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evelyninalaska

blackberries

evelyninalaska
17 years ago

Hi there, wondering if anyone has tried any blackberry varieties in zone 3-4? Our raspberries do well and we are hankering for more variety.

Comments (110)

  • wxjunkie (3a)
    10 years ago

    Well, as expected little survived the winter without protection. However, enough of a Marionberry cane survived to flower. Since it just flowered, it is unlikely that the berry will ripen before a frost. I found a full cane of Wild Treasure that had survived the winter, but there was physical (as opposed to temperature) damage near the crown and the cane ended up dying . . . too bad! Although most crown/root systems survived, the tops of all others died back to the ground (about 40 plants, 15 varieties). I've added another dozen or so varieties and have a larger planting of Wild Treasure to experiment with. I'm going to try laying Agribon 50 and plastic over the canes to protect them until the snow falls.
    I have a concern with the standard method of pruning to encourage greater fruit production. If I tip the canes to encourage laterals (this would have to be done on Wild Treasure), will I sacrifice the earliest berries? In my experience, on raspberries the fruit usually ripens from the top of the cane to the bottom. Some later varieties (like floricane production on Fall Gold) ripen only the first 2/3 of the crop here because the season is too short and cool. I'm concerned that by tipping, I will be forcing blooming and ripening to occur later on my blackberries. Does anyone have experience with that?

  • don555
    10 years ago

    wxjunkie -- in my experience in the same zone as you, you can reject all blackberry pruning rules develeloped in warmer climates. Nature will do all the tip pruning you contemplate, and then a whole lot more.

    I can get new canes to grow 10 feet (3 m) long in a season, but even laying the canes down, covering with a thick layer or straw or leaves, burlap over that, then a steady snow-cover on top of that, I normally get only 3 feet (1 m) of that growth to survive. If winter is pruning out 7 feet from a 10 foot cane, you should just go with what survives. That means prune nothing except dead wood (and there will be lots of that).

    On the positive side, 3 feet of surviving canes, plus all the new growth that sprouts from that, will still give you a super crop of blackberries.

  • amoret
    10 years ago

    I've been trying Prime Jan in eastern ND and it looks like it may work. Had a couple of berries last year, but didn't get to try them due to health problems. They made it through a very bad winter with almost no snow cover, followed by a very late cold and wet spring, but then got accidentally mowed down. The plants are leafed out and healthy looking so I have fond hopes for next year.

  • wxjunkie (3a)
    10 years ago

    Thanks for the info Don555. I'll cover them all for the winter and hope for the best. Unfortunately for me, it appears Triple Crown and Chester don't care for our cool summer weather-even this one, which was on the warm side. So the hardier ones probably will never produce 10 ft (3m) canes. Less hardy, trailing varieties will have canes that long. Wild Treasure is near 7 ft (2m) and an unknown variety is at 8 ft (2.5m). But then I have a 3 yr old Cumberland black raspberry that produced a cane over 6 ft (2m) tall this year, so maybe I shouldn't give up yet.
    Summer ended last week and it will start snowing in another 4 weeks. I hope I can get a few Marionberries to ripen before then. The first one has started to turn red and I'm excited!
    As for primocane fruiting berries, they don't start flowering on primocanes until now. The Prime Ark 45 I have has not even produced buds yet. Furthermore, I doubt the canes will overwinter as these are erect varieties. Plus, there are other erect varieties that are earlier and produce better fruit that I am more inclined to protect. Amoret, it would have been interesting to see how much winter damage your Prime Jan canes suffered (if they hadn't been mowed down) given your climate. Unfortunately, as I understand it, the axillary buds can be damaged by warmer temperatures that don't necessarily kill the axillary bud during the winter. I see this on my black raspberries when the laterals grow out, but few if any flower buds form.

  • amoret
    10 years ago

    My prime Jan flowered in plenty of time last year. The big advantage of the primocanes is that it is fine if they die back. The mowing was only an issue because it happened mid summer so Iost a lot of growth.

