When you put it in soil, did you use a container with clear walls so you can watch the root development?

I have cuttings drop leaves all the time - it's not terribly uncommon. If the terminal bud is still green, your cutting is still viable. Your cutting has a limited amount of stored energy, and it just wasted a lot of stored energy putting out roots that perished and leaves that perished.

I wouldn't suggest repotting it. But, possibly the best info I've ever gotten off any of the two main fig forums is to always start your cuttings in clear cups so you can track the rooting process - that way what's going on under the soil isn't a mystery.

Do you have high soil porosity ? I root a fair number of cuttings in water and their roots are tender & breaks off easier. I think Tapla mentioned this before. I notice water rooted cuttings failure or poor growth is a result of soil mix packing too tight.

Satellitehead suggestion on repotting is a worthwhile consideration & certainly go with clear cups.

There is no advantage to keeping your fig cuttings in water much beyond the point to where you first see root "initials". Roots that form in water are not the same as those roots that form in an airy/humid environment or in a rooting mix environment. When rooting by water, I would suggest you move your cuttings from your water container into an airy potting mix as soon as you see definite root initials forming near a bud node or section joint.

Dan

I have rooted cuttings in water in the past, mostly lattarula (or rola), and what worked for me was putting the cuttings, once rooted, into clear cups of perlite. With this particular cultivar I had about 70% success. However I dont root that way any more.

Ejp3- I have to ask how do you root your figs? I have been rooting them in water for as long as i can remember, and it has always seemed to work, granted I have never tried a kadota, However please explain how you do it.
Thanks
J.

I have tried the baggie paper towel method, as well as directly into perlite, or sphagnum moss, or a combination. For me the only 2 fig cultivars that did well in the vase of water have been latarulla, and Brooklyn white. Sicilian black was probably the worst using water. Like others on the forum I experiment with numerous methods.

I think you could probably put Lattarula in a cup full of metal BBs and it would probably root like crazy. That is the most vigorous rooting, forgiving cutting I've ever seen. Conadria was really good for me this year also, but Lattarula...holy cow. It's like mother nature stuffed a box of spaghetti in every couple inches of branch. ;)

And about rooting...

I was chatting with someone about this earlier about rooting, watering, moisture, etc.

The biggest help for me with rooting was using clear cups (mentioned that earlier) so I could see what was going on under the soil - previously, I just used any old pot or cup I could find. Never again!!! Previously, I also just used whatever potting mix I could find, but had no clue to worry about the moisture level, whether it was soilless or not, whether a wetting agent was present, etc.

Things are working out pretty well. It's clear there's a million potting mixes you can use, I am coming out the other side of my trials realizing that the amount/stability of temperature, and the level of moisture and air getting to the cuttings is a thousand times more important than the mix you're putting them in. The potting mix is secondary, in my opinion. Someone will no doubt tell me I'm full of it! But I think moisture/air level is the most important thing for cuttings, followed by the stability and level of temperature/humidity, least important is the mix you use (unless it affects one of the aforementioned items greatly).

I think the lack of oxygen present just sticking a cutting in water is detrimental to the roots, I speculate that the lack of direct air around the roots creates a weaker root more prone to breakage. But I'm not a scientist, don't have a degree in agriculture or anything. I just know that once I finally got a hold on my moisture and temperature levels and got them stable, I got roots - and lots of good ones - in a very short period, regardless of what I had them potted in.

FWIW, I gauge my moisture levels without a meter, and think this can be done easily without one if you use clear-wall cups. Its really subjective - I judge based on how the mix reacts to pressure on the wall of the cup. Like, when the mix sticks to the wall of the cup (way too wet), or it adheres to itself (borderline moist/too wet), or it looks fluffy like cake which stays put but and sticks to nothing, really (perfectly moist). You'll know it's too dry if the mix is lighter colored and moves freely about in the cup. I prefer using a mix that you can see is getting dryer (darker potting mix).

Take it or leave it.

From my research..........

STABILIZE THE TEMPERATURE of any closed fig rooting environment and you will SIGNIFICANTLY increase your moisture control. This in turn will decrease the likelihood of mold/rot issues, decrease new bud & root growth damage, and increase your success rate of producing viable trees. As I've stated many times before and first pointed this out in the Improved Baggie Method........providing stabilized temperatures to one's rooting environment is a KEY significant improvement to the baggie method that will help one attain a consistently high success rate. A stabilized temperature trumps other control variables in a closed rooting environment.

My research is quite clear on this.....
Take it or leave it.

