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girlfromthegarden

Root-pruning/pot size for 'buried' container figs?

girlfromthegarden
18 years ago

Herman wrote, in a separate thread:

I have a little Dauphine but i think it will be a few more years till i report if i can make it produce fruit here in north east.It is poted in 5 gallon bucket wich i intend to bury to rim,every year then put it inside for winter.

This brings up a question I ran into last night while re-potting figs: if growing figs in containers *BUT* you want to sink them in-ground and allow the roots to creep out of the pots to allow greater growth each season, how will this change the approach to size of container needed, degree of root pruning (and method), and top pruning?

Reason asked, if figs are encouraged to "think outside the box", and count on the larger environment beyond their containers each growing season, what essentially is happening each fall when their warm-season root growth is severed from the ground in lifting them up for winter storage? is this enough of a root pruning in itself to last a few years, or should the plant be lifted from the container each spring before bud break, and the bottom root-pruned gently to encourage "creep" through the drainage holes again in the upcoming season?

Can the container be kept smaller if counting on the "buried" method each spring?

What about upper growth in these figs getting *really* large during summer and then root loss in fall from cutting them free from the ground, making them disproportionate size-wise (top mass to root mass)?

The mystery fig I repotted the other night with the massive woody roots was one that had sent roots into the ground, and had vigorous growth as a result. I want to know if this cultivation method from season to season would change the way we should approach pruning and caring for a fig, since it is not purely "containerized". Thanks for input!

Sherry

Comments (14)

  • kkfromnj
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Good question, I've been thinking along the same lines the last couple of months.

  • herman2_gw
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    In the Dauphine case (brebatype you have to severily prune about half of growth after you consume the breba crop,so that new growth is generated wich all has to be saved for next year crop.
    In a case of a fig wich produces a good main crop,you have to prune in the spring very short so new fig will grow on new growth.
    Also the drain holes are pluged by old roots so you have to pull it out free the draining holes,eventually drill a few more.
    Also while out cut off the encircling roots if any .Holes has to be drilled on the side only close to Bottom.Hope this will help!!!!

  • leon_edmond
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The root pruning question has always interested me in a different way. As a boy living in Chicago, I would help my grandfather "bury" the fig tree in the fall. He would slice all of the roots on one or more sides of the tree to allow us to bend the tree close to the earth to facilitate covering it, while leaving some of the roots untouched.
    It truly amazed me how hardy and productive his tree became, year after year of practicing this same process.

  • girlfromthegarden
    Original Author
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks for responses and thoughts, I'm still in the midst of re-potting and this seems really critical to how I approach what I want to do with my figs this season. It's a definite blessing having the collective experience of everyone here, especially as we put our heads together and start looking for what stands out as the *best* environments for growing figs, depending on the "how" and the "where". Some quick return thoughts/probes:

    Leon, your experience with your grandfather's fig is a reassuring confirmation that figs can and do thrive even after the root loss from severing in the fall - that's an important puzzle piece in this. But what Herman wrote about the *top*-pruning, needs to be brought into play also. Do you remember if your grandfather pruned his fig after unburying it each spring, and if so, how hard did he prune back? was the variety a main crop, breba crop, or breba + main crop bearer, if you can recall?

    What I'm trying to pull together is an understanding of what's maybe a multi-pronged relationship of root mass/top mass/soil needs, that changes depending on whether the fig is grown

    a.) entirely in its container (roots completely confined)

    b.) partly in container, but roots seasonally expanding during growing season into the ground, then being pruned at dormancy when fig is winter-stored, or

    c.) entirely in-ground

    Let me approach my questioning from another angle, but on the same topic: Al gave us insights into the importance of maintaining vigor of *container-grown* plants (deciduous trees, particularly) with regular root-pruning and using a balanced and targetted soil mix for plants grown under circumstance (a.) above (total confinement of roots). He proposed that to get new root growth stimulated, it is best NOT to prune the top mass, in order to send needed plant hormones from the branch tips, etc. down into the root mass to trigger expansion below soil line.

