I sort of agree with you and don't agree with you all at the same time. I don't think there is a simple solution, but for starters I don't think the poorest of the poor should live in a very vulnerable area - for the exact reason we have right now.

Granted beach property is a valuable commodity, but take Captiva Island last year. We the taxpayers aren't re-building it, nor was anybody in need of rescue there. These people have money, insurance and think nothing of staying in a hotel for a few months.

On the other hand what if Captiva Island had one of Florida's poorest neighborhoods? Lives would have been lost and it would be costing us billions.

Gulfport and Biloxi were flattened, but they are not going to cost the taxpayers anywhere near what New Orleans is. Why? insurance

My point is a very vulnerable area, especially below sea level is NOT an area for people to live who are on very limited incomes.

On the other hand, it is a very valid argument to say these people should not be forced to move from an area they have lived in for generations. My answer is that's fine and dandy, if you are not asking me the taxpayer to rebuild it.

Now you get into the argument, these people can't help if they're poor. Yes and no - education and NOT having children when you CAN'T afford to take care of YOURSELF goes along way to improving your plight.

One think that is obvious, just as it is here. The houses and buildings made as CBS seem to have come thru very well.
I don't understand why so many of the houses in Gulfport and Biloxi were made of wood - the pictures look like a giant lumber yard. Hopefully, some building codes equal to Florida will be enforced when they do rebuild.

As I said there isn't a simple solution but, I am a strong believer in personal responsibility and limited government intrusion. So when you start asking me the taxpayer for more of my hard earned dollars, it's only fair that you might be somewhat at my mercy for how MY money is best utilized.

If you told me tomorrow that you can get New Orleans completely rebuilt with private dollars and all of it's citizens could move back - I don't have a problem with it.

BrugGirl, you make many excellent points, very eloquently. Always beware the Developers!

Here's the latest press release on the NO-Katrina subject by the National Trust for Historic Preservation:

http://www.nationaltrust.org/news/docs/20050915_katrina.html

Folks, if you don't know about the free online, no-need-to-subscribe magazine of the Trust, do visit it:

http://www.nationaltrust.org/magazine

Choose "Archives" and search years of past magazines, for instance, for "garden".

Also on the New Orleans subject ...I entered into Google search engine "921 Chartres" which is the address in the French Quarter where I lived for 2 months in spring of 1968. Results! A photographic collection of various urban landscape items from the mid 1900s. "921 Chartres" is in the collection, looking like the laborer's apartment house that it probably was in 1941. (Gentrified by 1968.) My apartment was the upper story corner one with the full iron balcony. Was I thrilled - then and now! Photos of other interesting things around the country...I bet it will bring back memories for anyone who traveled a little in the USA at that time. Check out the "Laundry" (drying on lines) collection!

Thanks, BrugGirl for bringing up the subject. Do not go gently into a bland future that has surrendered the past!

Granted this will be a generalization, but on the part of having no children, many low income people cannot afford the $30 a month (or more, I pay $40!) for birth control. Then, you can get into can they even afford a visit to an obgyn? Sure there are clinics and cheaper places to go, but when it comes to food vs. birth control I'm betting the majority choose food. I know there are lots of "holes" in my defense, but there are many background to many of these people stories. Education is the biggest thing that needs to be done to the poorer parts of our country. Not just basic schooling, but other areas on basic how to live from day to day sort of stuff.

um........ someone who has to CHOOSE between food and birth control has the audacity or maybe the total selfishness to bring a child into this world that they can NOT take care of??????? ....and people wonder why poverty spans generations within families? BTW, the best birth control method is actually free and guaranteed effective but if that won't work, there's certainly the county health clinic.

Children are not a "right", they are a lifelong commitment and responsibility.

