Hi all According to my discussion with Adriano, there are three varieties of Paradiso fig: Paradiso Bianco Paradiso, and Paradisa Adriano has the three of them in his collection.
AdrianoÂs Paradiso is described as "A brownish red medium to large fig. Second crop has excellent flavor. Good pot plant" which is similar to the Paradiso shown at page 2 of the power-point presentation at http://www.europuglia.it/portal/dmdocuments/minonne_ciit2.pdf
Posted by herman2 6b south n.j. (My Page) on Mon, Mar 24, 08 at 21:32
Pardon Me ,Nude gardener,but to say that Sergio Gallesio,placed an amatorish picture of Paradiso,is ofensive. Sergio Galessio is the most respected European orchardist and horticultor of all times. He compounded Pomona italiana,where all kinds of fruits and vines,can be identified,and everybody takes it as a bench mark. Paradiso he show,it is the best known Paradiso. Of course there are other figs,that are called Paradiso by others,but not him. Hope this will help.
--------------------------------------------------- herman2, you are getting TOO old. please, read my post again. I never mentioned any ones name or any Sergio or his pics. you feel bad because you don't have a real Paradiso and one that you have is like M. Povich's Show; who is the father of this kid because it's different:-)
PN, to whom were you refering when you wrote: "don't rely on someones artistic pics from 100 years ago"??
Gallesio's illustration is the only thing you could have been refering to in the context of this conversation.
You also wrote: "I sit down with old timers..." and seem to value the wisdom of those older than you. Why do you disparage Herman because of his preceived age? (I'm sure you don't know his actual age.) Also if you value the wisdom of the old, why do you discount that of Gallesio (b.1772), who is far older than anyone you've met and talked to?
Hi everyone, I hope this isn't leading to become like a Sal's discussion with who has the real ect ect. I agree with Ottawan, adriano, Joe Morle and Henry. Henry made a very good point that on any fig trees the leaves are different especially when young, but eventually a more dominant leaf shape and texture ect emerges. I have a Paradiso and I know Henry does as well. I had leaves on my paradiso that matched Sergio's pic as well as Henry's. As the tree got older the leaves became more dominant with the early pics of Henry's. I wish I could download a picture to show everyone. As far as all this real this and real that, I want to share a fact with everyone. When I was young in Italy, Hardy Chicago was not HC at all. We called it Mongibello, especially in the area of Sicily it comes from. I come to America and my family asked why did they change the name to Hardy Chicago? Its not even from Chicago, its from Sicily. People just took it upon themselves to Americanize the tree, stripped it of its identity that it had way before America was even a country, and call it what they like. All these names running around that people claim is the true name, isn't. Especially with the Italian varieties, alot of gardeners and people here decided the original name wasn't good enough and said change it, now everyone claims Hardy Chicago is the REAL name. Maybe in America, but theres still people out there who like to leave things be the way they were. Same as the government changing peoples surnames during the immigration times because they couldn't pronounce the original name of the immigrant!!! I believe people should respect what some people are trying to tell them especially if they have a history with a variety of fig, orange, lemon Olive, ect ect. Like I said before, my ancestors were who taught me Italian varieties and I stick with that. I needed different rooting methods that were faster than my relatives way, thats why I originally went on this forum. I agree with nude gardener however in alot of ways as well. I was told as well from an Older relative in Italy there is a couple different Paradiso especially Norther Italy to Southern Italy varieties. Namely two. henry and I have one and the brown Paradiso Adriano has, so there you go. If you want one call Joe Morle or Adriano. Ciao
italiangirl74 , Thank you, Thank you! My English was not good enough to express myself but that's the way I meant what you say. You did it very good. Thanks again.
Hi Maggie (and NG), There have been two main points of contention in this thread that I have noticed:
The first is whether the fig being sold as Paradiso by Joe is the same as the Paradiso of Gallesio. That was quickly resolved based on fruit and leaf descriptions that they are not the same variety, despite bearing the same name. It was further resolved that there are indeed multiple varieties sharing this name, and that's okay.
The second argument was introduced by Nude Gardener who disparaged Gallesio (who, I would point out, is very much an Italian and very old -- qualities valued by you and N.G.) and Gallesio's Paradiso. This argument has no prospect of being resolved as Gallesio is no longer among us to defend himself or his choice of figs.
Hopefully we can continue this discussion and when there is disagreement we will disagree respectively :)
In Gallesio's painting are the two ripe figs depicted the breba fig and main crop fig? I am not familiar with format or convention relating to Gallesio's paintings. Gene, would you please clarify this for me?
