Shop Products
Houzz Logo Print
lakedallasmary

Ineed your help with vegetable garden design

lakedallasmary
17 years ago

I am a new gardener. I started with 4 beds 8 X3 feet each arranged in a square with 2 foot paths. It is on the south east side of the house which gets shade after 3 pm, which is good since it was 100 most of the summer. The hottest summer in quite some time. Not good for a new gardener. I liked the way it looked and watering and moving around was easy. But the 3 sisters garden I tried did not work out well. I saw a site that had the corn mounds 5 feet apart. I had 3 corn mounds 3 feet apart, and 3 squash mounds, 3 feet apart in each bed due to lack of space. I got very few corn due to lack of pollination. I thought this was due to planting too close but, I read later, it was the heat and drought.

Anyway, to try something different, I expanded my garden to about 17 X 12 feet with no paths. I was going to plant the beans in mounds between the corn mounds, not around the corn stalks, since I had trouble getting them to sprout in the shade of the corn. So, the beans would be 5 feet apart and 2 1/2 feet from the corn. A few bean mounds would be replaced by squash mounds. I would have had 3 corn mounds by 4 corn mounds.

This year, most green beans died and the limas never sprouted. The black eyed peas did grow put did not start to make beans till a few weeks ago. Too hot and dry! I am on round 3 of squash. Round 1 and 2 were eaten up by the dreaded squash borers. Not much luck this summer for a new gardener!

After I moved the bricks which surrounded my beds to the larger garden size, I had no paths, so I I had to walk around in the garden. Watering became confusing. I watered about everyday, because even when I watered deep, the plants wilted if I watered every other day, and the moisture meter read dry each day. Course there was not much to water in the garden, but southern peas, sickly looking ones at that.

So, with the larger garden and the watering difficulties, I thought about making watering ditches. I have started to make ditches every 3 feet the whole width of the garden from the house side to the yard side. I will be able to fill the ditches from the 2 foot wide walk way between the house the garden, without having to walk all over the garden. It took me a a long time to commit to this plan as I knew there had to be something I was missing. I also thought about making watering holes every so often instead, but I would have to walk in the garden to get to them. The other thing I thought of was to place large rocks around the garden to help retain moisture.

The problem is: with watering ditches, planting will be in rows, which I think looks very boring, and I think inter planting may be better for the plants.

I almost posted this in the permaculture forum since I think planting in the landscape has more promise of success, but the soil is so dry around the trees, with little fertility, I will have to have a dedicated garden bed until I get more trees and build up more soil fertility there. I also think certain veggies are not well suite to landscape planting, like corn and beans. They might not get enough sun. I know tomatoes would do better under a tree, since I had a tomato plant volunteer by a large bush in the front flower bed. It made tomatoes all summer unlike the ones I planted in the garden that made 7 tomatoes before the heat made them quit producing. But I knew if I posted over there, they would say, plant in the landscape. I have read most of gaias garden (a permaculture book) and find it all rather confusing.

I got the idea for ditches looking at my brown yard this summer. We only mowed three times and the drought turned it all brown till a few weeks ago. The grass was green for about 1 foot by the sidewalk and patio. The concrete was holding water, so I thought a watering ditch every 2-3 feet would provide water for about 1 foot on each side. But I still have my concerns that I am messing up. Will this work, or I am just using up valuable garden space on holes? The other issue is where do I walk? I figured I could fill the ditches with porous rocks which would hold water, and possibly put a light layer of mulch over that. I would plant up to about 6 inches to each side of the ditches so that would give me 1 foot to walk in. Seems like a waste of space.

I have since given up on the 3 sisters garden idea, since to get corn to mature in weather less than 90 degrees, I would have to plant in aug or sept. I want to still try cow peas in the summer, and no corn to plant between so why bother. I also figured squash would be better suited to fall.

I will have 6 3 foot rows. I will plant sun flowers on the west row to block some of that hot sun. I will also plant sunflowers on the south side too. I hope all of this is not dumb. I can't possibly get much less produce than I did this year. So basically, I will have 4 rows of cow peas and peanuts, and reserve 1 row for corn in the fall. I will reserve 3 feet on the house side of every other row of beans for the squash so they will get more shade that way.

Another problem I am having now is, I cannot complete these ditches until the current cow peas are done. They are in the way of the planned ditches. I have partially dug the ditches. It looks like I could have an erosion problem if I don't fill them with something.

I also had a tomato bed. I expanded that, and I have put up poles for pole beans. Any tomatoes I will plant will be in the shade of a tree on the north side of the house. As much as I hate rows, there are rows everywhere. I planted wax beans around these poles. There will be ditches in that bed too. So five rows of three poles each, with cool veggies near the house. of both beds. Actually, they are connected now. Probably flowers on the sunny part of the rows as well. This bed is 2 feet shallower.