Dan

Dan, I understand what you're saying, but please hear me out for a sec. I hope Al and others will read this too, maybe take my words into consideration when giving advice. I think a lot of the veterans forget what it's like to be a newbie, and don't always realize the way folks will interpret things you say, and I think some portions of rooting methodology are being emphasized while other parts - the parts that screw people up the most - aren't.

Bottom line: I think everyone wants to be a "master rooter", and to do that, many folks feel they need to replicate the "master's" environment, right down to the brand name of the products used. Many of us are guilty of this, both pushing the product and trying to buy it, sometimes at outrageous cost and great length. Reality is, many people who read this forum eat up some of the suggestions from master rooters because they want to be a master at rooting, and think this will be possible using the exact same products and methods that the "masters" use. Problem is, there is not enough explanation behind the method, not enough stress on the most important parts of the method, and too much stress placed on the actual products used.

I personally feel like someone should come up with a rooting method which breaks out the steps to rooting, and explains them thoroughly, and prioritizes each step. Maybe this is something folks like you, me, Al and others could collaborate to knock out?

I believe these are the components that should be covered in such a method (in order of 'most importance' to 'least importance'):

- How to monitor your rooting progress (clear bags, clear cups)
- How to know how much water is too much (moisture control)
- How to control temperature and humidity in your environment (using a box and mechanical/digital/human observation gauges)
- What components/characteristics to look for in a potting mix (chunky, good air flow, starter nutrients, no soil)

I understand why you push temperature stabilization, but stabilizing your temperature cannot "fix" overwatering/overdampening in the baggie, nor in the cup. I think that when you consider all of the discussion of rot and mold that regularly come up in rooting discussion, overwatering/overdampening is possibly the largest issue for most people getting started that moisture should be pushed as the #1 factor to successful rooting (aside from clear cups), from start to finish. Specifically, I think the running theme stressed during rooting should be "constant moisture with good surrounding air to prevent water saturation" (very, very low moisture, moderate to high air levels).

Instead, people signing on and reading the forum(s) see arguments about how to get "monster roots" by using some magical blend of potting mix, which may or may not be available in your area, or, if available in the same packaging, may be totally different due to the regional practices of companies such as Fafard, Ferti-Lome, Miracle Gro or Premier Horticulture. I feel like the responsible thing to do is give folks an indication of good properties a mix should have and stress the key ingredients that should be in a good starting mix, but it seems like one person cites the name of a product, and newbies and veterans alike go on rabid wild goose chases for this super-secret mix that is going to make them a super-rooter overnight, and provide huge monster roots. The "UPM gold rush" is a perfect example of this lately, and I've been just as guilty of it as anyone else.

I appreciate all of the insight you and others have provided because it has amplified my rooting success and understanding to an infinite degree in a very short period (considering the time many veterans have invested). The one thing that bothers me now, in retrospect, is seeing points that get pushed way too much in write-ups and discussions on forums when they have far too little bearing on the end result. Things that get pushed too far (in my mind) are the precise brand and ratio of mix to use and how to adequately control and stabilize temperature, while the most important things, like how to know 'how much water' is 'too much water' are not talked about in great enough detail, or pushed to the level of importance that is really necessary for such a crucial step.

I also think everyone should *stop* focusing on whether it's better to use Pro-mix, UPM, or 3B mixes with coarse perlite instead of fine perlite or Turface or sphagnum, and instead just say, "Look - go find a potting mix that is soil-less, has a wetting agent, perlite, and contains sphagnum, pine, humic acids/humates or other starter nutrients, and mix it 50/50 with some kind of big, chunky material like Turface MVP or perlite, and you will have a superb mix for rooting". Reality is, if someone can put a cutting in a glass of water and make it root with good success, this really downplays the importance of your mix (maybe even moisture levels). Just tell people to use some light, fluffy mix with small, round chunks in it to promote air, and maybe people new to rooting would stop thinking the mix is most important aspect to get "monster roots".

I believe from reading other people's experiences that most rooting environments folks will use are inside the home, and even with fluctuating temperatures inside the home from day to night during the colder seasons, as long as my moisture/air levels are good, roots will start and rot will not. Granted, there are *ideal* temperatures you *could* hold that would enhance the speed of rooting. There are *ideal* ways to heat the soil more than the tops to encourage rooting vs. shooting. But the reality is, it is not a necessity for rooting; however, getting your moisture/air levels good *is* a necessity for proper rooting with no rot and no mold.

I also firmly believe that any human being should be able to root inside the warmth of their own home - even my parents, who keep their house at 58-60F all winter long. As humans, we like to have a comfortable environment similar to plants, so it works out well. I think the process is being over-mystified. Rooting is not a black art, or magic. I think it is safe to say, "If I can do it with good success, anyone can. It's not a dark art or black magic!"

