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Calling Dr Tapla?
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Posted by giants_2007 10 PSL FL (My Page) on Sat, Jan 30, 10 at 10:42
I know you prefer a soilless mixture and I agree it has many strong points. My question is what would composted cow manure be considered soil base or not?
Sal |
Follow-Up Postings:
RE: Calling Dr Tapla?
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- Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on
Sat, Jan 30, 10 at 11:49
| Hello, Sal. I greatly favor soilless media for conventional container culture, and manure IS soilless, but all soilless media are far from being created equal. There is absolutely no benefit (to the plant) to be derived from manure that you cannot get from a capful or teaspoon of one of a number of micro-nutrient preparations and some soluble fertilizer. When you imagine a scale of 1-10, with 1 being growing in the ground/garden/beds and 10 being hydroponics, conventional container culture is about a 7-8. IOW, it's much closer to hydroponics than it is to growing in the ground. The best way to look at container culture nutrition is with the idea that you/we are responsible for providing all the nutrients essential to growth at a favorable level/concentration and in a favorable ratio to each other. Forget about the soil as a nutrient source. Manure is composed of fine particles that break down very quickly. These particles clog the micro-pores in soils that are essential to good root health/function/metabolism. It is impossible to use manure or compost in conventional containers as a significant fraction of the soil and get everything (growth/fruit/vitality) from your plant it is genetically capable of producing within the limits of other cultural influences. The reason is that soils with a significant presence of manure/compost/topsoil ..... any extremely fine particulates that break down quickly, will support a significant amount of perched water (read about the science here), which occupies a saturated layer of soil at the bottom of containers. Often, with soils comprised of a high % of fine particulates, the perched water table (PWT) will be found to be greater than 6" in depth after a thorough watering. While this may not kill plants outright, it does cause the plant to go through a cycle of root death and regeneration that is extremely expensive to the plant in terms of energy outlay and lost growth potential. Roots do not die en mass, they die incrementally, with the finest of roots - the 'hair' root, the workhorses of the plant succumbing first. If anaerobic (airless) conditions persist, as they usually do, root death occurs in increasingly larger roots. The plant, growing under considerable stress, is then required to replace the lost rootage when favorable amounts of air return to the soil, using energy that would certainly have been channeled by the plant toward an increase in leaves, fruit, branch extension, or other biomass. This effect is not limited to only soils comprised of materials like manure or compost. For the reasons listed, most bagged soils are not good choices for long term plantings, especially if you are more interested in maximizing vitality than in the convenience of simply opening a bag. If you are making your own soils, approach it from the perspective of long term aeration. Use ingredients that are large enough to ensure excellent aeration and drainage, a nonexistant or at least a minimal PWT, and that are also durable enough to ensure this property remains an intrinsic feature of the soil for the intended life of the planting (between full repots). Relying heavily on materials of appropriate size like pine or fir bark and other inorganic ingredients like Turface or calcined DE (diatomaceous earth), Haydite, crushed granite or cherrystone, pumice ..... will help you build a very productive soil Al |
RE: Calling on Dr Tapla?
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- Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on
Sat, Jan 30, 10 at 11:53
| Sorry, the embedded link didn't work. I must have messed up somehow. Find the science behind why soils of fine particulates are problematic in container culture at the link below. Al |
Here is a link that might be useful: Click me for more soil science.
RE: Calling Dr Tapla?
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Thanks Al for the in depth explanation. Most bagged potting mixes are comprised of large percentage of sphagnum peat moss some list 70-85% the rest perlite wetting agents and whatever. I have made my own mix using compost,turface,small pine bark,and perlite and sphagnum peat moss. Did I just defeat the purpose of what you said and if so I will change on next re-pots Thanks again Sal |
RE: Calling Dr Tapla?
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- Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on
Sat, Jan 30, 10 at 17:49
| You can make a very good mix from the ingredients you mentioned, and you can also make a poor mix. You'll want the largest fraction of the soil to be larger particles. Pine bark like you see in this picture
would be an excellent source of material to act as the base on which to build a very good soil, like the one in the middle of the picture. If you combine about 70% bark with 15% each of perlite and peat or compost, you'll have a soil that holds little or no perched water and will remain serviceable at least as long as it's prudent to go between repots. An even more durable soil can be made
by combining equal parts of screened pine or fir bark screened Turface or calcined DE crushed granite in grower size or #2 cherrystone gypsum For the soil you're making with the ingredients you listed, if you keep the total volume of fine particulates (peat, compost, manure) to 15% or less of the total volume of soil, you can't go too far wrong. Al |
RE: Calling Dr Tapla?
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Al Thanks again that is exactly what I did on the next re pots using pine bark as biggest percentage and cutting back on compost and sphagnum peat also increased the turface and perlite. Now in time I can actually see for myself the difference. Also turface MVP is not available but I can get the Red do you know if that will work before I spend any more money Sal |
RE: Calling Dr Tapla?
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- Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on
Sun, Jan 31, 10 at 11:32
| Turface is widely available in FL. Are you in Port St Lucie? Perhaps I can use some of my resources to help you in your search. The 'red' product is too fine. Al |
RE: Calling Dr Tapla?
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Thanks Al I am in Port St Lucie.I was using Diamond Pro red which has a good grit size. The tuface website does state that the red is smaller grit but more uniform. The Lesco dealer told me they would have to order a whole pallet and they only have the red on an individual bag basis any help would be appreciated Sal Thanks again on the great advise on the mix I can feel the difference in my hands and eyes |
RE: Calling Dr Tapla?
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| Sal, I have more MVP than I will ever use. You pay freight, I can send you a good portion of a bag. 30# will probable cost about $10 to ship. I think my 50# bag was $9.95. I have a limitless supply and don't mind helping out a fig friend. |
RE: Calling Dr Tapla?
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Jason that is very kind of you. I still have almost a full bag of Diamond Pro Red left and should be plenty to finish my re-pots. Pro source One near me closed and their other local is 60mi south. No biggie as I travel down that way often but I wanted to try the Turface so I will be making some calls. I'm sitting on so much Perlite and spag peat I could do 50 more I just wanted some for back up just in case I decide on more figs lol FYI Walmart by me had pine bark mulch purple bag and the bark size was smaller then normal worked out great about dime to nickel size more uniform then past going to get a few extra bags Just in case Sal |
RE: Calling Dr Tapla? Turface MVP
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I just found a dealer about 40mi from me thanks to all again Sal |
RE: Calling Dr Tapla?
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| just wanted to say: be careful of pine mulches. some of the new ones have "weed block" additie which is toxic to humans, and will kill some fruits, veggies and flowering edibles. |
RE: Calling Dr Tapla?
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| Good tip.....does it state so on the bag when it does contain weed block? Dan |
RE: Calling Dr Tapla?
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| yes, but as I found with one brand back in 2008, it is NOT always clear. the words "weed block" were in very small print on the front. then there was the fine print on the back of the large back in a font so small i had to use a magnifying glass which said "wear gloves with this product. do not put near edibles such as fruits and veggies and some ornamental flowers. always wash hands thoroughly after". the product was Vigoro's "Premuim mulch with weed stop". they told me to destroy all plants it came in contact with, and not eat anything that was around the bed where it spilled. i posted more info about the experience over in the GA Gardener forum, in this thread. |
RE: Calling Dr Tapla?
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Jason thanks for the heads up I just inspected both bags and it does say helps control weeds and improves drainage but no added ingredients such as weed block or any thing other than pine bark so that should be ok Sal |
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