I don't think that's necessary at all, especially if you're using fabric pots (which will drain better than plastic and dry out more quickly). I grow a variety of berries in Root Pouches, and I've found the 7-10 gallon sizes to be a good place to start.

Wider than deep: I think this comes from the rationalization that generally the roots are found shallow and wide when planted in the ground. Not a necessity, but not necessarily bad advice IMO. See the link below. Well aerated roots probably are comfortable going deeper than they otherwise would be.

One size up: What I have read of this suggestion (container soils thread on container forum) is that when pot media does not drain adequately, and there is too much rootless media at the bottom of the pot, a wet zone may develop that prevents the roots from penetrating this zone. Whereas if you only pot up one size, the roots are in/near this zone already and can take up water preventing it from becoming a water-logged zone. That is the only rational explanation I have heard for the advice to only up size by one size. The solution to this is to ensure you have a well draining media. A fabric pot sitting on the ground will accomplish this. Yes, fabric will change the situation as compared to plastic. I put all my bb's in 15 gallon fabric pots sitting on the ground. So far so good, and no soggy sections the roots can't get to.

Consider this: What happens when you go from a 1 gallon pot to putting them in the ground? That certainly is not a marginal upsizing! The difference is that proper planting spots in the ground do not hold excess water in the root zone. It eventually percolates below the root zone only leaving "damp" soil in the root zone. Certainly giving the roots more room than a marginal upsize is not the issue. The issue is the container dynamics.

If you haven't read Container Soils - Water Movement and Retention XVIII, then I would suggest it as a worthwhile read to consider what potting mix you will use.

I myself would not follow the advice in the container forum. Good info, but the one size fits all approach just doesn't work well enough for me. Each plant type is different, and have different needs.
As Shazaam says 7 gallons would be a good place to start.
Raspberries need the most room of the three IMHO, often throwing runners as far as 7 feet away in ground. The darn things are invasive, and hard to control. I have about 21 plants or so. I'm always having to remove stray canes!

Great replies! Thanks this really helps. And great to know that others are potting berries in these fabric pots, root pouches and what not; I hadn't heard of others doing that. I actually was concerned that the roots might be too strong and go through the fabric but I guess that's not the case.

So it seems to be that the fabric pots will provide good draining and not create the kind of wet or saturated conditions that might congest or hinder the roots if the pot is too big for the current plant - great! Makes this much easier.

Charina,

thanks for that link and illustrating things with water at the root zone, that makes sense

I guess I'll be able to get the larger fabric pots without worry :)

Don't use lime in the pots as often suggested in the other forum, not for brambles or blueberries. Blueberries like a super acidic soil, brambles like a slightly acidic soil. Blackberries grow pretty big roots, so do raspberries. Blueberries grow fine roots, not very deep. But like being moist with a PH of about 4.8. If you cannot monitor PH for the blueberry it will be hard to grow. Tap water is often very basic, and even if in an acidic soil can slowly up the PH to a point the blueberry will not grow anymore, hence you need to know where the PH is at. Use acidic fertilizers for all of them. But wait till they establish and start growing before fertilizing. If in a soilless mix a light dose 1/4 to 1/2 strength is ok.

Do you think 15 gal is good for brambles? I was going to buy a 10 pack of the fabric pots of the 15 gallon size. It says it's 17''H by 15"W.

I read somewhere on the forum of someone adding battery acid to their tap water to acidify it, but I haven't looked further into this. I was planning to get a ph monitor, what do you do for your water then to keep it from affecting the BB's ph?

As for the soil, I know that Dave Wilson has a soil mix recipe for BB, but I've also been looking on the forum to see what others do. Do you have any suggestions?

OK, you seem to be doing your homework, good, it means you probably will soon have blueberries. The Dave Wilson potting mix formula is a good one. If you cannot find good pine bark fines. Use Fafard potting mix 52 mix is a good one for blueberries. Fafard dot com has a store finder that carry their products. When looking for pine bark fines look for soil conditioners and mulch. you want 1/4 to 1/2 inch size. If some powder, OK for blueberries. I use rainwater I currently have over 200 gallons on hand. But when out, and I have a lot of plants, that's only about 2 weeks of watering all plants for me. I use battery acid in tap water.
15 gallon would be fine. the cloth bags due to air pruning make them like a 30 gallon pot! So yes, that would work.
If you go to Greenhouse Megastore you can buy a 15 gallon root pouch, top of the line, longest lasting one for $7.00. $56.00 for 10. The brown ones!