Just my 2¢, from a novice, who was a total newbie to such defined practices not too long ago.

(Take it or leave it)

Good intentions of course but I just want remind you that are people here and in the propagation forum that just use plain water. Just pointing this out because while I agree with everyone about things such as optimum moisture content and air flow when rooting cuttings in soil/solid there exists a set of successful rooters that essentially super saturate with water and have no air flow.

There's also 'misters' and 'cloners' that have good success rates.

It seems much more of personal decision based on effort required and facilities. Even for myself: If I order some cuttings over the internet I consider them valuble and want to use a system with a good success rate. If I am taking a dozen cuttings from local trees a 50% success rooting them is plenty. Bottom line for me is 'think cheap and lazy.' I hate to waste a single thing I pay for but if I got it for free by my own effort I will stay with the free/cheap theme rooting it. I also hate to waste others efforts so when someone gives me a cutting I do everything I can to insure it grows.

Rick

Anyone who reads any of my posts should know that I choose my words very carefully. In my former career I have developed and written literally hundreds of very technical and complicated procedures that others under my supervision had to exactly follow to ensure they obtained reliable and predictable results while using it. If there is one thing that I have learned......the devil is in the DETAILS of a written procedure and how closely it is followed. Those that exactly follow a well written method will get predictable results.....change or substitute any part of the method and results can vary widely. If you do not have a procedure in a WRITTEN form where others can follow it, what you have in reality are multiple versions of what each person "THINKS" is the correct procedure....each version can yield differing results.

When a chemist tells you to put acid into water he means to "put the acid into the water". He knows to NEVER add water into strong acids........trust what he tells you. One mixture produces a hot acid/water mix and the other produces a dangerous explosive mixture.

When I write that you should wet your rooting mix with water BEFORE you place it your rooting cups......I literally mean what I wrote. When I say add water "until the rooting mix forms a ball in your hand when you squeeze it"....I literally mean what I wrote. That's how you control the amount of LIQUID water in your rooting mix. If you do otherwise you may get too much water in the mix which causes those documented problems. If I suggest you use COARSE perlite....I literally mean what I wrote. When I say drill holes in the bottom of the cups, put cups on a rack, placed in a plastic bin that is to be opened daily......I mean exactly what I wrote. These "details" allow you to maintain proper air in the rooting environment and prevent the supersaturation of moisture (i.e. relative humidity greater than 100%) in the rooting zone.

I do not see where it helps the novice rooter by providing the reasoning for all of those details......makes it look like fig rooting is more complicated than it really is.

.....bottom line. Anyone reading any of my posts should know that I am very careful about the words that I use in my written suggestions and procedures. Exactly follow what I write and you can exactly duplicate my results. I can guarantee good results. That's the beauty of applying good scientific principles to the rooting process.....it takes it from being just an "art" with varying results to more of a scientific controlled process with a much more reliable end result.

People should use whatever rooting method works best for them in their particular situation. I like methods that are very simple and that turn nearly every single fig cutting into a fully harden-off tree....but that's just me.

Dan

Rick,

I hear what you're saying. The reality is, fig cuttings would probably grow in wet concrete if you tried it, they're that resilient and willing to grow. I agree with Dan's last few words... I think the goal of most folks is to obtain 100% rooting success, and 100% resulting trees to plant, trade or sell using the easiest, most problem-free method possible, and if water works in mass production for you, I think that's great!

Dan,

I know it is not clear in reading what I wrote above, but I am not attacking your method, nor the way you write it. I'm trying (in the only way I know how) to impress upon anyone and everyone writing such methods to do two things:

1) Pinpoint common "failure" areas where people screw up; Up above, I ranted about water/moisture not being impressed upon people enough (again - not trying to point out anyone's method in particular). Common failures in this area would be: keeping your paper towel too wet, not squeezing moisture out of your soil, allowing pooled water to touch the bottom of the cup, or watering after placing in the box.

2) Provide limited additional information for who want to understand the "science" behind it. For example, you hear people toss around temperatures, humidity, etc., they will give you numbers, but don't give a simple one-sentence statement about why those temperatures are correct. For example, say the most vigorous root development occured when soil temps reach a steady 60ºF-69ºF, but the natural trigger to start top growth is when the soil reaches 71ºF-75ºF. I just think this kind of information is important to share, so folks understand the what/how/why they each step does what it does.

I work for a huge conditional access corporation, and am stuck in the position where I need to type very detailed instructions explaining how to do things, in the event that I should perish before my time some day. I am also very literal (as you can see from the book-long posts I write). I respect your method greatly, yours is one of three I found the most valid steps in.

