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Stray cat hunting and killing birds

Posted by skinnyhoops 9B (My Page) on
Sun, Feb 28, 10 at 16:04

There's a stray cat hanging around my backyard everyday becoming a nuisance. Yesterday I was outside and heard some commotion around the corner, turns out the cat had just killed a bird! It's not even eating it, just killed it for the heck of it. I know it's in their nature to hunt and kill, but I can't enjoy bird watching when this cat is scaring away the birds. Or even worse killing them. I have about 3 bird feeders in my backyard.

What are some humane techniques to scare the nuisance cat out of my yard? I live in a city lot and my backyard is completely fenced, but the cat just jumps over the fence obviously. I was thinking of getting a high power water gun but those toys don't really hit a distant target thats runs away as soon as it sees me. Are there any products that contain predator urine so the cat will think a predator is lurking? Again, i'm looking for humane techniques. Not really interested in county Animal Control either, I heard rumors they putdown unwanted nuisance cats. I don't mind if the cat lives around the neighborhood, but I just want it to stop hunting the visiting birds!


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

check out the latest and greatest in water hose attachments.Some are even called water GUNS.
I know you can get them on QVC or HSN but I also saw one at CVS. Get the easiest and most high powered,then you can also clean your car, stucco etc with it!
Good luck
Tanya (not a cat hater but I love my ducks!)


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

  • Posted by brute Florida 10 (My Page) on
    Sun, Feb 28, 10 at 16:34

If you borrow or buy a cage trap and bait it with cat food or a can of sardines, you can catch and dispose of him any way you see fit.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

Thanks I'll look into those. Although I might have trouble accessing the hose before I can get a squirt at the cat LOL. Usually the cat sees me and immediately runs away.

I'm a cat lover, as I have 4 cats but they are all indoors. I was just reading a past Yahoo Questions post where someone asked about the high powered water toys to get rid of stray cats, but alot of responses bashed the poster saying it could hurt the cat? They're not made of paper LOL


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

  • Posted by saldut 9-10 st pete, fl (My Page) on
    Sun, Feb 28, 10 at 17:05

I had a stray cat did the same and I coaxed him into a cage and took him to the Vet who neutered him and gave him his shots, I then brought the cat into a spare room in the house and made friends with him, he is now the most loveable lap-kitty one could ask for, he rewards me every day for rescuing him from the alley, his name is now Ali, short for alley-cat, he is part Siamese... I'm just glad there are not a lot of these strays coming in the yard because I am a sucker for cats... sally


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

  • Posted by dghays Z10A FL Brevard (My Page) on
    Sun, Feb 28, 10 at 19:28

I use a weak, cheap BB gun which isn't strong enough to do anything but sting them. They hang out at my bird feeders too, at least used to. I haven't hit one yet, but it does get them running. The gun is a $27 one from Walmart. I have shot some squirrels, and it doesn't seem to damage them, but they do take off running. Before anyone says anything, I'd rather have live birds and a stung cat.

Gary


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

Skinnyhoops:

I volunteer for this animal rescue organization: http://www.friendsofstrays.org/

If you can capture the kitty, you can take it to the shelter. It's in St. Pete. It's a no-kill shelter and it will be vetted and spayed/neutered, socialized and put up for adoption.

Many times, if a stray is killing birds (or other wildlife) and not eating, it can be due to not learning 'how' to eat from the mother cat, and not because they are not hungry. That's why you can see some very thin and hungry strays. They learn the survival behavior from the mother cat. Instinct allows them to hunt, but they have to learn how to eat the prey.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

My dad when I was a kid would buy cat collars with bells on it so the birds would have a chance. It's probably a young cat and will soon stop.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

Feral cats are the biggest predators of songbirds in this country, hands down. Period. A BB gun ( like a red ryder) is particularly good to use. It won't even break the skin of the cat...but the cat gets the message that it is "dangerous" to hunt here.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

Actually, that is an outdated and inaccurate statement based on old, outdated research.

Leading scientists, and even the Audubon, have determined that urban sprawl, fragmentation of forested ecosystems, the increase in motor vehicles and the related increase in roads, and the use of pesticides, fertilizers and poisons do much more damage to bird and small vertebrate species than do domestic and/or feral cats.

However, cat predation, and its 'supposed' effect on vulnerable species, is frequently used as an argument in situations such as this one.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

  • Posted by saldut 9-10 st pete, fl (My Page) on
    Mon, Mar 1, 10 at 12:01

Don't forget to point out the huge numbers of birds that are killed by flying into wires, Cell towers, and obstacles in their flight-paths, I read where hundreds of birds flying in flocks smash into these high obstacles and are killed, evidence is right on the ground underneath the obstacles... sally


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

Well, misconception/propaganda or not, i'm dealing with cat issues as far as my garden, birds and waste as well and want the nuisance stopped.

Live in a small condo and my yard has a wooden fence that the cats scale and walk along. No water hose connection and not many other options. Neighbor leaves his cat outside all day along with food and water and doesn't shoo away strays that make his yard their home. I'm perfectly fine with a non-lethal BB gun. I'd probably get a tent and campout for a chance to take out my frustration on the buggers.

So far the only other things i could think of was planting climbing roses to create a thorny net over the fence or making some sort of critter spray since the store bought ones were worthless.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

  • Posted by saldut 9-10 st pete, fl (My Page) on
    Mon, Mar 1, 10 at 15:06

SAVE OUR STRAYS is a great organization here in St Pete, and does wonderful work with unfortunate little creatures... I belong to ALLEY CAT ALLIES and they TNR, Trap Neuther and Return, the movement has expanded all across the country... sally


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

  • Posted by dghays Z10A FL Brevard (My Page) on
    Mon, Mar 1, 10 at 16:58

I subscribe to Audubon, and even read recently a re-iteration of the fact that non-native cats kill hundreds of millions of birds a year. I would kill a cat before I allow one to kill my bird friends, and if one insists on doing so and keeps returning, I will.

Gary


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

Good for you, Sally...I too do TNR

I try to stay from these *cat hating* threads.

Olya - feeding FIVE outdoor TNRed cats and refilling 4 bird feeders on regular basis....


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

Well I will agree that cats are not the only problems.Hawks and owls can be merciless killers and there is nothing so sad as happily listening to a mockingbird only to have a hawk snatch it from the treetop midsong, or a bobcat sneak up and grab my pet ducks and head off into the woods. That is nature(shudder!)
I also was watching a daddy cardinal feed its fledgling when one of Flight Safetys LOUD little airplanes scared the bejeebers out of him.He dropped the food and took off leaving the little guy with his mouth open. So I do agree man is a problem too.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

Are you sure the cat wasn't going to eat the bird and perhaps you just interupted it and scared the cat away..?


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

I find my neighbor's kids to be loud and annoying. All that noise scares the birds away from my feeders and makes my yard a less desirable bird environment. Plus, all that noise interrupts my morning coffee and makes it unpleasant for me when I sit outside on my patio.

I guess I should just shoot them with a non-lethal BB gun, since their parents refuse to keep them inside their house.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

LOL good post saintpfla. I agree those BB guns shouldn't be used on animals, regardless of what they're doing. If I was responsible for injuring this cat that killed the bird, I'd feel like crap. Thats why I was asking about products that could deter the cat from entering my backyard like predator urine? I know they make stuff for squirrels (I think it's fox urine).

sharbear, I'm sure the intentions were just to hunt and kill, kind of like a game. I didn't interrupt anything because I saw him running off with the bird in it's mouth over the fence. I peeked through the fence to see where it went. I later checked the same area where the cat fled, and I saw the dead bird laying there. From what I could see, it didn't look like it was a meal. Actually the same cat was in my backyard about 15 minutes later staring at a pair of Doves on the ground.

I might just have to deal with it though, because a few days ago I saw a friken hawk sitting by my pool. LOL I can't win! As long as my cardinals, bluejays and titmice don't get hurt I'm fine. =)


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

I'm with Gary. Either trap it and take it to the pound or kill it. Feral cats are a scourge on native wildlife and they are a direct result of the irresponsibility of people. I feel bad for the cats but ultimately, birds in my yard come first.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

saintpfla- Your passion is apparent. However your point is weak. To each his own and agree to disagree.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

You are baiting the birds to come into your yard and in doing that you incourage the cat to come into your yard to hunt. Remove the bird feeder and the cat won't be coming into your yard. Simple!


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

@ljlloyd: no, actually my argument is not 'weak' at all. Nor, is it merely a difference of opinion, ie: debating the merits of vacationing in Paris or Venice.

It's about choosing to be cruel or choosing not to be cruel and knowing the difference.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

I don't have trouble with feral cats, just my neighbors cats. I think everyone on my street who owns a cat lets them run loose. I am one of those "animal lovers" tho and couldn't bring myself to hurt one. I just chase them away. I have three "BIG" dogs who don't like cats and I always worry when I let them outside that a cat may be in my backyard. They would probably kill it if they caught it in their territory. I don't know why people don't keep their cats in. Not only do they try to catch my squirrels and birds, but they spray in my front yard. I'm sure if I let my dogs run loose there would be mutiple complaints.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

stuartwanda, wow really? ha-ha-ha I'm not baiting the birds to be cat food. Besides, the birds it's killing are mostly ground eaters, the ones that eat insects and stuff. Those types of birds don't even bother with seed feeders. The cat makes its rounds through my yard all the time, even before I had the bird feeders setup.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

Where I live, we used to have a lot of feral cats.
After years of putting up with bouts of ringworm, scabies, more than one case of people having to have surgery to remove their lymph nodes because of cat scratch fever, etc,
We finally raised enough H, that Fish and Wildlife rounded all the cats up and got them out of here.
Odd and scary, almost all of the cats they caught tested positive for tuberculosis.
We have a lot more birds, etc now too.

http://www.messybeast.com/zoonoses.htm


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

I know in my county, free-roaming cats are against the law. Although animal control may not have the time to come trap it, you can trap it yourself and take it to the humane society. If someone owns it, they will have to pay a hefty fine to get it back (I think it is $60 for the first offense here). This might encourage them to keep their cat inside.