If I put rocks in the ditches, what sort should I use. I was thinking lava rocks, not the lava sand but the landscaping rocks.

Please help me figure out what to do. It seems I keep changing my garden, and am so confused if I am on the right track.

I could go on, but enough to read for now.

I know a picture would help, but I don't have one.

Comments (7)

  • xericgardening
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I just moved to Houston from Santa Fe, where it's equally dry most of the time (except recentely). Have you used mulch? I found that mulch, about three to four inches deep really makes a difference, in helping retain moisture in the soil, keeping down weeds, and keeping the soil at a more constant temperature (cooler, particularly in during the day).

    Here is a link that might be useful: Desert Gardens

  • lakedallasmary
    Original Author
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    yep I am a mulcher. I use as much as I can find which usually covers the ground 3 or more inches. The only place things do well is close to the house. They get most shade there in the after noon. Things grow better in the front of the house but that is the front. I would rather not have squash all over the front yard. But I am consisdering it. thanks for the link I will look into it.

    Mary

  • xericgardening
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Another alternative to your problem might be "olla" (prounounced oh-yah) gardening. This method was brought to the new world by the Spanish, but is thought to have developed in the deserts and arid regions of northern Africa and brought to Spain by the Moors.
    Unglazed terra cotta pots are porous. Water seeps slowly from them through the tiny pores. In New Mexico and elsewhere, these terra cotta pots are buried, with the top at or just below ground level (this keeps hot sun and wind from wicking the water from around the rim of the pot). If there is a hole in the bottom, it is plugged (marine caulking works well). Edible plants (and ornamentals) are planted in circles around the pots. The pots are then filled with water and covered (old plates, slate, a flat rock, a piece of wood...anything to keep the water from evaporating.)
    The water slowly seeps through the terra cotta into the soil (and the plant roots next to the pots). Very little water is wasted through evaporation. Check the pots every day to check water levels. When a pot gets half-empty, refill it.
    Ollas can be small (eight to 10 inch pots) or very large (a foot or two across). Plant roots benefit from this because all the water is going right where it's needed, and there is little or no evaporation. Also, with the pots, it is easy to maneuver around the garden. You can experiment with several designs (I think concentric circles would be interesting).
    The Santa Fe, New Mexico Master Gardeners Association has an Olla Experimental Garden. Here's their website address: http://sfmga.org. When you get to their homepage, click on "Projects", then scroll down to the bottom of the projects. The Olla Garden page link is the last one.

    Also, you might want to get something on "xeric" gardening. Your county agent, or local master gardeners' association may be able to point you in the right direction.
    You might also want to obtain a copy of the book, "Edible Landscapes," by Rosalind Creasy. She has a very interesting perspective on gardening.
    I assume you had your soil tested. If not, you can have this done at your local county agent's office.
    Let me know how things develop.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Desert Gardens

  • lakedallasmary
    Original Author
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have decided what to do

    I am going back to garden beds not one huge garden with no paths. I only did that to accommodate my next year's attempt of a 3 sisters garden, but I am not going to try that next year after all. this year was a flop. and...Texas is a bit hot for corn and I read about all the problems with a 3 sisters garden. First the beans produce less. You need a really big place since if things are too close together, the beans will not get enough light. Sweet corn is not strong enough to support pole beans. I think from what I read, dent corn was used by the Indians. I could try that, but not sure family would like it since it is not as sweet as modern sweet corn. It gets very tall too, which would shade the beans even more.

    I have lots of food allergies and about all I can eat is legumes in the green stage (not dried), beets, winter squash and broccoli . So I believe I should focus my efforts there. I am not trying broccoli in Texas though. Fresh broccoli is easy to purchase organic. Limas, and cow peas can't be purchased green in any store around here. Green beans and peas can be purchased frozen at the health food store, but never fresh. Beets and winter squash are hit and miss. So there is a big benefit for me growing these. I am planting celeriac and rutabaga too. I purchased those at a whole foods once and they did not make me sick. Those two are not available at my local health food store. I do not think I will have any luck with celeriac, but I will give it a go. I am also planting herbs and greens for my family this fall. Not such a big deal if they don't work out though, since they do not eat organic.

    Anyway, I will build beds (again) about 12 X 3. 2 beds by the house and 2 further out. I am making them longer this time since everything does better closer to the house where it is cooler and gets more afternoon shade. If I made them shorter with paths between it would waste the valuable, close to the house space.

    The reason I am breaking up the beds with 1 path between, is 1 long bed is annoying to have to carry the hose around and I need to leave a space for the down spout. That area now is nothing but mud with all the rain we have been getting. I am not going out as far, as I have the huge garden now. Everything dies past 8 feet out, too hot!