I myself use a complex potting mix. I'm still working on it.
So prefer not to recommend it till I test it. I keep finding better products, so the mix is in flux. Currently it is 2 parts pine bark fines 2 parts peat moss 1/2 part diatomaceous earth (1/4 inch size granule). 1 part compost in peat mix. Most compost is in soil, but found some mixed with peat. Keeps the PH down! 1 cup sulfur, 2 tbsp azomite or green sand 1 part Fafard 52 mix. Subject to change at any second.

Here is a thread for you re pH management in pots. Adjusting pH in containers

I have pine bark mulch from HD. It doesn't say the size or that it's good for conditioning the soil but it says pine bark mulch. I also got part moss from HD.

As for the "forest by-product based potting soil" that Dave Wilson calls for I was unsure what to do. I couldn't get the fafard mix or find azalea potting mix. What do you think of mushroom compost? They have it at lowes and I read it has a nutrual pH. I also got ammonium sulphate, I havent been able to find sulphur yet. I have come across the organic soil acidifier in the white and blue bag at HD and lowes , it has 30% sulphur. Is that OK or should I still look for sulphur? I've read that the ammonium sulphate can be tricky to use for home gardeners, I'm not sure if I should return it.

I also got fertilizer for acid plants by miracle grow.

I hope you'll still be able to see this post and hopefully can give me some guidance.

No, I wouldn't use mushroom compost, and standard pine bark mulch is probably much too large (you want individual bark pieces that range from very fine up to a max of 1/2" or so). Home Depot stores in the Charlotte, NC area carry a product from Timberline called "Soil Conditioner" that I've used in the past, but I prefer the aged pine bark fines that I buy in bulk from my local landscape supply (less sapwood). Still, if you can't find anything else, look for the Timberline product. Also, the Dave Wilson mix is good, but you'll also get good results from a mix of pine bark fines, peat, and perlite. Something like 60% bark, 25% peat, and 15% perlite would be a good place to start, and you can skip the acidifier -- the pH of this mix should be just right without any manipulation.

You probably need to screen the pine bark. You want 1/4 inch or smaller. You can break up bigger pieces by hand, but it takes forever. It's tough to find decent bark! The soil acidifier is fine, it is elemental sulfur, so yes, that is fine. You don't need pure sulfur. I myself would keep the ammonium sulfate, just start with 1/4 teaspoon per gallon once a week. For the blueberries. A dose or two the other plants would like, but long term use on raspberries and blackberries may make the soil too acidic for them. Use the miracle Grow product on them, it is not as acidic. They like some acid! But I would wait till they are established, do not use it till they are use to the new home and growing. That goes for all plants.
If the pine bark is too big, find Fafard! At fafard dot com is a store locator, just put in your zip. You may discover a cool independent nursery! You could use this instead of 5-1-1. But 5-1-1 is a good way to go with all the plants.
So you need pine bark 1/4 inch or smaller, peat moss, and perlite or potting soil, either one! You should be able to buy that. Or use Fafard straight out of the bag, pine bark can be added to it to increase bark content. Don't add peat. The pine bark is probably too large, It is a problem that constantly comes up. Many buy hardware cloth, which is a metal mess. You can buy it with 1/4 inch squares, you use it to filter out larger pieces. Fine dust is not good either, but can be used, just add less peat moss, the dust is just like peat.

I found an independent nursery that sells smaller pine bark. Often sold as soil conditioner, or mulch.
Look at the container forum for ideas on what products work. Lot's of posts about looking for pine bark.
It is really important to use the right size. It's the main ingredient in the mix. You can use perlite instead of forest by-product potting soil, although that is what fafard is.
I would not use mushroom compost myself. I think it would be a mistake.
So add the acidifier only to the blueberries, otherwise you can use this mix for all plants.
For fertilizer ammonium sulfate is just a supplement, you need to use others that contain all the other nutrients. Holly-tone is good and can be used. Any other complete fertilizer too. Use the miracle acid fertilizer at 1/2 strength. Don't use any until plants are established. You can add osmocote to the mix if you wish for the brambles, don't use it for the blueberries.
I use holly-tone, and once a month use 1 teaspoon of ammonium sulfate, for 4 months. April-July. But my plants are big and established.
Use the miracle grow, but next time buy holly-tone. You can use either on all plants mentioned.

