Funny thing is, I haven't seen the 'Silver Comet' that widely available. Mine came from the source that Lisa posted the picture from. I've gotten stuff from him a couple of times and he's always had very nice quality plants and well shipped.

Tim, when is the new silver leafed Globba going to be ready for sale at your favorite webstore????

Hopefully my plants of G. substrigosa are still alive at Nong Nooch. I need to go back to that area of Thailand again anyway as I know of new and interesting things there that I want to study. There is a lot of variation in the degree and pattern of silver mottling as well as coloration under the leaf (some green some purple-red).

I'm not sure how big a seller the thing will be though. It is small (usually 4-5 inches high), a weak grower, and somewhat on the fussy side as Globbas go. It is probably semi-evergreen too, making it difficult to keep outside year-round.

It is one of my favorite species however. In terms of taxonomy and evolutionary relationships it is very enigmatic (Tim check where it comes out in my paper on Globba phylogeny). The only two species it MIGHT be related to are the (true) G. andersonii and G. arracanensis. G. andersonii hasn't been collected since 1915 and G. arracanensis is known from a single collection made in 1869.

-Kyle

Hey, semi-evergreen is not a problem where I live. I'll gladly volunteer to give one a good home! In fact evergreen, small, purplish underside, silver mottling-- all good traits for breeding work-- how's the inflo?

I'm going to assume from your comments, Kyle, that if our Angel Wings and Sangria are both part of the same single species swarm, that would apply to the whole JJ morass as well. That's good to know. You don't have a "working title" you could share with us, I suppose... okay, never mind.

In the meantime, can you enlighten me at all about either of these?

{{gwi:842784}}
{{gwi:842786}}

The top one we've had a long time. I had always assumed that that was G. winitii until I saw the cordate-leafed one, so now I don't know what to call it. The second one I had pegged as a G. globulifera hybrid until I found out there was no such thing out there. No bulbils. Got any ideas?

The G. substrigosa seems to take dormancy well, but it does seem to be a slow grower for sure, or surely I'd have been able to weasel one away from my friend by now! Lisa, hawaii is a terrible place for such a beautiful globba. The cool silver leaves might get overrun with hot lava or something else horrible, and we just can't have that can we?

The other silver one should be up soon though, the single striped one.

I'll let Kyle handle the other winitii-like thing, but again there are a bunch of those too!

Tim Chapman

Sorry Tim, no hot lava bubbling down these mountains. Wrong island. I suppose you'd rather risk it getting eaten by a possum or gator, or whatever you've got over there, maybe a feisty persian cat. You know, it's interesting that Kyle left his plants at Nong Nooch-- considering Anders' fondness for lavender/blue stuff, this little hybrid thingie I've got is starting to look more and more like a trading chip... Actually, you've probably got nothing to worry about, I don't get out much. Just keep me in mind when you TC the little sucker.

well, the persian is dead, possums are harmless to plants..just really ugly, no gators near me, armadillos are actually my pest and they do dig up stuff occasionally. I'd have to agree that there isn't much commercial potential with it, so don't expect to see it in tc. I'm doing some small run stuff overseas with a friend for our exclusive hybrids and such, but I've got no desire for any of my stuff to be released to a lab again (unless I had total control, which is impossible as they will promise anything, and steal everything). The small run approach is just to build up stock to propagate from, not to continuously produce plugs or anything. No globba in the pipeline though, just some really cool curcuma and kaempferia, and some non related stuff I can't talk about it :-).

The G. substrigosa inflorescence is similar in appearance to a very compacted white G. globulifera maybe? a small ball of white, not much there, but not as bad as others. I think the technical term is "cute." which is above "uh, interesting" Its still a beautiful plant, as anything with silver markings (or any pattern for that matter) is a step above the rest.

Tim Chapman

When you say little white ball, are the bracts at least somewhat prominent, relative to the size of the whole inflo? If so, that would give it a distinct breeding advantage over some of the bractless or nearly bractless species, such as the 'Silver Comet' pictured earlier. I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me if showy bracts turn out to be a recessive trait. I hope not, as I still want to try and breed in some evergreens, and the one I have to work with (I thought it was G. patens, now I'm not so sure, will post a pic when the flowers open up) hasn't got much going on in the bract department. You and I may get all excited about foliage markings, but in my experience the average customer is much more impressed by a big gaudy flower. I still can't move Kaempferias, although I do like them myself.

I know someone locally who has been doing some small run TC work. I don't know how successful she's been so far, but if I had anything worthy, I'd certainly take it to her rather than to a big lab. I've heard too many lawsuit stories.

RIP Oscar. I didn't know you but you sound like a memorable character. Tim, can you really be sure he didn't spawn a roving gang of ginger/costus-eating felines? We don't have an armadillo problem here, although we did have a pair of wild pigs wander down from the mountains one time (the dogs were absolutely outraged, couldn't stop barking all day long). As to what does the most damage, I think it's kind of a toss-up between giant slugs and overzealous employees with weedwackers.

Oscar was the king and he knew it.. well, he forgot that certain parts of his anatomy had been removed as far as that procreation goes.

The bracts are the inflorescence, it just looks like a cluster of bracts.. yeah yeah, i'm sending a photo soon.

Ask MC about my disbelief about the local pig problem, I seriously thought it was a joke...., I was proved wrong by a heard of em.

Yeah, Kaempferia and evergreen climates just don't mix, commercially at least. The miami growers say the same, once people hear "dormant" they move on. For us in zone 8 it is the norm. There seems to still be resistance to the heavy patterned stuff as many people just associate it with non hardy houseplants, not ground hardy perennials.

As for evergreen large bract types, I don't know what to suggest. I think (Kyle please step in here) G. cornerii is evergreen, at least its Malaysiana and that is the norm for those. It is a pendant with largish white bracts, the inflor. isn't anywhere as long as magnifica, but it could work. don't have it, never seen one in person but it in theory should fit what you need.. unless I'm wrong. I swore I saw a photo online somewhere, but I have an old malaysian magazine with it, and that same photo was used somewhere else...and i have it.. but can't remember at the moment (maybe the japanese world of plant series???)