    On the other hand, Herman speaks of pruning top mass as well as root-pruning, because of it stimulating *better fruit production* in the fig (pruning style dependent on whether fig is primarily a breba or main crop bearing type). Obviously, pruning top mass does stimulate further above-soil growth, with timing of that pruning having a determinative effect on whether you're aiming for new current season growth (for main crop figs) or next season wood (for breba-bearing).

    But is there a way to combine (from a timing aspect) the advice given by Al to root-prune but not top-prune until new roots are established, and the needed stimulatory effect of top-pruning in spring that Herman mentions as necessary, if we have a main-crop bearer? I'm concerned about a conflict there, and maybe there's another clue that Leon can provide, if he remembers whether his grandfather top-pruned in spring at the same time as unburying and bringing the dormant fig back upright (also, Leon, did he stake or secure the fig in place for a while after it had been set back in a vertical position?).

    The *primary* reason for this thread in the first place is, how do we promote a healthy and *productive* (fruit-bearing) fig in each of the three scenarios of location? I'm convinced that any container-grown fig, whether it's in an (a.) or (b.) scenario, needs attention to roots and potting soil on a regular basis. Herman, I agree that each year, if I'm going to sink the containers into the ground, I'm going to need to check the bottom roots, trim back, clear from the container holes and provide ample room for "escapees" to make their way into the outside soil beyond the pot. But do you prune roots *and* the top of your container figs at the same time? and are they more fruitful this way?

    I want to discern between how a bonsai or ornamental tree grown in container differs in pruning treatment with a fruit-bearing tree grown the same way, to encourage fruit production. I think Al has said in the past that there's some trade-off, in diminished fruit production for maximizing root growth/health, but is this a strict situation (a.) observation?

    Obviously, too, container size relationship is different in circumstance (b.) where the available growing zone changes between dormant and growing seasons. This effectually applies also with a fig grown the way Leon's grandfather and others with cold-sensitive varieties handle winter dormancy, for maintaining a larger tree by laying it down and root-pruning in fall.

    Another question I'm trying to address, but might be better as a separate thread, is the soil-mix requirement that might differ between an (a.) and (b.) circumstance potted fig. If I go for a fully-confined fig, in a large container (20" diameter or so), the mix needs to have good aeration and moisture retention both, but in a pot that size, can't be so heavy that I'm not able to move it easily. Bonsai plants are grown in shallow containers, with less volume in general (Al, correct me if I'm wrong on this), compared with a larger fig tree grown in a deeper pot (more volume of mix = heavier container). I've been checking out the Turface option, in a thread in the Container Gardening forum, but have concerns that moving toward an inorganic mix with Turface, crushed granite, etc., may be too heavy, and that I'm better off using some Turface but with more perlite to reduce weight yet still promote aeration, with coarse vermiculite and pine bark mulch as my moisture-holding components. I'd also think that a fairly fast-draining and lighter weight mix in a (b.) situation fig will be okay if it has access to the soil beyond the pot. This is a long post reply but return thoughts would be appreciated. Feel free to take any of the above ideas and transform into a separate thread of its own if it needs a spin-off to cover the options - thanks!

    Sherry

  • gorgi
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Herman,

    I normally hate to 'push' people, but for what it is worth, here it is...

    Mention (maybe again) your other method of having a row of
    in-ground fig trees purposely planted @ alternate ~30
    degrees (I think) to the horizontal, ready for next winter
    protection (relates to Leon's father method).

    George (NJ).

  • herman2_gw
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well :in the fall when i dig the bucket out cutting some roots is anavoidable.At same time(Fall) i bring it in my garage i trim it to make it enough small so to fit in small place.
    In the Spring i finally take it out of container and trim Ensircling roots,and other tangled roots as needed,and also trim the top again to what i want the tree to start with.If you ask Jon Verdick he cuts down his inground figs to about 20 inches and less in height and they produce best that way and grow to be over six foot by Fall.This of course aplly to main crop fig tree only.From my own experience main crop figs i left unpruned produced only a meager number of fruits,much less than their true potential.Hope this will help.

