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fig propagation

Posted by stepandfetch 7b (My Page) on
Tue, Dec 1, 09 at 0:53

First let me begin my first post by saying this is the finest fig forum on the internet.... I would be completely lost without it.
I love figs, and within the previous two months I have bought my first two trees- Celeste and an unusually tasty Brown Turkey.

Well, the last fig on my list for my piedmont, NC garden is a yellow/green fig. A friend of mine has a large yellow fig tree- it is most likely Kadota, but it could be Alma or Blanche.

Whatever it is, it produces very fine figs.

Unfortunately, he thought it was best to severely prune a fig tree every fall... and when I say severely prune, I mean cut it down to the ground. Once I found out about this, I immediately asked for cuttings. I ended up with over 12 tip cuttings- mostly from what was left at the stumps- suckers and last seasons low twigs that never saw the sun... (until now).

So.. this is my first attempt at propagating, and propagating earlier than recommended unfortunately....

I used fine perlite and sphagnum moss (not peat) for rooting medium. With a pair of scissors, I chopped the sphagnum into smaller pieces, and combined equal proportions of perlite and moss. I used clear plastic cups with 5-6 holes drilled into the bottoms.

With a sharp and clean razor blade, I about .5" off the bottoms- right below the lowest node/leaf site. I cut into the twig at a 45 degree angle and then thinly cut most of the skin off the cutting up about one inch from the bottom.

Now here is where I might have made a mistake.
For most of the cuttings, I dipped the bottom inch into rootone before planting in cups.

Since this was my first time and I had many cuttings, I made some variations to some of the cuttings to find what particulars work best.

For 6 of the cuttings, I prepared them like how I previously mentioned- I cut all of the skin from the lowest node and from the leaf site. There were no green buds present at the lowest nodes.

For 3 additional cuttings, I did not cut so much of the skin off, and I left most of the skin surrounding the nodes intact.

For 3 additional cuttings, I did not remove any skin.

For 2 additional cuttings, I did not apply rootone.

Later this week I will take some more cuttings (none will be tip cuttings) and will apply your advice to further increase my success rate.

Does anyone know any rooting/ young growth particulars of Kadota? Do they root easily? How quickly?

My house's room temp is around 65... do I need a heating pad?

The relative humidity this fall has hung around the mid 70%...do I need to put bags over the cups?

Any suggestions or comments would be MUCH appreciated.

Thanks


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: fig propagation

Welcome Stepandfetch, if you'll read Dan's post under "when to give up on cuttings", a lot of your questions will be answered.Providing humidity of some sort is necessary and a clear plastic bin is just easier than a plastic bag in my experience. I've never heard of anyone stripping bark off a cutting(only when airlayering a plant), but they may still root. I hope you cleaned them properly first, also. I'm sure others will chime in. Tim


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RE: fig propagation

I have stripped bark and they rooted fine. The only reason is that is the way my Uncle did it. Others would crush the end with a rock or hammer and then sick it in dirt again some would do nothing other than put it in dirt. I've posted this before but I think this is the first time I read someone else who has stripped the bottom portion. May I ask what or who gave you that idea? Just curious. I really don't know if it helps or hinders maybe the more experienced can way in on this. Still learning
Sal


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RE: fig propagation

I only stripped the bottom .5- 1 inch or so... I got the idea from previous gardening experience.... it usually worked with other plants.

It seems logical to strip a bit of the bark- considering (from what I have seen) that most of the roots grow where the pulp is exposed.

If I can get my hands on some more of those cuttings, I will not strip any bark and I will not use Rootone.. just to see what happens.

The cuttings for this season are more of an experiment than anything else. Hopefully, though, with 13 cuttings the odds will be in my favor!

What do you guys think about my rooting medium? From looking into the cup, the mix stays wet, does not hold water, and is full of air pockets... thoughts?

thanks


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RE: fig propagation

I've never found rootone necessary. Most say it promotes rot. I probably would have chosen coarse perlite instead of fine. You especially want to watch your moisture in the medium that it's just damp, not wet. If you use a plastic bag on top, be sure that the bag doesn't touch the cuttings, or they will rot. There are lots of ways to root figs and I'm sure with 13 cuttings, you'll have some success. I myself have had the greatest success using Dan's Improved Baggie Method . Good luck. Tim


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RE: fig propagation

It can be a lot of fun experimenting with different fig propagation methods. I know I've done my share of experimenting with different rooting methods and will definitely be experimenting with some promising new techniques in a few more weeks. One can always learn from trial and error and that's OK if you have a good supply of cuttings.