Tim Chapman

I was told after I let mine go dormant this year, that 'Silver Comet' can be evergreen if you keep it watered. After I was told this, I started lightly watering it again and it popped out of the ground probably in early Feb. So, if nothing else it has a very short dormant period, compared to others.

Lisa, I do agree that most people like showy flowers better than foliage.

I guess I don't really understand the concept of "letting something go dormant" or "keeping it from going dormant". I've seen some discussion of this before on this forum, but my experience has been that if something wants to go dormant, it's gonna do it whether or not it has my permission. It's not really a temperature thing here; it is slightly cooler in the winter, but not that much, and it rains more during the winter months, which can be a problem for some of these Curcumas and whatnot that are used to wet summers and dry winters. We tend to lose a certain percentage of the crop due to rotting, but the winter rains have never kept anything from going dormant. I think it's a day-length trigger, but I'm not about to drag out the night lights to see if I can keep them awake during the winter months. I figure they need their sleep.

It seems there is a category of things that are deciduous in some zones and evergreen in others, in which case you might have some more control over it. I don't know if 'Silver Comet' falls into that category, but if someone wants to try and smuggle me in one, I'll be happy to test it out! Generally, I figure if something goes deciduous in Hawaii, it's deciduous, period. We did build some covered (with sheet plastic) shadehouses to grow the dormant stuff in, but we had problems with the heat build-up, and then Mother Nature intervened and whipped up a little extremely localized mini-hurricane that treated the sheet plastic like a big sail and flattened the whole structure before my husband was able to run inside and cut the plastic away. He did manage to save one of the two structures, but it's nothing but blue sky overhead now, so if the plants can't take the wet winters, that's their tough luck.

For the record, we've lost very few globbas to weather, disease, insects, plague, pestilence, or what-have-you. They seem to be among the most trouble-free plants we have tried to grow, more so than the curcumas, although now that I think about it, the true winitiis did go into a decline when the heat built up in the shadehouse (they seem much happier with the roof off). But the Angel Wings and Sangria are about as tough as they are beautiful. Now if I could just sell them all year round, I'd have a perfect crop!

Overall temperature wise, I don't think we vary too much from you. I'm borderline zone 11 and if it wasn't for one day each winter to maybe get below 40, just long enough to screw the average up - I would be totally zone 11! lol

Winter is our dry season until about May when the daily thunderstorms start.

In the winter, I notice things like the Costus and Taccas just quit growing. They stay nice and green, but there is no new growth. Hibiscus, I notice exactly the "allow it to go dormant" theory. H. syriacus, H. miliatarus, we get a little cold snap they drop leaves - 2 days later they're trying to put out growth. These are both winter dormant hibiscus for northerners. I've also had many an "argument" with northern tropical hibiscus growers who force dormancy. I argue, "they're evergreen" and northerners will swear up and down they can make them go dormant.

Another example is caladiums, they're supposed to go dormant, but my ones that are planted in regularly irrigated areas stay alive year round. The ones in dryer areas disappear.

There is a man here in Florida working on hybridizing almost evergreen Curcumas; trying to significantly shorten the dormant period.

How would you breed an evergreen curcuma? Are there any that don't go dormant? You need to breed that trait in from somewhere, you can't just pull it out of thin air. Do you know what species he's working with? Is this somebody we all know of, like maybe with the initials T.W.? Just curious, as this is something new to me.

Well, wouldn't you know it, I just came across yet another hybrid globba, this is getting ridiculous! It must have been a seedling in one of the pots of the one in the photo that I had originally thought was winitii (I don't even have a common name to call this one, I've just been labelling it Thai lavender globba). I recently divided all the rhizomes, and now that they're getting their first blooms, I notice that in a couple of the pots both the foliage and flower are about midway between that one and G. copicola 'Golden Dragon' (they were growing side-by-side). Not a cross I would have made, and not terribly exciting, but it does answer some questions about bract dominance. G. copicola is not bractless, but they are small and green, and in this presumed hybrid, the bracts are just slightly larger, but kind of maroon colored. Maybe I'll post a picture because this doesn't look like anything with much of a market. I do want to hang onto it, though, just for curiosity's sake.

Tim, how can an inflorescence be just bracts-- where do you put the pollen? Something wrong there...

geez, didn't think you'd take it literally. The inflor. just pops out and all you see is a cluster of whitish bracts. There is no length to it, no "branches" etc. Yes it has flowers and all of the other usual stuff. as for the pollen comment, I'll let that slide as I'm thinking of many bad one liners so I'll just be quiet.

As for evergreen Curcuma, I didn't think Tom Wood was working towards that per se, but on some very quick to bloom hybrids, ie they come up and all are in bloom much sooner than anything else, and don't need as long of a sprouting time. Whether any would be good plants as evergreens is another story. I don't know of any evergreen species. I'm all for giving a deciduous species its dormancy. many can take an evergreen run, but it often hurts them in the end. Silver Comet does not like to be stored dry like many dormant globba can be (and most other dormant gingers) in the ground its fine, but in pots it can shrivel up same with C. roscoeana.

Well I have no hybrid finds to report, but my first globba bloom has appeared, and my first cross of the year (kaempferia) took and the seed pod is plumping up nicely. I still have some more spring bloomers starting late, so have some neat stuff to try hopefully.

Tim Chapman

Well, when you say "the bracts are the inflorescence" I'm not quite sure how I should take it, so can the wisecracks.

Is quick blooming really an issue in curcumas? Pretty much all of the blue-flowered group seem to have a bloom as soon as 4 leaves are out of the ground, can't get much faster than that. I almost wish they would take the time to fill in a litle first.

As to our old friend C. roscoeana, or as we refer to them affectionately: "JoBs" (Jewel of Burma), they like wet winters? I just got through dividing these, and although we did lose a few over the winter, the rhizomes that were there looked better this year than I'd seen them in past years, so I was wondering what the deal was. We had a wetter winter (and year in general) than we've had in a while, so I was actually expecting more rot than we had. The rhizomes were also more multibranched than usual, if you recall my query on another thread about how to propagate these things, normally it seems like you get one offset max, but this time had plenty! My theory is that it's because we've lately been using it as a cut flower, and every time you cut a flower it stimulates it to send up another shoot, which means it's gotta branch down below. We still don't have enough, but I'm going to check them all for viable pollen this year, and see if I can't finally get some seed set. Sooner or later it has to give up and give me what I want...

