WOW!

Konrad, how long after grafting until the Lapins had fruited for you, two years? Really great that you have found that the pincherry will provide a hardy framework for these more tender varieties. On a sunny protected slope, I have an ideal location for such cherry culture.

Are you attempting other tender varieties?

Terry

Congrats Konrad. Is Lapins Cherry the kind we buy from the supermarket? The cherry in your photo sure looks like it. Is there a plentiful source of Lapin Cherry cuttings available for grafting? For the last few years I've been trying to grow the store bought cherries from seeds without sucess. My plan was to graft the seedlings to my hardy Montmerency cherry. I certaimly would like to graft a Lapins to my hardy cherry. I fact I eould like to graft quite a few. I, and others readers, I am sure would like more information about this.

Sengyan

Thank you all!

>>how long after grafting until the Lapins had fruited for you, two years?

Yes, only my third year...well we had two mild winters!..not over the hill yet!

>>Are you attempting other tender varieties?

As most of you know, last year I had some Stella on Evans fruiting, also this year, Ranier is looking good so far, I'm pushing for that one to fruit next year! LOL

>>Is Lapins Cherry the kind we buy from the supermarket

Yes, that's the one.

>>Is there a plentiful source of Lapin Cherry cuttings available for grafting

Kuhlmans, has some sweet verities, where I bought mine.

>> For the last few years I've been trying to grow the store bought cherries from seeds

Seeds will most likely, 99.99% not grow into a useful fruit, you can use it as a rootstock.

Konrad

Konrad, wow it looks delicious! (did you eat it already??) It looks like you grafted a small branch onto the pincherry tree. Do you have to prune the pincherry a lot so it doesn't divert all its energy away from the Lapins branch?

I remember when my plum tree started dying, the rootstock started growing all over the place and I couldn't keep up with pruning it back... the Pembina plum just lost the battle and I finally cut it all down.

Konrad, I'm glad you are trying such grafting and giving us hope that maybe one day we can grow such delicious cherries for ourselves!

Terry

Thank you all!

>>did you eat it already?

Yes, yesterday, the best cherry ever! nice and crunchy.
I never had to protect it from the birds, because it was camroflashed by other Evans Cherry.
Stella Cherry at home, have put two layers of bird netting over it and still, the birds managed to pick about half of them.

>>It looks like you grafted a small branch onto the pincherry tree. Do you have to prune the pincherry a lot so it doesn't divert all its energy away from the Lapins branch?

When grafting, one always has to graft the last years grows, in other words, whatever grew this year, you can use for grafting or budding. I usually use a piece with two or three budds, and do a bark grafting in spring, when I see leafs pushing.
There is no pincherry growing on this stem, all was cut off ones the graft took.
It was grafted about 4 foot up, but doesn't have too, you can graft a few inches from the ground.
Konrad

Konrad, how exactly do you graft one tree onto another. What is your sucess rate in doing this?
Shelley

Here is a link, I do it slightly different, it seems everybody has a modified technique, I will post
some pictures later, as for now, I have no pictures of the actual scion wood shape of cut.

>>What is your success rate in doing this?

This is like with everything else, the more you do it, the better you get at it!
It needs allot of practice, to get your speed and accuracy of cut, the faster you can join the two pieces of wood the better it is, this will enhance less contamination, or drying of contact points.
Weather plays a major factor too!... dry periods is not favorable for the joints to grow!
Also after some years, you will know the health of you scion wood better, [very important]
It is best to start with something more easily, like apple and pear, then work yourself up to plum and cherry.
As for a start with apple, the beginner can expect a success rate of about 50% or better.
At my skill, it's anywhere from 80 to 100%
Sweet cherries are the hardest it seems for me, Evans, sour cherry are the easiest, 80 to 100 %
Sweet cherries about 60 to 80 %.

It is best to get hands on practice from someone who knows the skill....it can save you many, many years of trial and error!

ANYBODY
Who wants to learn, I will be at Devonian Gardens, Sept. 17 [Fruit Festival] and can show you quickly the basic. I will be demonstrating the Juicer again this Year.
Also, anybody who wants to come and show there fruits can e mail me for further datails.

This is part of the growers news letter...

