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Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

Posted by snaglpus 7 (My Page) on
Mon, Apr 19, 10 at 21:01

So far so good, one of the UC Davis cutting I recieved was one Pastiliere. I also got one Ischia Black cutting but the mold got to it. Well, my Pastiliere cutting started growing by leafing out but no roots yet. On the tip of the cutting, it started to mold real bad. The mold was an inch above the leaf sprout. I did not want to disturb the cutting too much so I snipped the mold with pruning shears. Next I took some Softsoap Elements Antibacteria hand soap, pumped some in a spoon...took a Q-tip and swabbed the top of the cutting with a heaping of the soap.

The next day, the mold was dead, GONE! Now, the cutting is growing nicely! Cutting saved! Hurray! Dog-Gone-It....I wish I knew about this technique before my Ischia Black cutting grew hair! Anyway, I used this techique on some other cuttings that were starting to mold, Monstrueuse, White Gem, and others with the same results. If the mold occurred at the base, I wrapped wet New Zealand Spaghanum moss around the cutting. Thought I might share these techniques with others. Save those cuttings! Cheers, Dennis


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

I just use Clorox wipes. They're bleach-free but still do a good job of combatting existing mold and deterring future mold.


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

Satellitehead, honest to God, I bought some of those and they do work for me too on some of my cutting where mold was forming on the side. But I found they did not work on those tip cuttings where mold started at the tip. Some cutting....I just had to rewash and repot in plastic cups. I also learned that after washing the cutting, if I roll it around in my soil and then place in the cup and add the soil, the mold does not form. So, those I recupped(not sure that's a word) tonight were rolled around in soil and placed in larger cups. I expect nice fig trees in gallon pots in 4 weeks! Cheers, Dennis


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

I mix 9 parts water, 1 part bleach, and apply it with a soft paint brush. Works like a charm! Prior to even putting my cuttings in their places, I scrubbed all of them with a toothbrush dipped in antibacterial soap AND also bleach/water. I rinsed the soap off, but left them to dry with that bleach/water on them. Out of 95 cuttings only 2 got a little fuzzy. I hit them with that bleach again, and fuzz is gone!


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

Dennis,

The terminal tip is often the first part of a tree to be damaged by cold weather. Damaged tips provide a food source for mold to grow upon. That is why some people actually prefer cuttings coming from the interior of the tree rather than from the branch tips.....especially when they know that those trees were exposed to cold temperatures. It is hard to remove that food source trapped inside of the bud....by chemical cleaning alone.

As, you know I pay a lot of attention to my cuttings when rooting them. When terminal buds are beginning to open, there is a time where the external shell covering the bud can be easily peeled off. When I see what appears to be a damaged bud tip......I will remove that shell covering as soon as it loosens up.

Also, should I see any CONDENSATE moisture on any cutting buds (especially tips), I take the time to dab the moisture off with a dry paper towel. I know....I know.....too much trouble for some and way too many details for other forum members. But, I can assure you that by removing that bit of moisture you will completely eliminate any possible mold. Rooting at a near constant temperature makes it much less likely that damaging condensate will appear on your buds.......irregardless of your rooting medium.

I like your idea of dabbing some AB hand-soap on a sickly bud.....have never tried that. You may know that I have developed a proprietary anti-molding and anti-bacterial compound liquid which I sometimes use on my cuttings. It is used on damaged parts of the cutting to help insure no mold occurs. This year I found myself using the compound much more than I have in the past.......due to damaged cutting "tips".

My Pastillier made it through the winter this year. It is growing about six inches from the ground. Last year it was completely winter killed and it had to be replaced last summer. Unlikely that I will get fruit from it this year......

Thank you for sharing your experiences.

Dan


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

Just tossing this out there, but most commonly when there is old at the tip, this is because the tip has split and is reparing to emerge with healthy leaves. I have had marked success with simply peeling away the two halves of the splitting tip and gently wiping away any fuzz.


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

Dan I use you technique for washing and cleaning cuttings and it works great. I had so much moisture build up that mold started on a few cuttings. My Florea cuttings I got from Herman2 were the ones that started to mold on me again. I can't remember if I washed them or not. However, I took care of those. My White Gem cuttings I got from Herman2 weeks ago are taking OFF! Using UPM and turface, makes those root jump out of the cup! Every cutting is leafing out, rooting, and growing fine. They rooted so fast and no mold. Can't wait till these sticks become figs. Cheers, Dennis


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

Mold needs three things for it to grow and thrive:

1) moisture
2) food
3) mold forming organisms (mold, yeast, bacteria, mildew, etc.)

You can ALWAYS PREVENT mold from occurring IN ANY SITUATION if you remove JUST ONE of those three components listed above. It doesn't matter which one you remove......remove any one and you will not see any mold. I have given very simple strategies that affect or remove each these items. These can be found in the Improved Baggie Method......that is one reason why the method works so well. That method was developed using the "scientific" technique known as "Root Cause Analysis". I am confident that no one (not even our very vocal and critical horticulturist) has ever used this scientific tool before to improve a fig rooting method. Google it and you will see how we scientist go about finding permanent fixes to complicated problems. I have improved many complicated, multi-variable, industrial processes in my former career using this very tool. This is what "real" scientists do to solve problems.....and improve methods and procedures. Someday I may publish my work......not to make money....just for personal satisfaction and achievement.

The absolute BEST moisture control will be achieved by simply keeping the rooting environment at a near constant temperature. I've tried many many times to express the importance of near constant heat for mold control. Many do not seem to agree with this simple fact. Whenever a near constant temperature is achieved (fairly easy to do) you WILL NOT SEE any damaging moisture condensing on the cutting tips.......no moisture on tips equals no mold. Even though a food source and organism might be on that tip due to it being damaged.

One day I will reveal just why Fertilome Ultimate Potting Mix (UPM) works so well over other rooting material. I'm still having lots of fun with those who try to prove superior results wrong. Like you said....the roots simply jump for joy right out of the cups. Chemist have lots of tricks up their sleeves......good to hear that at least you have found some merit in what I've posted. Funny how I get ridiculed, shunned, demonized, criticized, laughed at, etc.....for defending my work. Guess some people have a hard time believing that an old Cajun boy living in the sugarcane fields of South Louisiana right next to the swamps could possibly know anything about the cultivation and propagation of figs........

Dan


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on
    Tue, Apr 20, 10 at 22:49

It just never ends.

There are thousands of species of molds and none or almost none require condensate to reproduce or to wreak havoc with cuttings. The various species of molds have a tremendous tolerance for the extremes of temperature and humidity levels. Many molds are active at temperatures below 40*, and can grow very well on surfaces that feel dry when we touch them.

We are absolutely certain that cuttings contain moisture - probably about as much as that in the skin of an orange, yet mold grows very well on orange skins (and dry bread) if we keep them at the same constant temperature we would keep our cuttings at.

So there is no need to bring ideal rooting temperatures into the discussion, we should be able to agree that ideal rooting temperatures lie somewhere in the 68-75* range, though there are methods of rooting outdoors over winter that produce almost 100% success. First, it's impossible to maintain perfectly stable temperatures in any type of propagation chamber the hobby grower might be using, and second, it makes absolutely no sense that near stable temperatures would inhibit reproduction of mold species. You need to cite something believable - something other than "your research", which we have seen repeatedly contradict conventional wisdom. You can't just pull a statement out of the air and treat it as fact when you present a case. Anyone that is the least bit scientific-minded understands that concept.

Imagine you have a closed system, such as a Ziploc bag with a cutting suspended in it and a moist medium in the bottom of the bag. The air in the closed bag will soon reach 100% relative humidity, making the dew point whatever the air temperature is. Dew will form on all surfaces inside the bag. As soon as there is a tiny upward temperature fluctuation in ambient temperatures, the bag will be warmer than the cutting and condensation will be most prevalent on the coolest surface, which will temporarily be the cutting - until the temperature of the cutting equalizes with the temperature of the bag. No matter how hard you wish it differently, it WILL happen as I described. As far as I know, Dan has not been able to change how relative humidity and dew points work.