Minibim, my second son is a "can't afford my pills this month" baby, and I am neither illiterate or selfish. At that time, I lived about 40 miles from the Planned Parenthood center, and the county health center was another 5 miles past that, and I had no transportation. By the time I got an appointment and got someone to take me there, it was too late, and I WAS using OTC birth control, which obviously didn't work. I was also married, so don't go there either. Sometimes you just have to take the hand that God deals you and do the best you can.

But back to the subject. In a lot of older, historic places, most of the houses are built of wood. Only in the last 10 years or so, since Andrew, has Florida demanded that structures be built either with steel framework or concrete block. My house is only 24 years old, and it's wood frame. Like I said in my original message, most of those shotgun houses were close to or over 100 years old.

Undoubtedly, now Louisiana and Mississippi will enact stricter building codes, but if things are to be kept historically correct, there will still be wooden buildings.

I never suggested that the government should take care of this. The owners of those houses surely were required to have insurance, but if it's like it was here in Florida, it won't cover the cost of rebuilding. I know of a couple of families here that are rebuilding their own homes, because insurance paid so little. You pay your premiums, and think you are covered, then they find every reason not to pay you your total amount when worse comes to worse. Down here, roofs were blown off, and the insurance would pay to replace the roof, but not for the stuff that was destroyed inside because it was considered "flood damage". If those people in NO had no flood insurance, they're screwed.

I have an album of pictures I took down there, just of houses. Like I said, I love historical houses. I hope the "wedding cake" house wasn't badly damaged. But it's a national landmark, and the owners are rich, so it will be taken care of.

I also have an album of houses on Key West, which we are very lucky haven't been wiped off the face of the earth yet! Katrina would have totally destroyed the keys if it had hit there.

Water damage isn't the same as flood damage. If items are damaged because of losing a roof, that's water damage - but you have to have the contents insured to be covered.

Saying you want to rebuild "historically correct", still brings you back to the original problem. Should the poorest people live in homes that are vulnerable to disaster? If the poor residents are returned to new homes, the homes are going to have to be CBS.

If not, unfortunately you look to the Trumps of the world to rebuild and maintain the style that is New Orleans, knowing they are the ones capable of rebuilding if another disaster strikes.

Hindsight is foresight 200 years later, but once again Mother Nature proves that no matter how much smarter we think we are - she wins. If nothing else at all comes from; this hopefully some parts of Louisiana will NOT be rebuilt and create the marshes that once helped protect the area.

"One of the failures of the government in LA has been allowing so many people to remain so poor there"

People make there own choices! It is not up tp the government to make them get a job! These people have been on welfare for MANY generations, and they pass their knowledge of the system on to their children. I do not agree with welfare or public housing. They are nothing but free hand outs. I am so sick of giving so much of my hard earned tax dollars to the ghetto. They have nicer schools, better classes where they offer free music, tech, computer class you name it. Their civic centers are beautiful and include a swimming pool, a gym, a stage and more. All because it is the ghetto and they feel this will help them stay out of trouble. So bascially we reward these people.

I have met some of the youth from that part of town and many of these girls WANT to get pregnant because they get a check or because everyone else is doing it. Birth control is available free and usually the clinic is within walking distance. (bruggirl I understand it was farther for you)

I am sure by now you think I was raised as some snot nose kid, but I was not. My Mom came from the Ghetto and she decided she did not want that lfe for herself and she worked hard to make sure of that. My parents have never owned a house, but hopefully that will change soon. My husband is a police officer so we don't make alot of money but we have made some good choices in our lives. When we got married we were both barely making more than minimum wage. My Husband just graduated college in June.

Anyway my point is we all have choices. Most, not all, of those people choose to live where the did. Maybe they didn't like it but they did not choose to do anything about it.

And as far as Historic buildings are concerned I love historic building and I love seeing them fixed up. However, we can't fix every old building and there has to be aline where there is just too much to fix.

They have nicer schools, better classes where they offer free music, tech, computer class you name it. Their civic centers are beautiful and include a swimming pool, a gym, a stage and more. All because it is the ghetto and they feel this will help them stay out of trouble. So bascially we reward these people.