Don't forget to encourage attendance of this event by other people and friends that you are aware of, who are interested in this subject.
The whole purpose is one of sharing information and experiences and fellowship with kindred spirits.
We plan to send out a more formal agenda in a few weeks.
Please email or send a copy of this announcement to everyone you know that may be interested.
This is an informal group and anyone with a serious interest in the general topic of fruit growing is automatically a member.
Again if you have any ideas or suggestions please don't hesitate to let us know .
I look forward to seeing everyone once again!
For the Devonian Botanic Garden, Fruit Growers

Konrad

Here is a link that might be useful: Bark Grafting...

Konrad, so grafting near ground level will impart the same hardiness as doing so higher up in the tree? Do you also practice budding at this time of the year?

Terry

Congratulations. Very interesting results Konrad! Nothing like eating good fruit in mid summer heat, cherries are the best!

Hopefully global warming will be kind to you. But then there is my town in Fairbanks AK and my experiment, the coldest year I have ever experienced there. You were hinting earlier on odds sooner or later the cold snaps will hit in your area some day. With your location and sweet cherry combinations you may well be in a special situation as your last year Stella I still remember. I was very appreciative of your communications and I quite agree this helps many.

So Konrad, I'm going to finish the message on another thread because your looking at sweet cherry here and I wanted to put out there more of pie cherry. So you might please, upon seeing my new post, think of making as I will to you one link to mine?

Thank you all!

Terry, I have grafted some Evans a few inches off the ground on low laying ground, the trees are producing lots of cherries, where some other Evans just beside it, on there own root never ever produced in about 12 years, some died.
Also a tender plum, [in town] rated zone 5, Green Gage [Reineclaude] has plums about 6 inches off the ground.
Good snow cover of coarse can play a major role too!
I would graft some high, some low and see.

Alcan, 51 degree, that's minus 46 Celsius...Brrrrrr......
At those temperatures you need a lot of snow cover, otherwise kiss good by on many things!
Thanks for adding these links, you sure do it so nicely,....I wouldn't know how!
Konrad

Nice job Konrad.

I just read the post now...next time your putting on a grafting experiment I'd like to watch! I was not aware you could graft sweet onto sour.

I have a Lapins in Edm as well and last summer I was astounded by how much it grew in all directions, tree is huge (not to mention its planted 5 ft underground).

It produced a bit of fruit and I am encouraged to read I'm not the only one crazy enough to try this.

A follow up Q...

How are you protecting in the winter? November was pretty nasty and we have a long way to go yet to get through this winter and Id like to know what others are doing.

Robtos

I am delighted that you also have a Lapin cherry in Edmonton. From which nursery did you get yours. What have you done to protect it this fall/winter. I have a sour Montmerency cherry and I would like to graft a Stella (from Konrad) and Lapin to it next spring.

Sengyan

Hi sengyan,

First of all, I bought the Lapins from Kuhlmanns, as far as I know their the only local distributor. I asked one of the workers and they told me the trees come in from BC, but they are only carrying Lapins and Stella at this time, which makes sense as they are self-fert. Perhaps if us and folks like us continue to have success we can encourage them to expand their selection to include other zone 4-5 types like Rainier, but thats a bit of a stretch right now.

Anyways, onto protection, all I am doing is shovelling snow 6 ft high surrounding the tree. Like I said earlier, it grew so much this last year that that is a problem now, since the tree is 13 feet high (not including 5 ft underground). The staff member at Kuhlmanns told me planting the tree this deep is paramount for survival. Luckily I had good drainage...if the location of the roots is a watertrap that'll kill the tree.

Back to winter protection, shovelling snow around it might protect from wind but thats it. There must be something else we can do. I think Konrad is onto the right idea with grafting as if the grafted lapins/stella takes on the cold hardiness properties of the host perhaps we'll see long term benefits.

Lastly, I am (a) hoping to hear more suggestions regarding winter protection and (b) what types of sour cherry trees can we try to graft? This might sound ridiculous, but I heard of people grafting cherry onto plum or apricot...is grafting onto a ex. pembina possible? Sorry for my ignorance I am just learning.

Cheers all.

Thanks robtos!

>>next time your putting on a grafting experiment I'd like to watch
Perhaps come out to Devonian Gardens to the fruit festival next fall, allot of people have watched this year, including Sengyan.
By the way Sengyan...have you practiced??

>> (not to mention its planted 5 ft underground).
How did you manage to do that? LOL....Was the tree 6 foot to start out with?
Planting this deep might be OK, I could only think of hardening off too late in fall?
Have bought some from Kuhlmanns too, we'll see what growing this spring!