As for how many birds are killed by cats, the answer is "hundred of millions each year". For more information, check out the link below. I've written about this subject many times and, in my own yard, I use a bb gun.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cat's Indoors


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

  • Posted by saldut 9-10 st pete, fl (My Page) on
    Tue, Mar 2, 10 at 15:30

It would be interesting to find out how they can count " hundreds of millions "of birds killed by just cats..... and the article does mention other causes for bird-deaths, and does not mention the numbers killed by high-wires, cell towers, etc. People should be aware of Animal Cruelty laws in a lot of locations, and shooting a cat with a BB gun could be considered animal cruelty .......... seems we each have our little annoyances, I know the thing that annoys me is people walking their dog on my lawn and turning their head when the dog defecates and leaves a pile on my grass..... also people eating and then throwing their wrappers in the street where it blows around... we all could be a bit more tolerant is my way of thinking.... sally


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I am not a big cat fan but I couldn't shoot one with a BB gun. That could definately hurt a cat. What really bothers me is a neighbor down the street that thinks it is ok to dump his kitty litter box across the street from his house. Yuck!


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

Reasons I dislike these type of threads...I dislike people who pick and choose the *nature* they like. Cute birds, check. Native possums - not so much...Just as an example.

I love all life. I despise people developing and building beyond control, wiping out forests,using pesticides and herbicides without thinking about consequences (just read an article today about the pesticide widely used in the US is linked to "castrating" male frogs...lovely) and wiping out all life that is deemed *unsuitable* for their properties
I despise people who hate cats. We all are entitled to our opinions, don't we :)

I prefer this place to be *personality* free. I like gardening and I want to talk plants, without the ugliness. I do not want to see poster A and think what I think of them - they hate cats, yuck, I would not want to be friends with them! ...but I guess, ignorance is bliss and I just do not want to know it. ..hehehe

As to BB guns (not that cat haters will care) We care for colonies in USF vicinity (no birds there, mostly cement, apartment complexes, dumpsters and feral cats left behind by students who moved on to better and bigger) We trap, neuter, return and feed. The campus allows for TNRed cats. These cats do not bother anyone...

This cat was living peacefully, neutered and vaccinated. One day the caregiver noticed an eye injury. The cat was recaptured and taken to the vet - turns out, it had BB pellets in the eye. The eye since then has been removed.

Yimmy

y2

To each their own...I am not out to change any minds, and thanks for not insisting to change mine.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

  • Posted by dghays Z10A FL Brevard (My Page) on
    Tue, Mar 2, 10 at 20:40

olyagrove, I respect your opinion differing with mine, especially with the respect you showed. I was a bit miffed by the misinformation about the bird count dead being totally debunked. Of course they can't be exact. They take various observed cats and their kills, and multiply it by the number of estimated outdoor cats. I know almost all outdoors cats I've been exposed to, including the ones my family owned as a child, killed birds. I imagine the millions of dead birds which were native before cats were ever introduced, probably had feelings about being killed DEAD. They hurt almost nothing but seeds and bugs. A cat gets fed by people most of the time, then has lots of leisure time to kill for fun, and almost all cats do. Audubon also says the story about feral cats getting into groups which do not hunt birds is a total falsehood. I have never actually shot a cat, but shot at one with my weak BB gun, but it's always too weak to have any accuracy at 60'. I wish they'd get the message and not come back, but they hang at my feeders. I won't accept that. I will never shoot to kill, but if I have to, I will shoot. I love indoor cats, hate outdoor/unsupervised cats.

Good will to all, including the cats that I hope stay out of my yard!

Gary


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

"These cats do not bother anyone... "

Well obviously it did!

olya, you have a warm and fuzzy thing going on with cats. Not everyone does.
Some people look at them as nasty, rear end licking, disease carriers.
By taking these cats back, feeding and maintaining a feral colony of cats where their is a high population of people, you are forcing people to live with them.

Bottom line is this. Don't complain about a wild animal that is out in the wild that gets hurt. What if it had been run over by a car?

If you don't want it to get hurt, take it home and keep it in the house.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

olya, you have a warm and fuzzy thing going on with cats. Not everyone does.
Some people look at them as nasty, rear end licking, disease carriers.
By taking these cats back, feeding and maintaining a feral colony of cats where their is a high population of people, you are forcing people to live with them.

Look, dear poster - I really have no interest in prolonging this rather tedious discussion. Sure, we have different opinions, on topics well beyond animals. There are plenty of things (I am guessing), you and I, just as an example, disagree on.

If you don't want it to get hurt, take it home and keep it in the house.
I like the spirit. One cannot save every wild animals (possum, skunk, you name it) Wild is wild indeed, as you suggested. So let it be where it is. The only difference I made, I came out and fixed the handful of cats already there, to prevent the future litters...you cannot possibly blame me for every animal, however nasty and icky, that ever done you wrong. For all you know it, I voiced my opinion just like plenty others did - I did not release cats into the wild and I did not feed them to procreate - and you might very well be *barking up the wrong tree*.

With all due respect, I would like to bow out of this (rather pointless) discussion (especially when certain posters choose to become combative and personal) You do not like icky cats, I seem to like them - and it is where it is to remain, so why go on? You cannot possibly hate everyone who likes something you do not.
Adios and good night, shall we?

Gary, thank you for your opinion and concern (and politeness). If one can fix stupid and irresponsible, the problem on unwanted and abandoned animals will go away. Big IF there.

Good luck to all -- and have fun planting and digging in the yard.
Olya

p.s. Dear Original Poster, aren't you glad you asked? :)


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

As i said, dont judge others. Just agree to disagree.

oh yeah, and its still "weak." lol


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

olya, I didn't say all of those things you accused me of saying and did not give my personal opinion on cats at all.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

  • Posted by saldut 9-10 st pete, fl (My Page) on
    Wed, Mar 3, 10 at 8:34

Seems there is one thing here not being acknowledged ... shooting a cat with a BB gun is against the Law... even a 'very weak BB gun'... it is illegal, it is animal cruelty, and most municipalities have a law against it, with penalties, some cities it is a Felony with jail-time...... are we going to shoot dogs because they kill cats ? are we going to shoot bigger dogs because they kill smaller dogs? are we going to shoot hawks because they kill smaller birds ? I have several hawks in my area and have personally seen them take birds... why don't we just shoot them ? Of course, we could take this to a much higher level of discussion, because some folks have their mind-set and are not open to reason or reality.... sally


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

  • Posted by dghays Z10A FL Brevard (My Page) on
    Wed, Mar 3, 10 at 9:25

Hawks are here natively, and people don't set out food to keep them fed. A well fed population breeds more. If dogs were running around killing cats, animal control will do something about that, but there are too many cats for them to deal with. I would wonder how cat lovers would feel about watching dogs tear apart a feral cat? I watched a pack of dogs do just that to our cat on our front porch when I was a child. It is actually legal to shoot feral cats in many areas, but it would vary at each jurisdiction. While I hate to see hawks get birds, they are fair game in the native wild, so they get their prize. They make swipes at birds in my backyard now and then.

olyagrove is right that we'll never agree, but I felt the other point of view should be made visible too. It's done.

Gary


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

  • Posted by saldut 9-10 st pete, fl (My Page) on
    Wed, Mar 3, 10 at 10:10

Hi Gary I'm not sure what your point of view is, but I would like to know what municipality allows one to shoot feral cats ? Most towns do not allow the shooting of any firearm period, in the town limits, and there are legal penalties for doing so, outside of defending your own person or in defense of your home ( castle theory) it is simply against the Law. This is separate from allowing hunting which is also regulated, but not allowed in a municipality..... please enlighten me, thanks, sally


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RE: Stray cat hunting birds

  • Posted by saldut 9-10 st pete, fl (My Page) on
    Wed, Mar 3, 10 at 10:22

This discussion begs the obvious query... WHY would anyone lure birds in with a feeder, if they were aware of a cat problem ? Audubon advises against feeding wild birds, because they lose their fear of humans, and because wild birds are better off fending for themselves... Birds only become "bait" when they are lured in to feeders, it seems to me to be smarter not to do this and if one wants to see birds, get some binoculars and go out "birding".. Audubon has many 'bird tours', and can help get a person started, with a great group of folks who enjoy birds .... sally


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

  • Posted by brute Florida 10 (My Page) on
    Wed, Mar 3, 10 at 10:41

Hey, I guess I'll chime in. As most of you know, I'm rather bloodthirsty when it comes to garden-raiding varmints.
However, whenever a stray cat shows up in my coon cage trap, I immediately release it unharmed.
Sure, I've got a bird feeder too. I've also got rats and mice out there who are fond of my fruit trees and chewing holes in my fiberglass boat and the electrical wiring contained within.
The way I see it, anything that hunts rats, mice, and baby rabbits is a friend of mine. Those cats mostly prowl my property at night, so I'm hoping they are dealing with the rodents while they're here.
My friendship also extends to bobcats, cooper's hawks, owls, and snakes. All are welcome here!



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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

  • Posted by saldut 9-10 st pete, fl (My Page) on
    Wed, Mar 3, 10 at 13:52

Well, I'm a cat lover which is plain to see-- but I also love birds and realize I am only dooming them by luring them with a bird-feeder, but I do have a bird-bath affair, because fresh water is in short supply, but it is well up in the air and cats cannot get to it... and I enjoy watching the birds when they come, they splash and carry-on and are safe..... my cats are both inside and outside, I have 5 inside and 4 more outside I sponsor, all neutered and needled, and feed them high-quality canned and sometimes kibble food, no corn or grains or by-products or 'funny stuff'... and it's funny to watch when coons and possums come around, the cats will stare nose-to-nose and then back-off... and yes, the cats hunt and bring the occasional mouse or fruit-rat to my door.....also a snake was offered the other day, I don't know what kind...... if anybody tried to shoot my cats I would have the Police on them in a heartbeat, that is animal cruelty no matter how one tries to dress it up, it can never be justified.... sally


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

  • Posted by dghays Z10A FL Brevard (My Page) on
    Wed, Mar 3, 10 at 14:25

In my city you can shoot firearms and of course, BB guns, I called the sheriff so I know. I know birds are ending up with less and less habitat to find food. I believe the entire state of Wisconsin or Wyoming made shooting feral cats legal. olyagrove already said the truth, we're not convincing each other of anything. I go birding and I see more in my yard than anywhere else. If your cat refuses to stop prowling my feeders it will probably eventually have a problem. Good luck getting the police to do a spectrum analysis of my pellets to find out if it matches the one in a cat. Hundreds of millions of birds a year, but somehow the cats have greater value. Not in my yard.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

Just wanted to apologize for starting such a controversial topic. My intentions were to look for humane methods to deter the cats, such as predator scents. There's a company that makes this spray called DEER OFF for Deer, Rabbits, and Squirrels. It containes fox urine I believe.

