MRSG47,

Ichi ki kei jiro is a natural dwarf non-astringent Asian persimmon tree. Hardy to zone 6. Heigh about 10 feet. One of the most hardy Kaki.

Tony

Tony thanks so very much! I will start looking on the web as to where to purchase this beauty! I hope it will turn bright orange! thanks again, Mrs. G

Reading what you copied from Jerry Lehman, Tony, you've got me wondering thinking about persimmons going splat, as Jerry said. I hadn't thought about taller trees making the problem worse, but that makes sense. What about fruit size? Does larger size make the splat problem worse, too?

Hello to Everybody from Europe, from Hungary!

Could You tell me if European kaki cultivars (italian and spanish ones) /for example Tipo, Triumph, Vainiglia, Rojo brillante, etc./ are known and common in America or they are rarities or miss absolutely?

CF,

You can control the size by pruining the top. Persimmon will be loaded with fruits and that will bend alot of branches down and that will keep it closer to the ground. Most of mine are grown in the field and the grass underneath will help Cushing it so I don't have that kind of issue even for the bigger varieties. If you grow it near a cement pathway and that will be an isue.

Tony

Tony,
the Persimmon tree can be kept compact, practising the following method:
We know, it tends to grow long, hanging branches because the fructifying new parts developing during a season grow esclusively on the tops of the branches. So, the branches become longer and longer and their terminal parts thinner and thinner from year to year. What to do to avoid "hanging branches effect"?
In the first years of life our tree doesn't request any intervention of pruning. Or you can cut off some branches for obtaining a more regular form.
But! In the year when it is yet big enough and begins to hang its branches, you MUST make the first drastic pruning intervention. It consists in shortening the thicker branches, cutting off their last parts on the tops. So you'll have the following year poor in fruits. But during the same year you'll have a "never seen" developing of new parts full with fructifying buds, preparing to a better fructification than ever, for the next year. You can repeat shortening interventions in the consecutive years maintaining the compactness of your tree and getting excellent productions at the same time.

I made two illustrations to my text:

What happens if...

and what happens if...

Branches full with fruits and with new prepared fructifying parts, thick branches without bending, strengthened enough by the described pruning method

Branches full with fruits and with new prepared fructifying parts, thick branches without bending, strengthened enough by the described pruning method

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To be seen better

Ninovarga,

Good demonstration. Is that Giant Hana Fuyu? What is the max height of your persimmon tree that you would like to keep? What is the lowest temperature (F) of your region in Hungary?

Tony

NV, the varieties you mention are probably known here by other names.

Tony,
the height is determined by my harvest instruments: by the length of an apple-picker and of a telescopic shears, up to 5 meters c.ca. (I can use European measures, you should convert them in Anglo-Saxon measures.)
On the picture you can see our "harvesting system" and the same tree of the preceding pictures in an earlier fase: in the transition fase from free growing to shortened branches. Most of branches in higher positions yet shortened with some evident consequences, branches in lower positions in part not shortened but before imminent shortening.
I will speak about temperatures after this demonstration because it request some longer explanation.

The harvested part of the production and an abundant quantity on the tree

Top of the tree with shortened branches and a few of fruits

Harvesting

Often harvesting cut means definitive pruning cut

The variety is TIPO.
We had a serial of cold winters in the last three years with an absolute minimum temperature of -12,5 degrees (Celsius), 2009-2010 (-12,5), 2010-2011 (-8,6), 2011-2012 (-12,4), the lowest temperature of the last 30 years was in 2005 (-14,5).
But this is a hill, in the valleys temperatures sink lower, sometimes up to a difference of 10-12 degrees. It means that a true determination of the hardiness zone of a territory is always "tridimensional". The temperatures of wind calm snow covered nights are extremely depend on the thermic inversion.

Correction: The temperatures of wind calm snow covered nights are extremely different between hill and valley, influenced by thermic inversion.

If you are looking for persimmon varieties to grow, here are a lot of photos I gathered from the net. Hope this help.

Tony

ASIAN PERSIMMON VARIETIES 'KAKIS'

Ichi Ki Kei Jiro
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Tanenashi
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Giant Hana Fuyu
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Jiro Fuyu
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Imoto Fuyu
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Giant Fuyu
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Hachiya
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Suruga
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Gosho
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Honan Red
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Fire Crystal
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Greatwall
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Hao River
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Tapapsco
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Sheng
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Nikita's Gift
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Rossyanka
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Chocolate
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Triumph
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Rojo Brillante
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Sharon

Tamopan
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Wase Fuyu
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Tamkam
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Costata
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Ormond
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Hyakume
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Kyung San Ban Si
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Saijo
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Coffeecake
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Izu
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Shin Na DA
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AMERICAN PERSIMMON VARIETIES

Prok
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Yates
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Garretson
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Meader
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Geneva Long
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Szukis
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C-100
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U-20A
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Early Golden
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John rick
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Lena
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100-46
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100-47
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Morris Burton
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Ruby
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J-59
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Killen
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A-118
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B-59
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Miller
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Hao River is present in Hungary named 'Costata' or it's a different one but very-very similar.