Tim, do you know these guys? They don't seem to be selling too many of their crosses, but they've got some interesting stuff. Doesn't tell you what the parentage on most of them, but you can pretty much figure it out just by looking at them: C. alismatifolia x sparganifolia, alis. x rhabdota, etc. Kind of saves me the trouble of trying some of these, but I might anyway. I'm not all in love with the blue-flowered guys like I am with old Roscoe, but the alis. and sparg. seem to sell well-- the rhabdotas not so well, although I personally think they're the coolest of the group.

Here is a link that might be useful: Curcuma hybrids

I've been to his farms. The curcuma biz is a sideline though. I don't know if anything other than the Laddawan (mistakenly sold as Ladder wan by some) has been released. Some of the pictured ones are his, others are not in his collection. He was done a lot of sparganifolia crosses.

The curcuma book has some nice hybrid stuff in it, and the red one (surely you know the one I speak of!!) is not available, but I finally got the red parent of that cross. I have cordata of course, but this red species is the key. Nobody had it, and I thought I'd never see it, but low and behold I have one now. This will be a major breeding goal for the summer. Just think a pure red cordata, that is pretty much what that cross looks like. I've got hundreds of slides and digitals of curcuma crosses. its insane, and the majority will probably never be released which is a bummer. There are tons of similar looking things, but some are amazing. The thai take their plant breeding very seriously!

Roscoeana and Silver Comet (well roscoe for sure) like to be well drained, but get some moisture every now and then. Its a tricky thing to reproduce in a pot, but here and there we both have wet winters, so a raised bed does well for the curcuma roscoeana. I finally figured this out, and now I have some in the same place for years. live and learn. its still a pain compared to its relatives.

Tim Chapman

All our Curcumas are in pots. We were growing C. sumatrana in the ground for a while as a cut, but I think it's all died out now, and C. longa never did do well, although we know someone who gets giant 2-3' tall feather-duster flowers out of his. The guy we sold most of our C. zedoaria to, put them in the ground and got a real good crop too, but it's kind of a flash-in-the-pan thing, I would think. You go away for a week, you missed it. I don't like to put any dormant stuff in the ground because you forget, and end up walking on it, and then weed-wacker guy comes through, and there's those nematodes and soil-borne creeping cruds, not to mention the slugs and giant african snails. I know some of the big ones are not super happy in pots, but at least we know where they are. What I want to know is how deep do these things end up burying themselves if there's no pot bottom in the way? Not so much the big ones-- they tend to float kind of near the surface, but every time I unpot alismatifolia or attenuata, or any of the ones with that shape rhizome/tuber, the newest ones are always curled up on the bottom of the pot like a frightened octopus. Seems like they'd be better off just under the surface, but they want to go deep.

I'm glad someone is taking their hybridizing seriously, but it would be nice to see some of these things in the trade. Anything in the red/orange/gold range is definitely a worthy goal. Lavender is a nice color, but been there, seen it. I don't have any reds, and somebody needs to give me an acuminata to work with, too. We ordered too late to get any of those this year. Sulee Rainbow is fabulous, I hope there's one with my name on it soon. In the meantime I keep eyeballing roscoeana and attenuata and wondering if I could get them to hook up.

Okay, I did my first globba pollinations this morning, about 7:30 and pollen was definitely in evidence, so we'll see what happens. Rather than to try to transfer the pollen with some kind of tool, the easiest thing seemed to be to just snap off the daddy's frontal appendage thingie and smush it into the mommy plant's parts (I will pause here for a second in order to allow all the guys in the room to shift uncomfortably in their seats... ) The flower is much too small for my eyes to actually see the stigma, let alone keep it from selfing, but I figure it will all sort itself out when the offspring bloom. I did mark the crosses, but since I pulled one plant of each of the dozen clones I have to work with, and put them all together on the table, who knows what they may get up to behind my back. I fully expect at least some of them to take, I think everybody else just must be doing it wrong!

acuminata?? somehow I think you are thinking of C. aurantiaca, but my psychic powers may be off tonight? As for Sulee Rainbow, you don't want to hear the latest horror story on those. I wasn't going to get many at all this year, so am stuck with my own plants which isn't much. The few, and i mean very few, made it to the US, and are now back in thailand. You wouldn't believe why... its so insane, if you had any confidence in government agencies, I can make you loose it quick. its just unreal. The rarer parent of the sulee cross is worth getting (if you saw the wild specimens of these the first time we saw them, you'd faint at the diversity in such a small area, like a big hybrid swarm or something. If my plants do well this year I'll try to prop. one for you. In my opinion its one of the best species around, and of course nobody is really sure what it is... but its a curcuma, so that makes since.

I'll guess I'll get a phyto and hook you up sometime, after I send the seeds I owe (soon, very soon, like tomorrow).

As for everybody doing Globba wrong, its only a few people, but its like the 4 minute mile. now that its a known possibility, we'll all be pumping them out like crazy. For awhile though, Kaempferia are all I'll be able to work with. Its ironic though. The day the first summer bloomer started, ALL of my K. rotunda stopped blooming!! ALL!! BUT, having been here before, I stalled several of them by 2 months, and will plant them soon, so they'll be blooming when several summer bloomers are... pretty clever I'd say :-)

Well, I did notice the REAL Globba winitii look alike is up and running, and as I recall its pretty early blooming. Its strange though, the leaves were narrow for the first two years, now they are much larger and look almost the same as a regular G. winitii. who knows.

Tim C.

Yeah, you're right, aurantiaca. I knew it wasn't attenuata, but the brain shuffled the cards and came up with the wrong A name. It happens. A lot.

So then I guess I'd better get some more globbas in the pipeline before the big guns muscle their way into it, okay, I'm on it! I find it hard to believe the Thais haven't been successful, or haven't they tried, and if not, why not? Nothing gets me going like being told it's a wide open field. It's hard to get too excited about replicating someone else's C. alismatifolia crosses, even if their hybrids are not available. Tell me it's never been done and I'm there!