I'm just saying - it's like a family recipe. You ever eat an amazing dish and ask someone for the recipe, only to find that maybe all the ingredients and correct proportions are listed, but maybe there is something in the method which isn't explained enough, and it just doesn't come out the same for you? Sometimes it's as simple as having the original chef sit down and watch you as you perform the recipe, so they can see why yours didn't quite turn out the same - in other words, what part of their formula may not have been clear enough for you ;)

Thanks for sharing what you have, it's been a big help.

The factors affecting the rooting of fig cuttings includes: Moisture (both in the right form and in the wrong form), Oxygen (from air), temperature, energy reserves, and the presence (or the lack thereof) of those pesky mold vectors. Good fig rooters know how to manipulate EACH of those factors. Creating a rooting environment that optimizes each of those factors will collectively determine the overall rooting success rate. Good rooters know how to do this......I consider myself to be in this group.

I knew that I was going against conventional wisdom on both of the fig forums at the time I repeatedly posted.......NEVER, NEVER, NEVER use a heating pad or provide any outside heating sources to your cuttings. Rather strive to apply a nice stable, even temperature (room temperature is good)to your rooting environment and you will achieve much better results. This is KEY new knowledge that I have never seen posted before on any of the forums........someone correct me if I am wrong. At the time I was giving this advise we had people putting heating pads both under and on top of their container. Putting baggies in hot automobiles, on top of their computers, on top of their warm refrigerators, near their furnace, on top of their water heaters, etc. I will not rehash all of the advantages that my simple but very effective "improvement" of providing a stabilized temperature brings about to the fig rooting process. Nor will I entertain any discussion about advantages that heating pads bring about in other applications (seed sprouting).

I recently saw a posting on one of the forums where a newbie showed his cuttings in straight perlite. He told us he had placed the cuttings near a baseboard heater. I could clearly see that he damaged his roots by doing so. I did not comment on this post for fear of offending the poster and his great joy and optimism.

If there is one contribution that I want to make to this community is to leave you with this suggestion.....do not UNDERESTIMATE the importance of maintaining a STABILIZED temperature to any closed rooting environment. DO NOT APPLY ANY OUTSIDE HEATING SOURCES to your baggies, rooting cups, or containers and resist the temptation to do so. Clean your cutting using the Dawn AB and dilute Clorox method before you try to root them by any rooting method. Following this simple advise will make you a better fig rooter.

If you are already satisfied with your existing rooting method...just ignore this advise. However, if you desire to improve your rooting method, maybe I have pointed you in an alternate and proven direction.

Dan

Well, I have two Adriatic cuttings that I have followed your method to the letter.

I baggied (storage baggie) them on 1-12-010

We will post the results, as of now, no initials yet.

Cecil

Make sure that your towel or newspaper does not get too dry as this will delay the formation of root initials. Some cuttings need more water for re-hydration than others......for example Marseilles Black VS.

Dan

Dan,
As a matter of fact I have noticed that the paper towel
does dry out faster using the storage bags as opposed to using freezer bags.

Thanks much
Cecil

yep...but they also let more air (oxygen) inside which is a slight advantage to using the storage bags rather than a freezer bag for your baggie rooting environment. Storage bags allow ten times the amount of air to flow inside of the bag than does a freezer bag. A very minor improvement.....but all of these things do add up and can help you become a more successful fig rooter.

Dan

Dan,
I figured because the storage bags let more oxygen in was the reason for the paper towel's drying out sooner.

Cecil

I am a chemist myself. Pharmaceutical R&D mostly. One of the corollaries to Murphy's Law is: Those who try to build idiot-proof systems always underestimate the persistence and ingenuity of idiots.

The chemist thing sometimes makes it hard to turn off my nature. Truth be told I have been looking through my Handbook of Chemistry and Physics to get constant humidity numbers for saturated solutions. *BUT* that is for me. I mean like Dan I have a dislike for anything not in a constant temp bath or environmental chamber for some of the reasons cited i.e. condensation. I don't expect anyone else to go to that extreme.

Let me give an example of technique being situational. Every fall the local trash collection allows people to put tree and brush cuttings out for collection. I happened to drive by someone who had put a ~pickup load of fig tree prunings out for collection while I happened to be driving my pickup truck! OK, I didn't fill it up but I got a decent load of cuttings. Now it doesn't matter how good or successful a particular method is under these circumstances. I am not going to baggie up 50 lbs of cuttings from a fig tree whose variety I don't even know. I ended up sticking them in a 5 gallon bucket with some mix and covered them with a garbage bag.

