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troman1973

Carmine Jewel Dwarf Cherry Tree

troman1973
16 years ago

Hi

I was just wondering if anyone has grown one of these Cherry trees? I saw that it was just introduced into the USA, according to Gurney's magazine. I believe it was introduced in Canada and has hardiness to zone 2b. It is a semi dwarf tree with a height of around 6 1/2 feet. According to their magazine it has better taste than sweet cherry's. It can produce 15lbs of fruit by the fourth year.

This sounds like a great tree if it is as good as they say. To find that cold hardy of a tree is rare.

I am just checking to see if anyone has grown one? or has knowledge of the tree? Any info would be appreciated.

Thanks

Here is a link to the web page

http://gurneys.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_72500

Comments (103)

  • bumanwj_fmctc_com
    13 years ago

    I have planted quite a few of the Crimson Passion and the Carmine Jewel in western Iowa. They are cold hardy but very susceptible to wet weather and cherry leaf spot. I have had a hard time even with a regular fungicide program controlling it and have lost most of the Crimson Passion and a few of the Carmine Jewel

  • nutsaboutflowers
    13 years ago

    Bill 4 Where's your (My Page) section?

    It's always helpful for members to be able to look up your zone,etc.

    Thanks

  • northwoodswis4
    13 years ago

    I'm sorry to hear of Bill4's losses due to cherry leaf spot. Anyone else experience anything like that? I was considering planting a small orchard of Carmen Jewels and others as they become available. Maybe I need to give it second thoughts. Northwoodswis

  • Sherwood Botsford (z3, Alberta)
    12 years ago

    Fruit isn't darker, it's MUCH darker. Postpone picking as long as you can. It continues to get darker and sweeter.

    There are 6 'Romance Cherries' from the univeristy of Saskatchewan. All are the results of crosses between this and that and a mongolian cherry. They don't breed true form seed. Most are cloned by tissue culture.

    By reputation they start to bear in their 4th year, and by year 7 they are producing 25-35 pounds per year. You can maintain them either as a vase shape or as a small tree.

    In sweetness they vary some, but are actually sweater than Bing. But they have lots of citric acid so they are also sour. Think cherry lemonade.

    I'm got 3 varieties potted up. This will be their second year. I'll plant them out this fall, those I don't sell or transplant to larger pots.

    Anyone in the Edmonton Area who wants to see them is welcome to come by once the snow is gone.

    Regarding disease: Everything gets something. One of he ways to prevent this is to keep your trees farther apart. Disease doesn't spread so easily. For small orchard growing, alternate genuses. E.g. Cherry, Apple, Cherry Apple. Or Cherry, short row of raspberries, cherry, short row of raspberries.

  • don555
    12 years ago

    Bummer about Bill4's cherry losses. I looked up cherry leaf spot, and sour cherries seem to be particularly succeptible. I'm not sure where in western Iowa he lives, so I gambled on Des Moines. Des Moines receives 35" of annual precipitation, which is almost double Edmonton's 18", so hopefully the dryness of the prairies can keep cherry leaf spot at bay, as it requires humidity and rain to thrive.

  • skylynn
    12 years ago

    OK, last year I purchased 2 Carmine Jewels one before the other and I planted them that way....well, I can say the deer really go for their leaves.....they were to young for cherry production. OK, they were $30.00 each. But they were doing so well I decided to get another this year....Well, what is this "NO SALE TO CALIFORNIA" now. Fields or Gurneys...to me this says someone has dicovered this can somehow interfere with Cherry Production???? or what?? why would it get banned this year when I could get them (expensive, yes) last year 2010....(This year I needed one to replace the Hansens that died)....I did find one place that would ship to CA, HoneyberryUSA, thank goodness.
    So "they" must know something I don't, to not allow them to be shipped to California. Says they will live for 30 years..hummm, probably longer than I will....hummm, sounds like a pretty sound tree....well, production is to start in year 3....I do think they are be doing well...and somewhere...and someone knows that.....hehe....skylynn

  • lever08853_yahoo_com
    12 years ago

    I live in Tennessee & have a 3yr old Dwarf Carmine
    Jewel that has never bloomed. Does it need a
    pollinator ?? My Nanking cherry bushes have not
    bloomed, either.
    Joan

  • don555
    12 years ago

    I'm very surprised your Carmine bush hasn't bloomed for you yet -- I put in one this spring, it's no more than 2 ft. tall and it had a few blooms. I thought they came into full production about year 4. Maybe you put in a very small seedling or it is in a very shady location? At any rate, no they don't need a pollinator, they are self-fertile.