Meanwhile, I guess I'll share with you this latest thing I found. As I say, not something anyone's likely to put on their wish list, but educational. Okay, first we have:
{{gwi:842788}}
Aforementioned unknown sp. G. noname (help me out here!)

and then there's:
{{gwi:842790}}
G. copicola 'Golden Dragon'

and what appears to be the fruit of their unholy union:
{{gwi:842792}}

So now I'm somewhat less optimistic about breeding in the evergreens unless I can find something with a halfway decent bract to work with. Or unless I can do multigenerations without losing that trait. Better see if these first ones take before counting on that.

(whoops, forgot to shrink these shots down like the others. Oh well, you get a larger-than-life view.)

I think the hybrid looks fine, maybe something you wouldn't release given the others, but the cross has potential. I imagine if you used the yellow bract form of C. copicola you'd have a nicer color in the offspring. getting an orange pendant would be a major accomplishement.

Tim C.

There's a yellow bract form? Now that's something I could work with. I need a bigger gene pool, that's all there is to it. The bracts on all the ones I have seem to fall into 3 categories: small and green, orchidy magenta, and white. The Angel Wings has that nice 2-tone thing going on, but I could use some other colors. You've got something called Pink Lace or something, Tim, is that just another color form or winitii, or is it a different species? We had ordered some supposedly "pink" winitiis this year, but I think JP must have screwed up because none of the ones that have bloomed so far look any pinker than the regular ones. I'm not going to complain though, because a percentage of them are coming out this cool dark inky purple color, which is something I hadn't seen before, and I think those ones have some definite breeding potential. It's kind of like a darker shade of what I got in the Blue Hawaii cross, which leads me to think that if I redid that cross with this new form I might get something even bluer. Gonna try it. Narrower leaf on those ones, but still winitii-looking.

Aren't there some with different colored flowers too? The name atrosanguinea comes to mind as being red-flowered, but maybe that's just another misshuffled A name. If you could breed in something with red flowers, the bract size would be less important, some interesting possibilities there. I just don't know where to get this stuff if it's not in the trade, but if somebody just happened to have an extra one lying around.... Yeah, I'm gonna hit you up for everything you have, Tim. May have to dig into the retirement fund, but we can work something out.

Elegant Lace is supposedly in the same group as the JJ and angel wings etc, but not sure. Its definitely in the to be named in the future group, not a true G. winitii. There is a darker true G. winitii, but its not in the trade but hopefully someone will propagate it. I have this other thing that i'm not sure on the identity of, with the same cordate leaf base. we'll see.

there are some white flower species and some with white and hints of blue etc. Bract color varies a lot too, the potential for tons of stuff is there, just depends on whether they will cross or not. I am going to try to self all the globba this year just to see what will work, and of course try a few hybrids. Pollinated one of the rarer ones this morning (its the only thing in bloom). No commercial potential whatsoever, but the flower shape is unique and I like it.

Tim C.

This is what we had ordered, but now that I look at it, it doesn't even look like a winitii. Wrong foliage, and the form and that larger lobe/petal on the flower is more like the noname sp. that we have. Probably a color form of that, whatever it is. We've got a green-bracted thing too, that has that same kind of flower. I thought it was just a different form of Golden Dragon, but the individual flowers have that big lobe.

Is Elegant Lace a patented clone? I'm trying to stay away from the patented ones since your buddy probably controls the rights to the pollen too.

The dark purples that did come are seriously cool. He's got a picture of something called Violet, but the pic doesn't look as violetty as the real plant. You don't think this could be the darker winitii you mentioned? It's got a cordate leaf, just narrower.

Here is a link that might be useful: Pink globba

This page has a pic of G. atrosanguinea. Looks small, and not much bract action, but the color has possibilities. Anyone have it? I don't know that a white flower would add much to the mix, but maybe...

Here is a link that might be useful: Globbas

I would hope that the darker G. winitii's location is not well known, as it would probably be wiped out or severely depleted like many other populations of the more ornamental globba. Some of the better growers are now TCing stuff, but not all.

I would assume the picture is the normal G. winitii, and what you'd get is something else, similar, but something else. I seriously doubt anybody commercial has two forms of the true G. winitii.

Tim C.

Jeez! Go away for a week and I get drowned in posts! I can't keep track of every part of this discussion, so I'll do my best but if there was anything I missed bring it up again and I'll be happy to comment.

Aside from the true G. winitii and G. magnifica, the winitii group has three main entities that present me with great difficulty. Marks named varities are all one species as best I can remember. They have normal leaves and normal inflorescences (basically they can be identified by not being anything else in the group). I think I know where I might be able to find wild populations of this and will go there at some point (remember, my current job is to study the general flora of Thailand, not just Globba so my time for Globba is limited for a couple more years).

The Globba noname is something I've seen in the markets in the last few years in Thailand. They have narrower leaves than the rest of the group (I think they are noticably pubescent if I remember correctly). I have no idea where it comes from (although it is almost definitely from somewhere in Thailand or Laos).

The pink Globba in your link is the third mystery species. It stands out because it has very long branches in the inflorescence. Again I have no idea where it comes from. Actually the narrow leaf species also seems to have long branches, but the magenta is much more vibrant in that species.

Until I can see all of these in the wild I won't feel comfortable with them (it is too easy to pull an oddball out of a population and mass produce it). But because of the horticultural interest I may need to bite the bullet and write them up. Hopefully I will go to Thailand again in September and can try to work with them then. I think I lost my plants of them here in the US. If anyone wants to send me them I'd be more than happy to work on them here too.

The supposed G. globulifera hybrid looks like G. rosea. It is actually in the G. siamensis group, not the G. winitii group. G. siamensis is sometimes sold as G. bamboo leaf. Supranee had some a few years ago and we got three color forms at Nong Nooch. Unfortunately I think only one survived. I'd love to know where it came from. It was described from Laos or Vietnam, but it may be in Thailand too.