I guess I should quantify what I mean by the "poor" of New Orleans. I meant the working poor, not the welfare leeches. There ARE homeowners and working people in those neighborhoods. They try very hard to lift themselves up, but unfortunately, in the deep south, some people are still kept down. It's a sad but true fact that I admit, even though I am a southerner. Some of them can rise above, but not all have that kind of heart, and when you've been kept "in your place" for hundreds of years, your spirit is broken, unless you're a very strong individual with a lot of support. Not everyone is an Oprah Winfrey. Most people from that kind of background lose all their self esteem, and no one even tries to help them. You can give them housing, food, whatever, but unless you give them pride and self-worth, nothing else will matter.

Yes, and by rewarding them, we keep them poor. I say take them off of welfare and let them suffer unless they take care of themselves. In SC, one of the poorest states in the nation, they started making it really hard for people to take advantage of welfare housing to push drugs. They kicked everyone out that had a drug, prostitution, or violent crime conviction. Who did that leave? Hardly anyone. Unfortunately, those people moved into our lower rent districts and set up shop there. The neighborhood where I lived when I was in college is now taken over by drugs and prostitution.

I know you cannot make people change if they don't want to. Lord knows, we've had enough "welfare reform" initiatives to know that, but you can make it impossible for them to actually make a living on welfare, then maybe they will HAVE to get off their butts and work. Welfare is a system that encompasses many private agencies, like Goodwill and Salvation Army. People learn to use these systems. They aren't stupid. When I was in college, I lived in Section 8 housing and still worked part time. The woman across the street from me had 3 kids, a nursing degree, and was making more money from under the table child support she didn't report than I made at my job. Put on top of that they were actually PAYING her $80 a month toward her electric bill to live there, plus she got food stamps, medicaid, and free stuff from WIC. Then there were all those free clothes and Christmas stuff she got from the social service agencies, and we figured she made over $24,000 a year (in 1982). She was perfectly able to work, but as long as they kept paying her not to, why should she?

Once after my husband, I asked for temporary child care so I could look for a job, and they tried to get me on welfare. I said I didn't want to go on welfare, I just wanted a little help until I could get a job. They didn't understand why I didn't want to go on the dole, tried for half an hour to talk me into NOT working. I finally won, and within a month, I was off any kind of assistance. I'm the kind of person the system is set up to help, yet when we try to get help, they try to suck us into their web. It's ridiculous!

I remember once on some talk show there was a woman who had like six kids, most with different fathers, and she was fighting to save her welfare. She had started and was running a whole organization to fight so she wouldn't have to work. Her argument was that her kids needed her at home when they were small. Someone in the audience brought up the argument that is she could run a whole organization like that, she had management skills, and she could get out there and put them to with a real job. On a follow-up show, they said her benefits had been suspended because of just what she did to save them...they deemed her "capable but unwilling to work". THAT'S what we need more of. Less bleeding heart, and more tough love.

I say we should MAKE them take these jobs that the illegal immigrants do. That would be killing two birds with one stone.

Bruggirl, I agree with you 100%!!!

I had a friend who got divorced and had 2 young kids and asked for assistance and because she was working 2 jobs TRYING to make ends meet they said she was making too much money anyway to make a long story short after much persistance the did give her some financial aid BUT she had to pay it all back!!!!
Our system is screwed up!!!!

Well, I learned something new today. Thought I had a decent vocab, but I sure didn't know the meaning of "gentrification". Looked it up, and now I do. The points made above are very thought-provoking.

Bruggirl - you are right-on!

I think it might be a healthy exercise for us to repeat this phrase: "There, but for the grace of God, go I."

Fascinating how patronising some people can be when discussing issues relating to poverty.These are OUR fellow American CITIZENS being discussed, after all.Is somebody seriously recommending that people who make below a certain amount of income be barred from having sex &/or choosing where they may live?Or are they endorsing mandatory sterilisation for low-income workers?