If the bag or propagation chamber is vented, it still isn't important to keep temperatures stable to to keep dew from forming on the cuttings. E.g., if the bag or propagation chamber was vented so you were maintaining 90% relative humidity, you have a 3* range to play with. As long as the temperature of the cutting was never any more than 3* cooler than the air surrounding the cutting, no condensate would form on the cutting. If you maintained 80% relative humidity in the propagation chamber the dew point would be 6* cooler than air temp and at 70* it would be 9*. From this you can easily see that the idea that simply maintaining a stable temperature in hopes that it will eliminate moisture formation on cuttings is pure bunk.

Temperature can change over a wide range. Technically, ambient air temperatures can fall very quickly in a vented system and no condensation will form on the cutting, but when temperatures rise, they must rise slowly enough that there is only a 3* difference in temperature between the cutting and air temperature at 90% relative humidity, a 6* difference at 80% and a 9* difference at 70% relative humidity.

Again, all these unnecessary instructions are just boiler plate that make a method of propagation that is mediocre at best, much more difficult and complicated than it needs to be.

FWIW - Many times I've challenged Dan to tell us why Fertilome UPM, an unsterile medium, is any different than any one of a hundred other peat-based potting mediums on the market - but so far he hasn't come up with anything. It makes absolutely no sense to suggest that propagators use an unsterile medium just because figs happen to be so vigorous you can get away with it.

I'm laughing because Dan is so quick to take credit for the fertilome mudium causing the roots to jump for joy right out of the cup. My take on it is it's probably by the saving grace of Turface being along for the ride, offering the aeration and drainage, that provided the healthy environment for the roots that made them so joyful.

Al


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

Well, one of the first sites that got my attention about UPM was Jose. Some of my cutting looked just like those in Jose's thread.

Here is the thread from Jose:
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/fig/msg0421253211548.html

cheers, Dennis


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

I'm still laughing at you too Al ......that swooshing noise is more that just a few bees under your bonnet. Some of us understand moisture in ALL of its forms & how to control it real well while some of us just don't get it. Some of us had to routinely resolve moisture issues on major industrial processing equipment affecting unit reliability and profitability while some of us just watered some plants. Its more than just relative humidity Al......its also about ABSOLUTE humidity, temperature, condensation, purity, and pressure too.

It never ends with your "stamping out (sic...Dan's) mis-information" campaign either does it? Pay very close attention to these words. Words have meaning. I do not post ANY mis-information that needs correcting by you and have no desire to argue technical issues with anyone having a closed mind. Again, I DO NOT POST ANY MISINFORMATION. The information that I choose to share on this forum comes from my fig research activities and I really don't care if it is in conflict with anything in your particular fig Bible. My research activities are RESULTS DRIVEN, based on common sense and sound science. It is futile to continue to argue against proven results that can be verified by anyone.

Anyone can verify for themselves the rooting method that I have posted and the one you are now criticising. Funny how we still have not seen your alternative in a complete written form......so others can verify your puffy claims too.

Dan


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on
    Fri, Apr 23, 10 at 9:52

Again, no reply that carries any weight whatsoever because what I said cannot be disputed. Dan is quick to resort to name calling and belittlement, and saying I'm wrong while TELLING you how smart he is, but he never seems to have any REAL answers for what I and others call into question - has never been able to poke holes in any argument I offer.

FWIW - For the last 21 years, I have been owner/president of a large glazing contracting corporation that I started in 1978. A part of my duties includes meeting with architects and engineers to discuss feasibility issues regarding the control of humidity/condensation in a wide variety of applications. Invariably, what I share is taken into consideration during the design phase of these projects, and if we are successful bidders, we get to become part of the application/implementation. From this you can probably infer that I know a little more about humidity and condensation than the average guy.

People who do know what they are talking about are able to include qualifications in what they say to fend off objections that the broad statements are not and cannot be all-encompassing. Few things are as absolute as Dan would have us believe, and ANY scientist understands this concept.

BTW - it's not that Dan "... gets ridiculed, shunned, demonized, criticized, laughed at, etc.....for defending (his) work"; these things occur because he always comes up short defending his WORDS. People SEE this and feel obligated to point out the holes. You just can't continually make unqualified suppositions and treat them as fact, then use them to advance an argument against sound science and expect that it would go unquestioned.

There's no substance in telling us how much you know. THAT, is "puffy". You can SHOW us what you know by making statements that are congruous with sound science. When some one makes a statement that doesn't jibe with good science, I might listen closely once or twice to see if I can figure out where he is coming from, but when people offer opinions by the handful that are contrary to settled science, I tend to decide the only attention the offerings merit is the time it takes to correct the misinformation therein contained.

If some one intends to "write a book" or publish his "research" he should have, ..... no, MUST have a command of the material that allows him to immediately support ANYTHING he says and explain it so there is no question about his mastery of the subject at hand. Where is that command and mastery?

Al



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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

Why do you guys have to wreck every thread with your stupid verbal fighting? You think we like to read it? Knock it off!! You both need a good whipin'!!

At least the beginning of this thread actually gave some good answers, so we don't all have to plow through your incessant arguing.


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

  • Posted by gorgi z6b NJ (My Page) on
    Fri, Apr 23, 10 at 13:09

Amen!
Let us all forget our EGO, and just mooove veeery fooorward.
This is a very small, some still learning, fig-crazy-nut community.
Some of us have sinned before (in-the-PAST, including myself).
Long live this (addictive) Ficus.carica...


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

I have been having trouble with some fig cuttings molding despite using BOTH Dan's and Al's methods (simultaneously yet), also scraping the moldy soft places, touching the mold with undiluted Dawn antibacterial soap and rewashing and dipping in Chlorox (the worst ones 3-4 times). It's probably my fault because I started them in the garage like last year at about 46F. (Only last year it worked well.) However, this year we had a late Spring with snow cover until mid March and I think that the temps were too cold for too long. Anyway, knowing that fig roots like oxygen and being in a experimental frame of mind, I tried 2 different things 1. Left them out over night to dry the cut/scraped places which works well for some cuttings like geranium in preventing rotting and 2. When this was an improvement but not totally successful I soaked them in undiluted Hydrogen peroxide (which breaks down into water and oxygen) for a few minutes and swished them in the liquid to push the bubbles away so fresh Hydrogen peroxide could get to the cutting but I did no scraping because I noticed that the soft rotten places were where I had scraped (I have done this twice). I check them about every two days and each time there has been less mold so I think the H2O2 helps. Either that or the mold gives up if you can outlast it. The cuttings have continued to develop that undifferentiated tissue mostly along the bark. I have forgotten the technical name that Al gives it.
I have been converted from sphagnum moss to paper towels because they are no worse and are cheaper and easier to use.
Someone noted that fresh cuttings root more readily than older ones. I've been thinking about fig latex in that regard. I noticed that the older cuttings are dryer inside. I think that the latex acts as a chemical barrier to pathogens in its liquid state and as a mechanical barrier once dry and I think that it does not flow freely enough in old cuttings to perform that function.
Comments anyone?


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

Al,

I do not have the desire nor the patience to teach or argue science based concepts with anyone who has a closed mind. What I offer in my posts are my observations and FREE advice that can be easily verified by anyone. I am sorry if you don't understand the underlying science of what I've posted. Chemistry, Mathematics, and Physics are my areas of expertise. Having worked 34 years as a problem solving industrial Process chemist, an Analytical chemist, and as an Environmental chemist......... I know how to apply the different science disciplines to my fig hobby and to my fig research activities.

Contrary to your stated beliefs in other threads.......

1) the phytoxins caustic soap and the strong chemical oxidizer Clorox....work quite well in preventing mold and DO NOT DAMAGE FIG CUTTINGS. 2) The Improved Baggie method is a very reliable and practical fig rooting method. 3) Nutrient rich fig rooting mixes work just fine in rooting fig cuttings. IMLO using UPM/perlite is much superior to using any INERT rooting mix. 4) Slow release fertilizers mimic nature in how they slowly release nutrients to the plants and WILL NEVER CAUSE A PROBLEM WITH WATER UPTAKE of a fig plant. 5) Heating pads cause more damage than they help in rooting fig cuttings indoors.....heating devices are simply not needed, so why do you recommend them in the first place? 6) Both 8-8-8 and 13-13-13 fertilizer work great for fertilizing in ground fig trees. They have no problems in stimulating excellent new tree growth which promotes nice fig crops .......despite their 1:1:1 chemical ratios. It is the fertilizer recommended for in ground trees by the REAL FIG EXPERTS at LSU.