NV,

Hao River is more conical shape from China and Costata is from Japan. By the way, how old is your TIPO?

Tony

Tony,
now it is 18 years old but these pictures have been made 5 years ago. That time I made them for didactic goal, demonstrating my methods on a Hungarian gardening forum similar to this one.

For a long while I used to write in that forum wanting to transmit my gardening experiences. I made photos of all species in every phenological phases and explained through demonstrations what, why and how to do.
Now I gathered some older pictures to render more tangible, I began to explain You yesterday.
It's very important to know, how to prune Persimmon.

First phase

It's good without pruning or with some "aesthetic" cut

Dear Tony,
I'm a bit tired and sleepy, I'll continue tomorrow. I'm posting a picture of a Costata fruit from today, to say good night to You and to all in America because the night will come there too, yet I met it in Europe and I'm going to bed.

Hello Nino,
You obviously have a lot of knowledge about persimmons. Thank you for sharing your ideas. Do you think these ideas for pruning would also apply to American persimmons (Diospyros virginiana) or only to Asian persimmons (Diospyros kaki)?
Thanks
John S
PDX OR

Cliff England offers Rojo Brilliante and Sharon(which is Triumph, IIRC).

Guys,

American Meader (Virginiana) persimmon picked at late green stage and let it sat on the windowsill for 2 weeks and ripen as well as NC-10. So, there you go. Early harvest if too much pressure from critters.

Tony

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I have ordered an NC-10 from England, but now I'm thinking about getting an Ichi Ki Kei Jiro also. England does not have this one. Would you suggest the Ichi Ki Kei Jiro for zone 5 with protection above the ones England has?

England's catolog says that, "They select over many others for the taste, size and cold hardiness." He has Shin Na Da, Tae Chu, and Seo Chon.

I have found Ichi at Starks, Edible Landscaping, and Just Fruits and Exotics.

Any suggestions? Tony, which is your best producer? I think Denver is similar to your environment.

MG,
I like Ichi for cold hardy, small size tree, non-astringent, and early ripening.
Ichi from Starkbros is very small. El, I have not order from them yet. Just F&E , they send out a good size tree with well establish roots in a bigger pot , but the price is a little higher for the quality tree. If you do winter protection like I do then Ichi will be a good fit. very small tree for easy protection. The two new varieties from Cliff sounds interesting. I hope someone try it out and let us know about it. He also has couple new American persimmons are very large.

Tony

Some of you are really pushing the cold limits of the Kaki, but best of luck with them. I believe I have 21 cultivar of Kaki and Kaki X American hybrids. I have had more issues with late cold spells after the trees broke dormancy than ultimate winter lows. Last spring I took considerable damage on all my persimmon and lost a few trees completely above the grafts. Unfortunately last spring was as well when I put out 12? cultivars mostly from Just Fruits and Exotics. This all happened at temperatures of around 27 F. They handled much colder temps when fully dormant, just don't get real optimistic on ultimate listed lows, if you are in a area that sometimes has extended warmth in spring followed by even a light freeze you may lose more then that years crop, and area that is prone to erratic springs is sometime to be considered as well.

SD,
It has been a while since your last post. I was curious about the status of your Kakis from that late cold spell. My kakis were spared from that cold spell during late April because they benefited from the micro climate from which I grew them within 5-8 ft from the southside of my house. I have not seen any frost within 10 feet from the southside of the house and no north winds. I know that I am pushing the cold limits for Kakis, but the last 5 years I have seen the temperature drop to -26F and with my protection they came throught OK. It is gradifying to be able to grow kakis in zone 5a (-20F).