How convenient it is to possess a heart of stone = (

This article is from Naomi Klein:

Let the People Rebuild

& this article is from last week's LA Times....

Here is a link that might be useful: LATimes, 9/15/05

Is somebody seriously recommending that people who make below a certain amount of income be barred from having sex &/or choosing where they may live?Or are they endorsing mandatory sterilisation for low-income workers?

I'm not recommending anything but PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

You do NOT have children if you can NOT afford them. How at all is that fair to an innocent child? You saw the result first hand, people too poor to be able to evacuate, sitting on a bridge with children dying in their arms. That is one of the most horrible things I have ever watched on tv and if you can truthfully say that it's ok to treat a child that way...........you have to be responsible for yourself, before you can be responsible for a child.

If you do CHOOSE to have a child when you can NOT afford a child, why is it up to me and my hard earned money to help support YOUR child? Why should I be portrayed as some un-caring person because I don't want to support your child? When it comes to MY money, it is not up to others to decide how it is best spent.

I find it so odd, that some people have somehow decided they know better than everyone else, how to spend everyone else's money. When you get done fixing social security, please leave me out of it, unless you can equal the 14% return my 401K is averaging.

Who is passing judgement? All I am asking is what gives others the right to choose how MY money is spent?

Just out of curiosity, do you purchase a new car knowing you can't afford the payments? Actually do you purchase any high ticket item without being able to afford the payments? Aside from being a human being what makes a child any different when you are figuring your monthly expenditures?

On the S.S. note, do you realize how much more money EVERYONE would have for their OWN retirement, if they were actually ENTITLED to control their OWN money? Obviously most don't, cause I already know I am in the minority on that view.

So in addition to having a "heart of stone" because I don't want to support some welfare family, now I am a "rich snob" because I have the audacity to save money. What a concept, here I thought this was America not Russia.

I was 17 when I had my first son. I was also smart enough to figure out that this baby required a lot of stuff that cost MONEY. I also figured out that there are ways to make sure we didn't have another one and when we did, it was another boy. We love them both, but I really wanted a girl, but you know what??? We realized that we couldn't give our 2 boys what we wanted to give them if we had another child, so we didn't. So why should I be supporting someone who hasn't the brains to figure out how to use birth control or where to get it (and btw, you can take the bus to the health dept. clinic if you have to)? I'm sick of seeing there single moms with 5 kids from 5 guys and they're on welfare. Not just the ones from N.O., I'm talking everywhere. Personal responsibility should be taught right along with safe sex.

As far as being poor, it can happen to anyone. All you need is an illness, accident or other catastrophe. I'm all for programs that help people who get thrown a curveball in life, but not ones that perpetuate making babies to live off of the gov't.

Minimib, I'm with you. I don't have a cellphone, cable tv, call-waiting, caller ID, digital camera, T-VO or any of those other expensive services and gadgets because I chose to SAVE over 25% of my gross income to ensure my retirement. I have the choice: I could have all that stuff now, or I can be sure I have taken care of myself in the future. I chose to not spend a lot of money on "stuff" that impresses no one. I go to the library, not the bookstore. I have $5.95/mo dial-up internet, not $40/mo high-speed access. I have never owned a new car and I know better than to stomp on the gas pedal at each light that turns green (and then jam on the brakes at the next light). I watch others and I think, hey, it's your gas. I mow my own lawn. Paint and repair my own house. Rotate my own tires! Yes, last time I did that, two other men in the neighborhood came over to see if I needed help with my "flat tire". They almost died when I told them I was just rotating them myself to save $15. I run rather than work out at a gym, because you can run anywhere and it doesn't cost you anything except for a decent pair of shoes. I do my own nails and hair. It's all about priorities. Some people say, hey, you might not live to 65. Fact is, most do. I know that even at my measly income, I will not need the government to take care of me. It's a great feeling of security, comfort and control. I read about personal finance and investing. I educate myself and invest in no-load, low expense index mutual funds that have served me well. The whole lifestyle is just not all that hard. You just have to decide what is a necessity and what is a luxury. And we all draw that line in the sand at different places.