Henry, sorry I don't know. Of course those still attached must be fall crop, but those fruits showing the interior could be either or both. The "Paradiso" fig that I got from the elderly Italian guy nearby has a little darker pulp than what Gallesio illustrates -- so it too may not be a match. But I know that pulp color intensity varies from year to year and on local climate too, so who knows.
Joe is selling a tree named Paradiso, which is the same tree I received from a cousin overseas saying the name as Paradiso. There is two people thousands of miles away calling the same tree Paradiso. Henry received his tree from Joe, his tree is just like mine. As for Sergio Gallesio's painting, I personally feel there needed to be a picture of the dominant leaves as well a just one leaf shown. I said before that my Paradiso did share the same leaf shape as Gallesio's painting but it was not the " Dominant' leaf shape. Of all my fig tree's many of them share a few similar leaf shapes, but eventually they grow out and a distinctive tree leaf shape takes over, ex. Negronne and Celeste. Just as an example. This is why I posted before that nurseries need to show the whole tree, not just a fruit or one leaf, especially if the one leaf doesn't really represent the Majority, and you know how we are in America about Majority. There was also a thread a while back by the Serbian poster Radovan, who also argued the look and texture, color ect about the Paradiso. From what he describes, his paradiso is the same as mine, Henry's, and Joe Morle. Well must be off, I have too much to do at the moment, particularly taking my figs out for some sun! Ciao
The two cut figs in the painting surely look different to me. The one to the right certainly appears to have light rose pulp. The one to the lower left has a definite red color but not as dark and intense as the descriptions I've read (and seen). However, if this fig to the lower left in the painting had a slightly darker color red pulp it would be almost identical to George's cut fig in his picture linked above. Anyway, I look forward to having fruit from the trees I have (probably next year).
The issue of leaf shape is a none-starter with me (as an issue) because on my little trees there are several different leaf shapes including some which are virtually identical to Gallesio's leaf.
Has anyone had fruit from the "Paradiso" cultivar sold by figtrees.net? If so, do you have pictures? I am very curious to know if these ripe figs have the characteristics of Maggie's Paradiso. In the absence of pictures of ripe fruit I don't think any conclusions can be reached (about figtrees.net's Paradiso) on the basis of comparing immature leaves on my small plants to a single leaf in Gallesio's painting.
In my mind (pending pictures of ripe fruit) the jury is still out on which Paradiso figtrees.net is selling.
Maggie,
I take it you don't have pictures of ripe fruit from your Paradiso, correct? I would like to see them whenever you can post some. Is the pulp of your Paradiso a dark red? How long have you been growing this cultivar?
Hi Maggie, Yes, you're correct to write that there are different leaf forms on any one fig tree.
The advantage of botanical illustration over photography is that the artist can take distinctive elements of a plant and create a composite picture of them (e.g. showing both flower and mature fruit), whereas the photographn captures only one angle of one moment in time.
In this case I don't know whether Gallesio took care in choosing the most dominate leaf shape to portray, though based on his scientific nature I would say he most likely did.
The comparison between Joe's Paradiso and Gallesio's is not limited to the leaf shape however. Besides illustrating the fruit, Gallesio also wrote a description of the fruit (click on image for link) that leaves no doubt of the distinctions between these two figs, namely the fall crop skin coloration. This does not mean that Joe's fig isn't a good fig, or that his cannot be called a Paradiso. It only means that his is not the same as GallesioÂs fig.
Maggie, The names of americanized figs weren't changed - they were lost. If the original owners knew the names (which many did not), as they were passed down and around, the names just slipped away. When someone (American)noticed that the fig was something special, they gave it a new name: Chicago Hardy, Lyndhurst White, Sal's, etc., etc. Without any clue as to what the original name was, there wasn't another choice. And since these figs have qualities that are valuable, you want to be sure you get the "real" one. It is so easy to get figs mixed up when they get passed around, and hard to straighten things out. Gene is trying to re-attach a "real" name to a specific fig: Gallesio's Paradiso. He thinks it is likely the real thing. I don't doubt that you have a (real)Paradiso too - there are probably several of them from different areas. But the question here - is it Gallesio's Paradiso? If not, it's still a very good fig (as you would expect from a fig called Paradise, LOL). But if it is different, it should be given another name: Maggie's Paradiso, Joe's Paradiso, Sicilian Paradiso?
Back in our old countries, most fig names were (and may still are so) simply known by 'just' the color/shape/taste/area/etc. Heard that some 'same' figs were called 'different' names because of the very diverse area/dialect/customs/etc. but no fancy names...