    Nanking cherries do need a pollinator. They will get a few cherries without a pollinator but vastly more with a pollinator. I think (but am not certain) the Carmine Jewel should work as a pollinator.

  • jeff_fellows_gmail_com
    12 years ago

    Skylynn mentioned, and I just met Bernis Ingvaldson of Honeyberry Farm who is involved with field trials and was exhibiting at Horticulture Days at North Central Research and Outreach Center Grand Rapids, Minnesota http://ncroc.coafes.umn.edu/. Great outfit. Only Zone 3 testing center in lower 48.

    Most excited about the Canadian honeyberries aka Haskap aka Blueberries of the Prairie that I tasted and had to order from her. Reading this thread have to add to my order the Crimson Passion Cherry: Dark red fruit; flesh more firm than other cultivars. Excellent for fresh eating. High sugar content up to 22 Brix. Fruit weighs about 6 gram. Lowest suckering of all the dwarf sour cherries. Grows to about 5.5 ft. Not as vigorous as Carmine Jewel. Released in March 2011 for export to the USA. Shipped plants are minimum 6" tall. for October 2011 Shipping.

    Don't drink wine, actually just like to watch things grow, but thinking I better learn to make jam in the next three or four years ;-)

    Jeff
    New Brighton, MN

    Here is a link that might be useful: Crimson Passion Cherry order

  • ziggro
    12 years ago

    I once considered getting Carmine Jewel, but I'm completely satisfied with my Evans and Meteor cherry trees. Maybe it's just my climate, but both of them are only about 7 feet tall.
    Easy to pick and loaded with beautiful cherries. I don't believe we've hit -40 since I planted them, but from what I've read, both will survive that winter temp.

    The cherries are great when left on the tree to ripen up fully...not only do we enjoy them in pies but they are very good dried.

  • scot_mcpherson_gmail_com
    12 years ago

    I planted six of these this spring. None of them grew very much this year, we've had severe drought and extraordinary heat all summer, they however are nice and green and the trunks have thickened. My 2nd year blueberries didn't grow much this year either. Water just took care of heat stress, not so much for growing. My sweet cherries outright died this summer despite all efforts to keep them alive.

    I'll be interested to try the Carmine jewels when they bare.

  • njbiology
    12 years ago

    Hi,

    1. in zone 6 (northeast), how larger will P. cerasus cv.'North Star' get: I think the advertised 6 to 8 feet is not true - that we're talking more 12 x 12 or 10 x 10, after a while - which is fine, but I just want to know the actual true size.

    2. I have 'North Star' on P. mahaleb rootstock. My soil is moist and black - what would happen if I bury the graft-union: would the scion above the graft likely put out roots, or rot instead. I figure that since both 'North Star' and P. mahaleb are dwarf trees, why not have the scion on it's own roots, that there is no risk of potential graft-rejection, or a size mismatch between rootstock and scion; also, P. mahaleb is not good with moist, black soil - somewhat disease-prune - BUT maybe P. cerasus (the scion) would be worse???

    I would pour sand in the hole around the rootstock and periodically introduce rooting hormone.

    3. What is another good recommendation for a sour cherry (other then 'North Star' and the 'Carmine Jewel' hybrid cherry)? I have room for another dwarf sour cherry - would you recommend P. cerasus cv. 'Evens/Bali' or another dwarf sour cherry? Or is 'North Star' and 'Carmine Jewel' enough that another would not add much?

    4. What is the advantage of growing native Prunus pennsylvanica (pin cherry; fire cherry), if you are in a zone where sour cherries and bush 'cherries' are suited for cultivation?