Your mix is probably a very light and airy mix; however, it is an "inert" mixture that won't provide much if any nutrients at all to your cuttings. You are starting your cuttings off very early in the season and will find that you will have to nurse them until warm weather arrives. IMO you would have a better chance if you had them in a mix that could provide some nutrients to your cutting. I much prefer a nutrient rich rooting mix of 50% perlite (not vermiculite) and 50% potting soil......that way I can keep them growing in their rooting cups for a longer period of time if it is needed.

Remember that getting roots to form on your cuttings is only half the battle...you will need to eventually move them into a permanent potting mix and then harden off both the roots and leaves. By rooting in a mix which can provide necessary nutrients (i.e. not inert) you will find that you will get stronger roots to form that are much better able to survive the next step in the rooting process......hardening off your new plants to full sunlight. For me a rooting mix of perlite/pottting soil works best.....use Fertilome's Ultimate Potting Mix (UPM) if you can find it and you will be amazed at the root system that develops in that mix and your success rate will significantly increase.

You will find that rooting hormone is not necessary and the powdered stuff can often cause rot as it holds too much moisture. Also, you will find that cuttings do best when you keep them at a consistent temperature (i.e. room temperature) and do not apply any outside heating source to them (sunlight, radiator, heating pad, hot water heater, etc.). Heating your baggies and/or your rooting cups with these devices often will cause internal condensation to occur due to the uneven heating that occurs which then leads to mold and rot. Save your heating pad for other uses. Also, be sure to keep your baggies and/or your rooting cups in a closed plastic container during the rooting process and you will attain a higher success rate......that is because of both the temperature stabilization and humidity equalization that the closed box provides......trust me on this.....I've already done considerable hands-on research.

Have fun with your experiments and thanks for sharing your ideas.

Dan


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RE: fig propagation

Dan have you ever striped bark off and if so can you share your observations good and bad?
Sal


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RE: fig propagation

thanks a lot... I may have access to many cuttings in early spring, but I wasn't sure so I went ahead and cut 12 tips.

The cups are only 2/3 full... could I fill in the rest with perlite/ potting soil?

With the Rootone- I only used a very light coating on the exposed ends, so maybe I can escape the negative effects?

Thanks again.


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RE: fig propagation

Sal,

I did not see any advantage to bark stripping or crushing the bottom end of a fig cutting. There is already enough sap flow towards the normal "surgical" cut on a fig cutting for it to form a nice callus and promote the rooting signal to the twig.

You may recall I had posted a thread on the figs4fun forum entitled "How to Jump Start a Failed Cutting". If you have read that thread before I deleted it, you might recall that I used special surgical cuts into the skin and along the cutting in order to redirect the energy flow of the cuttings. That technique can be used to advantage when rooting and will be one area of my research this coming rooting season.

Dan


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RE: fig propagation

Dan, Since I missed your post on "Jump Starting...", if you don't mind would you explain what do you mean by "surgical cuts" Would that be cuts through the bark around the perimeter of the cutting or something like that. What is the purpose or theory behind it. It sure sounds interesting. Thanks in advance.

From the bayou,
"gene"


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RE: fig propagation

Hello Gene,

One can direct the energy of a cutting in a similar manner to what one does to buds on a growing tree branch by cutting into the cambium layer. I have found that you can partially cut below a node on a struggling cutting and sometimes trigger a rooting response around that new cut.....while still saving some of the stored energy that is below that cut. This can be useful to jump start a slow rooting cutting and/or to get multiple nodes to form roots.

I'm deep into fig propagation research and closing in on a reliable single node rooting process....one of the goals of my research. Some of the techniques that I am using are very innovative and may well be the subject of a publication one day. Much of what I am doing is not necessary for most people to successfully root their cuttings. In my past postings on figs4fun I have given a lot of technical reasons why certain procedures worked well and others failed.....but, that seemed to confuse and anger some people more than it helped. I will try not to confuse people with my posts on this forum. I attain a high success rate of turning twigs into trees....so I know my suggestions are valid. However, there are many ways to produce new fig trees......the best technique is whatever produces satisfactory results for you.