It is silly for you to continue to argue with someone who consistently demonstrates PROVEN FIELD RESULTS in both the growing and propagation of figs. Your continued rhetoric and beliefs will fall on my deaf ears whenever I have firm data to the contrary. As I've stated before....my proven results will ALWAYS trump your theories. I have a legitimate point of view that I fully intend to freely express on this forum......get over it. Please STOP with your stated campaign to "stamp our (Dan's) misinformation". It is not your job to decide what is or is not relevant material on this forum. Nor is it your job to decide what is or is not good science. Nor is it even your job to decide "what is or is not" horticultural publication material. Enough is Enough. Stop it with your misbehavior.

FYI...whenever I post that I am 100% sure of anything.....I say that as a much experienced statistician and one who has used statistical scientific methods & tools on a daily basis to improve many measurement systems and chemical/physical processes. I know the difference between two sigma assurance (69.0%), three sigma (93.3%), 6 sigma (99.99966%), and 100% assurance. When I say am 100% sure of my information......realize that I was too lazy to write it out like is should be written will all of the zeros....100.0000000%. Statisticians like myself never do that unless being completely sure of the certification being made.

cath,

Once mold reaches the cambium layer of a fig cutting.....it is nearly impossible to remove it. The trick is to PREVENT it from occurring in the first place. Like I've stated earlier it takes three things for mold to form......food, uncontrolled moisture, and mold forming organisms.

Cleaning your fig cuttings in diluted Dawn AB and diluted Clorox not only kills mold organisms.....it also removes a lot of their food source. That's why this chemical cleaning regimen works extremely well for most fig cuttings. However, chemicals simply cannot work on what they cannot touch. There can be both food and micro-organisms inside of a damaged bud or cutting that these chemicals WILL NOT REMOVE.....because they cannot reach them. Another strategy here is to make sure you do not start out with damaged cuttings in the first place. Cuttings can be easily damaged by both COLD temperatures and by improper STORAGE. If you search on my user-name, you will find my posts on the proper storage of fig cuttings.

Re peroxide.....if it works for you....go for it. However; as a chemist and an expert on chemical cleaning. you will find that it will be very difficult to improve upon the sequential Dawn AB, and Clorox regimen. Clorox leaves an effective trace chemical residue on your cutting while peroxide does not and Clorox is a more powerful oxidizing agent (i.e. better at killing micro organisms and spores).

The common sense, descriptive, English name that I use for "that undifferentiated tissue mostly along the bark".......is BARKING. It is called that because if you notice when it is removed off of a fig cutting....it will leave behind what looks and feels like raised tree bark! Many confuse barking with mold. However; as you have observed, it definitely is not. Nor is it root initials as some thought. Not all fig cuttings will produce barking and when it occurs I like to remove it. I root in baggies with paper towels. This gives me a chance to remove this barking with a gentle swiping of a toothbrush....before it can become problematic.

Remember that dormant cuttings will have lost water during the process of the mother tree going dormant. That moisture will have to be replaced during the re-hydration phase of the rooting process.....re-hydration takes a bit of time. Green cuttings with latex flowing do not have to be re-hydrated so they will usually root faster than dormant cuttings.

I do not know if latex forms a chemical barrier as you surmise. However, I do know that LSU collects latex from some of their fig trees for medical research purposes.

Dan


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on
    Sun, Apr 25, 10 at 13:09

I'm not sure why there is any need to dredge up another dozen topics from another dozen threads to carp and ramble on about. I'm just going to let anyone who wants to try to find something positive or informative in that have at it.

Al


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

Al,

As long as you STOP with your stated campaign to "stamp our (Dan's) misinformation"......all will be fine. Forum members can decide for themselves what is relevant to them.

I am a very easy going guy and desire only to share my fig related experiences with others. I am a bona fided FIG RESEARCHER and do not sell fig plants nor do I sell fig cuttings. I grow and make routine observations on literally hundreds of fig trees. Accordingly, I have lots of first hand experience and have a very STRONG and VALID viewpoint. There is much pleasure in helping others enjoy the hobby that we all love. However; rest assured, I will not be bullied or intimidated by the "seasoned forum members" on this or any other forum ever again. I already moved from one fig forum....never again will I move. Enough is enough already. Continue with the sniping, condensation, & ridicule and I can 100.000000000% guarantee a similar response from me along with a good dash of sarcasm. I'd rather we just moved on and just talked about figs...always respecting every one's viewpoint and contribution to this great forum.

Dan


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

Dear Dan and Al;

I'm a new member of this forum and this is my first season growing fig trees.

I JOINTED this forum to LEARN about FIGS, NOT to READ bunch of verbal arguments. Each time I see that you too are about to get in another argument I'll just discontinue reading the rest of that specific threat, because it's NOT worth of my time to read all these garbage.

Time is Gold, others and I, we don't have too much time to read through all these nonsense to get the answer for our questions.

I have came upon few other forums on GW and NEVER NEVER seen such a drama. Come on......

We, fig lovers are tired of these BS's. We can NOT learn anything usefull when you two decide to start bashing each other.

Please, knock it off.

P.S. The good thing is there no such of drama on figs4fun message bord, or I haven't seen one yet.


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

nkesh,

Re-read this thread and tell me that you have not seen some original fig related information posted here. I would just love to be able to post my information in peace on this forum without someone sniping and trying to stamp out what he perceives is my mis-information. IMO that's the real BS.

Let's try to be fair here. The person who starts this BS has never once said that he would stop with his misbehavior. I have said that I would on several occasions. I have absolutely no intentions of backing down should he ever surface it again. You are most certainly free to skip over my posts and frequent other forums. However, I can assure you that you will miss out on some really good fig related stuff.

Dan


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

How about those figs?????

How are those cuttings doing? Mine are doing well. I am anxious to pot up my Pastiliere but I only see a few roots.

Dennis


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

Dan;

I have read all the information. Albeit the beginning the info. was useful (as desertdance mentioned) but for some reason it turned to a quarrelsome argument between two educated forum member.
We all know you guys are experts and have degrees in Sciences and want to teach other, but when a threat turn into a argument it loses its values and it will vex the other forum members. As myself, I have degrees in Organic Chm and Cellular Biology and if someone start a debate/argument on a subject with me I'll listen and try to give specific and a non nebulousness reason to my method/opinion of why I think the whey I think? and when their reason does make sense I'll don't act obdurately and start an argument with them.

We all very ardent about learning more about fig but NOT so much for reading threats after threats of bunch of BS and arguments. We can't spend our time squandering around reading through such a threats to finally learn something about FIGS or getting some answers to our questions that we had.

Al and Dan:

You two have helped many member in this forum and we all appreciate your knowledge and the vehement passion that you have for figs.
Please put this animosity away and be peaceful. After all life is too short to get worked up and raise your blood pressure. Its not worth it.


Navid


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on
    Mon, Apr 26, 10 at 10:00

Here is all I have to say on the matter, and it's straight from the heart: I've been posting on this forum since 2002. I have had one serious disagreement in all that time with 1 person other than Dan. That is after hundreds and hundreds of posts. I generally stick to the more technical aspects of the sciences as they relate to trees as that is my strong suit and I don't have a lot of extra time to enter into every discussion on the few threads I enjoy visiting.

I have proven over and over that I have a thorough understanding of every subject UI choose to discuss. If I'm questioned, you all have witnessed over and over the civil way I reply ant the thorough manner in which I explain my position. Normally, that is the end of it and I get no joy from 'winning' an argument, but I do get a lot of satisfaction from the idea that you guys are getting good information.