G. atrosanguinea is one of the very few Globbas with truly red bracts. If you are going to do hybridization you should try to learn the sections and subgenera of Globba (read my paper, I can send it to whomever needs it). Maybe I'll write it up here in a few days, but knowing a combination of anther appendage number and shape, whether the inflorescence is upright or nodding, and the size and persistance of the bracts will tell you a lot about Globba relationships. Actually, if a species is evergreen or not is important too. In short everything I believe you have tried to hybridize is all in section Globba (4 appendages, persistant bracts, nodding infl., deciduous; yes, the section has the same name as the genus). G. atrosanguinea is in section Sempervirens. This section is closely related to section Globba but is evergreen. Crosses between the sections might work, let me know if they do. G. substrigosa is in section Substrigosa and is only close to two incredibly obscure species. It probably won't cross because the chromosme number is different.

You may get enough red bleeding into G. atrosanguinea flowers to select for the trait over many generations. But no Globba has truly red flowers. I have seen a picture of G. brachyanthera with deep pink flowers and I have a G. orixensis with reddish yellow flowers. But both of them are in different sections with (I think)different chromosome numbers from the species you want to hybridize.
There is the red spot on the lip of many Globba species. If that is a trait that could be variable you might be able to select more and more red in each generation. But I've not seen much variation in that trait in the wild.

I'll email you Tim and Lisa with some pictures of a few things. I don't want to post them here because I don't want them to become publicly available. I've already had my words end up in a book without credit, I don't need my pictures doing the same.

-Kyle

Boy, why can't the problematic species be oscure noncommercial stuff that nobody has? Well, I guess I still don't know what I have, but at least I know why I don't know.

Tim, looks like you nailed the ID on G. rosea. I had doubts because the only online reference to rosea that I could find mentioned bulbils, of which I've never seen any, but I guess you may actually know a thing or two. I really like that one, and have been trying to work it into some crosses, but if it's not in the same group as the rest, I'm now wondering if it will work. See what's happening? I was muddling along just fine in blissful ignorance, and it seemed to be working for me, so tell me again why I want to trade this in for educated defeatism? Still, I appreciate you guys trying to point me in the right direction.

I don't know if you know this, Kyle, but your paper is available online for anyone who knows where to look for it. I think I need an interpreter for parts of it (multiple tree islands, negative log likelihood-- are you sure we're not in the pacific norhtwest?) I more or less get the gist of the phyllogeny charts, but I'm not seeing where it tells the chromosome counts.

What I want you to tell me, just to make sure I'm doing this right, is where exactly is the stigma on these puppies? I've been operating under the assumption that it must be adjacent to the pollen sacs, as that seems to be the usual arrangement, but I'm just not seeing anything-- I even put my glasses on and everything! And what's with that little filament attached to the appendage (you can see it very clearly on my last hybrid pic above), does that have a function? This is a weirdly complicated little flower, that's for sure.

Okay, next order of business: this batch of definitely-not-the-pink-thing-in-the-picture globbas that we recently got in is now showing all the earmarks of being a wild-collected population. Some nice dark ones, but a whole gradation of color there. I still think these are just variants of G. winitii, even though there seems to be a more prominent secondary bract on the branches than what our original winitii clone has. Tim is betting it could be a separate species. Big stakes riding on this (I don't drink soda, Tim-- how 'bout a smoothie, or is that too rich for your blood?) So Kyle, we need you to call it, are you a lumper or a splitter? Here are a couple of the darker color forms:
{{gwi:842794}}
{{gwi:842797}}
Whatever they are, I can't wait to play with them!

while I make a pretty mean homemade smoothie, a gift card to smoothie king will do instead.

on a side note, my first cross of the year, K. 'Grande' X K. rotunda (a decent form) gave me a whopping two seeds today. thats it for the year for that one too, just one pod and two seeds.

Tim C.

Well, it's quality, not quantity, Tim. If the DNA lines up just right, all you need is one seed.

I see seed setting on G. rosea now. Not sure if it's from my efforts, I didn't figure it would be that fast, and the ones I crossed the other direction aren't showing me anything yet. Still, wouldn't mind some self seed of that one, as I don't have very many.

What does G. laeta look like? I see a couple of forms on Mark's list, white and pink-bracted. Do I want that? I suspect I do.

Just pour the smoothie in a ziploc bag and slap some postage on it, I'm sure it'll be fine.

yes yes, but more often than not quantity helps ensure quality. It does look like I'll get to do the cross of spring bloomers that i really wanted to do after all (red knight x rotuda).

I don't think you'll be able to get the laeta, but if you can get them. They might not be G. laeta either, but if not than what i think they are is a real nice one too. The G. laeta i have isn't the greatest as far as color and rate of growth go. HOWEVER, its got one of the nicest inflorescences out there and great foliage forms etc. I don't think it would be too commercial, but for breeding it would be excellent. I really like it, actually its one of my favorites so of course its slow, but now with my new found hope for seed setting i'll try to get some seeds this go round. Suppose i gotta send a photo of that too?? I could be wrong, but I think the one Mark has is this other thing, its cool but i have no idea how to describe it. Its inflor. is not nearly as long, but its really cool too. I've only seen the pure white form of it though. (Kyle, i'll send you a photo of the one I'm talking about for ID).

as for smoothies, I'll have to pass on the mailable stuff. having opened a shaker after forgetting it in the car for a couple of days.. well, i'll just pass on the smoothie. When a yellow lab runs out of the room, you know its bad.

Tim C.

He's calling them 'Salaween' and 'Salaween Pink'-- "very special white bracts rare" and "previously unknown the pink form is very rare". Does that help any? You have to read between the lines sometimes. "Special" is usually good, although if you take it in the current PC sense, it could mean disabled or retarded. "Rare" is neutral as far as aesthetics go, but it generally translates to expensive. When it says "collectable", that usually means it's not good for anything else. As the person in charge of writing our plant sale signs, I know the rules: "beautiful landscape plant" means lousy cut flower, and "old-time favorite" means lots of newer, better stuff out there.

What color is your laeta? Is it really long? Long is good. Yes, of course you have to send a picture. You need to invest in a digital camera, it makes everything soooo much easier.