On a funny note, now RACCOONs are after the bird feeders at night LOL. They actually pulled and broke the plexiglass that holds all the seed inside, so now it's all over the place. Thats a pretty strong raccoon! I went to Atlas Glass today and purchased this material thats like plexiglass but its unbreakable. They told me NASCAR uses this material on their windows. If the raccoon breaks this material, I'm going to go nutts


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

OK, guys! We are not going to agree on people taking care of their animals! It ain't going to happen!
Skinnyhoops, I hope you find a answer to your problem. Good luck! This isn't going against you, you just have to understand, one will kill and one is compastionate?
OK, how is your garden growing? LOL


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

  • Posted by dghays Z10A FL Brevard (My Page) on
    Thu, Mar 4, 10 at 9:13

I would argue about who is compassionate. Obviously it's just a choice, ignoring bird deaths for favor of cats. If a pack of dogs killed your outdoor cat, you'd call animal control, and probably all the dogs would be euthanized, and you wouldn't care. Keep your cat indoors where all can live happily. LOL


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

I won't argue, but I do have a question.

I'm sure almost everyone has heard about invasive species, boa constrictors, cuban tree frogs, iguanas, etc.

How is this any different than boa constrictors?


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

How is this any different than boa constrictors?

To keep this discussion ugly free

The cat (Felis silvestris catus) has been domesticated by people for at least 9,500 years. When it was convenient, cats have been kept around as mouse and rat control.
I find it ridiculous to insist that the feline is invasive, given the long history of domestication. By the same criteria, we - humans, as a species - are just as invasive. In fact we are. Thanks to evolution, we developed brains (because we could not run fast enough) and have come to dominate all other species...

Gary, I love birds and I have rehabbed birds. What I find appalling is the spirit of "if you mess with my - I will kill ya". Be it a tomato, or form of entertaining (birds)

I believe cats should be kept inside. For their safety. But we are dealing with feral cats, born to abandoned animals. Animals abandoned by a***holes and your fellow citizens. I do not find it very compassionate to kill off every creature that had the misfortune to be born on the streets.
I wish we did not have feral cats having to live and fend for themselves.

I believe in prevention - regardless of whether it people or cats. If we can prevent stupid and misfortune, wonderful. If we failed to prevent, then we need to deal humanely with the problem.

I will agree cats are problem to wild birds when I see us all tackling the leading causes of dwindling of the populations - overpopulation of people, destruction of habitats, excessive use of pesticides....

My opinion. Thanks. No need to dice and slice it and point out every *perceived* flaw. Opinions are that they are....opinions. I am not telling everyone to stop believing in gods, am I?!


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

All that said.

How is a feral colony of cats any different than a feral colony of boa constrictors?

Both are released non-native pets, both eat mice and rats, both should be kept inside for their own safety, both born to abandoned animals, both are invasive, and both displace native animals.

How is it any different?


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Skipper the Penguin: You! Higher mammal. Can you read?

How is it any different?

to re-iterate,

The cat (Felis silvestris catus) has been domesticated by people for at least 9,500 years. When it was convenient, cats have been kept around as mouse and rat control.
I find it ridiculous to insist that the feline is invasive, given the long history of domestication. By the same criteria, we - humans, as a species - are just as invasive. In fact we are. Thanks to evolution, we developed brains (because we could not run fast enough) and have come to dominate all other species...

Are humans invasive? Or do we have to eat mice to qualify?
How long does a species have to live in the habitat to be considered NOT invasive?

And how does this prolonging of the thread helps the OP and her original quest for humane ways of deterring a cat? (If you want a whole new discussion on icky-butt-licking-cats, then maybe you should start one on the Conversations page?)


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No answer

all that said

I haven't seen too many feral colonies of humans released back into the wild. LOL

How is a feral colony of cats any different than a feral colony of boa constrictors?


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

  • Posted by dghays Z10A FL Brevard (My Page) on
    Thu, Mar 4, 10 at 12:17

9500 years doesn't mean anything. All kinds of other animals are killed in a widespread fashion to prevent land destruction, such as ground hogs, wild pigs, wild horses, etc. Cat lovers care about furry cats, and are ok with hundreds of millions of birds being killed. There are many bird species in Hawaii which are near extinction due to cats. This thread will continue as long as you keep justifying your point of view at the expense of the other. I find myself more embittered towards feral cats from your minimization of the damage they cause. I would rather see a dead feral cat than a dead native bird, you would rather see the opposite, even if it's 100 dead native birds to one cat.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

  • Posted by saldut 9-10 st pete, fl (My Page) on
    Thu, Mar 4, 10 at 12:20

Well, a feral colony of cats is NOT the same a a feral colony of boa-constrictors, that is ridiculous to try and compare.. the cats were domesticated pets and abandoned, while the Boa is imported very recently and a menace to not only native wild-life but humans as well, didn't it kill a baby recently ? Boas need to be eradicated fast, whilst the cats need to be managed with compassion, the same as an abandoned dog.... I myself feel for any little creature especially when it is hungry and desperate, and anyone who lures birds in with feeders that are not safe for the birds is asking for trouble... if they don't want the birds taken by a hungry cat then stop setting up unsafe feeders... after all, we as humans are supposed to be CIVILIZED, and use our God-given intelligence and not be so stupid.... we need to remember that., instead of being so pig-headed that we insist on shooting everything that annoys us.............. sally


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

Corrie22. There is no difference. Except cats have a much larger advocacy base.

Since I was a early supporter in the thread of the BB gun method, let me just say, I think we were all supposed to take it with an amount of jest. It probably is the most effective method but I doubt most people would put the time or effort into hunting the "icky-butt-licking-cats."

Don't make message board discussions about your principals and character. This is not the forum for that. And you'll only start a flamewar that'll make you seem unreasonable.

Back OT, there are other ways to make your garden less hospitable to cats. Placing the feeder over water might help, I'd imagine. I had to chase a cat out of my mulched raised bed because my neighbor makes it sleep outside even in these frosts and the strays he feeds chase his own cat out of their yard. No way I can keep him away besides sticking sharp implements in the unplanted squares.

Oh no! I said sharp!


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

Boa constrictors have also been kept as pets for thousands of years, and can also be bred in captivity.

Feral/wild animals are not domesticated.
Wild horses are not domesticated.


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RE: Stray cat hunting birds

  • Posted by saldut 9-10 st pete, fl (My Page) on
    Thu, Mar 4, 10 at 12:55

There was a comment on another Forum to the effect that the German writer and philosopher Goethe said " Even the Gods are helpless against ignorance "..... I think that has been demonstrated fully in this thread... I'm going back out in my garden and plant some roses... sally


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

I would rather see a dead feral cat than a dead native bird, you would rather see the opposite, even if it's 100 dead native birds to one cat.

Assumption, dear poster. I would rather see no dead birds, and no abandoned animals. And I would much-much rather see this place void of rabid ugly posters - to me, this is a happy *Florida Gardening* place

Happy Gardening. I seriously need to stop looking at this thread :] Have fun duking it out, you all are right.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

Speaking of assumptions.

I have not given my personal opinion about cats at all.
I have not called anyone stupid, ignorant, rabid, or any other names,
and I certainly haven't told anyone to take it somewhere else.

I asked a question.
How is one invasive species any different than any other invasive species?

""Posted by corrie22 (My Page) on Wed, Mar 3, 10 at 8:21

olya, I didn't say all of those things you accused me of saying and did not give my personal opinion on cats at all.""

I live inside a preserve.
Fish and Wildlife considers feral cats an invasive species.
Feral cats are not allowed here where I live.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

Talk about 'misinformation'. There is certainly a lot of it here.

Again, you can tell yourself that shooting a BB gun is "harmless". It is not. It is cruel and punishable in most counties. If you are fine with that, that's your flaw and your conscience.

Also, physics easily disputes your claim of "no harm" by deliberating shooting a BB gun at an 8-10lb animal. Physics is not an emotional opinion - it's math and science.

But, if you need more convincing, Florida law says anyone is guilty of animal cruelty who "unnecessarily overloads, overdrives, torments ... or unnecessarily mutilates, or kills any animal."

I'm pretty sure...shooting a BB gun at a cat would fit the legal definition of cruelty:

Florida's animal cruelty statute (Florida State Statute 828.12) lays out what constitutes misdemeanor and felony animal cruelty:

Misdemeanor: A person who unnecessarily overloads, overdrives, torments, deprives of necessary sustenance or shelter, or unnecessarily mutilates, or kills any animal, or causes the same to be done, or carries in or upon any vehicle, or otherwise, any animal in a cruel or inhumane manner, is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or by a fine of not more than $5,000, or both.

Felony: A person who intentionally commits an act to any animal which results in the cruel death, or excessive or repeated infliction of unnecessary pain or suffering, or causes the same to be done, is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or by a fine of not more than $10,000, or both.

Source: Florida State Statutes 2009

Oh, just for fun...here's more info:

http://www.floridaanimallaw.com/

Again, if you need more info, I'm happy to provide you with a physics equation outlining terminal velocity of projectiles which explains the soft tissue damage and/or permanent injury and/or death that a small animal target can obtain.

Now, regarding the "psuedo-research on song birds killed by cats", it's a flawed and outdated study by Churcher/Lawton. Most modern environmental scientists have debunked their claims of holding cats 100% responsible for impacting songbird population declines.

Loads of interesting reading and links to articles on this topic here:

http://www.stanford.edu/group/CATNET/articles/understd_pred.html

http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/cat_predation.html

Regarding, the Boa-Python, monitor lizards et al, those reptiles are an invasive, exotic species. Cats are considered companion animals as they are considered domesticated. Pythons are not domesticated -- even those that live happily with people.

The Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission requires licensing, permits and HUMANE methods of killing the pythons. Also, since the hunting is in the Everglades National Park - the key word being "national" which means, native species are protected by FEDERAL LAWS, ie: non-native, exotic, invasive species can be eradicated, ie: pythons. This can be done legally. And, with Federal and State funding.

You're obviously just flame-baiting the conversation by trying to steer the discussion into that direction. But, in case I am mistaken, I thought I'd try to explain the obvious to you.

More info is here: http://www.nps.gov/ever/index.htm

I'm certainly not anyone's moral compass - nor do I wish to be - but, cruelty is cruelty. You do actually know this - you're just choosing to rationalize your actions.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

Did I mention that I didn't accuse anyone of "flame-baiting" either?