As for me am I still stuck to UnKown #'s (with a possible cv-type attachment). Someone on this FF suggested giving a new names right away -rather than #'s (cannot find the recent thread). After some more unique fig verification, as best I can, I may just do so.
Sooo, I look forward for a cheap over-the-counter DNA test for a true fig ID. Probably it will never happen in our lifetimes, maybe for the next generation of fig people.
I'm not sure what my point was the other night, either. I should know better than to post when I am tired. I think it is what Fignut and George have stated. The problem with the naming of trees goes back hundreds of years (as is evident by this issue with what Gallesio said vs. what Vallese said), if not more. It is not a case of "Americanizing" anything. Rather it is a case of "localizing". Sure it happens in the U.S. It has happened in Spain, Italy, Greece, Turkey, Iran, etc.
For those who want to continue arguing which is the "real" Paradiso, there was a thread on the forum which described the procedure for naming new varieties. These are internationally accepted standards. Based on these standards, unless Cupani has something different to say or one has some evidence that name was used to describe a particular tree before either of them, Giorgio Gallesio description of 'Paradiso' is the benchmark.
Based on the text associated with the painting, I think the fig with the stalk pointing to the left is the Breba (it more closely resembles his image of Dottato and Fico Monaco which he references in the Breba's description).
Here is a (very) rough translation through Google: I fioroni are long and a thickness mediocre: their skin is green, white picchiettata. The paranchima surrounding the pulp and tour outside of pulp are the same as those of purple fiorone of Dottato: the inside of the pulp is white, veiled in a leggierissimo red and involto a delicate and sweet honey that makes it delicious. They both resemble those of Monaco, which detached from the plant hardly differ.
Figs autumn I have a different form: piccioli fiaschiformi, thin skin, a lovely colourful cereo yellow, white flesh just nuanced red, soft, without dilicata caustic but little flavor. They look like a little Fico Troiano, but are more yellow and longer: the view you would for Pissalutti. Maturano in September and lasts little.
For Italian speakers who wish to interpret, here is the text in its original form: I fioroni sono lunghi e di una grossezza mediocre: la loro buccia è verde, picchiettata di bianco. Il paranchima che circonda la polpa e il giro esterno della polpa medesima sono violacei come quelli del fiorone del Dottato: l'interno della polpa è bianco, velato di un leggierissimo rosso e involto da un miele delicato e soave che gli rende squisiti. Essi somigliano tanto a quelli del Monaco, che staccati dalla pianta quasi non si distinguono.
I Fichi autunnali hanno una forma diversa: sono piccioli fiaschiformi, di buccia sottilissima, colorita di un bel giallo cereo, di polpa bianca appena sfumata di rosso, molle, dilicata senza caustico ma di poco sapore. Essi somigliano un poco al Fico Troiano, ma sono più gialli e più lunghi: alla vista si prenderebbero per Pissalutti. Maturano in Settembre e durano poco.
Sounds logical to me, everyone have a great growing season, it has been real fun. As for those of you who I have spoken to about receiving cuttings from me, I will remember you this year!!!! But please remind me. My time has come to an end. May god bless and all keep well. Ciao. Maggie
Looks like I made out like a bandit. I have one of Joe Morle's Paradisos in the ground and some cuttings of Gene's Paradiso passed down thru Al. In a year or three I can compare them. Now who has that third Paradiso?
I wanted to reopen this post. I got Paradiso from different sources, and wanted to know which is better. Joe's or Gene's? I'm wondering if anyone got any pictures of the different Paradisos?
Bass; I cannot tell you which is better: I have both but only the figtree.net Paradiso bore fruit this year; the Paradiso down from Gene's plant was from this year's cutting.
I CAN tell you that the Paradiso from Figtree.net bears dark fruit when exposed to full sun against a brick wall. The heat definitely brings out color and flavor. The tree was planted late in spring and did not bear ripe fruit until early September, its first year here. Those figs that ripened while it was still hot here were delicious,large, dark and sweet. As the season cooled off the ripened figs became less tasty.
The tree is very vigorous, too. I'm eager to taste the brebas next summer. Ox
George, Your "Gene's Paradiso" fig closely resembles the main crop fig in Gallesio's painting. Does your tree make a breba and if so does it also resemble the Gallesio painting of the breba crop? Richard
I do not recall having any breba (this does not mean it does not produce it). One thing I observed is that the main crop is on the late side; but manage to ripen in time here in the northeast.
mrhappy, I would also like to add that this fig is a very good looking/tasting one, and is one of my favorite/must-have/keeper figs as far as a serious fig collector goes... (Heck just the name Paradiso [heaven] simply implies that!)