......lotta Bible verses about helping the poor & suffering - not too many I recall about looking out for number 1 & the heck w/ everybody else....?

**The best index to a person's character is (a) how he treats people who can't do him any good, and (b) how he treats people who can't fight back.**
Abigail Van Buren

Amen to that, Carol! I have had to live off of the government for short times in my life, but I've paid for others to do so when I was working, so I don't feel like I'm so bad.

I HAD a retirement account, but then the stock market crashed, and then I got injured and had cancer and couldn't work for two years, so there that went. I wouldn't wish that on anyone, but for people to feel superior because they have a 401(k) is just laughable. Look at all those people at Worldcom who thought they had it made. My sister worked for them. She is frugal to a fault, and she believed in them so much that she put most of her retirement savings into their stock. She lost it all, and it was a considerable amount. She's not stupid. She scrimped and saved for 30 years, and it was all gone, overnight.

To give the impression that people who have savings accounts are somehow smarter than those who don't is snobbery, plain and simple. But that's o.k., because I truly believe that what you put out there comes back to you, and that if you have what the bible calls "ill gotten gains", which can just be money stashed away for your own benefit instead of giving to others who are in need, it will be taken away from you. You cannot hold on to ill gotten gains. Go read your Bible.

My father once told me I would never have money, because I would give it all away. He was right. I'm sort of proud of that. Even in my current financial plight, I am thinking of going to help those who are worse off than I am, NOT about what the interest rate is on my IRA or 401(k).

I'm telling you, it comes back on you 7 fold, so be careful! I've seen it time and time again.

And BTW, my isp is only 5.50 a month!

I think you all are misjudging Minibim. Just because she doesn't want to hand out every dime to someone doesn't mean she is a bad person who doesn't care or has not helped anyone. I feel the same as Minibim.
Bruggirl, you had a retirement plan but the stock market crashed and you got cancer and were unable to work but you appearently had some money saved that helped you or the government helped you.
Being prepared is not being a selfish snob.

I believe the Lord helps those who help themselves, but I know that we are not always able to help ourselves and we need to count on the kindness of others.
I am a firm believer of what goes around comes around. I love to help others, and sometimes it is a sacrifice to help others and sometimes it is not. I know the Lord will bless me either way.
I have recently opened my home to someone who is less fortunate than me and yes it is a sacrifice but that is ok. I am not telling you this for a pat on the back, but just that you know that just because I don't want to always give my last dime away does not mean I am a bad person. We all have hardships we just don't always post them here.Not that there is anything wrong with that, sometimes we need an encouraging word.

The life blood of our capitalist system that is ultimately responsible for putting food on all of our tables is the capital[money] the capitalists invests for one reason and one reason only-to make a profit.The blunt truth of the matter is those who contribute to their retirement are in fact the ones making our system work so well that Katrina will be just a minor set-back.
A healthy economy is what enables us to give a helping hand to those less fortunate,both here and abroad.Don't bite the hand thats feeding you is the best advice of all.Those with the resources can go elsewhere,we're stuck here for better or worse.

Carolb-do you want to tell me where I said this?
not too many I recall about looking out for number 1 & the heck w/ everybody else....?

If you choose to, you can read my words for exact face value. It should be ME, who decides where and to whom I give money to, NOT the government. You and Bruggirl apparently feel the need to twist other people's words, so do whatever makes you happy. I wholeheartedly agree that emergencies can happen to anyone, that is a far cry from people who make, living off of the government, their lifestyle.

We can save for another discussion why it is stupid and violates rule #1 for investing, to have all of your savings in one basket.