I hope that your cuttings are still making good progress. I will be starting a few hundred of mine in early January.

Did you hear that a weather pattern is developing where we may have sleet and/or snow later this week? When snow comes to Louisiana, we Cajuns find it just another reason to party.

Dan


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RE: fig propagation

Dan that is good for me. People thought the world was flat at one time.

About the sleet and snow later in the week. I heard the devil is getting worried because hell is starting to cool off. Remember the saying "hell will freeze over before the Saints go the the Superbowl". Haha, that might be the reason for the sleet and/or snow.

From the bayou,
"gene"


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RE: fig propagation

You got it Gene........I hadn't made the connection between our weather and the Saints until you pointed it out. Maybe hell is now freezing over. Those "Who Dats" will literally go nuts after the Saints win the Superbowl this year. Only took 'em 43 years to have a winning team.

FYI...I thought of you when I was in Baton Rouge yesterday. I stopped by "Fresh Pickin's" which is my favorite fruit and vegetable stand in the whole wide world. I saw they had bottles of "fig syrup" for sale. It is made from just fig juice and sugars. I recalled one of your posts where you savored the remaining fig syrup from your last empty jar of fig preserves.

Dan


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RE: fig propagation

DAN, where is Fresh Pickin's? I think I ran into it once but can't seem to remember where. I can never pass up a fruit stand, you just never know what you'll find there.

"gene"


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RE: fig propagation

Constant defaming/bashing of any forum is very unhealthy,
and should be avoided.


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RE: fig propagation

Gene,

It is located on the corner of Cedarcrest and Coursey. That is where I purchased some fig trees a few years ago. A few varieties available back then were unknown to me. The following year I contacted the owner of Fresh Pickin's and traced the source of those trees to James Robin. I then went several times to JR's place and purchased a few more trees from him. On one visit I discovered his Sicilian Black. With his permission I posted info about this fig and his contact information on this forum. Now you know the story of how JR's small business was "outed" on the GW fig forum.

....also, there were no fig trees for sale at FP on my last visit. But, they have some really nice Black Mission fig trees at the Plant Tech Nursery on Airline Highway just before you get into Baton Rouge. Those trees come from a very reliable Louisiana source.

Dan


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RE: fig propagation

@Dan, no hard feelings, but I am saddened that it was necessary to take away information from the entire community because of dispute with other individuals. Still, I am sure you have your reasons for such actions.

I feel fortunate and happy that the almighty Google has cached much information, including many of the posts which you've chosen to delete, including this one, this one and this one

I will keep digging until I am able to find the post you have deleted about jumpstarting cuttings and post it here when I am able. I'm sure it's cached out there somewhere.


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RE: fig propagation

From what I hear (elsewhere), JR is doing very well
(hard keeping up with his fig demand),
thanks for him being a very honest/straight mind-forward man.


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RE: got it....

As promised, here is the helpful information that Dan removed from the F4F forum: Method for Saving a Stubborn Cutting

I hope all of the others like me who are eager to learn are helped by this. I am taking a PDF of as many posts as I can find for the sake of not losing good technical information like this!

Here is a link that might be useful: Method for Saving a Stubborn Cutting


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RE: fig propagation

Yep, those are my posts alright. Dig around enough and you will eventually see why I deleted them. Please do not post any more of my threads or posts that I have deleted.....I have my reasons which I will not make public on this forum. I will contact GW administration if I see links posted to anymore of my deleted material. Enjoy those you have already posted. Thanks.

Dan


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RE: fig propagation

@Dan, will you be re-posting this data anywhere else? Many of us who are not "tied" to any clique/forum and had nothing to do with that are interested in the material and results of your research. Deletion is making it hard on us newbies!


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RE: fig propagation

satellitehead

Just exactly what is it you are trying to prove?

that you have the knowledge to do a search using Google
or maybe "how to make enemy's"?

Cecil


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RE: fig propagation

I may be publishing some of my work one day.....some of what I am working on is some really neat innovative stuff that I am not quite ready to share. If you find my posts useful and interesting (and that's what they are meant to be), then visit the GW forum often 'cause I will be posting similar material here.

I know how to retrieve old posts too and I've kept copies of all that I have written and/or deleted. The figs4fun forum rules allowed me to delete them.....please respect my right to do so. I do not want to see any more of my deleted posts appearing on any fig forum.