There's a good photo of pine bark fines in the thread to which I've linked below -- ideally, that's what you want.

Here is a link that might be useful: Pine Bark Fines

Okay, so I'm going to upload a picture of the pine bark mulch. I think it's too big. I only have one bag of the stuff, from HD, it was about $3.

There is one Nursery sort of close to me that is suppose to sell the fafard brand. I see there are different mixes of the Fafard, what is the name exactly of the one that I'm looking for? Is this a complete mix that I would use instead of mixing my own pine bark, peat and perlite? Also, just so I'm clear if I I'm using perlite instead of the potting mix, am I still using the proportions as in the Dave Wilson mix? Or in a 5-1-1 proportion? Or...?

Also it seems like this is a soilless mix. So is it getting nutrients mainly from the fertilizers?

Actually, when I picked up the perlite today the guy at HD asked me what it was for. I told him about my blueberries in containers and the mix. He said I should just use potting soil and that I didn't need it. I said, but I need it to be acidic. He said just to use acidifier and that it'll be more cost effective to buy bagged potting soil than the big bag of perlite, but I told him I have 6 blueberries and a few raspberries and blackberries. He was really chuckling at the thought of me buying this and was really adamant. To me it seems like I'd spend more $ on potting soil for all my berries and I don't know about the fertilizers in them or the pH or lime or draining but I just smiled, I told him I'd think about what he said but I'll still get the perlite.

I know this is confusing. The pine bark mulch does look too big, use it as mulch on top of the pots, or elsewhere.
You can never have too much mulch! Fafard, 52 mix is nice, but ANY will do. Fafard is a mix of pine bark, peat and perlite, so yes you can use it alone. Some mixes have fertilizer, or compost, but every mix is pine bark, peat and perlite, maybe some vermiculite too. But using any Fafard mix alone is OK. Look for pine bark at the nursery that
carries Fafard, maybe they have some finer bark.
The Dave Wilson mix or 5-11 will work. You can substitute perlite for the potting soil portion in the Dave Wilson mix.
Both mixes are soilless, Fafard is soilless, so yeah you need the fertilizers to add nutrients.
If you cannot find a better pine bark, take back the perlite, and use Fafard straight. The place that sells fafard may have a better pine bark mix too, usually independent nurseries have more options.
The photo you posted is not only too big, it looks to have lot's of sap wood in it too! Not good! It looks terrible, I don't even see any bark!
So you have peat, and perlite, all you need is pine bark. If you cannot find the right bark, return the peat and perlite and buy fafard.
It's up to you if you want to use the Dave Wilson Mix, 5-1-1, or Fafard, all are decent! The first two options require pine bark.

OK, so here is what I would do. I would pack up the peat and perlite and receipts in the car, go to where they sell the Fafard, look for pine back there, you want pine bark, no bigger than that quarter, if some is, that is OK, but at least 70% has to be smaller.than the quarter. that is the size you want. If you cannot find it, the hell with it but Fafard, go back to the box store and return the peat and perlite.

Also it is a lot cheaper if you make your own, I need so much I have to! Here are my pots this year, I used pine bark, peat, Fafard, and Diatomaceous earth (instead of perlite).
This is only about 1/2 of my pots. The others are in front.

Drew's absolutely right -- the mulch you bought is way too big and has way too much sapwood. Did you look at the photo in the link that I posted? The difference is night and day. As for the guy at Home Depot, he's wrong, wrong, wrong. Don't even consider using regular potting soil. One of the Fafard mixes might be OK, but I'd be surprised if they aren't pH adjusted...so the pH might be higher than is ideal.

As you continue to search, keep your eyes open for anything called "soil conditioner" or "clay breaker" or something similar. Those types of products are very often 100% aged pine bark fines. At one point, Fafard even offered one, and they still might.

This post was edited by shazaam on Sat, May 17, 14 at 21:50

You guys are awesome! Thanks so much for all this help you're giving me, I really appreciate it :) Regarding the mulch, I could never differntiate sapwood or bark in there! I knew my mulch was suspect especially after that posted photo which I did see and... yeah, it looks nothing like what I have. But I had to show you guys my mulch and get confirmation on it b/c ???... it says "Pine Bark Mulch". I get it now and felt the confusion about what it is and where to get it starting off but I went online and thought, "Oh, Home Depot has it." Guess not.