>>How are you protecting in the winter? November was pretty nasty and we have a long way to go yet to get through this winter and Id like to know what others are doing.

I haven't done anything, indeed, this winter could be an eye opener, at least what's under the snow should be OK.
The tree, picture above, definitely not under the snow, grafted to something hardy and will carry over into the tender
verity, if temperatures will not drop more then minus 37C, we might be OK ?

Konrad

Devonian Gardens, I'm looking forward to it.

Your opinion, if burying the tree under snow protects it how much of my Lapins would you feel comfortable in burying?

When I bought the tree at Kuhlmanns it was about 12 feet in total, and the painted on marks were about 3.5 -4 feet up the tree. The store rep told me to plant it to that line. My nephew and I dug the hole that deep and we planted it in my moms garden, she has excellent soil which she has been working for almost 40 years and it wasnt until 4 feet down did we finally start to hit clay.

Anyways we dug a huge hole and popped her in, deeper than the painted on marks, including mounding 5 feet. The tree seems to like it as it is surviving winters, producing fruit and exceeding my expectations with growth. Including the underground depth she is 17-18 feet high.

I have a Stella in my backyard as my first Lapins died (planted 3 feet underground, poor drainage, didnt even make it to the winter) I live in a new subdivision on the Northern tip of the city, I couldnt find a hole anywhere where the water would drain...ce la vie...

The tag when I bought the Lapins said it can withstand to -35 C. I imagine tree to tree there must be some variance...give or take a degree or fraction of a degree. I havent heard of a lot of people from Edm who have planted Lapins and have them die in the winter. When my brother seen how the Lapins is growing he bought a Stella and has it in his yard...so far so good. I'm wondering if the hardiness of these trees is just a bit understated???

Time will tell.

Hi Konrad

I practised 4 times. Still not confident. I am undecided whether to use the cleft graftint method ( of which I am quite proficient ) or the bark grafting method.

Hi Robtos

I am happy to note that you live in the north side of Edm. I am in Castledowns. If you have e-mail we can exchange information. My e-mail address is in My Page.

Sengyan

robtos, I have never before heard of burying the trunk of a tree down so very deeply, I'd tend to think that the stem would later want to rot ... but, maybe not? I know that doing so on other trees would definitely be the death of them. Have you come across any information regarding this?

sengyan, chip budding is a very easy method, one I had used with very good success late this summer ... it was my first attempt at doing so and is very easy! Here's a link as to how to chip bud.

http://www.ianrpubs.unl.edu/epublic/live/g1518/build/g1518.pdf

Terry

twrosz, I as well had never heard of this method, sorry, it was the staff at Kuhlmanns that explained it to me and the benefit they explained was to protect it in winter. I dont know if they knew what they were talking about but the tree is still alive and getting older. I tried without success on internet search engines for any rationale behind this deep planting. My thinking is that there are not too many people living in zone 3-4 trying this and we are sort of "pioneers". In the summer I frequent Kuhlmanns and other garden centres and I have never seen a Lapins as big as the one I bought a few years back, hence the reasons the markings were 4 ft up the tree in mine...last year the lapins and stella's they were selling were comparitively short and therefore the plant markings were respectively short as well.

The reason for deep planting, [above the graft] is for many reasons, a few I can think of,..... growing additional root system above the graft, the tree will have two root systems, below, the roots from the selected rootstock, above, roots from the cultivar, this sometimes is preferred, especially in our northerly climate, the reason of winter kill down to the ground, the tree can shoot up again and you will still remain growing the selected cultivar and not just the root stock.
Also, when planting deeper, the tree will grow differently, sometimes the tree grows larger, sometimes smaller, fruiting differently, sometimes better sometimes worse etc.
I also have planted a few inches above the graft but not up to the paint mark. I never knew what that paint mark was good for, I figured it was there for a I.D. marking to the nursery itself, and had nothing to do to the buyer.....but I could be wrong.
Konrad

Konrad is correct. Burying the bud union will induce roots to grow from the stem above the graft. In case of winter die back to the ground, new growth of the Lapin will appear instead of from the rootstock. I plant my roses with the bud union 6 inches below ground level. In time, sometimes as quickly as a year, the plant will be growing on its own roots. This planting method is prevalent among cold climate rose growers. It is a form of winter protection.

Twrosz

Thank you for your information. I have read about chip rafting while researching grafting methods. I am still more inclined towards cleft grafting. but I'll try bark grafting also.