  • don555
    12 years ago

    I don't see any point in growing pin cherries if you can grow sour and bush cherries. As for Evans/Bali, I think you won't find it any different than North Star, except a bit hardier. Something that might be of interest to you though is that new line of sour cherries bred and released in 2004-2006 by the University of Saskatchewan. Hardier and higher sugar content than other sour cherries, they grow as upright 6-8 foot bushes. These were only available in Canada over the past few years, but I think they are now becoming available in the U.S., but you'll likely have to do some searching for a suppier. I can't figure out how to post a link, so here's the web address, you'll have to cut and paste:
    http://www.fruit.usask.ca/dwarfsourcherries.html

  • don555
    12 years ago

    This thread is very long and I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but the bush cherries seem attractive to jackrabbits. I have 4 young bush cherries (Carmine Jewel and 3 from the new Romance series) and I see a rabbit paid a visit to my suburban backyard last night and hopped around the yard inspecting all the bushes. Seems it only was interested in the bush cherries (plus a minor nibble on a saskatoon). Minor damage, but I just spent the past hour wrapping chickenwire and whatever other stuff I could dig out of the shed to try to discourage Mr. Bunny if he comes back tonight. Next fall I'll rig up some sturdier winter protection.

  • heliprincess
    11 years ago

    My sister and I planted Carmine Jewel Cherries at least 5 years ago. Hers is in Utah, zone 4 or 5 I guess. I am in Wyoming zone 3. Both shrubs are healthy and about the same size but neither has ever bloomed.

    The Utah one is on the East side of a privacy fence in quite a bit of shade. The Wyoming one is in full sun in a kind of exposed location at the top of a slope. My shrub looks very similar to my sister's in size and shape and but no blooms yet on either one! Mine has been through some minus 25 degree temperatures.

  • don555
    11 years ago

    It seems odd to me that your plants aren't getting any flowers after 5 or more years. I planted one, about 1.5 or 2 feet tall, in May 2011, and here it is one year later in May 2012. Not the greatest photo of flowers since it was mostly still in bud, but you can see some open flowers and there are 50-100 buds yet to open. Despite it being young and getting hit by marble-size hail this summer, it still produced about a half-dozen ripe cherries. This plant has taken temperatures as cold as you describe. Were yours tiny when you planted them and are now getting to the size of the one in the photo below? Or are they bigger plants that are for some reason stubborn to flower?

  • Konrad___far_north
    11 years ago

    Yes,..odd I would say after 5 years, unless it was a tiny plug when you put it in, then I would say give it another year or so.

    Or,.. lots of time US nurseries graft them to another rootstock, this could delay flowering.

  • brotherjake
    11 years ago

    The Bali cherry is supposed to produce an insane amount of fruit once mature. Bill McKentley from St Lawrence told me that his produce more fruit in relation to its size than any other fruit. He also told me that they are sweet enough to eat off of the bush. Northstar are not that sweet and won't produce nearly as many cherries. I can't vouch for flavor on either, but Bill said that they all love to munch the Balis off of the bush. Combining Bali and a Romance cherry into jam might be the best of both worlds. Tons of fruit from the Bali with some flavor from the Romance. I have one of each growing, but they are still young. I'll be interested to see if they bloom. If not by the third year, I'll probably pull it. Space is too limited for slackers.

  • Konrad___far_north
    11 years ago

    OK brother, then you can tell Bill McKentley from St Lawrence not to steal names, tell him that Bali is Evans Cherry, ...then we all know what everybody is talking about.

    Evans is still the best in the overall production and size, most vigorous.

  • don555
    11 years ago

    Evans... Bali...I've never understood why it wasn't called the "Borward" cherry since it had been growing at her place for 53 years before it was "discovered" by Evans. Or maybe the "Edmonton" cherry?

    I tend to think that once the new bush cherries from the U of Saskatchewan breeding program get better known that they will eclipe the Evans cherry in popularity. I think U of Saskatchewan's 40 years of dedicated cherry breeding work is likely to produce better varieties than a random extra-hardy variety that turned up in an Edmonton-area garden. I guess time will tell.

    I did a side-by-side taste test last summer of Evans vs Cupid (a Sask. bush cherry) and I prefered the Cupid. Taste is unique though, and the Evans cherry is still the hardiest and best tree cherry (as opposed to the bush form of the Saskatchewan cherries). They are all good though, the more the merrier!