I hope some readers do get some usable information on the "Improved Baggie Method" that you have resurrected. That old thread is quite timely at this time of the year. Enjoy that old thread....there is some really good information in it.

Dan


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RE: fig propagation methods

.........here's a link to my old "Improved Baggie Method" thread that was resurrected.

Here is a link that might be useful: Improved Baggie Method for propagating figs.


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RE: fig propagation

What about the forever fresh bags that they advertise as keeping your produce fresh? Any ideas on whether they are better for storing or rooting?

I only buy freezer bags because they can be used for freezing or storage. I have had bad luck rooting the figs in bags - I'll make sure I get regular bags the next time I'm at the store to try.

Lisa


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RE: fig propagation

If you have had bad luck rooting in a bag, let me assure you it was not because of the type bag that you used. Pay close attention to the details of what I have written and the method will work just fine for you.

I have received numerous emails from forum members with questions regarding rooting failures. Here is a typical response to those emails that some might find timely and helpful..........


"It is important that you FIRST clean your cuttings with some Dawn Anti-Bacterial ( anti-bacterial is important) dish-washing soap dissolved in warm water using a toothbrush (important to scrub). Scrubbing will not harm your cutting. Then rinse them (important) in clean tap water. Finally, clean them in the dilute bleach solutionagain using a toothbrush (do not let them soak...soaking can bleach the wood)......then let them air dry (do not rinse). The order in which you clean them is important..use soap first and bleach last. Cuttings should be cleaned soon after they are taken..if not , mold can quickly set in and infect your cuttings depending on your method of storage. If stored for any period of time..they should be cleaned again just before attempting to root them."


"Also, did you put the baggies in a closed plastic box (this is important)? Did you keep it at room temperature? Did you use a heating pad or deliberately put it near a heat source (not a good ideathis causes mold). Did you open your baggies daily (equalizes temperature,lets oxygen in, and stabilizes internal humidity) to check for mold , towel dampness, and root initials? Did you see any liquid moisture on your cuttings (not a good sign) when you unwrapped them daily? Did you change both the baggie and paper towel after you saw mold and re-cleaned them? Did you measure the Clorox (1 part) and water (9 parts) when you made the solution (important)? If you followed these suggestions you should not have seen any mold..but you did and Id like to understand why. Soplease respond and advise if you may have deviated from these suggestions..that way I can learn from your experience too."


"Mold is best handled by PREVENTION because once you see it, it is very hard to kill and the cuttings suffer from a loss of energy due to the mold growth..so rooting success rate suffers."

Pay attention to those seemingly minor details and you too will be successful.

Dan


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RE: fig propagation

Thanks Dan on the location of Fresh Pickin's. I drove within a block of there on Saturday. I'll have to check them out.

One question on propagation, once cuttings are started and have been harden off to be outside of the containers, how much of a temperature swing can they tolerate. As you know here in La. one day it can be upper 30's and the next day be in the mid to upper 70's. Does this present a problem to young trees. I would to like to move them outside as they harden off with the idea of bringing them inside on days of frost or freeze.

Thanks,
"gene"


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RE: fig propagation

Hi Gene,

Once they are completely harden-off to full sunlight and normal waterings then allowed to go dormant....they will be fine unless we get a hard freeze. I move my young plants into a non-heated garage whenever a freeze is forecasted for our area.

As you well know, south Louisiana's outside winter temperatures fluctuate so much that often dormant figs trees will bud out way too early. Those new buds are easily damaged by even a light frost. They become even more susceptible to even light freezes. Those warm/cold cycling temperatures that we have in the winter can easily kill young fig trees...as it forces young trees to go in and out of dormancy with these reoccurring temperature cycles. A young tree cannot tolerate too many of those in-and-out dormancy cycles........it drains way too much energy reserves from the tree. The result is often death....even the roots. I have seen a large Black Mission tree die from such temperature cycles.....that's why I let my Mission tree grow in a bush form.

So..........I strive to get my young trees to go dormant and stay dormant (no fertilizer in late summer, cut back on water, and keep on north side of the house). Should they bud out again, I give them added protection from any frost or freezes (keep on south side of the house and move into unheated garage only on days/night where frost and/or freeze is forecasted).

Dan


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RE: fig propagation

Dan, once again thanks a lot. That was just about what I was going to try to do.