I'm not picking on Dan or gunning for him. Dan happens to be the worst offender on this forum when it comes to posting his opinions as fact. He continually illustrates he doesn't have the basic horticultural knowledge to interpret what he is seeing in what he calls his research, so he makes many hasty suppositions that fly in the face of science. When I see these inconsistencies I point them out. You all know what happens then. I don't feel it's right that someone should be able to bully their way to the pulpit and insult and shout everyone down that doesn't agree with him while telling you how right he is with nothing whatever to back the claims.

EVERY time I disagree (with anyone), I lay out exactly why I disagree and offer the science that supports the position I take. Every time I dare to disagree with Dan, out comes the belittlement, shouting, and always the fact that he is a bonafide researcher and a scientist and a chemist and a .......... If that was true, he should EASILY be able to explain to me and the forum exactly how he arrived at any questionable conclusions; but instead of engaging in civil debate, he resorts to any and every tactic under the sun to turn attention from the actual subject that should be being discussed. This pattern repeats over and over. I've been under continual attack since before Christmas and the butt of the sarcasm that permeates a very high % of Dan's posts. That is difficult to accept for someone who actually has your best interest at heart.

I said it before - if the consensus is that the forum prefers I move on and just skip visiting 'Figs' - I'm happy to do so, because it really isn't worth it any more. It's just not fun.

Al


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

Navid,

I don't like the bantering either. However, just watch how this BS gets started every time. It is all a matter of record that anyone can go back and see for themselves. Post ANYTHING that does not agree with what certain "seasoned" forum members have posted IN THE PAST....and watch them come out for an attack. Some will even tell you point blank to "get lost". I have absolutely no problems in answering questions. Re-read all previous threads where bantering took place between me and AL and notice where Al always proceeded his "questions" with laughter at what I just posted. Does he really expect a civil answer or response following his complete lack of respect and civility?? Still wondering why I respond as I do??? Enough of his BS and continued misbehavior.

Regarding education.......FORMAL education means absolutely nothing if you don't have common sense and know how to apply it in everyday real world situations. There are some forum members who may not have an advanced formal education........however, they have PhD's in FIGOLOGY. They have EARNED their figology degree through years of hands-on experience. Their viewpoint is just a valid as any other. I would trust their fig knowledge, fig trials, and other fig related research activities over that of ANY horticulturist. It really ticks me off to watch the formal degree guys try to intimidate or bully others. Some members cannot respond to all the Latin words and technical jargon. They become discouraged (intimidated) in posting their very valid viewpoint ever again. However, that BS will not work on me because I understand all those technical words and concepts. Baloney is baloney no matter how pretty the paper you choose to wrap it and no matter how many times you try to sell it off as steak.

Dennis,

FYI, as I've stated earlier.....I appreciate your post on the use of AB handsoap to treat mold. That post has me going down a new path in the development of an anti-molding agent. I intend to "gel" the anti-mold formula that I have already developed. I will also be increasing the alcohol content for it good azeotropic properties. Those avenues were not contemplated by me until your post.

I thought that we had a good discussion going until the sidebar bantering took place. I stand 100.00000000% behind what I've stated about preventing mold at the very beginning of this thread. It works and it works quite well.

Dan


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

  • Posted by gorgi z6b NJ (My Page) on
    Mon, Apr 26, 10 at 12:34

snaglpus sorry for skipping off your subject...

Here in the NE; during this (past)Sunday and (coming)Wednesday,
a cloudy light-rain weather was/is forcast. I took that opportunity
to bring my young-green figs out of my greenhouse (in the open) so that
they will get a good natural-oxygenated-water-taste and clean-up-spray.
After that, they will go in some full shade spot for ~1-2 weeks, (so as to UV harden)
before they go in and enjoy good direct-sunlight.


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RE:2- Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

  • Posted by gorgi z6b NJ (My Page) on
    Mon, Apr 26, 10 at 13:01

snaglpus,

Yes, I do remember that my Pastiliere (2006.UCD47) was
kind of hard to root, but I do not remember why?!

I do have an old (non-photobucket) pic of my (over-ripened?) 2 fruits.
See pic below at ~5 o'clock on the plate.

http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/file?id=433822

Here is a link that might be useful: my Pastiliere (2006.UCD47)


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

Dan;

I'll use regular vocabulary words for you to understand. These words are in English Dictionary and I use them frequently and it seems like everyone do understand them. So, don't know what you mean by "other forum members CAN NOT understand them".

Anybody reading Al's and your comment will understand that you are looking to start a verbal fight with who ever is NOT happy with the way some forum members will act. It tells me that you can't take criticism well and correct the bad habit.

1) Regarding your statement of the FORMAL education that you mentioned;

Sorry to tell, I JUST don't a formal degree as you said. I do apply what I have learned (10 yrs of higher education and research in Neuroscience and Cancer) everyday in my work. My area of interest is on Cancer and the Role of beta-catenin in melanoma development and Chmp1A protein. I work in a well known scientific research company. I'm NOT one of those young guys that you mentioned.

2) I'll use regular vocabulary words for you to understand. These words are in English Dictionary and I use them frequently and it seems like everyone do understand them. So, don't know what you mean by "other forum members CAN NOT understand them".

3) One more thing:

About 2-3 months ago when I joined this forum and needed some help with propagation, I send you a email asking where I could find your "NEW METHOD" and if I could keep the cuttings in a 63-65 degree room without loosing them. Well YOU NEVER ANSWERED my email. After getting NO response from you I made a new thread on propagation and asked my questions there from other forum members.

On the other hand, I emailed AL and he answered ALL of my question. He helped me a lot. If you are such an experienced and intelligent person you should a least responded back instead of just wait to bash the others responds.

As I said earlier it seems like I'M NOT the only one who is frusterated here. I didn't reply at the beginning to start another fight (just don't have the time for these BS). Just wanted to bring peace between you two. it seems like, Dan, you really don't want to be peaceful and not to bash others comments or opinions.

By the help of other forum members like; AL, MARTIN, JON, GORGI, DENNIS and some other wonderful members of this forum, I was able to propagate all my cuttings about 20 of them SUCCESSFULLY, even that it was my first time (I could NOT be so successful without help of these guys, that is WHY some people actually try to learn here like me, NOT to fight). And, have 12 trees from 1 year old to 4 years old in containers. Too many fig trees, can't stop buying more, guess got the bug.. LOL

Al;

Other forum members and myself do appreciate all your help here. I have learned a lot from you. But, I agree with you I think i will just skip this forum too. The figs4fun site seems like a better choice, I have NOT yet to see any of these verbal fighting in there and hope to NOT to see any.


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

Navid,

I am very happy that you found the answers to your questions and obtained the information that you needed. I stand by everything that I have written in this thread. From my perspective that BS ALWAYS starts from another source. The written record of these banterings will clearly show how it occured. I did respond to your request for information and posted a link to the propagation method that I referenced. You must have missed it.

Best of luck to you and I hope that you enjoy your new fig trees.

Dan


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

  • Posted by gorgi z6b NJ (My Page) on
    Mon, Apr 26, 10 at 15:14

snaglpus,
Check this very oldie post about fig mold...
(note the posting date - 05/21/08)

Here is a link that might be useful: Say goodbye to mold (for the most part)


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

This should be totally obvious already, but ... It doesn't matter where the argument starts or who started it. What matters to most of us is ... who will be the bigger person and end it?

For all of the sceience, logic, talk of research and intellectual exchange going on here, these brilliant minds should easily grasp that an argument cannot survive if one person simply STOPS responding. If one person simply stops responding, the argument turns into a single person ranting, or one person attacking another, which is easily punishable by having a moderator exercise the ToS and boot the instigator.

Someone needs to step up as the adult and simply stop responding.

Who will be the bigger man?

Let us get back to learning again? Please?


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

satellitehead, are you sure? These are men? Not little children? I never spanked a man, but I'm fixin' to start!! I have a very hot iron frying pan that, when I fling it, will send them both to Mars or Jesus, whichever comes first!!

Yes, they both have so much great info, but it is sad they make us suffer. How do you stop reading a thread you posted to and care about?

I'm sick of the arguing, as are all but two. I'd like to stop reading this thread, but I just blow through the posts by Al and Dan (two boys who gambled late. Al had a 7, and Dan swore he had an eight).