  • vic2b3
    10 years ago

    Hi all, I'm in Manitoba and put in 2 "Chester" plants on 27th. May this year. T&T seeds of Winnipeg have them as suitable for Zone 3! From what I read I could be onto a loser.
    However the canes have done well tied to wires and all I now have to do is get them through our nippy winter, much like the Saskatchewan one of minus 40's.
    We actually picked enough berries, a dozen or so to add to Plums and Strawberries to make a couple of pound of mixed fruit jam this weekend past, and very tasty it is.
    Will upload a photo of the vines if anyone interested,

  • don555
    10 years ago

    Vic2b, In another month or so, lay down the new canes as close to the ground as you can and protect them with straw or leaves for the winter. The centre parts should survive and give you a good crop next year. I planted Chester 5 years ago in Edmonton and they are still with me. Picked about 250 berries so far this year, more to come as long as the frost holds off...

  • vic2b3
    10 years ago

    Thanks don, will give it a whirl if I can get the canes to lay without breaking. Been here for 10 years now from UK and miss the free wild fruit, especially the blackberries and damsons. And no we only moved from 2 miles from Heathrow, so hardly countryside, but plenty of waste ground where the old gravel pits were.
    Have managed to root some tip layers so will lift and replant them in a more sheltered spot against the house.

  • don555
    10 years ago

    Yes, laying canes down can subject them to breakage. The best option is to encourage them earlier in the summer to grow as close to the ground as possible -- ie, only tie the producing canes (last year's canes) to the trellis, and encourage the current year's canes to grow along the ground so they can be covered for the winter, then tied up to the trellis next year when they produce fruit.

    It's tough to remember to do that though, given how there is so much going on in the summer. And if you leave it too long the canes lose flexibility and are prone to breakage. I kind of half-remembered this year.... one year I will do it 100% right and use bricks or whatever to force the young canes to grow along the ground. Or so I keep telling myself.

    Now picked over 300 blackberries from 2 plants. Still shy of last year's 500+, and 2011's 450 or so, but a decent harvest, and still more to come as frost hasn't been an issue yet.

  • Ron Lewis
    10 years ago

    Hi,
    I don't have any encouraging news, but I thought it would be right to tell you what I've experienced in 'northern' Ontario, Canada, zone 3. Thirty-five years ago I planted what were purported to be the hardiest available blackberries (I no longer know the variety, sorry). They would grow 8-foot arching canes each year and then die back to the ground over winter. Because fruit would have been produced on the previous year's growth, they never produced any fruit...in 18 years! One fall I even pinned the canes to the ground and covered them thickly with leaves for winter protection, but to no avail.
    Fast forward to 2010 (approximately) and somebody gives me a 'Chester' blackberry plant (mentioned in this Forum and elsewhere as a possibly hardy variety) and I dutifully plant it without any expectations of success. Unfortunately, although I gave it the moistest, most sheltered location I had, no fruit has been forthcoming so far.
    In between times I tried transplanting some (probably) wild blackberry plants into my garden, where the plants did thrive during the growing season but died back over winter and produced...you guessed it, no fruit; ever. When I gave up on them after a few years it was major labour to dig them out. The mother plants in the wild stand have produced a few fruit twice in fifteen years. However, there are many truly wild but productive plants in the woods around here so it would seem that the optimal conditions for them found in nature are hard mimic in a cultivated garden.
    In this forum, someone mentioned Wyoming raspberries. Ones I have grown produce purple fruit, but sellers call them 'black'. They are not blackberries. But I think they have superb grape-raspberry flavour, and are extremely hardy and quite productive. They have a purple raspberry-like fruit (they are after all raspberries), on canes that grow with a blackberry habit, that is, they form a clump and do not sucker from the roots. They can be propagated by tip-layering.

  • Konrad___far_north
    10 years ago

    I'm about in the same situation, even when you see some berries, the season is too short and most will not mature, leaving behind a massive growth of dead canes to clean up next spring. The ground and relatively large area the canes spread is a waste of space for the small amount of rewards. I found out that black raspberries are great substitutes and very productive.