According to the Global Invasive Species Database,
out of the top 100 world's worst alien invasive species,
they list feral cats as number 38.

http://www.issg.org/database/species/search.asp?st=100ss&fr=1&str=&lang=EN


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

  • Posted by saldut 9-10 st pete, fl (My Page) on
    Thu, Mar 4, 10 at 16:43

Well, I went out in the garden and planted some roses... Ebb Tide, Wild Blue Yonder, and Midnight Blue.. these are dark bluey-purple... I put them in front of and beside Just Joey and Julia Child, both yellow and yellow-orange. These are in front of several mauvey-pinky roses, Tiffany, Brandy, Perfume Delight, , and these are in front of 3 pale pinky-cream Bermuda Kathleen, Mystic Beauty, and Spice. On the other side are Maggie ( red), Tropicana, sort of dark mauve-red, and 2 St Patrick, yellow.and Scentimental a red & white..... in the other side are Abraham Darby a cream-pink blend, and Crepuscule, a yellowish climber. I have a lot more roses, with several Belinda's Dream, pink, and Don Juans, red climbers, Chrysler Imperials, red.. Double Delight red and cream, Ducher, cream-white, Gold Medal (2)bright yellow,... Louis Philippe red, and a row of China Dolls, pink polyanthas that never stop blooming in the front as a border...... it's nice out but still cool so good to get some work done in the garden before the heat sets in..... Happy Gardening .... sally


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

Well, I went in the living room and picked a fight with my two cats.........

I lost! ROTFLMBO


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

  • Posted by brute Florida 10 (My Page) on
    Thu, Mar 4, 10 at 19:56

I've always found it interesting that "animal rights" inflames such passion, while the fact that millions of unborn human babies have been murdered since The Supremes declared that women can utilize abortion as a means of birth control doesn't even raise an eyebrow.
Billy Graham once said "If God doesn't punish America, then He owes Sodom and Gomorrah an apology".


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

It mostly comes down to two differing viewpoints. The protection of the individual animal over the health of the ecosystem as a whole; or, the health of the natural ecosystem to the detriment of a few unfortunate animals (cats). I prefer the latter. Those who believe in the rights of the individual cat at the expense of every other animal it kills or maims have to understand that they are very much making a decision to impact potentially hundreds of different species for the sake of an invasive species. And make no mistake, THEY ARE AN INVASIVE SPECIES. It doesn't matter that they have been domesticated for hundreds of years. If there were hundreds of thousands of wild, feral dogs, roaming the countryside in packs killing anything they were capable of taking down, would you be so quick to allow them to "roam free"? I highly doubt it. Well, to the songbirds of the country, feral cats ARE every bit as dangerous as that hypothetical I just suggested.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

  • Posted by brute Florida 10 (My Page) on
    Thu, Mar 4, 10 at 21:00

Or, if a chicken could talk, he'd say, "He might be Colonel Sanders to you, but he's Adolph Eichmann to me!"


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

Billy Graham also once said to then President Nixon: "the Jewish stranglehold on the media has got to be broken
or this country's going down the drain". I wouldn't hold him to be a paragon of good judgment. Lets stick to the
subject of Cats and the differing but interesting points being made here and not let this degenerate into a
religious debate about abortion. I'm sure there are other forums you can go to for that.


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Billy Graham?

  • Posted by brute Florida 10 (My Page) on
    Thu, Mar 4, 10 at 21:36

Okay, tell me then, is the "Jewish stranglehold on the media" statement true, or untrue?
I would invite anyone interested in the truth of this matter to google Dr. William Pierce, and read everything he wrote on this subject.
Henry Ford also tried to warn us about this.
Where there's smoke, there's fire.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

  • Posted by dghays Z10A FL Brevard (My Page) on
    Fri, Mar 5, 10 at 9:26

First, here are the feral cat lovers insultiveness:
after all, we as humans are supposed to be CIVILIZED, and use our God-given intelligence and not be so stupid

" Even the Gods are helpless against ignorance ".....

I'm certainly not anyone's moral compass - nor do I wish to be - but, cruelty is cruelty. You do actually know this - you're just choosing to rationalize your actions.

You're obviously just flame-baiting the conversation by trying to steer the discussion into that direction.

Second:
Consequently, persons who release cats into the wild or who maintain feral cat colonies could be found liable for a take under section 9 of the ESA if maintenance of feral cats in the wild is found to kill or injure wildlife by degrading habitat.
Persons who trap cats for the purpose of TNR have possession, charge, or custody of those animals, and therefore are the owners under Florida law. When those persons subsequently release the cats back into the wild, they are abandoning them.

Here is what feral cats do for us:
Rabies*
Feline Leukemia Virus
Feline Panleukopenia (feline distemper)
Feline Infectious Peritonitis
Feline Immunodeficiency Virus
Feline Viral Upper Respiratory Disease
Cat-scratch Disease*
Toxoplasmosis*
Lyme Disease*
Roundworms*
Hookworms*
Plague*
*Transmissible to humans

Legality of shooting the disease ridden vermin:
The shooting could fall into a legal gray area in which police can't make an arrest unless an officer witnessed it, Holmes said.
"If an allegation of a firearm being discharged doesn't occur in the presence of a police officer, the officer cannot make an arrest, under state law," Holmes said.

I could also trap them and take them to be euthanized if that'll make you happy, but from now on I won't give them the chances I did before to learn to avoid my property.

THEY KILL BIRDS WHETHER THEY ARE AT A FEEDER OR NOT, so don't be so STUPID (your word you used for me).

More info for you to ignore:
CONCLUSION
Florida is a state with many native endangered and threatened species. Some, like the
Lower Keys marsh rabbit, Key Largo woodrat and some subspecies of beach mice, are teetering
on the edge of extinction. Florida also has an enormous population of non-native, free-roaming
cats. Ironically, the cats, rather than the native wildlife, seem to have the more vocal support.
Proponents of TNR and feral cat colonies have exerted tremendous pressure on local officials to enact ordinances permitting the establishment and maintenance of cat colonies, and in some cases, even to spend taxpayer dollars subsidizing the programs. Unfortunately, many well-intended friends of felines are determined to ignore the evidence that proves such programs do not work, are inhumane to the cats, dangerous to the public, and lethal to Floridas native wildlife.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

Gary
Please do not take the lack of responses from some of us as ignoring. This has gone beyond a reasonable discussion and exchange of opinions

Any thread that turns from a discussion into hatred spewing - where people are typing with obvious blood pressure rising, when people threaten to start shooting *dang* cats from now on (because the poster you disagree with cannot be hurt directly, the *logical step* seems to be a threat to hurt the subject of the discussion)..any threat that jumps from OP asking for humane ways of deterring cats , to personal attacks (sure, from both sides) ...and then somehow winds up on religion and abortion (which I most certainly support)

...any thread like that should (my opinion - hate me for it all you want) cease to exists. It is nothing but pure hate.

I practice compassion for all living things, and, having worked and (continuing to) with both animal rescues and wildlife rehabbers, can bet you I saved more animals, on all sides the equation, that most can here imagine.

The bulk of my work (volunteering work) is fostering and taking animals off the streets, when adoptable. To date, I have fostered close to 200 cats that found homes through Tampabay rescues. 200 less animals on the streets, and I am proud of that (it costs Animal Services, on average, 90 dollars, to house, euth, and dispose of an animal otherwise -that is on average of 200 x 90 dollars of tax money saved...and I do not know of ANY TNR programs in Florida that get a dime from a tax payer)
I am sorry, I do not need anyone to preach to me what I should be doing instead.

I ,for one, am happy my lovely garden is not bordering any of yours - and unfortunately, I really would not like - in the future - to participate in any further discussions (garden or otherwise) with some. It is rather unfortunate.


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for off topic discussions

Brute, you might want to try "Hot Topics"

Plenty people willing to debate the topics you brought up.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/hottopics/


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...on the other hand

As a rather ridiculous thought - we can continue posting on this thread, until it comes to its natural end and will cease to exist at the 150 count.

I do not think we can damage the relationships and images any more beyond of what has been done...so what the heck. Duke it out.

------------------

Sally, I meant to ask, but wanted to avoid this thread at first ...but since I am at it, pray tell about your roses. I have *always* wanted to try Ebb Tide, but I have stayed away for the possibility of black spot. Is this your first year growing it? Where did you get it?
What a stunning rose - unbelievable color. I wonder if it will bleach in the hot Florida sun.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

  • Posted by dghays Z10A FL Brevard (My Page) on
    Fri, Mar 5, 10 at 10:34

olya, you've said about five times you aren't going to be in this thread any more, yet you keep doing so. I'm also glad I don't live next to you, someone who says they care about wildlife, yet condones invasive pests which harbor diseases and kill our beautiful native birds. I have 4 pairs of painted buntings frequenting my yard, and won't allow feral cat to kill them. I'll try to trap the cats and get them euthanized at the shelter like you wish. Have a great day.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

Olya, you sure are bossy.
Considering the name calling and personal attacks started with you and your side, maybe you should take your own advice.

The rest of us are just having a conversation.


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xxx

olya, you've said about five times you aren't going to be in this thread any more, yet you keep doing so
More like 3. Hard to stay away. Same reason you keep coming back.

Olya, you sure are bossy.
Considering the name calling and personal attacks started with you and your side, maybe you should take your own advice.

I suggested to cease fire. You might want to call it "bossy"
Pray tell where I started the attacks. I posted my opinion, I confirmed the fact that BB guns can hurt an animal (I did not complain, as you suggested), and you chose to jump all over my response.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

geez, just found this thread and am not about to read it all. But, fyi, I have three cats with bb's just below the skin. They showed up on xrays. They could have easily gone into bad places and really caused problems.
Lori


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

I'll try to trap the cats and get them euthanized at the shelter like you wish. Have a great day.

Well sure, you have a wonderful day yourself. I myself wont get to your level and wont advertise that since cats are being harmed by you, I will from now on start shooting birds. Neeh, not my kind of thing.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

olya, dear poster, you started off with "cat hating" and went down hill from there.

I don't hate cats.


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do I know you?

I said
I despise people who hate cats.
And I do. Do you feel that you belong to this category to get insulted? Did I even talk to you about you in my original message?
I do not know you..The most I know about you is that you, I guess, like gardening in Florida

You do not hate cats, well good!

Messages that drew fire were posted before mine. You seem to fixate on my opinions. Strange, but hey, it is a public forum.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

  • Posted by dghays Z10A FL Brevard (My Page) on
    Fri, Mar 5, 10 at 11:16

I'll do it your way and won't try to dissuade them from entering my yard, I'll immediately trap them for county euthanasia. You say you're not on my level, but condone the deaths of hundreds of millions of native and protected birds every year. If you want to explore the bottom of the barrel, check the mirror.