"gene"


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RE: fig propagation

Thanks Dan,

That even helps some of us on the West side of the Sabine River!

Cecil


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RE: fig propagation

Cecil, you mean there is something west of Louisiana. Ha.

"gene"


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RE: fig propagation

Hi Gene

Yes Siree there is something on the West side of the Sabine

But I better not put it in print!

Regards
Cecil


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RE: fig propagation

Dan... thanks for your help,ive never grown anything like
figs before. Thanks for your expert help. Mike


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RE: fig propagation

Mike,

I am glad that you find my posts helpful......that certainly is my intent. I love nothing better than to see all have good success with their fig rooting attempts with whatever method they choose to use. I am not in the business of selling cuttings or trees. My experience has led me to a couple of very reliable methods which produce high success rates for me; however, I am always open to better techniques.

Dan


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RE: fig propagation

dear dan..when i was a boy my uncle planted a branch from a fig tree 3 feet he put some horse manure on it during thr summer a small tree started up from the ground. Have you ever herd of this type of planting fig branches. My brother told me of a friend on long island who has a fig tree inside his business growing in a huge pot with only lime pellets as the soil. Is this possible ? I have 8 fig trees 3 are 4 or 5 years old some branches 3 foot tall and some 12 to 18 inches tall. should i cut them to make new plants or try to get the roots with the branches and plant them ? I hope i don't confuse you. Thank you for your love for nature. Mike


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RE: fig propagation

Is there any reason why you can't just stick the cutting in the ground where it will grow? I've started grapevines and olive trees and citrus that way. I never put anything in bags or vermiculite. Just dirt in a shady place. I should receive my order from UC Davis this spring, and I included some Figs in it. Figs look like they should be easy to propagate, especially with all their suckers. My olives were started from suckers. 2 out of 10 made it, and they are baby trees now. So, why can't you just stick the cuttings in plain old dirt? Am I missing something?


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RE: fig propagation

Mike,

Yes, I have heard of planting fig branches in order to propagate a new tree. Some of the old timers in my area will stick fig cuttings in containers of plain old dirt and just put the containers outside in the shade under a tree all summer long. Many will root just fine in our humid climate.

There are a couple of different ways you can propagate your fig trees. You can air layer your branches....which is very easy to do and you are almost guaranteed to succeed. You would do your air-layering in early spring. Do a fig forum search on air layering and you will find several threads that will give you good information and some pictures on how to do that. You can also plant any tree sprouts (like you mentioned) that come up from below the soil surface. When taking sprouts try to cut real close to the mother tree...if the sprout has some roots on it, they are likely to do well. You can also take cuttings from the top branches & tips and root them too. Many forum members are rooting tip cuttings right now. There are many threads and posts that give directions on how to do that too.

I hope that you succeed in propagating your trees and at some point you tell us a bit more about the figs that you are growing. We really enjoy hearing reports from the different growing areas. If you need further help or clarifications in propagating your trees...just ask. Many on this forum will gladly help you.

Dan


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Green Cuttings vs Dormant

Thanks for that post Dan! When I rooted my vines, citrus and olives in the ground in plain old dirt, it was from green cuttings and in early summer. The dormant cuttings may need different treatment?

I have one unknown Fig that I purchased from Gurneys last year. It's in a container, on the vineyard drip system, and grew well. On order from UC Davis I have Violette De Bordeaux and Panachee. Fingers crossed they fill my order. I got it in last June. First come, first served, they say.

So do dormant cuttings need different treatment than green softwood cuttings?

thanks!


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RE: fig propagation methods

desertdance,

.......looks like we were posting at the same time. It is easy to root figs as you describe, but the success rate varies considerably. When one has a very rare cultivar or only one cutting to work with.......it is preferable to use a propagation method that employs good science into it to increase the likelihood of propagating a new tree. The best propagation method for each individual depends on what works well for them and their desired end results. Most of the time I want as many cuttings as possible to turn into nice trees in gallon containers........so I use methods that are quite a bit more reliable than the "sticking in the ground" method. However, both methods will work....

Dan


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RE: fig propagation

desertdance,

..........cross posting again ...LOL.

I attain about the same (slightly less) success rate with both dormant and green (growing or summer) fig cuttings. The only thing that I do different with the green cuttings........I cut the "leaves" off right at the point where it meets with the stems. I do not cut off the stems. I then put these in plastic bags (with a dry towel inside if I see too much condensation) and keep them in the refrigerator until the stems fall off.....then root them as usual...for me that's by the improved baggie method.