  • girlfromthegarden
    Original Author
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Herman, do you trim your container figs to any particular size or shape? (Some of mine were pruned to single stem by the nursery; some seem to grow upright with less branching as a natural habit, others want to branch a *lot*.)

    How tall do you let them (or can they) get? I *do* want to prune some of my taller ones if that will make them more productive, but if they are breba-producers, then I'd rather wait. Although - will pruning a breba + main crop fig early in spring (basically pruning away the breba wood) give a larger main crop, if the breba crop is less productive anyway?

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thasa lotta stuff in there, Sherry. ;o)

    First, so I'm not at odds with anyone here, when I suggest it's best to leave the canopy intact, it is from the perspective of fastest root regeneration, fruiting not considered. For fruit production, prune to balance the total # of growing points on a tree so the tree can put energy into fruiting. If we assign the # of 1,000 growing points to a small unpruned tree, it might have little energy to devote to fruit production. A properly pruned tree of the same age, might only have half that many growing points & still be able to capture the same amount of the suns energy. With only half the demand on energy to make leaves & extend branches, the pruned tree will have much more energy to devote to fruiting.

    Any root or canopy pruning you do should be undertaken before or as buds begin to move in spring. It would be bad energy management to allow the tree to use it's energy to make leaves and extend branches, only to cut them off.

    As far as root-pruning goes, you will likely only undertake it every 3-4 years. Those plants that you have buried will be easy. Depot, saw the bottom 1/3 - 1/2 of the roots off, clean the roots & prune the fat ones. Then - right back in same container. You will likely see a diminished crop in years that you root-prune, but subsequent crops should be greater as a result of improved vitality.

    With regard to your soil choice: A plant that is grown in a container that is not in contact with the soil will benefit more from the gritty mix than those you sink, container & all, in the ground. The reason is simple: there will be no perched water table in the containers that are in the ground. The surrounding soil will act as a giant wick & drain the water. You can insure aeration in these containers by using various mixes of pine bark, peat, perlite (5:1:1to2 would be good) and your trees will do very well.

    Al

  • herman2_gw
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well George that is not my Metod,that is the French Metod,That is how they use to grow fig plantations at Argenteuil,(Paris Suburbia),in a climate not at all friendly to fig tree.But having a strong Demand for fresh fig,in Paris,a group of Italian Emigrants living at Argenteuil,found a way to grow them.This Metod is better explained in Gustav Eisen "Fig in France".Basically you grow the fig tree inclined 30 degree with ground,in pear both directions,18 inches apart ,two in one hole.Every year you cut off 2 years or older cane living young one to produce.It is needed to be young in order to be able to bend them down easy,in the fall to cover with soil,for winter protection.This way the tree look like a bunch of stems emanating from ground each spring when you uncover.No trunk at all,just brunches,.It works i tested it.Regards

  • girlfromthegarden
    Original Author
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Quick return to this thread (I'm trying to get in a flurry of replies, been short on time):

    Al, you said As far as root-pruning goes, you will likely only undertake it every 3-4 years. Those plants that you have buried will be easy. Depot, saw the bottom 1/3 - 1/2 of the roots off, clean the roots & prune the fat ones. Then - right back in same container. You will likely see a diminished crop in years that you root-prune, but subsequent crops should be greater as a result of improved vitality. Does this mean, though, that as Herman had mentioned, whenever I root-prune yearly to unclog the bottom of the container, that I'll have a diminished crop from the pruning? it didn't sound like that was everyone's experience necessarily, so I want to understand the relationship between the degree of pruning and the lack of productivity, when it sounds like it might be the inverse from some of Herman's recommends. Also, with my figs being so young, I'll just mention that I don't need a saw, only a scissors to prune them at this point!