    I guess I would have never known all that stuff unless I tried it first. If I don't have enough room for the beans, I will try something I saw in web land. They attached strings to the house gutter and attached to the ground. The beans climbed those. I also saw some neat beans climbing up privacy fences with strings. Sounds like a plan.

    As far as the drought problem. I will dig 1 foot round holes every 2 feet in the center of the beds. I will fill with rocks and put mulch over that. I will only water the holes when the soil shows to be dry. I surely hope that works. I did not think the ditch idea would work as well because:

    1. the sides would eventually fall down
    2. if I filled the ditch with water, even plants that did not need water would get it
    3. seemed to me, the ditches wasted too much space
    4. no place to walk
    5. boring rows resulted
    6. the mud problem near the down spout
    7.water would evaporate from ditches unless I covered with mulch or something and would have to be re-dug when everything decomposed. If I filled with rocks, that would be a lot of rocks.
    8. ditches wasted valuable close to the house space
    9. too much water in the spring and fall, creating mud

    Just did not seem to be feasible to me. I filled in the ditches. I can't make beds until the current plants are done producing. I guess I will put things pretty much back the way they were in stages.

    Your post on ollas gave me courage to try out my rock/hole idea. Thanks for posting it. It is way cool!

    I hate to fail. I need a success every once in a while to keep up this gardening thing. I got so little produce so far. Here are the only things I have gotten so far:

    last fall -2005
    about 5 winter squash - very sweet and yummy
    no sugar pumpkins
    1 jackolantern in December - too late to use

    this spring - 2006
    about 3-4 weeks of English peas every other day. Not sweet
    5 small beets - not sweet
    2 tiny rutabagas - not great taste
    no parsley - no sprout
    no scallions - no sprout
    no onions - no sprout
    no radish - died in heat as seedlings
    no spinach - no sprout
    lots of over ripe cover crop radishes

    not doing these thing in spring ever again.

    This summer - 2006
    5 ears of poorly formed corn with ear worms

    about 6 tomatoes (from 2 plants)

    no green beans - plants died in heat, except one plant, it is blooming now (Sept 2006)

    no limas - very few sprouted, rest died in heat

    1 unripe charentais melon - picked cause it split, rest of plants died tasted OK, but rather crunchy , pour sprouting

    no cucumbers - very few sprouted, rest died

    a couple of handfuls of cow peas, that I found out I was picking unripe. The last handful I picked, tasted great since I waited till the pods were yellow. I boiled in homemade beef broth with a bit of rendered beef fat. I would love to get at least 1 cup to make a decent meal for one.


    I will say things are going a bit better this fall.

    Hear is what has sprouted so far
    wax beans
    limas
    peas
    7 beets
    squash - some have borers others may but not looking sick yet
    cowpeas - making pods!
    2 rutabagas
    2 radishes
    0 cabbage - need to give a few more days

    I am disappointed with the beets, rutabaga and radish.

    I planted more beets and rutabaga.

    Sorry the post is so long. I am home bound so gardening fills my days, ether doing it or thinking about it. I wish it was working out better. Texas is very inhospitable. I will give the things that I have had little to no success with, a few more tries then giving up on them. My grandma had a nice large garden in Vermont. She did not have everything keel over like this. Just had frost to worry about. Not willing to move to the arctic for a bit of gardening success though.

    Thanks for listening.

    Mary

  • xericgardening
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Instead of regular rocks, try lava rocks in your water holes. They are highly absorbant, and hold lots of water for long periods of time, releasing it into the nearby soil.
    With mulch on top, you should have some real reservoirs in your garden.

  • remuda1
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Mary,

    I know I am posting to an old thread, but if you haven't already, visit the vegetable forum. There are a lot of us Texans there that can help you with your veggie garden. One thing that has amazed me is how very well layers of newspaper under a good mulch...any mulch....retains water. My garden is in full sun and I had great production this summer, even with the drought. I have all raised beds, so the drainage is great. The newspaper is also great for weed suppression. I don't know how you do it without mulch.

    Kristi

  • lakedallasmary
    Original Author
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I mulch. I mulch with as much mulch as I can find.

    I think my problem is since I do no till, the soil is not thick enough yet. It takes a bit longer, but I still have faith it can be done.

    I try to avoid no organic things in my organic garden. Newspaper seem innocuous, but paper making is far from a clean process. They harp on soy ink but, I think that is to throw us all off. I am so dang allergic to newspaper. I am allergic to soy m maybe that is why.

    good idea though.
    I have stopped planning and replanning my garden. I have come up with what I think to be a workable plan, and if next year it does not work, I will adjust to fix problems that come up.

    Here is my latest version

    latest garden plan

    I may dispense with watering ditches as I hate to disturb soil life.

    Mary