  • don555
    10 years ago

    Well, I just want to encourage people to give blackberries a try since I've had pretty good luck with them so far in Edmonton (zone 3a). They definitely require effort, but the rewards are worth it -- any blackberry you find in the store here has been shipped from far away and tastes bland-to-okay, but will never, ever, compare to a ripe blackberrry from your own garden for taste.

    I grow Chester Thornless, and have had them for 5 years now. Year 1 was growing canes that would fruit the next year. Year 2 was a one-berry harvest, bah. Year 3 was about 450 berries, year 4 was over 500 berries, year 5 (2013) was about 450 berries. That's from 2 plants.

    The growth of new canes over summer reaches about 12' each year, but I only have any hope of saving the central 3' or so over winter. So focus on covering the centre of the plant with leaves, straw, burlap, etc., and forget about the other 9' of cane since it's going to die anyway.

    My plants have survived for 5 years now. If this winter ended up killing them, I'm not sure if I'd replant, or just count my losses and be thankful for past successes... oh, who am I fooling?... I'd replant!

  • FrozeBudd_z3/4
    10 years ago

    Stratifying in the fridge are some wild collected blackberry seeds from Wisconsin. The growing season there is of about the same length, though hotter and not so bitterly cold as we endure. IâÂÂm gonna give these a try in a very sheltered location where I wonâÂÂt so likely be attacked by the vicious thorns. A challenge is to get them to germinate in the first place, as the rate drops off drastically if the seeds have sat for any length of time or have been dried.

  • rcj123
    10 years ago

    I have triple crown blackberries planted two feet apart on a raised bed, they put on a lot of berries the second year, but yhey are climping all over the trellis, they are to thick I need to thin them out put I don't know when is the best time to move them to a new patch I have it ready to plant but don't know when to move them, can someone tell me what time of year is best to move them. thank you for reading my question. rcj123

  • FrozeBudd_z3/4
    10 years ago

    Hello rcj123 ... it is best to dig and move your blackberries in early spring as soon the ground is dry enough to work, you will of course need to cut the vines back.

    Terrance

  • orchidsinduluth
    10 years ago

    I hope this helps clear up the question of blackberry hardiness. The cultivated blackberries are not hardy for most people beyond zone 5, without significant protection. However, our native blackberry (Rubus allagheniensis in WI/MN) is completely hardy in zone 3. We all know that our global weather has been trending warmer for many years and as a result, we are not growing in "normal" zone temps. Our native plants evolved to tolerate the old "normal" temps. A few years ago a small community in north west WI (Wascott), reached -50F, and everything native to the area magically survived. Normally, frost pockets in the area reach -40F.

    The blackberries in this area maybe growing in what is considered zone 4a now, but the plants are far more hardy than that. Also, they thrive in soils that are not moist, as this area is mostly jack pine sand barrens.

  • don555
    10 years ago

    Just curious if anyone has tried, or knows someone who has tried, Veseys "Balsors Hardy Blackberry"? Veseys claims it is hardy to zone 4a-4b, so would still need protection in my Zone 3a, but maybe not the huge protection I give to my Chester Thornless (which are zone 6 I think), and maybe being native to Nova Scotia it might ripen earlier than Chester? I'm thrilled with Chester, and they have produced amazingly well for the past 3 years, but I always worry that tough winter or a cold summer is going to be their undoing.

  • Konrad___far_north
    10 years ago

    Actually, I grow these two side by side,..only in it's second season, both froze down pretty well all the way, so far I don't see much encouragement in both, grown in colder condition,..out in the country. I got two more for testing, a Montreal seedling and a Russian.

  • don555
    10 years ago

    Interesting. Thanks for the quick reply.

  • wxjunkie (3a)
    10 years ago

    Orchidsinduluth, good to hear about Rubus Allegheniensis. I am trying to sprout seeds of these and see how they do. I had limited success with Marionberries this year. One very short cane survived, flowered, fruited, but didn't ripen completely before the first frost. Nothing else had canes that survived, but it was only the first winter for most of them. This year I got significantly more growth out of Chester and Triple Crown. I pinned them to the ground, hoping to force them to trail. It worked better than I thought it would. Significant snow fell before subzero temps hit this fall, so next summer may be a good test to see what might ripen in our 500-600 GDD10C climate. I still have high hopes for Wild Treasure, as it hardens off early in the fall and is supposed to ripen pretty early. However, this spring physical damage killed the only surviving cane it produced last year. Don555, great to hear you are getting so many blackberries from Chester!