Tony

In review of the damage of late spring light freeze around 27 F after extended warm spring. I had 30+ trees in ground, but only one of most cultivars which is not sufficient to fully evaluate. In particular when the cultivar I have multiples of did not all fare the same. I have Fuyu from 5 different sources, although one appears to me to be Jiro (called Fuyu sometimes on west coat). For instance 2 Fuyu trees planted 15 feet apart from same source same day in 2009 seemingly identical in vigor and health. One tree dead to the ground with only below ground rootstock shoots recovering, the other total loss of foliage but minimal wood damage and fully re-leafed. With that in mind below is report of how my different cultivars seemed to manage the late freeze after growth had started. I don't recall which cultivars were just breaking bud as opposed to being fully leafed but I believe that probably factored in damage. My plantings are located in small creek valley of bottom land with high ridgeline to both sides. My setting/micro-climate is not ideal, but my bottom land is cleared and my higher sloping land is fully forested so it's the space I have available present. I plan on moving later this year to a location I can reside with my plantings. My current plantings are about an hour drive from my residence, and initially I hope to manage both sites. Probably too much information but the difference in temperature in within a few hundred feet with a elevation change can be significant and I believe is more informative then the actual cultivar results.

All trees were completely defoliated with the exception of Rosseyanka and Tamopan. Rosseyanka was not a surprise faring the best, but Tamopan was. Again limited data(1 tree) is of limited value.

Fuyu - In general my Fuyu took more damage then most, 2 trees took minimal wood lose, 3 trees totally lost above graft, and others took significant wood loss. The reason I have so many Fuyu trees, as it is the most widely available tree and among my oldest trees aging from 2009 2010
Matsumoto Wase Fuyu - 2010 trees 1 tree dead to graft, 1 tree major wood loss, 1 tree limited wood loss
Izu - 1st year tree limited wood loss, 2010 Fuyu grafted over to Izu limited wood loss
Eureka - 2010 tree moderate wood loss
Great Wall - 2010 tree minimal wood loss
Saijo - 2010 tree minimal to no wood loss
Tamopan - 2009 tree retained around 50% foliage minimal wood loss. Abnominally? Never heard this tree reported as hardy, but it is an older larger tree, but so were the Fuyu beside it.
Jiro - 2010 tree lost to below graft

1st year tree limited wood loss
Rosseyanka Retained significant foliage, maybe no wood loss
Nikita's Gift
Izu
Ichikikeijiro

1st year tree significant wood loss
Giombo
Sheng
Maekawa Jiro

1st year tree Major wood loss
Hachiya
Hao River
Unknown Huge PCNA
Tanennashi

Young grafts still in pots protected
Giomba (same as Giombo? Listed separate on UC Davis source site)
Okugosho
Tam Kam
Suruga
Cheintang

SD and All,

That is some very valuable datas that we can use to assess hardiness of Asian persimmons after the trees leafted out. Are you planning to relocate those trees to your new home.That will be a major task since you have so many trees.
SD and all, I am going to try a new method to protect the Kakis if late frost set in after the tree leafed out. I will hang a 120v light bulb in the center of the tree and turn it on for the duration of that cold spell and wrap up the whole tree with a giant tarp from Home Depot or Menards to keep the heat in. I think that will raise the temperature inside the tree significantly. I think this method and the micro-climate of the house will prevent the tree from freezing. Creek, Scott, SD, Lucky, what are your thoughts about this method?

Tony

I have no experience with kaki, but I have a lot of experience with hoop houses and winter vegetables. First off, the uncovered dirt will give off kilowatts of heat, so the bulb is a minor correction. It is crucial that there be no mulch inside the tent. Second, a proper seal is essential. That is obtained by weighing down the tarp or plastic sheet with cinder blocks all around the perimeter, with little or no gap for wind to get in (when there is snow on the ground, the seal is usually perfect).

So do not waste your time with bulbs, the dirt (which you should water a couple of times during the winter, to increase the thermal ballast) will store heat during sunny days, and release it at night. The coldest nights are usually after sunny days, and the system is self-correcting. I eat a number of greens in January and February, from the garden.

glib,

For trees would you suggest plastic sheeting or tarp material, and would you suggest leaving it on all winter or putting it up when a cold spell hits? It's hard to make myself run out in a blizzard to cover my trees for some reason:)

If you suggest something that lets light in will this not make the heat/cool cycle more variable?

I put up my hoop houses during Thanksgiving week end. I take them down sometimes in March, according to the season (earlier if I eat everything). For trees, probably you want to take them down earlier. I have one 100X40 sheet of clear plastic, and another which is 80X40 or so, and next year I will use them finally, as I am going to attempt Asian persimmons in MI.

The heat/cool cycle depends on the thermal ballast and thermal coupling to the ballast. Yes, it will be more variable, but you are trying to protect trees. Your post forced me to think in a little more detail about how I would do it for a tree, since so far the tallest plant I have grown under cover are collards.