Stagger On~
Suzi


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

How about those Figs!!!!!

Thanks Gorgi. That information was very helpful. I just could not keep the mold off of 2 of my Florea cuttings I got from Herman2. So I placed them into a large container of New Zealand Sphagnum moss and placed them in a the garage where it's pretty warm. They will be fine in there. More to come in one week. Dennis


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

I just want to be able to post my fig related material without someone getting a bee under their bonnet simply because it does not agree their views, methods, or prior postings.

I have already specifically called on Al to KNOCK IT OFF with his stated campaign to "stamp out" my "mis-information". As I've written directly to him in an above post:

"I do not post ANY mis-information that needs correcting by you and have no desire to argue technical issues with anyone having a closed mind. Again, I DO NOT POST ANY MISINFORMATION. The information that I choose to share on this forum comes from my fig research activities and I really don't care if it is in conflict with anything in your particular fig Bible. My research activities are RESULTS DRIVEN, based on common sense and sound science. It is futile to continue to argue against proven results that can be verified by anyone."

I do not know how I can make it any clearer than that!!
Poke me in the eye again and I definitely will respond in kind again......has nothing to do with being a better or lesser man.....it has to do with principle and absolutely no fear of being intimidated or shouted down by anyone. God, honor, duty, country, and principle matters greatly to me. I've already tried turning the other cheek and it hasn't worked well for me......

I am 100.00000000% sure of the material that I post and I know with a statistical certainty that it can help others enjoy their figs too. Sorry for the inconvenience of those forum members having to endure this BS bantering in order to get to the good stuff. It sure isn't fun for me either.

Dan


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

Dennis, I'm genuinely sorry for not discussing the original topic at hand any further. I was one of the first people to chime in and give my solution, only to come back in here to see grown men act like children all over again. If this ludicrous behavior didn't happen almost daily, I would swear I was living in a perpetual state of deja vu.

All I see here are a bunch of invalid excuses which try to justify why it is "OK" to act immaturely and poo-poo on other people's legitimate threads. If all the information being posted is 100% correct, it speaks for itself, and there is no need to defend it so adamantly that arguments continue. Why not just ignore the guy or report him if he is attacking and insulting, rather than firing right back? If you do this and moderators agree, then ... problem solved.

Instead, all that happens is fuel is added to the fire by responding. Then the thread gets deleted or heavily pruned and all that information, all those answers that everyone else wanted to see are gone. Everyone loses because of one or two people who can't just ignore a different school of thought. But, no, instead, every time anyone posts a contradictory piece of information, it's instantly an attack on the original poster! "They're out to get me! I gotta burn this place down and get this thread or these posts deleted ASAP!"

Maybe that's what some parties involved actually want? To ruin everyone's threads and have them all deleted, as they've been deleted from other fig forums and other GW threads? I guess the idea is to sling mud all over the place so that nobody can enjoy these little fruits and trees we are all so passionate about?

"If I can't be right all the time, then NOBODY can enjoy anything!!?"

Nobody in this forum has to respond to any attack, responding as a choice that is made which perpetuates fighting. You can put down your weapon at any time and let the moderators step in. If you choose to respond, you are choosing to continue the argument, which makes you no better than the person on the other side. By responding, you perpetuate the argument, thus this nasty cycle continues on and on and on.

It seems both parties are guilty of this. As someone said recently about other topics of conflict.... "ball is in your court". Will you continue to play tennis, or just stop swinging at balls hurled your way?

Can we just let it go already and talk about figs? The bickering is so old and so tired, and the excuse of, "HE STARTED IT!!!!" is ... not only inaccurate, but it's tired at this point. And most of us are sick of that invalid excuse and the conflict.

Just stop it, guys. Seriously. Please. We're begging you.


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on
    Tue, Apr 27, 10 at 9:20

I'm trying guys. You have to scroll a long way up this thread to find my last post.

That's all.

Al


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

I'm trying too guys. It is a matter of record that HE STARTED it many times. Starting it once in a while is not a problem. However, doing it many many times is proof of a campaign. There is a mocking post where he flat out stated that he "specializes in stamping out (sic- Dan's) mis-information." That campaign is what really needs to stop. My viewpoint is letigimate and my information does not need to go through AL for a proof reading. Don't ridicule my post because it is different than your viewpoint and then expect to have a serious discussion or get answers to your questions. I've called on AL several times now to KNOCK IT OFF. Let me post my fig related information in peace. Let's see if he does. The ball has always been in his court..........

Dan


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

  • Posted by gorgi z6b NJ (My Page) on
    Tue, Apr 27, 10 at 10:38

SOS!


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RE: Saving cuttings - Pastiliere

Amen!

Dan


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

So far this year my cutting have not come down with mold but should they I am waiting to try a remedy that I use with orchids that have bacterial rot, cinnamon. It worked like a charm on the orchids. Dont know about fig cuttings.

Has anyone tried it?


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

What do you do with the cinnamon? sprinkle it on?


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

I would guess that brushing on cinnamon oil (or any other oil) could possibly be effective, but it may retard rooting as well by preventing oxygen from reaching the outer cambium?


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

I came to this forum to increase my knowledge about growing and caring for Figs. To me, figs are special false-fruit. Some cultivars are very rare and special and are pretty hard to root. Those hard to root are a challenge to me and builds character. My pastiliere cutting is growing well. I did a test with it along with other cuttings I had. I was out of gallon pots so I left my cuttings in thier small bottles and place them in my dark and very warm (77 degrees) garage. The cutting root grew another inch overnight! So, I know this cultivar needs a lot of heat. The other cuttings I had in the same container were White Gem, Monstruesue, Unk Yellow, Tommy, Dark Green Greek, Gold Celeste, Parasido, Black Madeira, and Desert King. All grew more roots over night but not an inch. Some grew more than an inch. I repotted them all and placed them in my greenhouse. Now my Tommy cutting is unique. For about 2 years one of my coworkers would tell me about this huge 12 foot tall fig tree in his neighbours yard. For years, I ignored him. Finally weeks ago, I requested he bring me some cuttings. And boy did he! He gave me a bag of these pretty dark green cuttings about the thickness of a broom handle, some smaller. I recut them down to 5 or 6 inches and ended up with a lot of cuttings! No, I did not give any away. I wanted to see first what cultivar the fig is.

Well I placed them in the baggie for about 3 weeks and they did not root. They just looked very GREEN and no mold. So, I got a wild hair and decided to just place them in 50/50 Turface/UPM or Turface/Happy Frog. Within 3 weeks, they started to root very slowly and leaf out. I think I ended up with about 30 cuttings. I potted the last 4 cuttings yesterday. I am not sure what cultivar this cutting is and my friend Tommy does not know either. He did say the tree never has die-back, every year it has thousands and thousands of red figs on it the size of ping-pong balls. He said the mother tree is now full of leaves and growing strong adjacent to a garage. I plan on going by there at the end of May and June and take some pictures of the leaves and fruit. I will post them on this thread for all to see. At first I was thinking the tree is a Celeste but he says the fruit is very large. Celeste fruit is medium size and easy to root here. Then I was thinking it was a brown turkey but the brown turkey fig here are not that big plus brown turkey cuttings are not green on old wood and they root very fast unlike this tree. I'm anxious to see the fruit from this tree. I call it Tommy but may have to change that once we can ID the mother tree. cheers, Dennis


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

Dennis that red fig sounds like a great find. I can't wait to see pics of mother tree and figs. Sounds like you are having good success rooting cuttings and I enjoy looking at your pics and reading your posts
Sal


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

I have no idea why cinnamon would be an effective mold agent. It would be a surprise to me if it is due to its oil content. However, I surely will give it a try and give it more thought. Many modern day medications were initially discovered in plant materials. Mother nature produces some really great and powerful biochemicals....in her plant, insect, and animal world. Some people still use 'Willow Water" to increase their fig cutting rooting success. There are some very powerful rooting stimulants to be found in willow tree extract. Stick a willow tree branch in the ground in my area and it will likely root......even in standing water. The whole Mississippi river batture (both banks) in South Louisiana is "planted" with willow trees from cuttings that came down the Mississippi river. Dig a large drainage ditch or canal in my area and in no time it will be lined with willow trees.