He's also got G. nudae, G. clarkii, and some unknown species called 'Khmer White' (with white flowers, blue anther crest), 'Viet Nam Giant' (with peanut-sized bulbils) and 'Orange Spider'. Any of that mean anything? I put them all on my (4 page long)list, just in case, but we'll see what he says. I know what G. nudae looks like-- big flowers, but over all, more in the "uh, interesting" category. And then that thing Kyle said about male and female flowers... hmmm, don't know, the flowers are already complicated enough without having to worry about what sex they are.

G. clarkii means G. racemosa, slap him when he says clarkii. its a tall species, might not be what you are after though (course, i'd love to see a 5 foot tall winitii hybrid.. so get to work, did see a slide of a g. magnifica that big once!), the rest are in the uh interesting group.. except khmer white as i don't know what that on is. don't expect it all to be available. I have the lists you are referring too.

as for digital cameras, I have a canon eos rebel digital. so there (even have a macro lens, but the ringflash won't work on the digital though it does fine on the 35mm camera which is also a canon eos rebel). i have an ungodly amount of slides from the predigital era. I still try to take slides too, but it doesn't happen like it should. tons of digitals too, just not as organized as they should be! I'll email the laeta photo, its hard to describe too, its inflorescence has a lot going on.

i don't have any retarded plants, only retarded bosses..but they're special too. i prefer the plants though. the best i've seen for an otherwise useless gingers is "good for soil erosion control." (ie, its so weedy and useless, this is the best we can come up with).

Tim C.

Okay, I found a picture of G. racemosa. I wouldn't classify that as an "uh, interesting", more like an "oh", which is one step down the ladder. Are there any big ones that have a pendant inflo and nice bracts? The 5' magnifica-- was it on steroids or growing near a nuclear power plant? Be nice to have a good long-stemmed cut flower type, although I figure the big bucks (yeah, right) are in the smaller pot specimens. People love that little G. noname (that's going to be its official name now until Kyle comes up with a better one). I've always thought that G. winitii was a more elegant-looking thing, not so stiff, but if the two of them are side-by-side at the same price, they'll snap up the noname.

I don't expect everything on the list to be available, particularly if it's stuff that has nothing to do with the current situation, but if I don't ask now I may not have another window of opportunity. It's more of just an inquiry at this point, but I think I'll scratch that "clarkii" off my list. I'm not too sure I'd really want anything with peanut-sized bulbils, either. The bulbil-forming ones are kind of a pest, and if it's big and homely to boot... probably not even good for erosion control.

Speaking of bulbil bearers, I have been avoiding using G. globulifera as a potential seed parent, as I figure it would be less motivated to make seeds than the others, is that a correct assumption? It seems to have about the most pollen of any of them though, kind of surprising.

Well, if you have a digital camera you have no excuse for not running out and sending me a picture every time I ask what something looks like. You're gonna be sorry you told me that, here I was cutting you some slack.

Tim is correct that G. clarkei is really G. racemosa. It is the tallest Globba species. I've seen it 6.5 feet tall and have reliable reports of it having reached 10 feet! It is easy to ID because it is the only species to have bulbils on top of the inflorescence (instead of at the base).

G. nudae is actually G. expansa. If you think the winitii group is complicated then be glad that G. expansa and its relatives (sect. Nudae) aren't horticulturally interesting, they are a nightmare taxonomically.

The pictures you posted are of G. winitii. I know Supranee found the population near the southwestern-most population. But she and others may have rediscovered the original locality in northern Thailand. The third locality, where the bracts are extremely dark purple, should be pretty safe as it is completely inaccessible by road.

As I mentioned before, if anyone has extra of the various winitii look alikes they can send me it will increase the chances that I will do something about them sooner rather than later. Otherwise it will have to wait until I can find time while I'm in Thailand as I don't have them with me here.

The stigma on Globbas is at the very tip of the anther. Just carefully tug on the style (the thin white thread that runs the length of the stamen) and follow it to the upper tip. The stigma is small but slightly expanded from the style and pokes out from between the anther sacs. I'll see if I have a good picture I can send.

I'll try to put together a few Globba pics today or tomorrow and send them to you Lisa and Tim.

Glad to hear my paper is generally available. I didn't realize it was because American Journal of Botany supposedly charges for access. I don't get any money from it so I'm happy anyone can download it. Chromosome counts aren't listed for each species in that paper, but I'll see if I can dig out a couple papers that list numbers. But check page 110 for a summary. A couple species, mainly G. marantina and G. schomburgkii, have chromosome numbers that are all over the map, but they aren't interesting for breeding anyway. Virtually every other species should have one of the numbers I list. See the phylogeny on page 111 for chromosome number distribution too. I think chromosome number will mainly keep you from crossing things in subgenus Mantisia with anything outside of it. Otherwise numbers are reasonably stable. I rely on the phylogeny on page 109 (or the simplified one on 111) for the most accurate set of relationships. But the one on 106 has the most species. Don't worry about most of the really technical talk, it is mostly to demonstrate to other scientists that I did the analysis rigorously and in keeping with accepted standards. Also, Table 3 can be used to put virtually every species of Globba into its proper section (even if you don't have the chromosome count!).

And to leave you on another bit of name confusion. Globba globulifera may or may not be the correct name for what we call G. globulifera. I'm not totally convinced that what Gagnepain had in mind 100 years ago is what we assumed he meant today. G. globulifera is described from an island off the south coast of Vietnam. But I'm pretty sure our plants come from northeastern Thailand. I have this sneaky suspicion that he really had mistakenly found a collection of G. marantina and thought it was something new. But keep calling this species G. globulifera for now as it might be correct. If it isn't correct then it is a new species. Again, this is something that will have to wait a few years until I can get back to working on Globba full time again.

-Kyle

Okay, somebody owes me a smoothie, but I'll settle for some seeds of G. laeta, now that you know how to make them.

If that little filament is the style, then that's where the pollen tube runs? Sounds like you don't want to break that, but why would a plant put something that important in such a fragile and vulnerable package? Maybe that's part of the pollination problem. I think I'll need the extra-strength glasses to see the stigma, maybe the best way is to take a digital close-up and put it up on the screen.

Oops, the clock on the wall says pollen is calling-- back later!