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RE: cat hunting and killing birds

No, your first post was:
Posted by olyagrove z9 Tampa, FL (My Page) on Mon, Mar 1, 10 at 18:13
"I try to stay from these *cat hating* threads."

As long as you keep replying to me, I'll keep replying to you. LOL


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xxx

You say you're not on my level, but condone the deaths of hundreds of millions of native and protected birds every year.
look, stop assigning things to me I do not do! I merely want a HUMANE solution to the problem we are facing...stupid people abandoning animals and not fixing them. I cannot bring myself to trapping and killing, but I can do a small part by fixing and preventing further litters.
For what you know, I did not contribute a single cat to this problem.

"I try to stay from these *cat hating* threads.
and I do. I stayed away from posting until it was unbearably difficult...cant help it you know! And again, did you feel that this was a message directed at you? I did not wish to single you out, believe me. No interest in poking at any particular poster.

As long as you keep replying to me, I'll keep replying to you. LOL

gotcha...


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RE: Another Stray cat hunting and killing birds

"And again, did you feel that this was a message directed at you?"

Nope, dear poster, not at all.

It was your message directed at anyone that disagreed with you. You are the one that lumped anyone that disagreed with you into "cat haters".


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barrels and the bottoms

Gary, as heated as this conversation is, I think (opinion!) it is best to avoid nasty -straight at the person - comments.

If you want to explore the bottom of the barrel, check the mirror.

I spend the vast majority of my time either working hard towards my PhD, or bettering my yard. I came to this country with 50 bucks in my pocket, without a single relative, worked 40-60 hours a week to pay for college.
I graduated with 4.0 and seeking a career in Biomedical engineering, to bring better understanding and possible answers to better us all.

I volunteer when I can, and mostly foster little kittens - which means, taking them off the streets finding them homes.
I do not condone the deaths of any animals. I find it unfortunate that we have to kill cats, but at the same time, this is happening all over the country.
I do my part, a little part, to help those I can.

You know, you might think you have a good opinion of me, or know me in any way.
But I honestly do not think I qualify to be termed bottom of the barrel I know it is hard to stay above calling names - but it is possible.


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could that be the answer

As long as you keep replying to me, I'll keep replying to you. LOL

So if I ignore you, will you go away?! :)


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Another stray cat

"So if I ignore you, will you go away?! :) "

LOL of course not.
When you stop asking me questions or directing replies at me, I will stop answering your posts though.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

Gosh, are you guys having fun with this?

Just in case anyone is interested, my standard Boca Boys Dry Rub works just as well on feral as domestic cats. And my Jamaican Jerk Rub can take any bird your feeder will lure and make it a tasty appetizer.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

Gosh, are you guys having fun with this?

Just in case anyone is interested, my standard Boca Boys Dry Rub works just as well on feral as domestic cats. And my Jamaican Jerk Rub can take any bird your feeder will lure and make it a tasty appetizer.

Thank you, we (I think, opinion) a bit of humor to diffuse the situation! hehe :)


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

  • Posted by saldut 9-10 st pete, fl (My Page) on
    Fri, Mar 5, 10 at 13:35

Hello folks - My, what a discussion is going on... let me tell you abt. my roses instead ? Ebb Tide is beautiful, a purply dark red color, I just got it from Nelson's and planted it 4 days ago, so don't know yet how it will do, but it is supposed to be disease-resistant and very fragrant.... I got 3 of them, Ebb Tide, Wild Blue Yonder, and Midnight Blue... I have lots of pinks and reds and have been trying to offset with some purples and yellows, in my newer area. I have most of my front yard dug up now and converted to roses, on the west side. The east side is full of tree roots and too much shade from a huge magnolia, so I have potted stuff there that does better in shady area... I don't even have a camera or I would take some pics, right now there are not a lot of blossoms because I have been pruning and trimming. sally


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

Midnight Blue is the other rose I have been wanting. I love purples and Florida is too harsh on most deep purple roses

I grow mostly antiques and disease resistant shrubs. If you like purples, Burgundy Iceberg and Night Owl have done rather well for me (both going on two years)

Wild Blue Yonder is grandiflora and I have not had very good luck with grandifloras

I just recently ordered two roses from Chamblees. Francis Dubreuil is one of them, and I am looking forward to this rather unusual china. I almost ordered Maggie, and now kind of regret I did not....

Not trying to divert the topic - I do find rose talk interesting.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

LoL, now you're off-topic Sally. Take it to the Rose forum. =) Just playing. And I think we've all established we're just replying to reply. I don't even believe anyone is posting angry messages any more. As was said, we're just having a conversation.

Personally, I had a similar thought about the social ills going on in the country and the passion displayed here about one species but clearly it's not fair to draw comparisons to animal rights and human rights or to make assumptions about others stances on one based on the other.

I had to go around the garden and pull cat hair off of my seedlings today. There are either too many or one poorly-groomed or sick cat that is shedding nearby. You actually see the fur float by in the air like ash or snow occasionally. It truly is disgusting. Not "cats." But floating cat hair floating over the fence and landing on my future food.

*WARNING* Please don't attack that statement about other animals touching my food because I do KILL insects and rodents with NO regret. I have yet to intentionally harm a cat. *WARNING*

Also, this entire thread did not advocate the use of the BB guns. I believe one poster may have and I jokingly co-signed. Just so that topic isn't revisted as the evil of this thread.

Good info about maintaining feral cats. I believe what my neighbor does may constitute caring for them if he leaves food out knowing several stray cats come into his yard for that purpose. They wait outside his door in the morning and meow, awaiting a meal.

I still plan to use rose bushes in LARGE wall planters to discourage them climbing on my fence. I don't think climbing roses would be all that advantageous because I wouldn't want my thorny plant to be "invasive" on his side of our shared fence. How's that for irony.


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bougs make good fences

I still plan to use rose bushes in LARGE wall planters to discourage them climbing on my fence. I don't think climbing roses would be all that advantageous because I wouldn't want my thorny plant to be "invasive" on his side of our shared fence. How's that for irony.

What about a bougainvillea or two?

The feeders that leave food out without fixing cats are a menace and do more harm than good. When colonies get huge, and resources are rather limited, and most of the energy is wasted on mating, animals tend to look sick
Unfortunately, trapping and killing off the cats does not discourage the feeder to continue, and pretty soon new cats show up to fill in the void (vacuum effect!)

I get to fight with these *caring* feeders on a regular basis. Not only do they harm the animals by doing the bare minimum, they also give a bad name for any rescue person trying to help - as most unknowing folk who seem to be unhappy about the feeder letting the animals breed without little concern - they seem to lump these feeders with people who (like me) try to reduce the population by socializing, fostering, adopting out, and, as a last resort, fixing and releasing back.

I do not have a problem with Off topic. I suggested Hot Topics, as that is the place where the particular topics suggested (abortion, religion) would get a tremendous following.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

  • Posted by saldut 9-10 st pete, fl (My Page) on
    Fri, Mar 5, 10 at 15:00

I go on the different Rose Forums and have learned a lot, and correspond with rose folks there.. some folks are also here, because after all, we are gardening here in Fla., and so many of the roses are not suited for our climate, or soil............I used to have kids climbing my fence, when you have a fence folks are curious abt. what's on the other side... well, I planted some bougainvilla and boy do they work ! The bougainvilla climb and straddle the fence and nobody ever wants to get tangled in THAT ! Try it, it works. plus, the flowers are gorgeous. when you have to prune, be sure to wear leather gloves and long sleeves... the same as with roses. Olyagrove, the Grandiflora do great here, also Floribunda and Polyantha, and Hybrid Teas. Some of the Old Garden Roses do not, unless they are grafted on Fortuniana, there is a serious nematode problem with our soil... so any rose here requires it be grafted on Fort.... of course, there are some who will disagree, but it is my experience, and I have some that are 30 years old... I am told that Chinas and Bermuda roses do OK here, so I have gotten some own-root, and we'll see how long they last. It's hard to find any OGR or Antiques grafted, I don't know why the Nurseries don't do it.... The David Austin roses are another type are gorgeous, they are a cross between Antiques and new cultivars, but again, not many are grafted for Fla. growing. Wish they were, I love them. If you want to look at them, just type the name in Google.. put "David Austin roses"... or "China roses" or "antique roses' and play with it. I do and love the pics. I have ordered 3 D. Austins from Chamblee's Roses, Molineaux, Tamara, and Tradescant, and will see how they turn out...... wish me luck, and happy gardening........ sally


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

Since we had the retaining wall built, two trucks of compost later, roses grow rather well. Own root on antiques seem to be working out quite well for me!

I have two DA roses, Pat Austin and...cant remember the name of the second (second image) Both have done great for a few years

I do not spray, so black spot resistance is rather important. Grandifloras seem to go *naked* in summer

From Roses Winter 2008/2009

From Backyard Fall 2008


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

  • Posted by saldut 9-10 st pete, fl (My Page) on
    Fri, Mar 5, 10 at 16:29

WOW ! Olyagrove you are FANTASTIC ! Love it love it love it ! What is that pretty bug on them.. Yes, Grands do get sparse at the bottom, what I do, is put them at the back of the beds, and put HTs infront, and then Floribundas in front of that,or Bush, and finally the Polyantha's or Micro-mini's in the very front, and they each hide the ills of the others.. I tend to get them too close together and then have a hard time getting in, I wish I had more space so I could leave more room... mine are rather messy I guess. I'm not very neat.... and I don't like to spray but do as a last resort... put some more pics up so I can drool... My newer bed is still a work in progress and I am trying to get some short Micr-mini's or Polyanthas that are grafted on Fort., I have China Dolls along the front of my older bed but they don't graft them anymore, I like CDs they just bloom their heads off...... give us some more pics ...... thanx, happy gardening, sally


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

lol, no lie. Just got home from work and haven't been inside more than ten minutes when I see the neighbors cat hop the fence and start digging up my mulch for a place to squat. lol.

Now what am I supposed to do about that guys?

Its clear this guy fancies his pet and "outside cat." He won't keep him inside during the day or night. Neutered or not its still a nuisance. I already tried a round critter spray. Next step is for me to have it trapped and taken away. I've spoken to him about it once before and nothing has changed. Gonna take a picture of the cat in the trap and send it to him anonymously. [/twistedhumor]


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

Thank you Sally!
The bug is a little dragonfly, they were all over the front yard in the summer. I do not spray anything, so I have all kinds of bugs :] My yard is rather chaotic, but I do like the Cottage Garden look...