  • intotheark
    11 years ago

    unfortunately our evans died back a couple seasons back,
    but has been growing strong since and hopefully will be fruiting again this season

    best fresh eating cherry was the lutowka
    (talk about name stealing, it is sometimes called 'rose cherry')
    this one i will try air-layering this year

    i like the carmine jewel because it has the least breeding,
    and is probably off the boat, the same as its russian parents

    nankings were very sweet and plentiful this year,
    great for processing (mixed nanking juice with sandcherries and tart cherries for an excellent spread)

  • poncirusguy6b452xx
    10 years ago

    What about meteor sour cherry. They can go down to -50 F. mine did very well but only grew on its terminal bud. All other buds produced flowers. I finally ended up with branchless twigs up to 3 feet long with only a few leaves at the end and the tree starved to death. Otherwise the tree was very productive with good cherries.

    Is the U of S cherry any better

    Thanks for your input.

    This is were my U of S cherry trees will reside. Click link

    Here is a link that might be useful: https://plus.google.com/photos/111099372377958308731/albums/5864651368775846321?banner=pwa&authkey=CI763rvAj8eLAg

  • don555
    10 years ago

    About 20 years ago I planted a sour cherry that was either a Meteor, North Star or Montmorency. They say the mind goes first, but it was one of those, and I think they are all pretty similar. Anyway, it was definitely not hardy to -50F (-46C). It did okay for a few years, produced a few cherries one year, then completely died one winter, with minimum temps more like -35F to -40F (-37 to -40C). I subsequently grew Evans (Bali) and it did much better but eventually winterkilled severely so I removed it about 10 years ago. Since 2010 I have been growing another Evans in the same location as the original Meteor, and so far it has survived to the tip each winter and provided some fruit in 2011 and 2012. I think the Evans cherry is most likely a hardy seedling of Meteor/Montmorency/North Star.

    Here in zone 3, the U of S bush cherries are supposed to be hardier than Evans, and much hardier than meteor. I recently (2011) planted 4 varieties of U of S bush cherries, plus an Evans tree cherry (2010). This past winter all survived to their tips so I can't really say if there is a difference in hardiness. But of the U of S cherries, my impression is that the Carmine Jewel was the least hardy, in terms of holding onto many leaves during last fall's early freeze, then leafing slightly slower this spring. Of the other varieties I'm growing (Cupid, Juliet and Romeo), so far I'm most impressed with Cupid, but all bushes are young, planted in spring 2011 (now 4' or 5' tall).

  • northernmn
    10 years ago

    I have an Evans about 3 ft tall, (1) Northstar 6.5 ft, and (6) Carmine Jewel about 2.5 ft each. The Northstar has been gradually blossoming this year. I was surprised that they didn't all open at the same time.

    I know from last year, the bugs and the birds like these cherries. I probably will just let the birds take them this year. Hopefully, 2 years from now, they won't be able to eat the whole crop when all 8 are producing. That's when I'll want to spray for bugs I guess. What are you cherry growers doing for a bug spraying program?

  • poncirusguy6b452xx
    10 years ago

    I live much farther south where heat is close to being a problem. The insects are in a good balance with few outbreaks. Are these cherry trees worth the much higher price than a montmorency or a northstar, I can grow both. The meteor is so slow growing that I will be dead before a replacement will fruit in quantity.

    As for birds, they much prefer mulberries over cherries if they will grow that far north. I am also going to guess that your day light might be around 20+ hours. per day.

    Can you plant trap plants and poison them so the insects don't eat your cherries. click below to see what I grow in my garden. much will live up their but some wont

    I still need another cherry tree or two

    Here is a link that might be useful: https://plus.google.com/photos/111099372377958308731/albums/5864651368775846321?banner=pwa&authkey=CI763rvAj8eLAg

  • don555
    10 years ago

    I've encountered no problems with bugs here in central Alberta, but birds do seem to have an appetite for my cherries. Bird netting seems the best solution to me, and it's much easier to wrap a mature 6' to 8' bush, then a mature 15' tree.