Thanks for the cinnamon tip and your bacterial rot observations on its use with orchids. I see a few more mold study experiments in my future.......including the ideas generated from Dennis's AB handsoap tip WAY AT THE BEGINNING of this thread. As a dedicated fig researcher and anti-mold agent developer, I love picking up this type of information and is one of the reasons why I read each and every post in every thread on this forum. You just never know when the next GREAT IDEA or SUGGESTION will be posted. Often it comes as a near whisper and with no great fan fare announcing that another great idea has just been posted. That's the beauty of shared information in a forum community......the whole becomes much greater than the sum of its individual parts/members. Let everyone always feel free to express their ideas and viewpoint without fear of ever being belittled, laughed at, or ridiculed in any way.

Dan


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RE: Saving cuttings - Pastiliere

Dennis,

I recently completed some controlled studies on baggie rooting. There is no doubt that too little moisture on the paper towels will delay or completely stop the rooting process in the paper towel. Some cuttings just need more water than others in the re-hydration phase of the rooting process. One batch of Marseilles Black VS had this very issue. One can easily judge the correct moisture level in the baggie by just looking at the cutting itself. The wrapped cutting should always look damp (never shiny or dry) and not have any liquid moisture drops anywhere on the cutting. When you are on the sweet spot between "too wet" and "too dry", it will feel kind of sticky/tacky when you GENTLY touch the cutting with the very TIP of your finger. Once you have rooted many cuttings this becomes second nature and you will automatically know when to add a bit of water to the towel. If in doubt, it does not ever hurt to change out the towel with a completely new barely damp towel any time during the time spent in the baggies.

Bottom line......If a baggie cutting appears to be taking much longer than others to form root initials, it is likely due to it simply needing more moisture than the others. One can learn when to add water to the paper towel by observing the cutting surface. I like the idea of being able to re-hydrate a cutting across its entire length as it rests in the damp paper towel. The time saved for re-hydration and appearance of root initials is shaved right off of the time spent in rooting cups. That shortened time makes surfacing mold issues less likely.

Looking forward to your future posts on that red fig.

Dan


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

With the orchids I would cut the affected area off, if possible. Sometimes on stems it would take some surgery but your never sure you got it all, or in some cases, theres no way to get it all without killing the plant.

I would then sprinkle regular old cinnamon on the wounds till theres complete coverage. Cleared up the rot asap.

Smells nice in the greenhouse too!

I got the tip from a old timer at my orchid meeting. I didnt think it would work but it did.

NO idea if it will work on plants other than orchids.


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

  • Posted by gorgi z6b NJ (My Page) on
    Tue, Apr 27, 10 at 17:41

snaglpus,
If "Ischia Black" is what you want, I do happen to have a
small (UCD) specimen if you want it (free). Yes, it a beast to
root AND-and-and GROW, moslty (I think) because it suffers
very severly from FMV (specially when under stress).


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on
    Tue, Apr 27, 10 at 17:43

Almost all the essential oil in ground cinnamon bark is a phenyl biocompound called cinnamaldahyde, which is responsible for cinnamon's flavor and aroma. Cinnamon has long been known for it's antimicrobial properties. I read once where breads of long ago would quickly mold, but 'raisin bread', popular because it would remain wholesome for much longer than other breads, resisted mold for much longer. This lead to attempts to try to isolate the compound responsible for the extended shelf life. Soon, it was discovered that cinnamon was acting as the preservative. Some time later, cinnamaldahyde was isolated and it's antifungal properties noted.

It's commonly believed the antimicrobial effects of cinnamaldahyde and other spice oils revolves around interactions with the cell membrane, but there is conflicting information as to whether the effectiveness is due to a mechanism that is inhibitory or lethal.

It does work. I often use cinnamon to dust the ends of succulent cuttings I intend to leave lying on the propagation bench to callus. I've also seen it mentioned that it's particularly effective on soilborne pathogens.

Al


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

Thanks Gorgi! I tried to email you but this website is not working. Email me at snaglpus"AT"inbox.com I will definately pay you for the cutting.

I heard of using cinnamon on cuttings. I forget where I heard about that. I have an idea..... Gorgi when you send me that cutting, I'm going to try something and I think it will work! I'll take step by step photos what I do and post them here. Thanks everybody for all your comments. They are appreciated! Cheers, Dennis


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

  • Posted by gorgi z6b NJ (My Page) on
    Tue, Apr 27, 10 at 19:48

snaglpus,
The little (free) IB is already rooted but not ready...
I will email you later.


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

Ok, thanks Gorgi!

Dennis


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

........and here is a reward(?) for having to read thru all of the above sidebars.

Sometime back I purchased a couple of food storage containers. They were advertised as having an FDA approved (for food safety) Nano Silver Technology which helps food stay fresher longer. These containers are actually infused with nano-sized particles of silver that reduce the growth of mold, fungus, and bacteria which then allows foods to stay fresh longer.

I purchased a few of these containers for several reasons.....one of which is to use in my fig cutting mold studies. The other reason was for storing strawberries, blackberries, peaches, and figs. Strawberries have been in season in my area for awhile and great prices can be had when purchased by the flat. I am pleased to report that these containers do an EXCELLENT job of keeping the berries fresh. They work just as claimed.....I have not had to throw out any moldy berries this season. They come with a nice little rack that keeps the food from contacting any moisture that accumlates on the bottom of the container and for air circulation......a very nice designed feature.

Below is a link to a site which sells this product. This in not meant to be a SPAM link......just meant to illustrate this type product for anyone interested.

Dan

Here is a link that might be useful: Premium Food Storage Container


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

While treating some cuttings for mold, I noticed that some cuttings are "floaters" and some are "sinkers". Does one category have a more likely chance of rooting than the other? Do "floaters" need more hydration?
Cath


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on
    Thu, Apr 29, 10 at 10:16

There is no clear indication that the group that floats will not remain viable and root; but as a group, the sinkers are more likely to root.

Al


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

  • Posted by gorgi z6b NJ (My Page) on
    Thu, Apr 29, 10 at 15:43

snaglpus,
You got mail.

cath41,
I used that principle of "floaters vs sinkers" for
separating most other plant SEEDS. The sinkers are
the viable ones and floaters (plus debris) are duds.
I never thought of fig-twigs as floaters/sinkers
before; good point! My guess is that the sinkers
came from mature wood while floaters came from
young-immature wood (mostly made of that fluffy
white pith) or else (somewhat) desiccated wood
- and less likely to succeed.
Let us know your results.


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RE: xyz-Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

  • Posted by gorgi z6b NJ (My Page) on
    Thu, Apr 29, 10 at 16:09

cath41,
I forgot to mention that fast-grown immature fig
wood is not only hard to root (tends to rot), but
also to cold-winterize - hence many fig experts
recommend to stop fertilzing and/or slow-down-on-watering
comes late summer.


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

Hi Y'all!

I just wanted to say that I live in LA, as does Dan and if there's any place to study mold "on the hoof", it's here in South LA where we both live. In LA, if it exists, it's gonna mold if it stands still too long and that's no joke.

Dan, I appreciate your posts because you live here where I do and have figs that you are amassing information from. Thanks for all your good information. Much appreciated.

Noss


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

Noss,

No one can appreciate how bad mold can get until they have seen firsthand the inside of the flooded homes from the aftermath of hurricane Katrina. High mold spore counts, high relative humidity, and warm temperatures certainly do prevail in our area. "Uncontrolled" moisture can surely release a mold outbreak on a Biblical plague like proportion.

FYI, I am making good steady progress in finding those fig cultivars that will do well in our area AND those that will significantly extend our fig growing season.

I did get your email and will respond in detail when I get a chance.
Dan


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

Dan,

I'm glad you're working on those cultivars.

I'm trying to get the varieties that have closed eyes. So far, I've got the two grown Celestes and a Hunt baby and a Smith baby.

I would like to get a true LSU Purple and a Golden Celeste because they, too have closed eyes.