Probably, for a tree I would also put a 55 gallon drum under the cover, or a number of 5 gallon buckets, and make sure that the soil is moist at all times. The cycle is moderated by thermal contact, but also by high humidity, that is on a sunny day water evaporates from the soil, condenses on the plastic, freezes at night (in the morning, the hoop houses are completely frosted), providing extra insulation, and drips down again in mid-morning. Rodents like hoop houses, so a tree guard is essential.

If you are afraid of the thermal cycle, without a doubt you should use a dark tarp. A good seal and bare, moist soil are the two big improvements.

I'm thinking of how the clear plastic might induce earlier blooming. On the other hand a dark tarp might absorb more heat.

I suppose it's trial and error, hopefully not too much error.

Glib,
That sounds good if you are planning for a whole winter protection. My method of wrapping the tree with a tarp and stuffed it with dry leafs work just fine. I am talking about in late April and early May when you have span of temperature in the 80's-90s for 2-3 weeks, and out of the blue the Canadian winds move in and drop the temperature from upper 80's down to 27F for a day or so, and frost forms in low lying areas and valleys at night. Late frost will wipe out fresh, and tender new growths. I just want to protect the fresh leafs for a couple of nights.

Tony

The challenges of growing kakis in zone 6 are very different than I would imagine them to be in zone 5 but we still have to cope with the late season freezes. These occur for me on average once a season and usually for just a few hours, 5A- 8A typically. So given the options, as much as I hate getting up in the wee hours to do gardening, I prefer misting in my grogginess during one lamentable night or two to the labor of building protective structures which will just need to be disassembled once the danger has passed.

Something else to consider is rootstock. I have one persimmon from Edible Landscape, purchased about 10 years ago, topworked to Russian Kaki. A few years ago I dug up some succors from the base of this tree and planted them elsewhere. The original tree and the Virginiana rootstock from the tree all leaf out about 2 weeks earlier than any other tree or ungrafted rootstock. I think my best course of action is to destroy all the rootstock dug from this tree, and use others that leaf out later as the stock for future grafts.

Ninovarga, Clifford England also has Vaniglia, I got one and it died, how is the fruit for you?

On pruning, I do something similar, but my point is to keep from using a ladder, they are not safe on my hilly ground. I have a Nakita's Gift, it is about 6' high, and maybe 9'wide. Much easier to pick this way.

Benny,

Good to here from you. If you have the chance to take a picture of your Nikita' Gift , I just want to see how to prune and shape it.

Tony

Tony,
I will be moving those 1st year Kaki and a few other 1st year plants, but I have close to a 150 other fruiting trees, not to mention other fruiting bushes and vines like blueberries etc... as well as a lot of plants in pots needing put in the ground, and I plan on keeping the other site anyway. It is not my residence, just a small cabin on a few acres.
I have had pretty good luck tarping things to protect them, but it has mostly been with a group of potted plants grouped together on a short term few nights basis with a huge cover your roof type tarp. Just keeping the frost off can help on the short cold spell after I have moved all the potted figs and such out of winter storage. I have used incandescent bulbs as you speak on a smaller scale and I believe they help.

Creekweb,
During the 5am to 8am frost period, do you continue hosing and misting or intermittent misting the tree?

All my asian pers. are now grafted on seeds from tree,s growing wild.My last tree bought from E>L has finaaly (sayo) died.My tree,s bought from west coast nurseries died long time ago.I have not experience any problems with my tree,s now.They are all coming out of dormancy very late. I pick native fruits every fall from tree,s growing in the neighbour hood that are juicy and good tasting.
Along with my other ones i'll have pers. till dec,that hold me over till next year.PAW PAW'S were a blast,you can not eat too many of them,but it hold me over till next year also.

I have to do intermittent spraying going from tree to tree; the other is too big of a set up operation. An important part of the project is figuring out just what's at risk, at what time the risk occurs, and whether it's not worth getting up to protect it either because the threat is too slight or if it's a lost cause. I keep a remote to my orchard thermometer at my bedside and wake up during concerning nights to check - sometime the weatherman lies and I get to sleep, sometimes not.

All.

I glad there are two options to protect newly leafed out persimmon trees from a late frost by either misting them in early am or wrapping them up with additional heat source like a 120v light bulb. I guess this call a labor of love.

Tony

Guys,

I just went out and harvested half of the NC-10 persimmon tree. I will let the fruits sit for 1 week to turn orange but firm not mushy. I will do a drying trial on half of them by carving away their skins and hanging them like the Japanese traditional way to see if they can be drying this way since they are an American persimmon (Virginiana). The other half I will also carving away their skin and cut them in half and place them in the dehydrator. I will take note to see if the heat in a drying process will remove the astringency.

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