That thin little style is protected by being in the groove of the big fat filament. Hardly any other family of plants besides gingers do this. The flower lasts only a day, two at the most, so the style doesn't need to be that tough. I'll bet you've seen very few broken styles (unless you broke it yourself). What's even more interesting is that it appears that when a bee pollinates the flower it causes the anther to bend upwards (notice the anther is hinged, that is uncommon even among gingers). When the anther bends upwards it puts pressure on the stigma forcing it to squeeze out a bit of liquid. As soon as the tension is released (i.e. the anther falls back into normal position) the drop of liquid recedes back into the stigma. I think that that drop collects pollen and then sucks it down onto the stigma itself. The stigma is actually concave (get out your microscopes!) and I think the receptive area may be on the inside, but I haven't proven that. It is definitely complicated, but then who would mistake Globbas as "normal" flowers!

Globba laeta is gorgeous by the way. But...the bracts go bad very quickly (within a few days) and for most of the time it is in flower it looks kind of crappy. This will be a drawback in horticulture. But when it first opens it is hard to beat! I'd love for someone to TC it or produce lots of seeds. It rarely if ever makes bulbils. The species is very rare and I am worried it could be nearly wiped out once the collectors in Thailand find it. Actually I need to talk with Mark and see if he would consider changing the name of his variety. He is pretty much advertising where it comes from. Anyway, it grows well for me so I may be able to send you a division. My guess is he got it 7 years ago when he and John Kress found it for the first time. Most plants are creamy white, but one has a pinkish cast, especially as it ages. I'll bet that is his named variety.

-Kyle

I noticed the hinged-ness of the anthers as I was working on them. At first I thought "oh crap, I broke it" but they do seem pretty tough. And I also think I saw that little glistening bead a couple of times, and now that you mention it, I think it was when the anther was flexed. So probably the best way is to apply the pollen when it's flexed back, which seems to naturally happen anyway if you're playing with it. I've been trying it at different times too, and I think I've figured out when the pollen is the most plentiful, not the crack of dawn but a little later. Okay Tim, you've got all the coaching you need, break out the champagne and the Barry White and go after G. laeta! Senescent bracts is a serious drawback though. You didn't tell me that part.

well, I found them to be long lasting enough, no G. winitii or the like lasting weeks on end, but hey it puts on a good show. I wouldn't dare cut a stem at this point to see how long it last cut. I tried pollinating last summer, but not seriously enough of course. I'll make this one a priority. (lisa, as for the questionable id i mentioned earlier, if memory serves it was because of the location, as it didn't match up, long story though)

Tim C.

Yeah, don't go cutting the flowers off, you need every one you can get at this point. Even some of the ones that have long-lasting bracts on the plant don't necessarily last long once you cut them. That little noname is a prime example. Winitii is phenomenal in that respect, though, so maybe you could breed that in from there. How tall is laeta?

Well that Golden Dragon x noname hybrid is growing on me, maybe I will propagate it after all. The bracts have darkened to a nice burgundy with no green streaks, and the form is pretty much like G. colpicola, which is a bit of a hard sell with green bracts. Doesn't quite have the Wow factor of the Blue Hawaii, but it's cute. I'm still waiting for a flower on the presumed Angel Wings x winitii seedling, but if that turns out to be anything worthwhile, I'll have 3 in the pipeline, so the rest of you better get on it!

Globba colpicola is so much nicer than G. schomburgkii. I don't know why schomburgkii seems to sell well but colpicola doesn't. Maybe its just been in the trade longer. One advantage to sellers about G. colpicola is that it rarely, if ever, makes bulbils. So it is difficult for buyers to mass propagate them.

Anyway, after I write this I'll go dig out those pictures I promised!

-Kyle

I think G. colpicola is much nicer too, and it has the advantage of being in full bloom when the most other species are just starting to come up, but it's not a great seller. My husband tossed out all our G. schomburgkii years ago, calling it a #@%&ing weed, and I tend to agree. He did the same with the purple globulifera, although there's still some popping up under the benches which I think I'll salvage. People like those if you sell them small and cheap, which it is practical to do with that one, as it has tons of bulbils and blooms even in a 2" pot. For some reason he still kind of likes the white bracted form, so that's the one I've been pollinating with. This is one we got from Mark, and it has just as many bulbils as the purple one. The bracts are actually kind of pale greenish, so I don't think it's G. candida, although the inflo looks pretty similar otherwise. Thanks for the pictures by the way, Kyle. Lots of interesting stuff there, and it helps to have a frame of reference.

About bulbil making, I seem to recall in your paper some statement that most species will produce them, but did you mean that they merely have the capacity to form one or two from the stem if stressed, because I don't see bulbils on any of the others that I have, although occasionally a cut stem of G.winitii in a vase will throw out a couple, usually from further down the stem rather than at the inflorescence. I've never seen any on G. rosea, which is why I was confused by a study I found online (about treating them with colchicine) that mentioned the bulbils.

I haven't heard of that study on G. rosea. I'll look for it. I don't trust the names I read for a second though. They are wrong far more often than they are right. I believe every species of Globba can form bulbils. It is too broadly distributed in the genus for this not to be the case. But quite a few do it very, very rarely. I've never seen a bulbil in many species. But I would have said that about G. winitii until a year or two ago when I saw a plant make one.

I've seen (and have at Nong Nooch) nicer forms of G. colpicola than Golden Dragon. The population it comes from all have branches that keep extending out as the infl. ages, such that a fully mature infl. will have side branches 2-3x the length of the main axis. I think that one would be more popular.

G. candida is much nicer than globulifera. Those bigger, whiter bracts are nice and it doesn't really make bulbils. Anything with too many bulbils looks weedy to me. And actually it turns out to be pretty true in the wild too. G. schomburgkii is probably the most common species from NE India through to Indochina. You are more likely to find it in cut over areas than you are nice forest too.

Glad you enjoyed the pics. Let me know if you have any questions about them.