About the Fafard mix, I didn't see "52" as one of the ones I saw online but if any of them will be okay I'll see what this nursery has. It's the only one in my county apparently that sells it. But I'll also call up a few nurseries and ask if they have "soil conditioner" or "clay breaker."

Drew, that's some great container gardening going on there. Looks like you grow a lot of things in containers, cool. I have the grey grow bags from greenhousemegastore (hope they last a good long while). I have a couple garden beds but for my berries there all in pots and I only have several this year, but it's just the beginning!!! I hope to have a plethora of berries, especially blueberries so I really want to make/aquire good soil and such.

Here's one of three raspberry patches I have. I also have 12 blackberry plants. They are all trimmed down, or newly planted, so not much to see. Photo taken 2 days ago.
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Some of my cacti, tropicals, and ornamental peppers
Not a great photo!
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I was a novice fruit grower last year so many will disagree with my mix but it seemed to work OK. My 30 Blues are in 10 gallon plastic pots. I used a 1/3rd each mix of peat, shredded pine bark mulch from a big box store and Miracle Grow potting soil. I had to water every day last year in the heat but now only every other day as the soil is very loose. I used Mir-Acid plant food once a month and that was it. I lost two berry bushed last Winter that were actually a southern type I was trying but all the rest are blooming like crazy!

Here is where the blueberries in pots are placed in the "orchard."

That's beautiful wood forming your beds, Drew. What is it?

treehugger, I wish I had that much space. Nicely laid out.

I think I found pine bark mulch! I was looking on the forum and somebody suggested Agway as a retailer for good pine bark mulch in the NJ area which is not to far from me so I checked their store locator and they have a store in my area. I went online and this is what it looks like:

Here's the link for the product info:
http://www.agway.com/catalog/home_and_garden/mulches/pine/10202313_agway_pine_bark_mulch_3_cuft.html

it says 100% southern pine bark.

Sorry this picture is so big.

What do you guys think?

This looks a lot better than what I have and much closer to the pictures of "pine fines" I've seen. I called and they say they have them in stock so I'll go see in person. If this ends up being no good, hmm... I could check a few other local independent nurseries.

Treehugger, you have a beautiful garden or orchard I should say. Good to hear your blues are doing well. If my mulch find doesn't work out I figured I'd also have to work with an alternative mix.

I checked the other nursery that sells the fafard brand they only sold their topsoil and compost; they don't carry the 52 mix and they only had pine nuggets, but it's a really beautiful nursery though, a LOT of gorgeous plants.
Drew , I like how you have your beds sectioned and laid out; I also second the comment on your wood.

Perfect!

Yes, the bark is great! Give me some!! Treehugger looks awesome! My beds are made with just regular pine. Boards have a water based acrylic stain, 2x12 inch boards. . They probably will not last that long. Treated wood would be an option that would last a touch longer. These days they use copper to preserve wood. I'm moving in 4 years, and just need my beds to last that long.
I was thinking any replacement boards I will try the copper treated pine.

So I screened the pine bark mulch since some of the pieces looked large. Is it mandatory to screen mulch to 1/4" -3/8" in size?

Here's what it looks like after I screened it. That's a quarter in case you can't tell.

Also, I have Epsome soil acidifier. I don't know if these directions apply to soil for plants about to be potted but for potted plants it says 1 tbs per 4 inches of diameter. My large grow bags are 17" wife. So that would be about 4 tbs per this 15 gallon pot, and it's 30% sulfur. I don't know if anyone's worked with this before but does that sounds okay?

And for a complete fertilizer, do I also wait until it's established to apply? And actually I have some aconite so I put some of that in.

I mixed up a batch and here's what it looks like.

I suspect your pH should be good right now. Use the soil acidifier if your water has high pH and you are not correcting that prior to watering. The metabolism of the sulfur to sulfuric acid over time will counteract cumulative effects of raising the pH via irrigation. To know how much, you will need a way to test pH and adjust accordingly as time passes.

Were it me, I would add the fertilizer now. Given the time of year, the plants will be ready to use it.