Likewise I believe this is an international forum. Freezer bags and refrigeration may be the best solution for storing cuttings. Not everyone will have access to a refrigerator with enough room to handle situations like the above. I can't get away with a 5 gallon bucket with 3' long cuttings in my refrigerator either.

I happen to concur with Dan's observations about everything from mold growth to moisture. I am sure it is as near 100% effective as you can get. I am not sure if it is the best advice for every situation. For instance a 7th grader wants to try rooting for a science project and you have them playing with bleach and buying $10-$20 bags of growing mix. Dan's advice is very specific to 90% of the readers here but there is still going to be that 10% outside of the USA or in a situation that doesn't call for the technique. I worry about that 10%.

I participate in a vintage car forum too. We just went through a session where old timers were complaining about new people not using the search function and new users complaining about the number of wrong answers they were getting. It could all be traced to people asking questions w/o giving enough information up front. You would get a question like "Why is my car running rough?" or "Why is my car running hot?" and forum members would volunteer a dozen things that could cause the problem. By definition 11 of the 12 were wrong. This also made using the search function useless since 90%+ of the answers were wrong.

We are in a similiar situation here in that it is assumed the starting point is from exchanging or buying cuttings and space, money, and time is no object.

Rick

Rick,

It's difficult to write with sufficient detail and clarity to a MIXED audience with such different needs and backgrounds. I know that the advice I offer is sound and reliable. However, that advice is free and members are free too to completely disregard it. However, those who try to discredit what I write can expect a lively response. The days of holding my tongue are over.

Given your background, you may appreciate my obsession with a three sigma level of quality control and always striving to improve methods & processes and bringing them into statistical control. I have applied root cause analysis (a scientific tool for those who do not know) in improving some of my fig rooting methods. Application of this technique to my fig rooting has significantly improved my methods. All that technical mumbo jumbo means absolutely nothing to the members of this forum if the methods aren't in fact improved and more reliable. As a well rounded and experienced chemist, I have quite a few tricks up my sleeves that I KNOW those horticulturists out there have not heard of much less even tried.

Someday I may publish some of my research work for those few hard-core fig nuts out there that are interested in such details. Right now I'm having too much fun with my results-driven experiments and not having to justify or report any of my findings to any management or bureaucracy.....something I dreamed about all my working years. I now get to have fun applying the science that I love to the hobby that I love....what could be better than that??

Dan

Rick,

He is an edit of my last post so that it doesn't sound like I am attacking you in the first paragraph.......which I was not. It should have been written as follows:

Given your background, you may appreciate my obsession with a three sigma level of quality control and always striving to improve methods & processes and bringing them into statistical control. I have applied root cause analysis (a scientific tool for those who do not know) in improving some of my fig rooting methods. Application of this technique to my fig rooting has significantly improved my methods. All that technical mumbo jumbo means absolutely nothing to the members of this forum if the methods aren't in fact improved and more reliable. As a well rounded and experienced chemist, I have quite a few tricks up my sleeves that I KNOW those horticulturists out there have not heard of much less even tried.

Someday I may publish some of my research work for those few hard-core fig nuts out there that are interested in such details. Right now I'm having too much fun with my results-driven experiments and not having to justify or report any of my findings to any management or bureaucracy.....something I dreamed about all my working years. I now get to have fun applying the science that I love to the hobby that I love....what could be better than that??

It's difficult to write with sufficient detail and clarity to a MIXED audience with such different needs and backgrounds. I know that the advice I offer is sound and reliable. However, that advice is free and members are free too to completely disregard it. However, those who try to discredit what I write can expect a lively response. The days of holding my tongue are over.

Dan

Hi all,
Almost full four years later, do we have a reliable summary of the indoor rooting chamber method?
What are the ranges of 5 key factors (humidity-air in container above potting medium level, light-quality and quantity, temperature, aeration-water to oxygen ratio, and moisture-water to potting medium ratio)?
There is apparently and ideal level, but also acceptable (low and high) levels for each of the above mentioned conditions within which the fig cuttings will successfully grow both roots and shoots.
My recent search outside of this forum has not returned a complete nor an easy to comprehend findings.
Not specifically for figs but for grape vines and fruit trees (I hope similar enough to figs) the following is what I gathered:
rooting cuttings of deciduous trees reported maximum growth in 25 C -30 C temperature range.
suggested moisture content of potting medium 40%-60%,
Highest amount of root growth was observed at moisture content just bordering that of expelling oxygen and causing rot.
Humidity of the air 85%-95%, Light capable of supporting photosynthesis further helped root development of those cuttings that started leaves before or at the same time roots started.
To those seasoned fig rooting enthusiast that can or have measured any of the above, can you comment the values I posted above?