LOL; I think I'll just stir the pot a bit. If we are going to be stickler's for names, let's insist that for naming purposes we will call Gene's fig "Gallesio's Paradiso" and the other, the dark Paradiso, "Guiseppe Morle's Paradiso". If we wanted, we could call it "Italiangirl's Paradiso" or as we would have said down home, the "Real Eyetalian Paradiso".
Now, who has that third variety of Paradiso? If Gallesio's and the third are as good as the REP they are a winning group of figs. Ox
From now on I will just call it (my) Paradiso (that came from Gene - a very reputable fig source of mine, I'll like to add).
I do have a second one that came from practically NOWHERE! Just from a few blocks away neighbor. My UNKOWN #9. When asked for a cutting and NAME, he said sure I'll give a cutting, but I do not know the name; it JUST a fig with green skin and red pulp....
For the last 2-3 years these two specimens have been growing side by side, and up to this day I can see no difference, what so ever.
See for yourselves a pic of the 2/1 fruits next to each other, post #17 at 10-1 o'clock on the plate on:
Gorgi: I cannot find your Paradiso on that link; it leads to pictures of Hollier and Smith figs. Am I missing something?
That link does include posts and pictures showing the same variety of fig with different appearances from different locations and potted vs in-ground, but the differences between Gene's Gallesio Paradiso and the REP are too great to be accounted for by differences in climate and planting. I hope to get figs from the Gallesio Paradiso next spring.
We ought to petition UC at Davis to start a DNA service. Anyone have a name and address for whomever runs the fig program there?
Ox, paste the link (the one that can't be clicked) into your browser and lock for post #17 on the right hand side of the page. Currently in my browser it is the second post on the page. Or you can click this link mrhappy 8^)
To put this discussion back on a rational plane, I wonder if anyone has tried to compare the Joe Morle Paradiso to anything Gallesio catalogued?
It is reasonable, I think, to believe that in Gallesio's time he did not have access to every fig in every province of Italy. It is entirely possible that there were several old, established figs called Paradiso that he never encountered. It is also possible that in his day our REP was called something else and he catalogued it under the name of that day. What say you to that idea?
In any event, unless we find that some authority has given our REP another name we simply have two (or three) dissimilar Paradiso figs and we will have to come up with some consensus on a way to distinguish them. Ox
Here's another writer who mentions two Italian 'Paradiso' varieties, note he writes that it bears only the fall crop:
Ruggero Ravasini, "Die Feigenbäume Italiens," 1911, p. 160, "Fico Paradiso bianco, aussen grün und Fico Paradiso nero, aussen rot, in Toscana, bei Neapel, in Apulien und Calabrien vorkommend. Fruchtstände oval, innen intensive rot, einmal tragend, nur die zweite Generation, spätreifend (in Süditalien im Oktober-November), wird nicht caprifiziert. Gute Varietät."
Fico Paradiso bianco, green outside and Fico Paradiso nero, red outside, is found near Napoli, in Puglia and Calabria. Has oval shape, inside itÂs intensive red, bears only once, only the second crop, late ripening (in southern Italy in October-November), isnÂt caprified. Good variety.
Gene, I concur with the "late ripening" description of the Paradiso fig. But I am also happy to say that it does manage to ripen all the fruit just before frost; at least here in NJ.
I would also like to add that (though NOT available now, or for a few more years) Gene's "Paradiso" fig should be available as "DFIC0307" from UC Davis. Way to go Gene! My congrats...
Thanks George. I sent that in a couple of years ago with the intention of sending more of my best varieties that weren't already in the collection. They were polite and thanked me for it -- but indicated that without a phytosanitary certificate that it's virtually impossible for them to accept anything (out of state). So I haven't sent anything else. I would have to go through MD as DC doesn't have a local ag office. Too much bother.
The same person also mentioned that Green Ischia, Fico Verde, and Paradiso are closely related -- and perhaps even the same fig. The abstract of a recent study indicates that diversity of European and Aisan fig population is low. So Davis may need to use more markers to distinguish between varieties than it's currently using.
Gene: Thanks for the addtional information. I have some of your figs and hope to have a few fruit off at least one of them next year. I will be looking forward to a comparison with the REP.