Am playing with growing some of the new babies in containers because I don't have room for a real orchard.

I tried containers once, but didn't know I needed to root prune the container figs and they burst out of their pots and went into the ground by themselves. They are the Celestes, which are now in the ground where they wanted to be.

I've also got a new baby Texas Everbearing, a new baby Eastern Brown Turkey and a new baby O'Rourke/Improved Celeste.

They should do poorly in wet weather, but they'll be there if it should be dry! If I keep them in containers, maybe I can rig up an umbrella for them. :)

Everyone--Thanks for all your tips and sharing your experiences with us,

noss


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

  • Posted by mrhappy z8 - Austin, TX (My Page) on
    Sat, May 1, 10 at 16:18

This thread was pretty motivational to me. I opened some baggy method cuttings of varieties I have been trying to acquire for some time. I had white mold and a bit of some mold that looked gray. I did not have the clorox wipes (which is a brilliant idea) but I did have some liquid bleach. I considered making wipes with the bleach but decided against it as I have NO delicacy in my touch. I opted to dip the cuttings in 10% solution and scrub gently with a soft toothbrush. To my surprise I did not damage the root initials and the cuttings look fine.

I really got value out of this thread. Thank you for sharing.


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

In the end the hydrogen peroxide did not work nor did the 10 percent chlorox solution with the antibacterial soap. The cuttings continued to mold significantly when checked every 1-2 days. However, the ground cinnamon is significantly better. There were only 4 spots of mold on about 15 cuttings and those spots were only where the cinnamon was not. I treated those places with more cinnamon without even removing the mold first.
Cath


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

In the end the hydrogen peroxide did not work nor did the 10 percent chlorox solution with the antibacterial soap. The cuttings continued to mold significantly when checked every 1-2 days. However, the ground cinnamon is significantly better. There were only 4 spots of mold on about 15 cuttings and those spots were only where the cinnamon was not. I treated those places with more cinnamon without even removing the mold first.
Cath


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

Unfortunately once mold has reached the cambium layer of a cutting......neither Clorox, nor peroxide, nor cinnamon, nor anything else will kill it. It must be treated like a cancer and surgically removed otherwise the infected cutting will be lost. It is important to realize that ANY MOLD that grows on any cutting is removing vital energy reserves that are no longer available to the cutting for root and leaf formation. That is why it is important to use methods and procedures that keep mold from forming in the first place. I have given good advice earlier in this thread in how to do just that.

Also, as teaching to newbies......some cuttings will form "barking" (white powdery stuff) along the length of the cutting. It is white in appearance and should not be confused with mold. When I see it on my baggie cuttings, I simply remove the barking with a gently swipe of a toothbrush (no Clorox needed because IT IS NOT MOLD). Barking should be removed when found upon opening the paper towel......because it holds too much "uncontrolled" moisture that can later be problematic during the rooting process.

Dan


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

Thanks Dan,
To update: still mold even with the cinnamon (although not as much) and one mushy (thrown away). These are only a few of the cuttings. The rest did not mold and are slowly progressing, some with roots, some with leaf buds or leaves, some with both and others look intact but have done nothing visible so far. I don't know how or why the the first named group acquired mold. Maybe they came with it.
I had a question though. This year I used the zip storage bags whereas last year I used the freezer bags. Could the storage bags let in not only more air but also more mold? There are certainly other possible explanations for more mold this year than last, among them the cuttings were older, from somewhere else and probably kept cooler for longer. Still it is an interesting question.
Cath


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

No, the use of storage bags rather than a freezer bag had nothing to do with your mold outbreaks this year. Look for a cause in "how" the cuttings were stored or the "condition" of the cuttings at the time they were taken and handled in route to you. Improper storage methods of fig cuttings prior to rooting is often the cause of molding problems during the subsequent rooting process. Remember that mold can form on cuttings even in your refrigerator (<40 F).....and reach the cambium layer during storage. It is important that you not allow any excessive "uncontrolled" moisture condensation to directly contact your cuttings (especially on bud tips) during storage. Store them in a "freezer" type bag to minimize evaporative losses through the bag and put a dry paper towel inside of the bag should you see much consensation forming on the baggie's interior wall surface.

Dan


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on
    Fri, May 7, 10 at 15:13

Cathy - There are many common molds/fungi that attack cuttings. Often, if not usually, the cuttings are infected with any one of a number of common pathogens. Some that come to mind you may have heard of in discussions about damping-off or soil borne diseases in discussions about tomatoes or cucurbits. Pythium and its pals Rhizoctonia and Phytophthora, Fusarium (wilt), Botrytis, Sclerotinia, are just the few that come to mind. All of these pathogens are very likely to be inherent in any unsterile medium, such as a potting soil. It's not surprising that problems arise, even when you attempt to 'sterilize' the cuttings prior to sticking. These diseases are very tenacious - so much so that even industry standard fungicides like Physan 20 (not for food crops) and other fungicides are considered preventative rather than fixative. They help to keep fungal issues from getting a toe holds, rather than eradicating the disease once established.

You cannot surgically remove fungal infections on plants. The evidence you see are the fruiting bodies of millions of spores. The 'mold' you see is most likely Botrytis cinerea - also known as gray mold. It is extremely common whenever relative humidity is above 85% and air movement minimal, as this environment provides perfect conditions for organogenesis of the disease, and cuttings are particularly susceptible to infection. Spores require cool temperatures (45-60 F.) and, as noted, high humidity to germinate, so keeping your cuttings below 40* while in storage and above 65* when rooting, and establishing air circulation while keeping humidity lower would be helpful.

Germinating spores rarely penetrate green, healthy tissue directly, but can enter through wounds on growing plants. The problem with these pathogens is NOT that they out-compete the potential roots for available carbohydrates; rather, the issue is that the pathogens destroy tissues essential to the establishment of vascular connections between roots and shoots - the most critical stage of determining whether a cutting has a chance at viability. The potential for establishing this connection would have been destroyed long before the pathogen would have made significant inroads into the depletion of energy reserves.

Rather than totally trusting a home concoction to eliminate these disease traces and then turn right around and use a medium that is full of the diseases, you might wish to consider a product like "Mycostop" and a sterile medium. Mycostop is an organic fungicide, effective in the prevention of Pythium, Fusarium, Botrytis, Alternaria, Phomopsis, Rhizoctonia and Phytophthora. It's particularly effective against Fusarium, another cutting killer.

Al


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

Dan,
Forgive me for not seeing it if you posted it because I did not read this whole thread but would it be safe to just snip off the tip if it shows SOME mold?

I have Panache cuttings ( three total )and trying very hard to succeed with at least one this year. Failed last year due to lack of knowledge. I have them in 20oz. cups and in the mini greenhouse that I open the cover for a few hours a day everyday. One of them was removed from the mini greenhouse for a couple of days because it was showing some good growth ( roots and leaves )but started to change on me. now it has some mold on the tip. I did remove the leaves to help with the rooting process.

Rafed


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

Rafed,

It depends......sometimes the mold is only growing on the emerging leaf itself. Often it is due to condensation that damaged the tiny tender leaf itself and it can be easily removed and no longer be a problem.

cath41,

I have given some good advice and information that anyone can easily verify for themselves. The proof will be in the final results that you achieve.

Dan


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

Here is a trivia 'fungus' fact (not related to figs)...
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/enviro/EnviroRepublish_828525.htm

Here is a link that might be useful: Humungous fungus: world's largest organism?


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

There is no such thing as a "sterile" rooting medium....unless it was autoclaved. Those mediums that are devoid of available nutrients and organics are erroneously referred to as sterile. But not to worry, non-sterile mediums like UPM/perlite which has available nutrients in it, work just fine for rooting figs. If proper procedures are followed, mold will not be an issue with ANY rooting mix or rooting environment. As stated earlier in this thread, it takes three things for mold to form.....remove any one of them and mold simply WILL NOT form. The "mold triangle" is just as applicable as the "fire triangle" we firefighters are taught in our training. Anyone who has had fire training knows exactly what I mean.