From Backyard Summer 2009

Right now, lots of new growths on the roses - they sure do like the cold weather

I love China Dolls. I had that I moved carelessly, to a better spot and lost it. My second rose from Chamblees on order is Climbing Pinkie, to put instead of China Doll (they did not have China Dolls) Pretty rose, what a shame to have lost it.

You might be surprised to see this rose...again, cant remember the name and too lazy to out and look. It is a rugosa hybrid! Granted, it is not growing like crazy, but it is managing - and the flowers are so fragrant. I grew up in Russia and the smell of rugosas is very dear to me

From Backyard Summer 2009

If you like purple - and I love purple roses..here is a Burgundy Iceberg. It is, surprisingly, just as vigorous as Iceberg itself. No particular fragrance, but a nice rose to look at ( I planted it next to Pat Austin - you can actually spot a unopened bud...I like the purples and oranges combination)

From Roses Winter 2008/2009

I am amazed how well Pat Austin grows in Florida. Yellows are often plagued by black spot, but not lovely Pat!


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Olyagrove, you have the most beautiful garden, wish I lived closer to see it! How are you orchids doing with the cold?
Thanks for the photos, sure makes the heart want more warmth! I am so tired of this cold weather! My poor old bones hurt.


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Yay Olya!You go girl!!! I always lurk here,but don't post very often,but I must applaud Olya for her response here and most of all her work with animals.I have five cats of my own,indoor only,all rescues.I wish we had many more compassionate people like Olya.Keep up the great work Olya,and let's just ignore these hate spewing posts and get back to gardening.Love your photo albums,your garden is so lovely,and I love all the cats!Cindy


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olya, your roses and yard are absolutely beautiful. I love the cottage garden.

Posted by ljlloyd (My Page) on Fri, Mar 5, 10 at 18:05
Now what am I supposed to do about that guys?

ljlloyd, here's an article on how to safely trap cats. It looks like exactly the same article that Fish and Wildlife mailed out here.

http://www.ehow.com/how_2067802_trap-feral-cat.html

.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

  • Posted by saldut 9-10 st pete, fl (My Page) on
    Sat, Mar 6, 10 at 10:29

Olya , I LOVE your garden ! Is your Pat Austin own-root, or on Fort. ? I'd have a whole yard full of Austins if they were on Fort. I hate to get a gorgeous rose and plant it and care for it, and have to watch it slowly die because of the nematodes.... and I keep a lot of mulch, and compost etc. on the soil, I have lost a lot of roses to nematodes anyway. also tomatoes, and pole-beans, and peppers... the soil here is very sandy however, and they thrive in sandy dirt... I don't know why none of the nurseries don't carry China Doll, it is one little Polyantha that blooms constantly... Nelson has Weeping China Doll but it is taller and not nearly as beautiful... give us some more pics of your paradise, thanks, sally


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

SaintPFla your post was very well said. Talk about 'misinformation'. There is certainly a lot of it here. Wow! It took me a while to read all of this. Sad to see so much bitterness here.
Olya, your roses are beautiful!
Skinnyhoops, someone said in a post here to put your feeder above water...that sounds like a plausible idea to me. Good luck


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

  • Posted by saldut 9-10 st pete, fl (My Page) on
    Sat, Mar 6, 10 at 16:27

There are many ways to feed the birds without endangering them, from cats..... my hubby fixed me a large platform that did just that.... he took a large piece thick plywood and put a rim around the edge with 1 x 2, then he put a piece of wood in the center and the bird feeder on top of that, he then set it up on a 4 x 4 set into the ground deep enough to hold it... on the outside of the platform bottom he fixed a cutting of chicken wire, this hung down a bit and if a cat jumped to try and reach the platform it would hit the wire and fall... didn't hurt the cat and he soon became discouraged and left. Any seeds the birds knocked out of the feeder landed on the platform and didn't fall to the ground. We soon had dozens of pigeons that came and gobbled all the seeds, so he took another piece of wire mesh and hooked it up over the whole contraption, the birds could get thru' but the pigeons were too large.... he went to Home Depot and picked out all this wire and boards etc. and it came to only abt. $10. not including the feeder, the feeder was maybe another $10.-$20. This set-up lasted abt. 15 years, before the wood rotted and fell apart, we did have to change out the feeder several times because they were made of poorer quality wood... at one time he put a larger piece of plywood over the whole top to shelter it from the rain, and this worked great for years..... he used pressure-treated wood also a fir or weather-resistant wood, it was great and the birds were safe and well-fed. He also put another 4 X 4 in the ground and a platform on that for a water basin, we set a large plant-saucer on it and the birds would come and drink and bathe, and I could reach up and tip out dirty water and fill it again with the hose. There really is no point in setting up a feeder that is a trap for the birds, or a lure for the cats and making bait of the birds. It can be done safely...... if one really wants to.... I think some people just hate cats, I have seen it with my kitties, a neighbor across the alley comes out and yells at them if they wander thru' her yard, she gets all red in the face and looks like she's ready to have a heart-attack... what is the point ? Life is too short to sweat the small stuff. sally


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By any chance, you guys aren't neighbors are you?

Posted by saldut 9-10 st pete, fl (My Page) on Sat, Mar 6, 10 at 16:27
Quote: ""I think some people just hate cats, I have seen it with my kitties, a neighbor across the alley comes out and yells at them if they wander thru' her yard, she gets all red in the face and looks like she's ready to have a heart-attack...""

Posted by ljlloyd (My Page) on Fri, Mar 5, 10 at 18:05
Quote: ""lol, no lie. Just got home from work and haven't been inside more than ten minutes when I see the neighbors cat hop the fence and start digging up my mulch for a place to squat. lol.
Now what am I supposed to do about that guys?
Its clear this guy fancies his pet and "outside cat." He won't keep him inside during the day or night. Neutered or not its still a nuisance. I already tried a round critter spray. Next step is for me to have it trapped and taken away. I've spoken to him about it once before and nothing has changed. Gonna take a picture of the cat in the trap and send it to him anonymously""


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  • Posted by saldut 9-10 st pete, fl (My Page) on
    Sat, Mar 6, 10 at 19:33

Someone's not paying attention... I have 5 inside kitties, and 4 more outside I sponsor, they are all neutered and needled... I am not a 'hoarder' I only have inside what I can care for inside and the ones outside came needing help, all forlorn and needy, so this ole' girl helped as best she could.... if one of them goes into the neighbor's mulch, the mulch is prob. better off for it, and it's all covered up, cats are very fastidious.... there are neighbor doggies come and drop their load in my front yard, but it sits there where I might inadvertantly step in it, darn those doggies they should at least be as nice as the kitties and cover up their 'doo'... but I sure don't get my knickers in a knot, it's just not worth it... and I say to you folks who do, 'don't sweat the small stuff', life is not worth it... if you can't find something more important to get all upset abt. you need to get out and take a look at the real world...... sally


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I'll bet you a dollar that your neighbor is paying attention. LOL


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

"I practice compassion for all living things, and, having worked and (continuing to) with both animal rescues and wildlife rehabbers, can bet you I saved more animals, on all sides the equation, that most can here imagine."

Then no doubt you are support "Right to Life". Oddly, people who are the most adament about animal right are the first to the same to human babies. It's a bit of hipocracy, don't you think?


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Wow, that's quite a leap in logic Don Licula.


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Skinnyhoops, back to the original question
on how to keep the cats out of your yard.
I bought 2 water shooters from the Dollar Store
and they work just great.
I keep them both loaded with water and
they can spray 20 feet away.
Cat's don't like getting wet,
so 1 or 2 times and they don't come back.
I have a greater problem with the squirrels.
They don't like getting wet either.
........Cheryl


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Thank you for the nice comments

Then no doubt you are support "Right to Life". Oddly, people who are the most adament about animal right are the first to the same to human babies. It's a bit of hipocracy, don't you think?

Huh?! What am adament about and where would you like to point out hipocracy?!
I can see talking about cats- since that is what the thread is about , and plants - since that what the forum is about...but these leaps to religion and abortion, it is rather puzzling. Almost as if some are constantly searching for an excuse to accuse others of beliefs they perceive wrong.

Honestly, your message is so misspelled and so contorted, I am not exactly sure what you suppose I support and what you believe is right.
-- And, truthfully, it does not matter to me either.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

lol, see, we're back to arguing again. Good job rose growers, the cat haters had pretty much settled down. lol


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

see, we're back to arguing again
Who is arguing?!
Cant blame the rose growers (I do not particular consider myself a rose grower...more like a "flower" grower :):) )...

I think your question/comment is more applicable for
"wanna talk religion and abortion" department. Do you know what their beef with rose growers is? hehe


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  • Posted by dghays Z10A FL Brevard (My Page) on
    Mon, Mar 8, 10 at 20:32

Yawn. I was insulted four times before I returned a salvo, but you lack capability to see without bias. It is against the law to have cats outside and not on a leash. It is against the law to kill most songbirds. To condone outdoor cats is to condone the mass killing of songbirds. I'm not a cat hater, but you guys are quick to pass judgement and complain when you're the recipient. I dislike irresponsible people who have or condone outdoor cats. I actually appreciate the motivation to think more about this, because since I've never actually hit a cat with a BB, it'll be way more easy to trap it and take it to the county to be euthanized. End of problem, thank you so much. olya, you said 20 posts ago you'd stop posting on this, it'll be nice if you do what you say, and I'll do what I say and euthanize these cats, compliments of you.


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Well it all depends on where you live if you are allowed to have cats outdoors. When I lived in the Country everyone had outdoor cats as they were much needed to keep the "other" populations down to a safe amount.
My cats live inside here, but go outside when ever they chose. There are loved and give love. I did have a problem once with my cat trying to kill birds, but they took care this problem by themselves. I enjoyed my cat being taught a lesson, some birds are very clever and some cats learn quickly. As for strays we use to feed them, but some of our neighbors would kill them. The owls here seem to keep the stray population down. Seems we only have a few strays, but the catcher will only come "if" we catch the loose strays, then call them. You know I don't mind long post, you don't have to read them and I always thought that gardeners were loving, kind, and caring people so way not just lay back and enjoy everyone input?
Paul


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You know, I thought that too, Wally. Its crazy to see such...well craziness on a gardening board. I go all "Zen" whenever I'm in the garden, spewing forth wisdom and BEING the wind and all that jazz. You would think people who value and cultivate life, whether it be feline, avian, or flora would be a little more kind to their fellow man. ::shrugs::

With that said, Cat Haters 4, (Flower) Growers: 3, Wingnuts: 0

;)


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

  • Posted by dghays Z10A FL Brevard (My Page) on
    Tue, Mar 9, 10 at 14:43

lloyd, here's some of your previous words:
Don't make message board discussions about your principals and character. This is not the forum for that. And you'll only start a flamewar that'll make you seem unreasonable.