  • vic2b3
    10 years ago

    Hi all, still nippy here just had a week of blizzards and minus 30-59. gardeners itch starting! Here's a couple of photos of "Chester' planted last May together with a Xmas day photo with the snow cover. As previously mentioned in the thread the berries were better for being left a few days after going black. Hoping something will have survived for this year. Caught the dog picking the berries last autumn and also the raspberries.
    Will put a couple of tip layers into the old pool house this spring where there is some protection from the elements.

  • vic2b3
    10 years ago

    second photo

  • vic2b3
    10 years ago

    snow covered on Xmas day.

  • vic2b3
    9 years ago

    Uncovered the blackberries today, some green stems, so hopefully at least part of the canes have survived. ground still waterlogged and an inch of rain forecast for today and more over the next few days. Ground very sticky!

  • vic2b3
    9 years ago

    second photo

  • vic2b3
    9 years ago

    last photo

  • Konrad___far_north
    9 years ago

    You should be rewarded with some berries with all that work!

    I have a Chester and Balsor's Black growing side by side without added protection, the Balsor seems heaving some live canes but on Chester all dead!

    Even tho, ripening them out is a HUGE problem in our short season.

  • don555
    9 years ago

    Vic, I uncovered my Chesters just a few days before you. Kept under leaves and burlap since early November. They always come up with green leaves and stems, then the leaves and a bunch of the stem dies back over the next month or so. Not sure why that is. Anyway, here's one of the plants, uncovered April 21, photo taken today. Most of the growth was on the left hand side of the plant last year, there is one cane on the right side (not shown). The fence was re-done last fall so my trellis had to be removed... I'd better build another one and get these cannes up off the ground. This plant is 5 years old and fruited every year except the first year of course. The other plant (not shown) is 6 years old and apart from its first year has fruited every year but one, when it killed to the ground over winter and spent the summer regrowing.

  • mhayes8655 zone4mn
    9 years ago

    Grew BBs last year for the first time, (just N of Minneapolis) had the worst winter here since 1978, my back yard dropped below -30 F. I did cover them with some oak leaves and we had a lot of snow cover (deepest I've ever seen), however most of the canes seem to be dead. How do these sucker/spread compared to raspberries? I notice from your picture Don that they seem to be confined to a rather small clump. Anyway, I hope something comes up from the roots so I can get some berries by late Aug. The 3 varieties were Prime Ark 45, Prime Jim, and Prime Jan, 6 pack of ea. from stark bros. They're rated for zone 4, but we did not have a zone 4 winter

  • don555
    9 years ago

    mrhayes, your plants will probably sprout from the roots even if the tops are dead, but unfortunately blackberries are floricanes that fruit on canes that were produced the previous year. Whatever canes sprout from the roots in 2014 won't bear fruit until 2015. If you didn't manage to keep any canes alive over this past winter, you won't get any berries this summer.

    Try them for a few years. If you can't overwinter canes then you need to try more serious winter protection, or skip blackberries. I've seen some websites claim they have blackberries hardy to zone 4, even to zone 3, but I think most blackberries are really only reliably hardy to zone 6, with some wilds reliable to zone 5. I grow them in zone 3, so you certainly can in zone 4, but it might require a lot of winter protection of the parts you want to keep alive over winter.

  • mhayes8655 zone4mn
    9 years ago

    Thanks for the advice Don. I've got my BBs on a hill where their exposed to prevailing north and west winds, while my very hardy and vigorous raspberries are in a low protected area. I may have to switch the two.

  • mhayes8655 zone4mn
    9 years ago

    Just checked the plant info on the Prime Jim, Jan, and Ark 45, at Stark Bros web site and they all say they bear on first and second year canes so hopefully the year won't be a total loss.