-Kyle

Okay, this is just a tiny detail of one of my pictures, so the resolution isn't too good, but hopefully good enough to serve as a point of reference.
{{gwi:842800}}

The stigma is the greyish spot at the lower tip of the anther, correct? When you figure that everything in this picture could fit on my pinkie fingernail, you can see what I'm up against, but I was actually able to see this today as I was out at a more decent hour when the pollen was plentiful and the stigma actually seemed to protrude a bit. Now if anybody doesn't know what to do after reading all this, they're never gonna know. Just doing my part to aid and abet globbative comingling.

So Kyle, I'm guessing you can tell me what species we're looking at just from this. Tim will make you a smoothie if you get it right!

Yes, the thing sticking out at the tip of the anther is the stigma. The style is that little threat between the filament and the anther. I can tell you about 50 species it cannot be but not what it actually is. With a few notable exceptions, the entire flower of most species in section Globba and Sempervirens look alike. I often see as much or more variation in flowers within a single species (in those groups) than I do between species. That dark winitii is a good example. It has greenish spot on the labellum (instead of red) and a noticable gap between the lateral staminodes and labellum. Basically the inflorescence as a whole is key to identifying species in these groups.

On the other hand I can pretty much identify any species in subgenus Mantisia or Ceratanthera from the anther alone. It seems that in some groups the species decided to differentiate themselves mainly in the flowers while in others it is in the inflorescence!

By the way, I found that reference to G. rosea on the web. I don't trust that ID for a second. Very, very few people know how to ID Globba's properly, especially when it comes to obscure species. They probably looked at Gagnepain's c. 1910 treatment of the Indochinese species (in French) and thought what they had kind of resembled that species. But it is much more likely they had G. globulifera (if that's your real name!) or even G. schomburgkii. They also misspelled the Ipomea species that they were looking at. It is I. quamoclit not I. quamolic.

-Kyle

This morning as I was doing my pollen rounds, I noticed that Costus erythrophyllus also has that sepearate little thread-like style, although in this case it's in a much more protected location down inside the flower, and not waving out in the breeze where any passing bee can trip over it. I didn't do an extensive survey to see if any other Costus had this, but I'd never seen that before. I'm wondering what the advantage would be to the plant to have that kind of arrangement. These things don't usually evolve for no good reason, but it seems odd to me.

It helps keep any passing bee from pollinating it. The more complicated the flower the more it can restrict just who pollinates it. By limiting the pollinators it reduces the chances of the wrong pollen clogging up the stigma. The bees that pollinate it are somewhat large and force their way down into the flower for nectar. When they do that the pollen gets dumped on their backs. Then when it does the same thing at the next flower it deposits that pollen on the stigma. I've long felt plants are "smarter" than animals. Just look at the hoops they make them jump through to get what they want. And the pollinators don't even know they are doing work for the plant (they think they are just getting some free nectar)!

-Kyle

How does having the style free (freestyle?) help weed out the undesireables? Is it like a trip cord to the hinged anther, causing it to slap only the XL sized bees on the back? Yeah, floral mechanisms are pretty intricate sometimes. The orchids seem to have this down to a fine art, what with mimicry and all, and ginger flowers are about the closest-looking things to orchids that I've observed, just the way the parts are arranged.

Next question: what's up with G. patens? At least I think that's what I have, I don't have a picture of mine, but it looks EXACTLY like the one in the link, down to the brown leaf tips. Does it have male and female flowers? The inflo comes out and has all these tight little buds which seem to senesce before turning into the type of flower I'm used to seeing. Occasionally I'll get one, like today (the last one was over a week ago), but they seem really weak and fragile. I tried to put pollen on it and the style broke immediately-- never had that happen on any of the others. It doesn't exactly have a lot of great breeding characteristics, but it's the only evergreen I've got, so I wanted to see what would happen.

Here is a link that might be useful: G. patens

on a side note. I remembered, finally, that the more recent place i saw a photo of G. corneri (the pendant white evergreen) is in the Gingers of Malaysia book. hadn't gone through it in a while. long term memory is fading i guess. The same photo appeared in a malaysian nature magazine years ago, along with some others.

Tim C.

Okay, dug out book, found picture of G. corneri. Yes, put me down for one of those. Definitely the nicest looking evergreen I've seen.

It's funny how when you have the internet, you tend to forget about all the information in books. This book also has some handy little line drawings of where all the floral parts are in the various tribes, including Globbae. Costaceae apparently not included, but the arrangement is pretty similar.

Lisa,

I'm not sure what you mean about having a free style. Virtually every group of plants have styles distinct from the stamens. Orchids don't, but then they have a special term for the structures involved. In fact, gingers come about as close to a combined stamen/style as it gets without them actually being fused.

Is what you are talking about that the style often forms a bowstring of sorts? It isn't supposed to do that. In cultivation it happens all the time but in the wild it is much more rare. More often the style is completely included in the groove of the filament.

Yes, those pictures are of G. patens. I used to have a bunch of evergreens but the people in the greenhouse where I kept them didn't understand that and let them dry out with all the other Globbas one winter. Unfortunately it was too late before I figured out what was happening.

I think all the flowers are hermaphrodites. My guess is that only the species in section Nudae have unisexual flowers. I'm surprised you don't have G. atrosanguinea. It is fairly commonly grown and has the reddest bracts of any Globba. Much more potential there. G. corneri is nice, I've only seen pictures though. Would love to get my hands on it someday. G. albobracteata is another white bracted evergreen species. But it has a much longer (almost stretched out looking) inflorescence. G. unifolia has red-orange bracts I believe (in the most common form, I have a all green form). G. curtissii doesn't have nice bracts to speak of but has a large many flowered inflorescence. It might be worth working with to try and cross with some of the compact evergreens with more color. Over time you might get lucky and get a large infl. with colorful bracts in an evergreen species.

I just remembered G. fragilis. As the name suggests it is pretty small and delicate. But it is probably my favorite of the evergreen species. I only have one picture of it and it isn't that good. But the leaves have two white streaks on the leaves (one on either side of the midrib) and the lower surface is dark red-purple. The bracts are a distinctive firery yellow-orange color. I may send you the picture I have as you can see all these traits, even if you have to squint to make some of them out!

100 messages on this thread. Pretty good...even if two entirely different subjects have been discussed!

-Kyle