If people were allowed to take their social security and invest it in a 401k type investment, they would be far better off when their retirement came. Currently what rate of return does social security offer???? Social Security is the only wonderful "investment" that your family loses the remainder of your principle when you croak, .......and I should trust people's judgement who think this is a great idea? If it's considered "bragging" because I want something better than what social security offers, than so be it.

For what it is worth, because frankly it is no one's business........ I have continously done volunteer work, since BEFORE I could drive. I have had a stock market account since I was in high school and to clarify further - I started my account with $500 of money that I earned.

So be careful before you accuse others of passing judgement.

Minibim, remember, I said I was surprised because I KNOW you are a good person. I never said you weren't. I'm happy that you have something saved, and pray that you don't lose yours to illness and injury like I did, or to a greedy capitalist system where CEO's rip off the people who made them what they are. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. I have had many bad experiences with people who put money above people, so I guess my attitudes are colored by that. To be honest, one of those people was my sister who lost all her money. In a way, she deserved it, because she had been very greedy about money, and didn't care who she hurt to get it. She refused to send her own child to college because she wouldn't let go of a cent of her savings. She also screwed me over on a land deal, and never felt sorry. Recently her husband died, and now she's having to scrimp and save, back to where she started, and it does seem to have humbled her, so it wasn't altogether a bad thing.

I think humility in all things is good. Bragging about what you have has never made anyone richer or better liked, I can tell you that!

Still, I like minibim, and although we may disagree, I will continue to like her.

Minibim and Love The Yard, Verizon just lowered their price on dsl to $14.95. I, too, scrimp and save anywhere I can, but, since I'm stuck at home, my luxury is my dsl. The service is good and now the lower price makes it even better.

Bruggirl, this is exactly what I'm talking about. When you have an illness or when a company goes belly up and loses their employees retirement funds, that's when the gov't should help. Not when people are just too lazy to help themselves. It sounds like you and I have a lot in common. Thank God we haven't had to deal with cancer, even though our parents and other family members have, but we've had to deal with strokes and other injuries. It wipes you out. Now I have no health ins. and they told me my husband makes too much to qualify for any gov't ins. So, if he quits his job and we lose the house - I'll get Medicaid. Gotta love it!

Bottom line, you have to help yourself first before you can help anyone else. Give what you can to help people in need, because someday that person in need might be you.

Julie

Julie,
My father always told me that as long as I was working at any kind of job, no matter how little it paid, he would help me, but if I wasn't trying, he wouldn't. He had to help me a lot when I was raising my kids alone, but he never begrudged me a dime as long as I was trying. Once when I was in school, and working part time, he actually paid my rent for a year. I offered to pay him back, and he said "It was an investment in my grandkids' future, and it doesn't need repaying." I loved him so much for that.

I take the same line with my kids, and it's been very good for one of them. The other just doesn't seem to get the part about working at any job, no matter how menial. So I let him suffer. Maybe if he suffers enough, he'll straighten up. I would never let him starve or be ill and not taken care of, especially if he was down and out through no fault of his own, but as far as being hungry once in awhile, or tossed out of his apartment because he won't work, that's his problem.

I know that some of the parents today think I'm mean, because to my way of thinking, most kids today are spoiled rotten, but my kids will know what it's like to do without, and hopefully, they won't be comfortable with that, and will strive to do better.

I've been on the bottom, and on the top, and the middle is considerably more comfortable to me.

But I would love to have that IRA back. ;)

Bruggirl, I remember from past posts about your heartaches with you son. It sounds like you're on the right track with him and hopefully he'll come around and someday thank you for it. I've seen people spoil their kids and they become like leeches and the parents either don't realize it or can't stop themselves from being enablers.

My f-i-l really helps us out when we need it and I hope I can be there for my kids like he was for us. Everybody needs a little help sometimes. I like being in the middle, too, but I wouldn't have minded winning that $250 million lottery last week! I would like to have my health insurance back. I felt a lot more secure when I had it.

I gave my parents plenty of headaches, so I'm sure I'm just getting some of that back. ;)