Then you keep labelling people cat haters and wingnuts. I guess you want to keep it all going for some odd reason.


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Reasons:

#1. I find it personally amusing. Please feel free to amuse yourself as well. Let's enjoy life.

#2. To defuse serious tension with obvious jest.

#3. I'm labeling myself a cat hater as well. If you really did look at my previous words and not just scan for something to throw back at me, you'd see that I'd qualify as much as anyone else on this board.

#4. Anyone who brings religion or politics to this discussion is as much of a wingnut as a person who says they don't like cats is a cat hater.

It's not that serious. Get a grip. Get a clue. Get a life.


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  • Posted by dghays Z10A FL Brevard (My Page) on
    Wed, Mar 10, 10 at 9:00

In other words, you're a troll.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

lol, now I wish the others would hurry up so we could reach the max post limit.

Yes, I'm a troll. Please go back and read all my trollish comments in this thread. Thanks much, fellow cat hater.


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I personally have two cats...both outside ( except on nights below freezing when I let them in). Both have been pelted with my trusty red ryder and if they bird hunt, it is not in my yard. Go ahead call animal control, etc....outside cats must be leashed ( it is the law) or they may be trapped and taken to the county for pickup or euthanizing. I will agree that a very high powered and "nice" water gun could work just as well....but it needs to be able to shoot at least 60 feet. BTW, my own cats are as loving to me as any others I have owned; they've forgiven me for correcting them, as our children do when we correct them. Animal cruelty? I think not. I liken it to "good parenting". And please don't start some diatribe abut how I must have "corrected" my own children with a BB gun...thats ludicrous...but neither have I spared them the benefits of a good spanking when they were younger.


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I stopped reading at the abortion comment, sure it's not Hitler but I think you can consider this thread Godwinized now.


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  • Posted by dghays Z10A FL Brevard (My Page) on
    Wed, Mar 10, 10 at 14:05

I thought it was preferable to scare away the cats with my weak BB gun to have them euthanized too, but since I was demonized, and admit the cats in my yard weren't learning to stay away, trapping would probably be more effective. I enjoy almost all animals when properly managed, but not at the expense of native wildlife. Yeah, this is an ugly thread, I felt compelled to correct some misinformation, and admit I participated in it's ugliness, I don't take being labelled negatively as well as I should. Party on!


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I'm new to the Florida Gardening Forum, although I've been a long time participant in the Antique Rose Forum. This thread this absolutely appalling! I think I'd rather be friends with the boa constrictor.

I love all animals. I live in the country now and have had some issues with feral hogs tearing up some of my landscape. I don't like them. However, unless one charged at me, I don't think I could bring myself to shoot it. I'm going to invest in some hog fencing....for 10 acres.

Feral cats kill birds for one reason and one reason only. To eat. Human activity would make this feral cat abandon it's food to run for safety. However, well fed domesticated cats, let outdoors, will sometimes kill a bird and not eat it. This is because of instinct and not hunger.

We have some wild bobcats that patrol around our barn at night. I am thankful for that. We have no rats in our barn. I might add that we still have an abundance of birds. Despite the bobcats, and despite the zillions of hawks coming out of the timber woods all day long.

What I have created, and am still in the process of creating, is a bird habitat that includes trees that produce berries, and grasses that produce seeds. Flowers will attract insects for them to feed on. I have a pond that they bathe in. I love birds and other types of wildlife. I no longer set up artificial bird feeders because I found MANY types of animals, particularly squirrels, would have at it and kill the birds. They become an easy target for hawks. It is much better to mimic nature's food supply and provide plants for the birds to forage their food from. The key is to provide a balance of nature.

I have 5 cats that were rescued from a shelter. They have become like family. I keep them indoors, for their safety.

This thread is one of the nastiest I have read in a long time. Shame on you.

Sandy


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

The point some of us have tried to make is that cats have no natural place in Florida's environment. They are, in fact, a huge detriment to it as a whole.

Cats aren't endangered by any stretch of the imagination but a lot of the songbirds that they kill are. If you believe that the life of one house/feral cat is worth the life of one endangered Scrub Jay then you have to understand what that rationale brings with it.

Songbird populations are rapidly declining all over the country and while cats aren't the sole cause, they certainly make matters much worse. On the other hand, cat populations are skyrocketing across the country as humans put up housing developments in rural areas. Cats aren't in any danger of going extinct or even in becoming scarce any millennium soon.

So is it worth it to kill a few cats to save the genetic diversity of Florida's natural wildlife? I personally think it is. A feral/outdoor cat is a direct result of irresponsible pet owners and in my opinion their cats should be taken away from them.

You speak of a balance of nature. Well house cats aren't a part of any "balance" on this continent.


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Well said BigPaulie. And Sandy: I agree this thread has gotten out of bounds, and I respect your decision not to shoot the feral pigs...although we call them WILD HOGS...and, they are delicious if under 100 lbs and even larger if it is a female. You do like pork, don't you? Not that there is anything wrong with vegetarianism.......


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Shame on you, Sandy. All the original participants are over this thread. Please save your judgements. Every person is entitled to live and think how they see fit.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

I wasn't making any judgements whatsoever, and I certainly wasn't being nasty to anyone. All I was saying was how I have been viewing nature, and made some suggestions on how to attract bird life. Read Birds and Blooms magazine. They'll tell you the same thing. Most birding books worth their salt will tell people to plant habitats rather than set up artificial ones.

Whether you chose to do so or not is up to you. I used to put seed out also. I don't any more and actually have more birds. The squirrels figured out how to get into squirrelproof feeders, and were destroying nests and throwing out the baby birds onto the ground. They had impacted the birds in a far greater way than any cats I had observed. At least cats keep the rat population down. Squirrels just try to destroy your house. They are cute.....from a distance and in their own habitat.

Wilmington delaware, I do like meat, and I do hunt sometimes for food. I might take your suggestion and fill my freezer up.

By the way, all animals exist on this earth for SOME reason, and was never based on whether it fits into someone else's agenda. Doesn't matter if they're endangered or not. They were created for a purpose. WE have messed up the balance. So many pets have been considered "disposable" in this society, and irresponsible people decide they are inconvenient and toss them on the street or dump them in a shelter. The animals do what they need to do to survive. It's the human that caused the issue, not the animal. I've seen so many people with the attitude that they would rather spend $200 on some gadget rather than $60 dollars neutering a pet. They shouldn't have the pet in the first place. So then the pet does what is programmed into them. Just like us.

I'll say it again, the tone of this thread is especially nasty, and this type of nastiness is not worth my ever returning to.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

sandy:

"WE have messed up the balance. So many pets have been considered "disposable" in this society, and irresponsible people decide they are inconvenient and toss them on the street or dump them in a shelter. The animals do what they need to do to survive. It's the human that caused the issue, not the animal".

You stop your line of logic where most defenders of outdoor/feral cats usually do.

You are 100% correct in saying people are responsible for the mess of unwanted cats destroying our native wildlife. So if people created the mess then it is up to people to correct it. Strays and ferals should be rounded up and humanely euthanized, instead of simply being released to continue to wreak havoc all across Florida. That is where the Feral Cat Colony people fail to understand the damage of what they do. While they may think they are doing something humane and useful, they are actually doing terrible harm to the environment.


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  • Posted by dghays Z10A FL Brevard (My Page) on
    Fri, Mar 12, 10 at 10:37

"At least cats keep the rat population down. By the way, all animals exist on this earth for SOME reason, and was never based on whether it fits into someone else's agenda. Doesn't matter if they're endangered or not. They were created for a purpose."

Why do rats and squirrels not deserve the empathy given to cats, when there is no big difference between the two, except cats kill way more wildlife. You pick and choose what life has value, so do we. Just we favor native wildlife, and believe that cats are too destructive to have a place in our wilds.

"I wasn't making any judgements whatsoever."
Perhaps you can define what "shame on you" actually means, because that sounds quite like a judgement.

Sandy, I would challenge anyone to show they've planted more natives on their property than me. I've specifically researched wildlife friendly plants (mostly for birds and pollinators), and have over 20 native tree varieties, not to mention shrubs, grasses, etc. I've read that in today's world a feeder can keep birds from starving if there is a bad year (such as the freezes this year). I understand there is much debate on it.

We're all making different distinctions based on our values and disagree. Some people consider it ugly when they're the recipient of negativity, yet are not as empathetic when they do it to someone else. You only see your side and demonize those who don't.


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Surprised to see this thread go on..

I personally think we should call "cease fire" Spring is here, the garden is calling and there is no need for ugliness from either side. Granted, we ALL participated, and I apologize. It is not worth it.

I wont convince someone who believes that cats need to be gone otherwise. And I am sorry I cannot be convinced to instead of fixing a cat to euthanize it. Then why go on at each other?

I do TNR, yes. I keep my own cats inside - I have a few ferals that I feed - all been vaccinated and fixed. My yard is full of huge oaks, has a pond, and lot of wildlife. Possums poo in the pond, birds sings songs all day long, raccoons sometimes go through the compost pile and make a mess, squirrels cause chaos in my bird feeders. My ferals are lazy *sses and wait for wet food. I would give them lots of attitude if they caught a bird, and they generally hang out by the pond watch the fish...
I am sorry, I understand the arguments the other side is presenting me with, but I will not kill these cats in my yard...

I have not added a single cat to the problem we are facing. My main goal of TNR is to reduce feral cat population. I do not want to see hundreds of cats on the street, but I cannot catch and kill either. So I find the alternative some might consider cruel, but it is a slow process of reducing numbers. Most cast we catch are on dumpsters and near people - because like some of you pointed out, WE the people, destroyed the habitats and more cats are now being supported by us. Yes, because of us the numbers went up and unfortunately where where the great populations of people are - the birds are long since gone (apartment complexes, commercial buildings)

My own cats- yes they are indoors. I try to take cats off the streets - most TNR folks do. If the kitten has potential, we socialize. I socialize months at a time, just to prevent that kitten from going back. Life in the house is much better for the cat.

A lot of my cats are disabled...I have a cat who is missing a leg and shoulder, a deaf cat, a cat with all its teeth gone and FIV+, I have a cat with neurological disorder ( cerebellar hypoplasia)...and so on. All came from the streets and found while we did TNR.

