You've probably researched this, but I have to ask anyway... wouldn't corn and soy meal just attract birds and mice to your lawn? Why not use finely ground compost as a top-dressing instead? Surely the Edmonton Composting Facility must produce a product that would be better than corn or soy meal?:

http://www.edmonton.ca/for_residents/composting_grasscycling/compost-and-topsoil-sales.aspx

I'm not sure about the birds and mice to be honest. All I know is that the guys that do organic lawn care use these products as fertilizers. Compost is not fertilizer, it provides the microbes that are needed to process the organic protein (i.e. corn meal) so that they can then provide the nutrients to your lawn. From what I've read, you don't even need to use compost regularly, or at all, if your soil is already healthy. I'm not going to use the corn meal etc as top dressing. I'm gonna use them in lieu of chemical fertilizers.

Corn Gluten ( not corn meal ) can be found at Canadian Tire, Peavy Mart or Lowes. A bag which costs approximately $30 will be enough for approximately 1000 square feet if I recall correctly. If the price is an issue then why bother with the alfalfa and soy bean meal? When you mow your lawn in the fall, mow up all your leaves at the same time, chop them finely and reapply the mixture to your lawn. In the spring use the corn gluten. I have the darkest green lawn on the block and I'm the only one that I can tell that doesn't use chemicals.

As far as the compost issue goes, No you do not need to use compost regularly or at all, but healthy soil will not continue to be healthy forever without regular application of compost or chemicals, which I refuse to use.

Hey Don :) I thought the same thing as you regarding the birds in particular, and also mice. The first time I used corn gluten, I watched like a hawk to see if the birds would swarm my lawn. Nope. I'm not sure why, and I've never found evidence of mice either. :)

"If the price is an issue then why bother with the alfalfa and soy bean meal?" - I'm not sure what you mean. It's not that I don't want to pay the cost, I'm looking for the best possible deal. I just felt that the Bulk Barn/Walmart won't be the cheapest prices. I have read that farm/feed stores are the best sources but I can't seem to find any that carry corn meal and soy bean meal. I want to get them in bulk and at the lowest cost as I plan to dump quite a bit throughout the season.

"When you mow your lawn in the fall, mow up all your leaves at the same time, chop them finely and reapply the mixture to your lawn." - Are you in Edmonton too? If so, what month do you do this? My concern is that it won't decompose fast enough before snow hits and then you have all that trash underneath the snow all winter. I shredded my leaves with the mower and then put the grass and leaves mixture into my tumbler for composting.

"soil will not continue to be healthy forever without regular application of compost or chemicals" - Which chemicals are you referring to to make the soil healthy? As far as I know, moving away from chemicals is the first step to a healthier soil so as not to kill the microbes. I have read that you don't need compost to maintain the healthy soil as long as it's alive with microbes etc and your cultural practices do not inhibit that life, it will sustain itself, ie mulch mowing, proper irrigation, organic fertilizers, no chemicals etc.

I was planning on overseeding and I think CGM will inhibit growth as it is a pre emergent.

This post was edited by llO0DQLE on Mon, Apr 7, 14 at 21:32

Yes, corn gluten is a pre-emergent so you can't use it at the same time as you overseed.

In the fall when your lawn is covered in dry leaves is when you want to start . The mixture that you put into your tumbler was the mixture you could have thrown back on your lawn. By the time all the trees have lost their leaves I've done the front lawn 5-6 times. The mixture is primarily dry leaves, BTW. As you well know the grass isn't growing much anymore in the fall. Each time I do it I mow, dump into a row, mow over it again, dump, and mow over it again. By then it's very finely chopped and I then throw it all over. You can use your best judgement regarding how much you want to reapply to your lawn. I throw any extra onto the flower beds. ( It doesn't break down there nearly as much as on the lawn. There's small amounts left in the spring) There is no garbage on the lawn when spring comes. It's all gone. All I do is a very light raking to remove the small amount of regular spring dead grass.

Of course compost is a fertilizer. It's around .1-.1-.1.

Ok, thanks for the tip. I actually collected 4 bags of dry leaves last fall which I have stored in my garage over the winter for composting. Maybe I will try using some of it for fertilizing.

"Of course compost is a fertilizer. It's around .1-.1-.1."

Really? That's like saying rice is a "protein" because it has 2g of protein per cup when it is really a carb.

Well then you should probably use more than a cup on your lawn?