  • don555
    9 years ago

    I'm not familiar with the varieties you mention (I'm growing "Chester"), but if they are really primocanes (produce fruit the same year as the new Spring canes), then I'd be amazed if they would produce in zone 4, since primocane raspberries don't have a long enough summer to produce fruit on new canes from the current year in such a cool zone, and blackberries require a much longer season than raspberries. (Primocane raspberries definitely a FAIL in my zone, but floricane rasps start producing in late July).

    That said... who knows?... and if you can get fruit this year then fantastic! And if it takes an extra year, then half-fantastic.

  • mhayes8655 zone4mn
    9 years ago

    I'm at the north end of zone 4 and just starting my third year with raspberries, fall gold, heritage, prelude, and queen anne yellow. Last year I got my first primocane berry 9/7 and had fall berries till mid Oct. In 2012 the first killing frost was first week of Oct., so about a month of fall berries. Must be our slightly warmer summers. The primocanes for this year are already starting to appear, its amazing how fast they shoot up. Makes for tough picking on the june/july berries from last years canes. This fall I'm going to try using some 6 mil clear plastic sheeting, possibly lights as well, to protect from the first couple killing frosts. My goal is raspberries till Nov! We'll see

  • wxjunkie (3a)
    9 years ago

    After a long, relatively warm fall and mild winter (only to -24F/-31C, though Fairbanks hit -40 several times) at my location, buds are pushing on most of the 31 varieties of blackberries I am testing. None received protection other than the 23 inches (58 cm) of snow that accumulated over the winter. The lowest temp recorded prior to the establishment of a snow cover was about 5F (-13C). Looks like Illini Hardy (first pic) and Stenulson (second pic) have 100% cane survival and Marion has about 60%. It remains to be seen if the flower buds survived the winter, though. The other varieties have yet to leaf out enough to determine the total cane survival. PrimeArk 45 died to the ground, as it has every year. It grows a whopping 2.5 ft (75 cm) each summer and doesn't flower. From this I don't think Prime Jim or Prime Jan stand a chance here either, so I won't waste my money.
    As far as raspberries go, my Cumberland black raspberries that produced 5-6 ft (1.5 - 2 m) canes are leafing out almost to the tips. They were weighted down and covered by the snow (and 3 freezing rain events) over the winter. Plenty of green buds on all of my yellow and red varieties, as well.

  • wxjunkie (3a)
    9 years ago

    Here's the Stenulson picture. Sorry, not tech savvy enough to upload more than one pic at a time evidently.

  • mattpf (zone4)
    9 years ago

    Don what is your soil type this is planted in. Blackberry is one of the worlds best things to eat and I love them.
    I've read though they prefer lower ph

  • don555
    9 years ago

    Mattpf, nothing special about my garden soil. The previous owner created the garden when this house was built about 30 years ago, and he put a generous 30 cm of local topsoil over the local subsoil, and the subsoil is the dense silty clay of glacial Lake Edmonton. Been under my care for over 20 years, and I have never added any acidifying agent, all I add is some fertilizer and the annual contents of my compost bins (about 2/3 cubic metre of well-rotted vegetable and leaf compost). I've never had a proper soil test done, but it is the same soil I use to grow corn, squash, onions, carrots, etc. If I had to guess, I'd say pH 6 to 7.

    Wxjunkie, seems up near Fairbanks you have much better winter survival, with less physical protection (like straw/burlap), than I have in central Alberta. The other issue I'm always concerned about is enough heat for berry ripening -- in my zone they don't start to ripen until August, and they don't really finish ripening until the end of September, assuming we have had a frost-free and warm September. How has this played out for you?