Dan


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on
    Fri, May 7, 10 at 22:00

Let me see ..... do I want to use an unsterilized potting soil with all the fungaluglies mentioned above virtually guaranteed to be included for the ride, or do I want to take my chances on superbly aerated mediums that were created by super-heating in ovens at temperatures greater than 1,600* F.? (Close enough to an autoclave?) Tough call, but I'll go with the perlite or Turface.

While figs often root very well in unsterile mediums, we would be wise to keep this thought in the back of our minds: They are not rooting in these mediums BECAUSE of the medium, they are rooting in these mediums in spite of them. When any of you venture farther into the world of propagation and start experimenting with cuttings that need coaxing instead of cuttings that beg you to let them root in something, you'll immediately see the problems associated with potting soils as a rooting medium, as told by a plummeting success rate.

FWIW - cleanliness (keeping the area pathogen-free) is so important to commercial operations that if a bag of potting soil were to be found anywhere near the propagating house, the person responsible would likely be fired on the spot. Entities whose livelihood depends on propagating successes usually have teams that not only ensure all phases of the propagation process are pathogen-free, but they also test and ensure that the parent material is pathogen-free, commonly treating them with systemic fungicides in the week or two before the cuttings are even taken.

I'm waiting for someone to tell me what the reasoning is behind disinfecting a cutting, then enclosing it in a container filled with a medium carrying the spores of multiple fungal/bacterial pathogens, and then providing the perfect environment for those pathogens to prosper?

Al


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

Anyone who has ACTUALLY READ and tried to understand my posts on the fig cutting cleaning & storage procedures and who has actually read the "details" of my writings on rooting methods ....should already know WHY it is important to clean cuttings. I have absolutely no desire to repeat any of the details again for the sake of argument. Anyone who really desires to know why......perform a search function on my GW user-name and Clorox and you should find my posts on this matter. Those posts will lead to other good posts written by other forum members.

Too, I don't really care what the so called professional rooters do. I know what works very well for me and am working on propagation methods that may well be of interest to them. Funny how some people want to criticize and seek fault rather than try to really understand alternate methods that achieve very high success rates.......with success measured in the number of fully harden off fig trees and not simply measured by the number of cuttings that manage to grow some roots. What I have suggested is practical, very simple (requires no special equipment...like those terrible heating pads, or expensive green houses), and consistently yields very good results. What I have posted is sound and easily reproduced by anyone. Anyone who desires to reduce or completely eliminate mold problems during fig rooting, should consider doing some of the things that I have suggested......simply because THEY WORK real well. Temperature, atmospheric pressure, absolute humidity, relative humidity, moisture, air (oxygen), cutting quality, and rooting environment are some of the variables that affect rooting success and potential molding issues. Most of these parameters are quite easy to control or manipulate to your advantage..... if you know how. It really is not that complicated.

At least, I have been kind enough to share some of my thoughts,ideas, experiences, research data, methods, and techniques....we sure can't say that about everybody.

Dan


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

Forgot to conclude my above post with this special tidbit....

Those who REALLY WANT to know how to greatly reduce or completely eliminate mold should strive to understand the "mold triangle" concept that I have introduced to this forum. You will not find information about this anywhere as the mold triangle is a concept that I developed. To understand this concept Goggle "fire triangle" and read on wikipedia how this "tool" is used to develop strategies to eliminate or fight fires.

After reading about the "fire triangle" you will learn that there are three things needed to form a fire.......remove any one of those and you will not have a fire. Now replace "oxygen, heat, and fuel" in the fire triangle with "food, micro organisms, and moisture" and you now have what I call the "mold triangle". This tool came out of my fig related research activities where I used another scientific tool....known as "root cause analysis" to improve my fig rooting methods. Google "root cause analysis" and you will learn how we scientist go about solving very complex problems using this simple technique. Try to understand the "mold triangle" and you too can greatly eliminate or entirely reduce mold when rooting your fig cuttings.

If you don't Google like I suggested, then you probably will have no idea what the heck I am talking about....your choice. However, if you really want to learn about a tool that can help you eliminate mold......you just might want to give it a try. I have absolutely no intentions of getting into another argument with another nit picker. This information is free and if you don't believe in the concept for whatever reason.....then you are free to completely ignore it. I will go into much greater detail when I do publish my work and that will not be free.

Dan


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

  • Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on
    Sat, May 8, 10 at 11:40

All I need to say is that if I offer something for consideration and it gets questioned, I'm ALWAYS at the ready to explain how I arrived at my conclusions and to support them with facts. I never need to resort to conferring lofty titles on myself or obfuscation in the hope that someone will believe me. You had the opportunity to counter any of the several points I made, that unless answered illustrate a lack of command of the topic at hand. You choose not to get involved in the meat of the issue, instead introducing as arguments secondary and tertiary issues that have absolutely no bearing on the discussion.

You can't just keep saying "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" or "It works for me, so don't question anything I say". You can't continue to disagree at every turn on multiple issues with thousands of degreed horticulturists, many of them PhDs and say you don't care what they think or do. You either skip over or ignore the many links and references I've provided in support of the information I've used to illustrate the errors and inconsistencies in the things you offer. Remember - you have no corner on experience in the horticultural arena.

I'm not a fool, and I have a very analytical, scientific mind, but I would never be so presumptuous as to discount the findings of those that are truly learned in favor of my own unproven observations; this, even in the face of my many years of study and experience. It's easy to claim you have the goods, but you lose all credibility when you can't put up when you really need to.

"It works for me" is impossible to qualify, and about as weak an argument as you can present, especially when a hypothesis is being directly questioned; and no scientist would ever, ever use it in defense of anything he says or does.

Al


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

As I've clearly stated.......

"I have absolutely no intentions of getting into another argument with another nit picker. This information is free and if you don't believe in the concept for whatever reason.....then you are free to completely ignore it."

Dan


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

I used the cinnamon not only to treat mold but also because it might inhibit FMV. I remembered reading that cinnamon is an anticancer agent. I checked Pubmed and recent abstracts confirm this. Also jmsimpson said that he used it on cut surfaces of his orchids. Orchids are very sensitive to virus. If cinnamon is antiviral generally and not just cancer specific, it might inhibit FMV which is believed to inhibit rooting.
Cath


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

  • Posted by gorgi z6b NJ (My Page) on
    Mon, May 10, 10 at 13:17

More and more creative name-calling... When is this going to end?!


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

Cath,

Personally, I am always open to new ideas and really appreciate the efforts of those who try alternate methods and approaches to solving problems. Sometimes it takes a brave soul to post such ideas on this forum. Good luck with your experiments.

Dan


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

How Bout Them Figs???
Just some thing to reflect upon This was sent to me and I would like to pass it on
With All the Best Intentions
Sal

NAILS IN THE FENCE

Make sure you read all the way down to the last sentence. (Most importantly the last sentence)


There once was a little boy who had a bad temper. His Father gave him a bag of nails and

told him that every time he lost his temper, he must hammer a nail into the back of the fence.

The first day the boy had driven 37 nails into the fence. Over the next few weeks, as he
learned to control his anger, the number of nails hammered daily gradually dwindled down.
He discovered it was easier to hold his temper than to drive those nails into the fence.
Finally the day came when the boy didn't lose his temper at all. He told his father about it and the
father suggested that the boy now pull out one nail for each day that he was able to hold his temper.

The days passed and the young boy was finally able to tell his father that all the nails were gone.

The father took his son by the hand and led him to the fence. He said, 'You have done well, my
son, but look at the holes in the fence. The fence will never be the same. When you say things
in anger, they leave a scar just like this one. You can put a knife in a man and draw it out. But It

won't matter how many times you say I'm sorry, the wound will still be there. A verbal wound is as
bad as a physical one.

Remember that friends are very rare jewels indeed. They make you smile and encourage you to
succeed; They lend an ear, they share words of praise and they always want to open their hearts to
it to you! If it comes back to you, you will then know you have a circle of friends.

YOU ARE MY FRIENDS AND I AM HONORED!


Please forgive me if I have ever left a 'hole' in your fence.


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RE: Saving cutting from mold - Pastiliere

so like… diluted hydrogen peroxide or diluted bleach with a cotton swab will do the trick or…?


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