    (on a tangential note, I ended up pruning more than roots last night, when de-potting one of my figs: I found a rather large, slightly-slumbering arachnid of a copper-red shade lurking in the roots as I untangled them with my fingers - ICK! the scissors came in handy, rapidly, and now shredded spider parts are a component of that last batch of soil 8-p )

    Again, from Al: With regard to your soil choice: A plant that is grown in a container that is not in contact with the soil will benefit more from the gritty mix than those you sink, container & all, in the ground. The reason is simple: there will be no perched water table in the containers that are in the ground. The surrounding soil will act as a giant wick & drain the water. So are you saying that ones being sunk into the dirt will have more wicking action and need a *more* moisture-retentive soil mix used? and that the ones above ground will need the better aeration qualities to avoid a PWC making the bottom portion of the container too soggy for roots to colonize effectively? just trying to clarify my understanding (I do appreciate having grasped the entire PWC concept, that's helped me strategize how I re-pot and mix my soil combos).

    And a flag to Herman, I don't know if you saw my query? (see above in the thread):
    Herman, do you trim your container figs to any particular size or shape? (Some of mine were pruned to single stem by the nursery; some seem to grow upright with less branching as a natural habit, others want to branch a *lot*.)

    I have quite a few single-stem cuttings that are little (24" or less) and have hardly any branchings - I don't want to pinch out the top growing tip on these this spring to make them branch, do I? this is an area I'm not familiar with, is how to prune and *when*, to encourage the fruit. I checked the archives in this forum and saw things about pinching back growing tips, but how big do you let the figs get first before touching them? Thanks for help, everyone!
    (still looking for Leon to chime back in about his grandfather's fig and any pruning that might've been done when unearthing it in the spring)

    Sherry
    (counting down with 15+ figs to re-pot)

  • herman2_gw
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Sherry: well ,the shape i like best is :one trunk,with a lot of side branches started very low at the surface of container.For this to happen you have to pinch the top bud continuouselly at no higher than 2.5 foot tall.
    yes you have to pinch the top bud ,on the single stem continuouselly and only then the fig will branch out and fruit well,as a matter of fact.The end tips of all branches do not help in fruitting,it hinders.This is what i noticed from Experience only.Regards

  • girlfromthegarden
    Original Author
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Herman, thanks for advice - another question: what if the figs are already well above 2.5 feet tall? do you prune off the top higher than that (and use the wood for cuttings), and let it start branching along the trunk below the pruned off top? how attractive would that be, to have the top lopped off after it'd been growing for awhile? also what do you do if the figs are already multi-branched, do you pinch off the terminal tips and encourage more branching?

    Sherry

  • herman2_gw
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Sherry: I am sure you know what to do to have a nice tree.If it is taller you cut the stem where you want to be,and use the cuttings.If it is allready branched you keep the branching as long as you like by pinching when you want to stop.Regards

  • goodground
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I didn't read every post in this thread.

    How does your soil drain? I wonder if a fast draining mix in the pot would create watering problems. How would you keep the roots evenly moist inside and outside the pot? I wonder if the roots in the pot will need water more frequent then the roots in the soil, creating a wet condition outside the pot. Not sure, just some food for thought. I would try to avoid this by mixing some regular soil in your pot. Figs like clay. If you want to make the pot really lightweight, use what I use. Coconut husk chips. I mix them with soil and perlite. They are great cause I like to move my citrus trees to a different location every hour :) They are always moving around looking for sunny locations :) The chips come in different sizes. I had ordered a bale years ago and I still haven't finished them with all my different plantings. They may be a good idea for your situation cause they hold moisture for days. They drain fast and then you can squeeze water out of them days later. But I ask you, why not just take it out of the pot and put it in the ground? After the summer pull it back out and into the pot. You would obviously have to prune the roots to fit them back into the pot. I planted my first figs last season. One had about 20 figs and I got to eat 4 juicy ripe figs. Not bad for a one year old plant in half sun in north Jerzey. I can't wait to take it out of the pot and plant it in full sun this year. By the way, my other fig stayed in the pot for the summer. There was no comparison between the two. They were both the same when I got them, but then they looked like father and son after the summer. The container fig looked unhealthy next to the in ground one and did not produce a single green fruit. I guess I'll wait till after frost season is over to bring them out. I want to plant them RIGHT NOW.

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