  • mhayes8655 zone4mn
    9 years ago

    Don555 this question is mainly directed at you, however anyone with experience with rasp and blackberries your insights would be welcomed. Just wondering if BBs are slower to sucker than rbs? I've got hundreds of rb suckers coming up some already a foot tall, however I've only seen 3 primocanes coming up from my bb's. The 3 are coming up are only from my Primeark 45's, no signs of suckers from my other 2 cultivars prime Jim and prime Jan. Thanks for any insights! Mike MN Z4

  • don555
    9 years ago

    BB are definitely slower to sucker than rasps in my climate. Lots of suckers coming up from the rasps, all just a few inches tall, but nothing yet from the BB. Oddly enough, the leaf shoots on the stems of BB floricanes are bigger than the leaf shoots on the rasp floricanes, though both are really just leafing out starting now.

  • mhayes8655 zone4mn
    9 years ago

    Thanks for the info Don. I guess BBs just need a little more heat to get going. Finally gonna warmup starting today hopefully I see a lot more suckers the next week to ten days

  • vic2b3
    9 years ago

    Maybe that French layering would work but involves cutting back hard to basal growth. Have you tried piling soil around the base of the plants to encourage lower buds to break.
    If you merely want more plants then tip layers work very well.

  • wxjunkie (3a)
    9 years ago

    mhayes8655, suckering on BBs for me depends on the variety. It usually takes some time for many of the varieties I am trialing (near 40 at last count) to sprout new suckers, especially those originating from the U of Arkansas program. They do like the heat. However, my Siskiyous were sprouting new suckers almost as soon as the snow melted. This matches the timing of suckering on my most vigorous yellow raspberries (Fall Gold) and a few reds. PrimeArk 45 takes a long time to sucker for me, about a month into the growing season (even though it dies to the ground every year). Suckering also appears to depend on whether there are canes that survived the winter and are leafing out. This may delay suckering as energy is spent to push new growth on the old canes. Overall, the number of suckers produced by raspberries is much higher in my experience than BBs, but then this is reported in many other places that are more temperate.

  • mhayes8655 zone4mn
    9 years ago

    Seeing quite a bit of suckering now on all 3 of my BB cultivars. Even areas where last years canes died completely to the ground new primocanes are coming up. Nice to see them coming back. wxjunkie, we also have the fall gold. Of the 5 raspberry varieties we have, they are probably the family favorite taste wise, and also the most vigorous, hardy, and eager to spread. They're already showing quite a few floricane blossoms, Should be getting berries from those in 3 to 4 weeks

  • wxjunkie (3a)
    9 years ago

    Fall Gold is not fully hardy here and primocane crop is too late. Floricane crop runs from mid-August to mid-October, with the berries really getting sweet in the colder weather. I still think it is the best. But, that's for another forum.

  • vic2b3
    9 years ago

    Well after all the protection none of the canes survived the winter, but we did get down to minus 50 a couple of days.
    The rootstock this past week has shown about 3 inches of growth on both plants but not on the layers I took. Guess it's better late than never so will have to rethink winter protection this year.
    Ben Nevis blackcurrants are fruiting very well and ripening nicely.
    Raspberries died off completely, strawberries produced well.

  • donna_in_sask
    9 years ago

    Fall Gold is fully hardy in my zone 2b garden...in fact, the first year, it survived winter above ground in a black nursery pot! I forgot to plant it and was quite surprised it lived. It isn't a particularly productive variety and the berries tend to fall apart easily. They are very sweet though.

  • FrozeBudd_z3/4
    8 years ago

    Konrad, how did your Russian variety of blackberries and the Balsors winter? It was a particularly mild winter with good snow coverage and likely not a true test of a plants hardiness. Today, I received 4 strong healthy Balsors Black in the mail from Veseys.

  • Konrad..just outside of Edmonton Alberta
    8 years ago

    Yeah..not a testing winter, canes look alive but I covered them up a bit with leaves. One good cane got eaten/chewed through by voles, darn! [ Balsor]. The Russian hasn't grown much last year, still small and it was under the snow,..so far so good.

  • Anne Van Dijk
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    thanks for all the info so far. I have a BB in a pot here (sale plant cost less than a clam of BB's. It had some small green berries on when I bought it, Once ripened they tasted real good!)) and was thinking to let it freeze and loose it leaves, and then put it in the garage. Did anyone try this?

    It starts to throw out some long canes now. I might take some cuttings to multiply and try a few different ideas.

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