Dan


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RE: fig propagation

Hello,
I am from North Carolina Piedmont Triad Area. I was wondering if anyone has extra cuttings to spare. I do have Celeste tree and I am willing to share its cuttings. I do hope my fig plant survives as we have had v.cold weather like 12-14 deg. F. Looking forward to hearing from you.

thanks


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RE: fig propagation

A note about air layering, which danab mentioned.

I'm very novice, but this is the most reliable and successful method I've tried.

I managed to root four out of five layerings last year. The one that I lost was the first I tried. It developed nice roots but I handled it too roughly and broke off many of the roots after cutting off the stem and removing the plastic wrap and ties. I learned the hard way, but the next four were very successful, and I have them acclimating to outdoor weather now.

What I would mention is that I layered several times throughout the summer, late into the season. Danab mentioned using this method in the spring. I'm not sure if late summer air layering will have a detrimental effect on the mother plant. I'll see what happens this year as my plant comes out of dormancy and develops fruit...it's in-ground and we have been above freezing at night for the past week or so.

Good luck.


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RE: fig propagation

Question for Dan (or anyone):

I just removed a rooted fig cutting from a baggie that had been sitting for only about a week. I potted it in a small container with nothing but perlite to allow for further root development before transplanting to a final potting mix. I saw you mentioned that perlite is an inert (no-nutrient) medium, so I was wondering if I should re-pot this cutting in a 1:1 mix of potting soil and perlite or if it will keep developing roots as it is. If I keep it in the perlite, should I feed it something occasionally or just maintain humidity?

Thanks!


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RE: fig propagation

I have noted on this forum many times before the method my Sicilian grandfather taught me back in the 50s. He would take a cutting approx. 8 to 10 inches long and shave the bark from the bottom 4 inches. He stuck it in a pot of unimproved soil, and I swear I never remember one not rooting. Since there were always plenty of cuttings, he selected only cuttings with a terminal bud. I've done it this way since the 70s with very few "misses".
Good Luck!


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RE: fig propagation

I just returned from Cotona Italy and a great time was had by all. On our property was this huge fig tree. At least 50 inch dbh and the figs were plentiful. Being new to this region I assumed all figs were not ripe because of their green yellow color. Closer inspection I observed a clear nectorlike dripping out of the larger figs. I had to eat one. When I did it was almost an out of body experience. Every morning for a week as I had my morning coffee I would gorge on these sweet treats. I smuggled 4 rooted sprigs home without telling my wife. Not sure what I have but they are growing well after wintering them. Looking forward to making many more from these and giving as gifts. New to forum but have fallen in love with figs.


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RE: fig propagation

Rusty, welcome to the fig forum. You've probably been infected with a fig virus and don't know it. If the condition worsens, you will just have to continue to acquire and grow more trees, ha. Sounds like you've got yourself a nice variety if it's a common fig. If it's one that need pollination, it will not make eatable figs unless you're in Southern Ca where the fig wasp lives. I hope it all works out for you.
"gene"


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RE: fig propagation

I just returned from Cotona Italy and a great time was had by all. On our property was this huge fig tree. At least 50 inch dbh and the figs were plentiful. Being new to this region I assumed all figs were not ripe because of their green yellow color. Closer inspection I observed a clear nectorlike dripping out of the larger figs. I had to eat one. When I did it was almost an out of body experience. Every morning for a week as I had my morning coffee I would gorge on these sweet treats. I smuggled 4 rooted sprigs home without telling my wife. Not sure what I have but they are growing well after wintering them. Looking forward to making many more from these and giving as gifts. New to forum but have fallen in love with figs.


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RE: fig propagation

Thanks for the worm welcome. I do hope it is self pollination plant. Does it matter if I have more than one or could it require a special insect? I have 2 separate plants that I split into three. If not I will eat the leaves. Ha.


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RE: fig propagation

Anyone have cuttings to share? I only have one variety (Chicago) that I got from Lowes 3 years ago which is now on a container. Zone 5 Michigan. I finally read up on how to root cuttings and would appreciate anyone there who has other varieties to spare. Please let me know. My email is eurocars_mb@yahoo.com.

I don't know how old these posts are bc they do not have the year in the dates.

Thanks in advance.


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