Or I could not be a smartass idiot and actually use real fertilizers for.. you know..fertilizing. Why use bags of compost to fertilize and only get .1-.1-.1 of NPK when I can use other organic material with much higher NPK for the same volume.

That's like saying, I need 150g of protein/day to maintain muscle mass so I will eat 75 cups of rice per day. Stupid.

Bottom line, compost has value in providing microbes, but not to fill the role as "fertilizer" in a lawn program.

I don't agree with the idea that compost only has value for providing microbes. Microbes explode when you are making compost -- my composters have hit 130F and above even with snow falling on them in autumn, thanks to an explosion of microbial activity breaking down the garden residue from the Fall cleanup. But when the microbes subside and the compost is finished (usually by the next fall... I just use the bin method) what I really have is humus (well-decomposed organic matter). That stuff is great for increasing water-holding capacity in the soil, improving aeration, texture, etc. And it adds back all those nutrients that went into producing that organic matter itself. It's going to be slow-release fertilizer for sure, but it's still NPK. I have a hard time seeing corn or other meal as being much different, though it may go through the composting/breakdown period faster thanks to it's higher nitrogen to carbon ratio versus that in leaves and stems.

As for myself, I never bag grass clippings, I let them fall on the lawn to break down and provide nutrients. I usually use one application of high-nitrogen chemical lawn fertilizers in the Spring, and that's it. I tried going with zero fertilizers and it worked okay for the first year or two, then the weeds became a problem as they invaded my unhealthy turf. So I'm back to spring fertilizing with chemicals.

I'm not gonna debate organic lawn care here as I am not an expert and I will just be regurgitating stuff I've read. AFAIK Humus isn't fertilizer either. However, if you want to, you can go ahead to the other lawn forum, where the diehard lawn care people discuss soil chemistry and analyses and etc. That's where I'm getting my info from and I think those guys know what they're talking about. If you don't have any idea which other lawn forum I'm talking about..then, there's no point discussing any further.

Fair enough. If you do find the meals you are after and use them on your lawn, please report back with the results. I'd be interested to know how they work for you in this climate and what are the positives and negatives with their use.

"Or I could not be a smartass idiot and actually use real fertilizers for.. you know..fertilizing. Why use bags of compost to fertilize and only get .1-.1-.1 of NPK when I can use other organic material with much higher NPK for the same volume. "

Yeah, so if you go the CGM route, don't expect to be buying a little box for your lawn...

I've used alfafa... Again, you're going to be using A LOT. And it ain't cheap.

Since you have a lot of clippings, it is perfectly viable for you to make compost from it. What's the problem? It's free, you know.

This post was edited by shazam_z3 on Fri, Apr 25, 14 at 18:12

I suggest you read the OP. I'm not looking for compost, I have compost. I'm looking for the aforementioned items I want to use as organic fertilizer. Before you start trying to debate me again that compost is fertilizer, read the ff:

http://faq.gardenweb.com/faq/lists/organic/2004020829016580.html

FWIW, lots of FAQ's are written by members and is their opinion on the topic. It may be the opinion of others that compost can be used as a fertilizer because it does contain NPK. Possibly why it is being suggested and the fact it is much cheaper.

Sorry I can't help you with where you can locally get them. I tried using some of those products you mentioned and I could not financially justify the results as they where much like don555's. While it might be cheaper in your area it was running me about $50 per 1000 sq ft and I have 12,000 sq ft of lawn, Locally, my products all came from a Nurseryland franchisee.

Good luck and I, too, would love to have you report back with your results.

SCG

Yeah, lets start calling rice a "protein" too because it contains 2g of protein per 30g serving even though it's comprised mainly of carbohydrates. Like I said earlier, I don't care to debate about this, go to Around The Yard and debate David Hall and all those other diehard lawn guys there who do organic lawn care, Milorganite, soil tests etc.

i was in greenland garden centre (sherwood park) yesterday,
and they had large bags of natural fertilizer/inputs specifically for lawn care
i did not look too deeply into them, so i can't tell you the ingredients in each (phone them for more info)

try ufa for possible bulk meals (check their website, ufa.com, and get the closest location for you and phone them for info)

Nobody was trying to debate you here. Just pointing out other facts. That being said you are dead wrong. By definition compost IS a fertilizer. Whether a good one or not is the debate. Rice is not a protein but is a source of protein, again whether a good one or not is debatable.

It is too bad you couldn't see that everyone was doing their best to try and help you since they didn't know of sources you requested. Obviously you didn't read my whole post or you would have seen that I also suggested trying a Nurseryland Franchisee as it was the source I got my stuff from when I attempted the organic route.