This last weekend I caught 8 cats. Three were pregnant. Three litters prevented. I am sorry, I cannot kill the cats, but I can fix them. As far as you are concerned, I did not add to the situation, I did not make the situation worse. These cats were there already, on their way to multiply. At the request of appt management, I got them fixed.

My neighborhood was a mess when I moved in. Two households with lots of outdoor cats. I went and talked and personally did all the work...and most of the paying to get their cats fixed. Now it is nice and quiet, no cats fighting and spraying, no kittens - I must have fixed 15 (8 from just one house!)

All I am saying, I am not releasing new cats in the environment. You can blame me for not killing the cats while they are in my possession or you can blame me for doing anything at all. If someone goes out there and traps them to get them killed after me, there is nothing I can do. I did what I could to simply prevent anymore.

I wish there was a way to make both parties happy. I wish people did not release unneutered animals and left them fend for themselves. I wish people would not abandon animals.

Please, I am not out to argue...I am merely trying to present my side of the story, so no need to pick through my speech and comment on every sentence of it. I am done arguing and I am done picking on any one in particular, and I would appreciate if all sides did the same.


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people feeding and fixing

And sadly, you will be amazed at how many people out there could care less if their animal is fixed or not. Most of the time it is *me* convincing that their animal needs to be fixed! There is no way I can trespass and take possession of the cat, there is no way I can tell the caregiver they need to euthanize the cat or get them fixed themselves - but the only way, over and over again, I have been able to convince these people to fix is when I offer to do most of the work...

Just a few months ago I was driving by a house in a Spanish neighborhood and saw a teenage kitten. I stopped and talked to the people - broken English, rather poor area - the lady explained to me that she had no money to fix the cat AND the cat's tail had been injured severely and half of it fell off. The other remaining half was infected.
I asked the woman to surrender the cat to me, and since the little girl was friendly, I fostered her. Humane Society helped with tail amputation and put her up for adoption.

Otherwise, this cat, if she survived, would be breeding in no time.

Once, I was biking to Publix in the evening and saw little fur balls running all over road. I asked the people - and sure enough, mother cat on premises, they could care less. When asked to surrender the kittens, the people asked if they could hold on to them for a little longer till they grow up, so their kids have something to play with. Unspeakable.

I took possession of the kittens, finally (a few days later) and spayed the mother cat.
Full of fleas, skinny tiny thing...

From Foster Kitties Dec 07

Little Sonia was left at Sonic drive through in atrocious state

From Little Sonia

I cared for her and she found a home within ONE day when she went for adoption (Sonia in the middle):

From Foster kitties October 2008

These guys ALL came from feral moms. All hissing and spitting. No, I am not a horrible TNR person who thinks all feral cats should live outside. I spent countless hours working with them socializing them...and they all never went back. All fixed and adopted.

From Kittens November 2008

Take a look at my gallery. Hundreds of cats, rescued off the streets. I do not have the heart to kill those I could not take off the streets - well, that is the kind of heart I have.

And unfortunately, there are too many people out there who do not care about birds. Who do not even care about fixing their own animals. They will feed, and that is where their care ends. All I am trying to do is to find a middle ground - I am not claiming my approach to be THE solution. And while we are all as a society looking for a solution, I will continue rescuing kittens off the streets and placing them in homes and I will continue my effort to prevent more from being born.

Please take notice, I did not personally attack any single on of you posters here. You can present your side of the story if the need arises in the same manner as well.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

  • Posted by dghays Z10A FL Brevard (My Page) on
    Fri, Mar 12, 10 at 12:48

I certainly agree TNR is better than no TNR. I found being called cat hater, stupid, incompassionate and a flame baiter undesirable, and responded, even if it was directed at a different 'cat hater'. Not sure who did it and I'm too lazy to read this junk again. I'd rather do other things, but was totally compelled to defend bird rights. Tweet, tweet. I'm going to go out and hug my tree when the rain stops.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

I found being called cat hater, stupid, incompassionate and a flame baiter undesirable, and responded, even if it was directed at a different 'cat hater'.

For all it is worth, I apologize on behalf of all cat supporters about that, regardless of who wrote towards who! Name calling has been thrown in all different directions - regardless of who started it - and it was uncalled for. I am guilty as charged, as most are here on this thread

Olya
p.s. incidentally, I blame the never ending rain for my extreme wordiness. Although I am happy to have this rain, I am rather antsy to out and continue my never-ending yardwork!


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

  • Posted by saldut 9-10 st pete, fl (My Page) on
    Fri, Mar 12, 10 at 13:58

Bless you Olya.... after all, we are all going to be judged by 'how we treat the least amongst us'... folks who have no compassion will also be judged whether they like it or not... none of us have the power to decide who should die and who should live, in spite of their posturing otherwise. sally


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

Thank you

Looking at this photo, just wanted to add a few words about the other two kittens (I have lots of stories to tell, unfortunately)

From

Call it fate, or just an accident - I was in a neighborhood I really do not often come to. Saw orange kittens outside - every time I see kittens, I am on alert :) Kittens can be socialized, and kitten mean unfixed moms near by

I knocked on the door. The people were extremely defensive, they would not give up the kittens and they did not want any help. I left my phone number.

Days later, the people called me. Two years ago they got ONE cat. Never fixed her and let her roam in the yard. The next year, she had a litter of five. All stuck around - 3 girls and two boys. The family was just starting to think they have a problem, when the second generation made kittens. Well fed, big yard - of course they will multiply!

I am not lying to you. I ended fostering a litter and finding a foster for two more. That is THREE litters from one yard. One cat was caught pregnant, and the litter prevented. Each litter on average was 4 kittens, so we fostered and adopted out roughly 12 kittens. Add to that a potential litter of 4 that was never born, these people were looking at a total of 16 kittens in one year, and more coming years later.

And wouldn't it be easier to just get that one mother cat fixed? Thinking of that particular situation makes me shake my head - why are people so irresponsible. They care, they often do, but a lot of them cannot look beyond the potential consequences.

And why killing in their case would not work? Because these people would get bitter about losing their animals, but they would continue feeding and attracting more animals, allowing them to procreate. It is like a bottomless bucket.

Now they have 6 fixed cats, and that is where it is to remain for the time being.

Olya
p.s. Pasco county has a ban on feeding ferals and no support on TNR - incidentally, they have one of the worst feral cat problems. Hillsborough county moved in the direction of TNR support and the numbers of animals euthanized, at the tax payer expensive, have steadily been decreasing. We are making a tiny difference, there are less cats out there.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

  • Posted by saldut 9-10 st pete, fl (My Page) on
    Fri, Mar 12, 10 at 14:50

What gets me, is how a person SELF - APPOINTS as Judge, Jury, and Executioner, and feels justified in doing so... just like in those countries where they kill each other because they are different branches of the same religion, or a woman shows some ankle or her hair slips out of the covering, they stone her to death.......it is all senseless cruelty........and we are no better when we pass judgement on a defenseless animal because we have appointed ourselves Judge, Jury, and Executioner....... go figure......... sally


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

  • Posted by dghays Z10A FL Brevard (My Page) on
    Fri, Mar 12, 10 at 19:05

saldut: I guess you're the self appointed judge saying we're incompassionate, while you support cats that kill millions of our native birds. Would someone be guiltless who had the power to stop the nazis and didn't? Just when cooler heads prevail, you have to jump in with your accusatory tone. Just because you don't favor a poor defenseless bird and do a fluffy cat, doesn't mean we all have to. Do you support killing rats, roaches, spiders? If so, YOU'RE THE EXECUTIONER. I guess nothing in this thread sunk into what constitues your head.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

Saldut: your attitude of "Do Nothing" is exactly why we have these travesties happening. It is the decision of people to not fix what they break or even to take responsibility for what they inflict on the rest of the world, that causes native animal populations to plummet around the globe.

You claim it's wrong for people to appoint themselves the judge of who lives and who dies, even when the destructive evidence of doing nothing stares you in the face. Humans impact the world around them. There is no changing that fact.

While I disagree with Olya in the end result and overall effect of TNR, I can certainly understand why she feels the way she does and I do applaud that she has invested a lot of thought and conviction in trying to do the right thing.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

This string is amazing. The obvious solution is so simple and cheap, and it doesn't matter your politics, your take on hitler or abortion or feral cats or guns or even your own abilities or disabilities.

Skinnyhoops, just get a supersoaker water gun and keep it by the door.

Even if you miss, the cats will avoid your yard after a couple of near-misses with getting wet.

(from a cat and bird lover who thinks the politics in this have managed to blur a lot of people's vision.)


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

A "scarecrow" is attached to your garden hose, placed strategically in the ground and motion will set it off. You can adjust the height and direction of the spray. It is quite effective.


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

Today's New York Times makes it apparent that domestic, stray and feral cats are the single greatest destructive force on our nation's bird populations. See link below. Recommended action is to buy a humane cage, and trap the offending cats. Animal control will take it from there if you call them. If animal control is repeatedly called about a neighbor's cat, they will "encourage" the owner to keep the pet indoors. Pet's are animals that are kept WITH a person, not animals that are allowed to roam. Roaming animals are called "strays." Wild cats are called "feral." Just a definition there. A "pet" who roams becomes a "stray" unless it's owner is standing there watching it roam, at which point, you simply tell the owner to keep the pet off your property, which is fundamental liberty in the USA. Finally, if you live in the country, the very best way to eliminate cats is to hop on Amazon and purchase coyote attractant (used by hunters). You keep applying it diligently at the edge of your property, and you will have coyotes within a few months. They are everywhere in this nation, even in populated, coastal Florida where you'd think only Canadians and tourists show up with the migratory birds. Coyotes love to eat cats. Maybe I feel about coyotes like some of you feel about cats. So you'll understand.

Signed, Dances with Wolves
http://www.amazon.com/Buck-Predator-Bomb-Coyote-Urine/dp/B001IVZ9ME/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1359597164&sr=8-2&keywords=coyote+attractant

http://www.amazon.com/Code-Blue-Howlin-Coyote-Attract/dp/B001SH7W0U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1359597164&sr=8-1&keywords=coyote+attractant

http://www.amazon.com/Wildlife-Research-526-Calling-8-Fluid/dp/B0050HBVNI/ref=pd_luc_bxgy_01_01_t_lh?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Here is a link that might be useful: Cuddly Kitty Is A Killer


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RE: Stray cat hunting and killing birds

We have trapped mama and pappa cat so far. Anna's Angel's has paid to get them fixed. We brought them home and let them go. You shouldn't trap them and let them go somewhere else. Cats are very territorial. Too many feral cats here. It feels good to help stop the chain.


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