  • gracelouise9
    8 years ago

    My Carmine Jewel is 5 years old & blooming very heavily right now (March 25th, very mild winter this year) in Portland Oregon.


    It bloomed for the first time last year (in April or May) - just about a half dozen flowers that produced no cherries.

    (Got it as a rooted twig, about 6" tall, from Gurneys. It had a tough life for first few years - encounter with weed whipper, competition from grass. It's about 5' tall & wide but would be over 6" if I did not prune it. Attractive shrub.)

  • Konrad..just outside of Edmonton Alberta
    8 years ago

    It might still be young,..give it another 2 years and if it doesn't set then it
    looks like it's not a cherry this far south. I know Evans hardly produces in just a little further north then you. Please report back.


  • Konrad..just outside of Edmonton Alberta
    8 years ago

    Don, I noticed all your pictures are missing in various threads, you might want to contact Houzz.


  • Sherwood Botsford (z3, Alberta)
    8 years ago

    I can see a couple other alternatives:

    1. You don't have any pollenators. Bees are certainly major ones, but go watch and see what comes. If you have no bugs there are two things you can do: Set up your yard to have something bees like from early spring to fall. Willow and poplar provide pollen very early.


    The second thing is to build bee hotels. (Google it.) It's not just honey bees. There are many kinds of bees that either don't make colonies or only make short lived ones.


    2. There is some form of stress on the plant. You may see this if you get swelling of the base of the flower as if it's starting to form a fruit, but after getting to 3/16" or so they all drop off.

  • Konrad..just outside of Edmonton Alberta
    8 years ago

    No pollinators needed on sour cherries,..they're self fertile, the south is known for low fruit set, not enough chill/freeze hours.


  • Sherwood Botsford (z3, Alberta)
    8 years ago

    My bad. Pollenizers. Still need a bug to move pollen. Just doesn't have to come from a different cultivar.

  • Konrad..just outside of Edmonton Alberta
    8 years ago

    Well yes, all helps, wind can move pollen also, watch for night time temperature, lots of aborted fruit set when you have frost or cold/rain during flowering period.

  • dkvernon74
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    I live in southern Ok. Iplanted 2 carmine jewell cherries in 2010 . they bloomed the first year. the next year they made a few cherries .They have made each year. this year we've had record rainfall the last 24 days and bad storms. i picked 4 gallons of cherries off 1 tree. then i cleaned up about that many that had split and were bruised. they have never had this problem before. wish i had planted more..

  • wayne
    8 years ago

    dkvernon how large have your cherry trees grown too, mine is about 7'x7', just curious with the longer growing season that you have.

  • gracelouise9
    8 years ago

    Update on my Carmine Jewel in Portland, Oregon that I reported was finally blooming profusely a couple months ago:

    Unfortunately, just after the the bush set hundreds of tiny cherries, just as another Portlander with a CJ cherry said was his yearly experience, all the fruit-bearing branches developed a bacterial infection & died. Only 3 or 4 cherries were apparently spared (so I may at least get a taste this year).

    The rest of the bush still looks very healthy, as always.

    According to the person who warned me that this is the fate of these cherries here, he only succeeded in getting cherries when he coated all the flowering stems with some sort of adhesive.

    I've looked for treatments that might prevent this problem & found nothing beyond many frequent applications of copper, which is likely more bother & toxicity that I'll willing to deal with.

    Unless i run into some better idea, I'm thinking of trimming the bush way back & then covering it with plastic right before it blooms & leaving the plastic until well after fruit set. The idea is that keeping it dry may impede the bacterial infection.

    If anybody here has any other possible low toxicity solutions to this problem, is appreciate reading about them.

    If covering the bush doesn't work, I'll probably chop it down & plant something else (maybe one of the sour cherries that have good track record in this area).

    Gracelouise9


  • gracelouise9
    8 years ago

    Noticing that alcan_nw, who alerted me to the frustrating flowering stem infection, didn't know whether the infection is bacterial or fungal.


    It looks like the bacterial infection of cherries called blossom blast. But it did harm at all to the rest of the tree.

    On the chance that it is fungal, I'm going to give half the tree a couple sprays with that common bacterial anti-fungal spray (sorry I've forgotten the name) which has worked very well on my cox orange pippin tree.

