exposed to. In my case I was mercury poisoned as a toddler. I drank 1/2 a baby food jar of liquid mercury. Mercury doesn't exit the body all at once. So did I expose my children to high levels mercury invitro? Could that have been the trigger? My son is highly sensitive to nitrates which are found in our soil & water due to high levels of fertilizers used in past generations of farms in this area. Could that exposure be the trigger? Could it be exposure to a mold, or a chemical in the carpeting that degasses over time" How about a common chemical we use in laundry detergent or shampoo? How many different types of triggers could there be? Every child with autism has different symptoms. Do the symptoms corrolate with a certain trigger? Sorting through environmental triggers is just about impossible to pinpoint in people. All we really know is that the occurance is at epidemic levels. The last study I read was 1/100 children now are diagnosed with some form of autism spectrum disorder. I heard it may have been revised upward again from there but I don't know that for sure. This high level and increase would indicate that it is something very common and something that has changed in the past 10-15 years. Well, there have been a lot of changes in the past 10-15 years. Much simpler in flowers. |
RE: Bob Carr's Color charts question
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| Try doing a search for message #8120. Use the message # search option. Odd that the thread discussion isn't showing up. If viewing the forum by "GROUPING MESSAGES" versus the individual posts, the thread was posted November 10 titled Indian Giver as a parent. Hope this helps.
Julia |
RE: Bob Carr's Color charts question
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| Thanks Julia, I found it. I would love to know more stuff exactly like that. Ironically Chuck Chapman lives about 45 minutes from me. He is an iris breeder and obviously knows alot about colors. They must work something like daylilies. He is a member of the Ontario Daylily Society which I just joined so maybe I will run into him some time. |
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