The sulfur amount is correct, I myself would use it for the blueberries. Anyway yeah your water is probably basic, at best neutral, as acidic water eats pipes. The amount of acidifier is not crucial, 1 tbsp either way will not change much. The new mix looks excellent btw!
On fertilizer, my only concern is I have seen plants in trouble become worse with fertilizer. A small amount though is safe, so no worries. Organic fine too. Often new plants have root damage. This year I got 4 new blueberries, 2 of them struggled at first, 2 were good to go. It took about 5 weeks for the blueberries to recover from the shock of transplant.
I had a few plants slow to start this year, but all is going well now. It's not just transplant, but acclimating them and such can be tricky. I did a great job hardening off my tomatoes and peppers this year, but not so good with the blueberries. Part of the set back was probably my fault, giving them too much sun too early. It took a month to get them to full exposure, usually it's 2 weeks.

This post was edited by Drew51 on Tue, May 20, 14 at 23:34

I'm a little confused on fertilizer regarding a few things.

Would you use ammonium sulfate if you applied soil acidifer?

And because this is a soil-less mix do I fertilize differently? I was reading about the 5-1-1 mix which I know is not the exact proportions I'm using but from what I understand you fertilize differently than with soil potting soils, so how often and at what strength should I fertilize (and during what parts of the year)?

I'm new to this type of mix so I can't help but feel there should be dirt in it! But I love how light it is, makes for easy moving! Can they really get all their nutrients from fertilizer alone? There's this thought in the back of my head, "maybe I should put some compost in there."

And I have to water more often, is that right?

Also, I don't know if this is relevant to me but I read people referring to the 5-1-1 as a yearly mix, do I have to re-pot the blueberries regularly?

Oh, and should I or can I mulch the top of the pots with the larger pine bark?

Again, thanks everyone!

"Would you use ammonium sulfate if you applied soil acidifer?" You mentioned the soil acidifier above, but I'm not familiar if that has fertilizer in it in addition to the 30% sulfur. That is something to take into account. The two may be mutually exclusive, but also might overlap.
"And because this is a soil-less mix do I fertilize differently?"Without soil or compost, yes, it is different. Whatever fertilizer you choose, or assortment of fertilizers, try to ensure that one contains a broad range of fertilizers - not just the primary NPK. But the secondary, and micronutrients as well. Soils often have these secondary and micronutrients present. Mixes, not so much. Frequency and amount is variable across products, and according to the label. Fruitnut recently suggested a controlled release fertilizer by Gertens to someone else. See: Gertens 3lb on Amazon This appears to be a simple option. Per the manufacturer's website: "This product contains macro and micronutrients"
"Can they really get all their nutrients from fertilizer alone?" Yes, as long as it is complete, as mentioned above. The standard 10-10-10 or 10-2-8, etc don't always have the secondary and micronutrients you want to provide to a soilless mix.More often they do not. Others in the organic camp will disagree, but I'm of the persuasion that ions are ions, no matter what the source. Ammonium (NH4) is made up of one Nitrogen atom, and four Hydrogen atoms whether those atoms were arranged synthetically, or through natrual decomposition processes. It is the same elemental ingredients by the time the plant is using it no matter the source. All you have to do is ensure the mix has all the needed elemental components - which fertilizers with secondary and micronutrients do.
"And I have to water more often, is that right?" Typically, yes.
"Also, I don't know if this is relevant to me but I read people referring to the 5-1-1 as a yearly mix, do I have to re-pot the blueberries regularly?" Any organic based potting mix will need periodic replacement. I wouldn't expect your mix to last only 1 year. It will degrade over time and hold open less and less air space, but it will still be acceptable. A yearly repot isn't a bad idea, but not absolutely necessary.
"Oh, and should I or can I mulch the top of the pots with the larger pine bark?"I do. It helps keep the top from drying out to the point that it becomes hydrophobic and difficult to water initially. Looks better IMO too.

The above is really good advice. I myself use both soluble and organics. I'm experimenting a little this year, but usually I use an organic to supply other nutrients, and trace minerals, or add them via other products like azomite, kelp, or rock phosphate. And yes I use soil acidifier, sulfuric acid in the water, and ammonium sulfate as long as PH is above 5.0, if lower, I stop the acid, and ammonium. It does not take long for it to creep up. Over the winter my raised beds went from 4.8 to 6.5.

Crystena - My name is Al, and I spend a lot of time on the container forum. I just stumbled on this thread while cking something out. I want to say you're getting a LOT of bad and superfluous information here. I wouldn't be surprised if you're totally confused by what you're reading. Do come visit us at the container forum.

Al

"Do come visit us at the container forum. "
Wow, I things that dead in the container forum you have to go trolling on other forums for users?

So Al what berries do you grow?

This post was edited by Drew51 on Tue, Jul 15, 14 at 8:18