Good luck.

SCG

Thanks intotheark!

SCG - that's exactly my point, it's semantics. 0.1-0.1-0.1 of NPK, you'd really turn to that as your fertilizer component for your lawn program? My curt replies were directed to Shazam being a smartass, nobody else. I appreciate the input of everybody else in this thread. You say no one is trying to debate me and yet here you are trying to debate semantics and whether compost is considered a good/bad fertilizer.

In a lawn program, you need proper irrigation, mowing practices and fertilizers etc. All are components of the program. My point was that if you really want to use compost as THE fertilizer component of your program and nothing else, that it doesn't fit that role well.

I did read your whole post and noted the source you suggested and I will look into it and thanks for that. I was just replying to your statement that FAQs are just opinions by the writer.

What I see is you playing semantics more than everyone else. Instead of calling people down you could have just said compost does meet the requirements I need. Note that nothing you are asking for to use is more of a "fertilizer than just being a source of one of the components you are looking for. Which everything discussed provides, just not in the quantity you wish.

I will stand behind my post that the FAQ you posted is nothing more than another members opinion. That is nothing more than fact.

Good luck and I hope your results were better than mine. If so I hope you report back so I can learn.

*edit* sorry the analogy of rice being a protein still bugs me. Comparing rice to being a protein would be like comparing compost to being nitrogen since it has, arguably in amounts, nitrogen in it. This analogy is just wrong.

SCG

This post was edited by SouthCountryGuy on Sun, Apr 27, 14 at 21:10

I'm the one playing semantics? Are you kidding me? I even went on to explain that I'm talking about the practical application, in that if something had such low NPK values, you can't reasonably expect it to provide you the benefits you're looking for from a fertilizer. There's a reason chemical ferts are 30-0-10. Stand by all you want about his opinion, he's not the only one with that opinion. Like I said, go to the other forum with the die hard lawn guys and debate them. I'm done. See ya.

"Instead of calling people down you could have just said compost does meet the requirements I need" --Why the heck would I say that? Are you daft? That's exactly the opposite of what I've been saying, that it WON'T meet my requirements for a fertilizer as the NPK values are too low.

"Comparing rice to being a protein would be like comparing compost to being nitrogen since it has, arguably in amounts, nitrogen in it. This analogy is just wrong. "

Are you stupid? I am not saying that rice IS a protein. I was saying that calling compost a fertilizer due to it having minimal amounts of NPK would be akin to calling rice a protein since it has a tiny bit of protein. Get it now? I was using that to point out that even though compost has a minute amount of NPK, that I wouldn't call it a fertilizer just cause NPK is present, as it does not have enough NPK to really fill the role as a fertilizer in a lawn program. It's there to provide microbes that digest the organic protein from the corn meal, SBM etc. *Facepalm

"Or I could not be a smartass idiot"

"Are you daft?"

"Are you stupid?"

I just have to jump in here and mention something. Anybody who reads this thread is likely going to be unwilling to try to help you out in the future. This forum is not meant for comments like this.

I didn't realize this was an Amish forum. Gotta love it when I get called out for such comments and the one calling me out does not factor in what led to those comments. Yeah, Shazam wasn't being a smartass, right? And it's not like I jumped on SCG saying those things right away, I was pretty civil unti I got fed up with him being thick..oh well, such is life..

When you don't listen nor have a sense of humour you end up in your position.

Good luck and I would still enjoy hearing on your results.

Good bye.

SCG

Listen to what? I did listen to what you were saying, and I refuted it. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I am "not listening". You however have not refuted my argument. And I'm sorry I didn't realize you were trying to do stand up comedy. Don't quit your day job just yet.

Actually you are the stand up comedy. Why I continue to post on your threads is entertaining, yet not so much. Decide if you want help from local people that have done what you are asking about or not. Ican offer all the organic experiences I had. Nothing more

This thread went the way of the kids game where someone whispers a word to their neighbour and so on to the end of the line and in the end it's nothing like what it started as .

Just to add a little twist to this thread, corn and soya beans that are being grown in the far north are generally genetically modified and are grown using lots of chemicals. How much residual material is left I don't know, they use the meal as animal feed but that means very little, but to say that it is organic, hmmm, a person would have to get it tested. Hope for some warmer weather so things really start to grow.

This post was edited by wayne61 on Sun, May 11, 14 at 11:22