Italiangirl; Can you address the question of Breba's produced by the dark Paradiso that we have? Mine is a first year tree and did not go in the ground until late, so I will have to wait for next year to know if it produces a breba crop. Also, where in Italy do your relatives live? Are they in the region mentioned by Ravasini (Gene's post above?)
Martin, Can't say that I understand most of it either, but this sentence is important:
"These results suggest that the genetic diversity of this fig population is low and that multiple marker utilization is critical to estimate the relatedness of figs at the variety level."
I know from my experience of having my Y-chromosome tested for genealogical purposes, that these tests don't test the entire DNA strand  thatÂd be way too expensive. Instead only a handful of sites are tested for comparison with other DNA samples to judge how closely any two samples are related to each other. The more sites/markers that are tested the higher the reliability of the results, but also more expensive.
What I understand from this abstract, most European and Asian fig varieties are so closely related that it's difficult to distinguish them clearly with current tests -- so testing more markers than is now customary will be necessary.
Thanks Gene for making it more clearer to me. I have read that the fig tree's grown from one area and grown in another area can take on different leaf and fruit shape. If true i wonder if this test somehow in small way might confim that thruout the many many years they went from one oversea's location to another, perhaps why test shows why they are so closely related perha0ps the soils and climates had something to do with this over the many years of cultivation ?
I have seen some posts (cannot remember where?), claiming that some INITIAL DNA reports (by UCD) about some fig varieties being SAME. First name that comes to mind is the Dark Portuguese compared to (what I cannot remember), but WE FIG PEOPLE, know very well that they are different. This is very in line with both Gene's explanation about that 'more genes-markers variables' are needed in the study plus, as I said, not to expect any useful results in my (short) lifetime - hope I am wrong in the last statement...
Gorgi; I think that you have come to the same conclusion as did the writer of that article. If we test only a limited part of the DNA strand it is quite possible that two different figs could have that same part of the DNA but differ widely farther down the line.
To us that means fig DNA testing becomes more expensive and less likely to be widely available soon.
Ciao Ox, sorry it took a couple days to answer your question. I have been busy making Ravioli for Christmas dinner and getting Christmas cookies made, takes alot of time. My cousin who sent the Paradiso, he lives in our hometown of Castel Frentano, ABRUZZI Italy. Still Southern Italy but a little farther north than Puglia which is mentioned, same side of the boot, East side. I had the best tasting figs from this tree. They were later ripeneing in the season, but so delicious. When I talk to Cousin Raffaele, I will ask him about the breba. P.S. My Paradiso figs ( fruit) was differnt each one, some lighter, some darker, they all had the basic Light green with Rust I always call it, others turned completely dark rusty dark without any lightness. All on same tree. Okay Ciao.
As a smoker of pipe and cigs, i often here about cuban cigars being the best , of course legally cannot be bought here in states , but often wonder if the same type of tobacco plant were brought here and grown and grown for many years would the cigar from this plant taste different than one from Cuba and what would be the results of DNA detailed testing be eactly alike , same for a fig , say 2 plants one grown here from known parent plant from another country and parent plant say in Japan were tested after many many years what would the DNA results say exact same in most markers or just closely related? Would love to taste the figs from each tree in a bilnd taste test to see if they tasted similar as well or if i thought they were of 2 different varieties. Just thinking out loud.
Italiangirl: Thanks for your response. LOL, I had the same experience with my Joe Morle Paradiso. Some figs got a lot darker than others, but I thought it was just because I did not see them so soon as I saw those that were a little more green in color when I ate them. Those were nice BIG figs, too. Ox
Ciao Ox, My Paradiso produced huge figs as well, absolutely gorgeous, they sure sound like they are the same. Wonder, where did Joe get his from? I know he brings them from Italy, but wonder where, they are so Identical to mine. ciao
I have smoked (exclusively) Cuban cigars since 1995, and I can say without doubt (and there is no bias coming from the "mystique" or taboo of Cuban cigars being "illegal") that their tobacco is definitely the best. If they could just keep good rollers making them it would be cigar utopia (since the "cigar boom" of the 90's Cuban cigars have been plagued with poor and/or inconsistent construction). However, when they get enough experience the rollers hop a boat and make their way to Nicarauga, Honduras or the Dominican Republic where they can earn more money. Anyway, I digress. They have been growing "Cuban seed" tobacco in these other countries for decades, and it still isn't as good. I believe the superior quality of Cuban tobacco is the result of a combination of climate, soil, and having grown the same strains of tobacco for decades or, in some cases, for millenia. I don't know what this has to do with DNA or much less, figs, but you mentioned something that is another of my passions, so there you go :)
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