Sengyan

Well folks we'll know soon if all our Lapins (& Stella's too) survived another Edm winter...any predictions???

robtos. With all the snow that has fallen the cherry trees should have good snow cover and therefore save from freeze-thaws. I have more than 3 feet over my roses in the front yard from the driveway and sidewalk. I am keeping my fingers crossed for all the lapin and stella cherries in Edm.

Sengyan

Agree with Sengyan!
You guys in the city should be OK!
Out in the country remains to be seen, but I think [hope] the worst is over and we are off for
another good season!.......thanks to global warming!..LOL
Konrad

Regarding sweet cherry seedlings on Aug 7, 06 at 2:39 Kanrad stated;
"Seeds will most likely, 99.99% not grow into a useful fruit, you can use it as a rootstock."

A couple of days ago at the master gardeners conference one of your Canadian fruit breeders Dr. Bors, the main speaker, briefly mentioned about the chances of getting good fruit from seeds. It was stated "Cherry seeds are acceptable/good for about 85% of them. Apple seeds only 1%." That comment didn't surprise me because I used to sample a selection of open pollinated asian pear seedlings (99% bad) and I have picked a few wild cherries before that seeded from birds and were all good.

ByTheWay, Dr. Bors is still around conducting business. I think his priority for being here is to work with UAF and an exchange program for newer honeysuckle hybrids here in Fairbanks. Tomorrow I will get to meet and talk to him more about ideas for cherries, what to graft them to and what makes them hardy. He has a hybrid between Amur cherry (P. maackii) and Tart/pie cherries (P. cerasus) that he says grows 6 feet a year. There is no question that from it's ancestry it would be hardy for you in Edmonton, and compatible as a rootstock for cherries coming from the people I talked to. The rest of the problem is, of course finding the best cold hardy cherry to graft on it.

Good to know alcan!
My high number % applied more to a satisfactory fruit of commercial value and I'm sure for
apple it is about the same, 1% is extremely high IMO.
Sure, for a hobby grower it doesn't matter so much.
I have grown apple seedling into trees and produceing crab apple type
apples,.. just for the birds. I sure love those trees, pink blossoms in spring, dark leaf
and the birds are happy late fall or early spring.
I remember in Switzerland, there were some cherries growing in ditches and edge of woods,
as kids we used to eat some, not the biggest cherries but still better then none.
With Evans cherry pits I have tried it and found out as Dr.Evans has stated,.. that you get a
inferior tree. I now have grafted some of these and have yet to find out the results.

. >>He has a hybrid between Amur cherry (P. maackii) and Tart/pie cherries (P. cerasus) that he says grows 6 feet a yearInteresting!....Do you know the quality of this cherry?

>> There is no question that from it's ancestry it would be hardy for you in Edmonton, and compatible as a rootstock for cherries coming from the people I talked to. The rest of the problem is, of course finding the best cold hardy cherry to graft on it.Last spring, I have grafted a few Amur cherries with some sweet verities,....as it is done in
Alaska, ....again, will see what happens.

Thanks for your update!
Konrad

I don't know the quality Konrad. The picture was shown for the trunk section as an asset to the landscape. From a fruit breeding stand point, amur-maackii (~1/3gram) is tiny berried, pie-cerasus is the size of Evans (~4.4grams) and they say the hybrids have a tenancy of inheriting the smaller size and tartness is a dominant charicteristic. All said probably a 1 gram tart fruit.

There is much more to be said about grafting tender varieties of cherry high up on a hardy cherry stock even if it's a hybrid like your doing with amur cherry. I haven't tried it myself yet but students at U of Sask have and high works. After tomorrow, after I find out more from Dr. Bors, and then if I find out here that you want to know, I'll fill you in.

I have a Montmorency tree at my old place that is throwing up suckers all over the place. I plan on moving some of them to my new place this spring. I've never grafted before, but do you think I could graft a Lapins or Stella to them. I'd give anything to grow my own sweet cherries, my favorite fruit and food!

Alcan, I want to hear everything you have to say from Dr. Bors,et al.

Leftwood,
After talking with Bors about these previous experiments at Sask grafting high I found out it applied only to using less than 2 year old pie cherry seedlings as scions. Apparently such seedlings when less than 2 years old grow out of sync. and often winter kill (when left growing that way) where as the more mature bigger trees work in sync. (stop growing soon enough). Using these young scions when grafting high to mature trees makes them change to act more mature... thus the act of grafting high saves tender seedling types from otherwise freezing to death.