    (Another suggestion from this from someone I'm not sure had tried it is Maxicrop. Maybe I'll add that to experiment.)

  • Konrad..just outside of Edmonton Alberta
    8 years ago

    Sounds like you have a good plan going, Grace.
    Seems all wet region's have a problem growing these, [without sprays] especially plums and cherries.


  • gracelouise9
    8 years ago

    Plums & other cherries I've grown here in Portland have not had that problem. Maybe the CJ just blooms too early, prompted by our mild winters. My surefire sour cherry bloomed about 10-12 days after the CJ this year, and it wasn't afflicted with the infection the CJ acquired.

  • alcan_nw
    8 years ago

    The results of mine in Portland last season were good as a result of the adhesive which this year did not work at all on CJ or any of the fruits this year that had worked last year. I had found that the adhesive, all it did was change the bloom period to later. This year "later" means the delay put bloom into a rainy week.

    If it is really important of having these work here you need to keep plants and in particular blooming protected in every year and as much as possible because after a couple years of infections during bloom it becomes systemic for CJ. I have the later blooming Surefire and that one can last unprotected for longer (have mine alive for 15 years) and many branches every year die out as well. They sure put out a good fight in the case of Surefire to keep at least a couple branches producing every year.

  • gracelouise9
    8 years ago

    Oh dear so my surefire is doomed to catch this too!

    The infection seemed completely limited to the blooming branches on the CJ. Right now it looks gloriously healthy.

    (Think I'm going to give up on growing cherries.)

  • alcan_nw
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Cherries vary one kind to another on resistance. In our area research at Mt Vernon WA has listed recommended ones more well suited. I went for that which is why I had long ago went with Surefire and the sweet cherry Early Burlat. Over the years my Burlat had been as disease free as the Japanese types of flowering cherries (shirofugen, prunus osima zakura etc.) And superior to others in my neighborhood. One main problem is the flowers bloom to early on the hill heights area in Vancouver WA (above Portland) and even though the bloom is rain resistant the bees are not pollinating during poor conditions and thus little fruit. I must hand pollinate.

    Other than the above remedy of selecting the right ones and about later bee friendly blooming ones you could try the idea of hand pollinating. I always set fruit on Burlat from Van cherry from my little greenhouse. In your case a Burlat flower from one you could graft to CJ tree could be dried indoors, possibly store it in fridge for a few days, and applied to CJ flowers.

    Even though nothing that I know of can be found to spray on to prevent infections you can still "wait and see". By that I mean to get your tree to over about 5 years of age because age 2-4 is the most prone years according to tests done West of the Cascades in Oregon.

  • Patrick Gallagher
    7 years ago

  • Patrick Gallagher
    7 years ago

    I just planted one here in NW Indiana in early July. Bugs are attacking my newly planted plum trees but this guy is unaffected.

  • wayne
    7 years ago

    I get black aphids on mine, they do no real harm but new growth looks crappy. Nice size plant, it will have some suckers in a year or two, I just mow over them.

  • kingskawn
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    On what rootstock is it grafted on?

  • Konrad..just outside of Edmonton Alberta
    7 years ago

    Not grafted...on their own roots.

  • Sherwood Botsford (z3, Alberta)
    7 years ago

    Production is by tissue culture. Usask has licensed various labs. I've been getting mine from Prairie Tech in Bonnyville. I vaguely recall that if you have the space and time, you can use stool bed techniques too. But they are COPF and so you owe them 50 cents or so per copy if you want to stay legit.

  • ubro
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    This website Canadian Plant Breeders Rights is very good and lists all the plants in Canada that are currently under protection. Click on the variety name and it will take you to a page that lists all the named cultivars that breeders rights have been applied for. Click on the name of the variety and it will tell you when the rights were applied for, when they expired, or if they were withdrawn. Plants that are not listed do not hold valid PBR.

    I contacted the Canadian Plant breeder site inquiring about breeding protection for other plants I am crossing, and they sent a letter back that said people are allowed in Canada to propagate plants for their own use even if they are protected. So if I created a plant I could only control commercial production not personal divisions.

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