In light of these facts it now appears that maybe grafting high tender varieties on a hardy rootstock no longer applies the way I used to think because it applies to making seedlings cold hardier which in itself might have nothing to do with how hardy the rootstock your grafting to is... Notice I said might. So I'm going to give it a shot using sweet cherries high on the hardy Amur cherry anyways. Who knows.

Grafting on Amur cherry is good anyways for vole prevention. Has anyone seen a moose eat Amur cherry? I havn't. Neither has Dr. Bors seen it. He's tasted them and says the reason must be that the wood is too tart. He's also pulled opened freezers with his hybrid pie cherries inside and says the whole freezer smells really great (ie. compelling to herbivores) as of sweet cherries.

How big of an Amur cherry are we talking here, for maturity? I would think that size isn't that much of a factor, rather it would be if the Amur cherry is blooming/fruiting or not. Am I right?

I know this makes for lots of reading. A summary of all this is online, if you have adobe acrobat scroll to page 355 inside of this link,
http://www.cshs.ca/annual_meeting/scientific_2002/Symposium_S13.pdf
You can also get at least 2 hits by googling for the name of Bob's student "Qiuju Lu" to find the full multipage thesis.
If your willing to do the reading and figure it out, let us know your ideas. As far as I know, nobody really knows the exact science, so good question Leftwood. It is well understood that marginally hardy cherries need to have turned down the growth flush by first frost in order to have the best chances to survive the winter, surely the U of Sask pie cherry hybrids need this.
(ie. http://www.dnagardens.com/cherry_evans_tips.htm)

I am not sure what your experience is. I am sure Konrad must be familiar, but unless you explain your ideas a little better I might miss hitting your question on the nail. I think you got the jist of it though, but like I said before, there are so many other variables knowbody knows about yet.

Konrad, sengyen...how are your Lapins/Stella's?

Mine are both alive and well. Lapins only had about 20+ flowers on it and I am disappointed about that...but if it grows this year as much as it grew last it is going to be one enormous tree come fall!

I'm hoping yours' are doing well also!

Cheers

Rob

Hi,

Which makes better jam (etc.): chokecherry or pin cherry? And is it true that you shouldn't plant a chokecherry near a prunus avium (sweetcherry), as chokercherry (p. virginiana) is the main host for x-disease - that it will spread to the sweetcherry easily?

Hi,

1. If allowed to grow as a shrub, instead of pruning away the suckers and growing as a single-trunk tree, how wide and tall does a mature Pin Cherry grow; or is it that it always, eventually, becomes a tree? Some sites say it is a nearly 15' tall shrub; some sites say it is a 30' tall tree.

2. I was thinking about forgoing getting a 3-in-1 on a gisela-5 rootstock, and, having read of Konrad's results, growing a single Pin Cherry shrub where some of the stuckers will have Lapins, Rainer, Mont., etc. Prunus avium sweet cherries. Since I want the Pin Cherry to grow and not be pruned back like a typical orchard tree, will the fruiting be somewhat good compared to a 10'w x 14'h pruned 3-in-1 dwarf-rootstock situation?

Thank you,
Steve

I was just wondering if you could give a update on your Lapins and Stella cherry trees. Did they survive this winter? Did you get cherries this year? Can I plant a Lapins in zone 4a?

Thanks for any updates!

Steve, as to which tastes better, both the chockcherry and Pincherry have a rich intense flavor. Last year, we had picked all sorts of chockcherries in our front yard, the jelly was amazing, the syrup is simply outstanding for pancakes! Pincherry jelly is what I consider elite, like OMG I love the flavor!

The height of pincherries are so dependent upon the source. I have seen mature plants that are only 5 or 6 ft tall OR those that tower 25 ft.

Terry :)

The first year of my lapin cherries was great.The fruits were big and sweet.But the second and third year was disaster.It was bearing fruits,but it became pink to slightly red small fruits to dark brown and fell to the ground.They didn`t grow big.What do you think happen?

This is a new one for me...sorry can't help you, perhaps ask this in the Orchard forum.

Terry,
I looked the other day on the pin cherries, here we get a good fruit set this year it seems,.. usually not seen for many years.

Chokecherries are more predictable...very good this years, also
Saskatoon's,.. with all that rain they get nice and big!