OK, this one is for the girls. More specifically, the girls that collect and use their own urine to water the compost pile. Are there any of you? Am I nuts for considering it?

I mean, sure, it's easy enough for the boys. They can go right over and "water" the compost pile in one step. No private collection necessary. But I'm a single woman wanting to 1) enjoy the benefits of urine in my pile and 2) stop wasting water to flush compostable urine and TP down the drain.

I'm not going to spend money on a special female urinal, and let's just say that my "aim" when given a cup in the doctor's office leaves something to be desired, so how can I start "collections" most easily? Anyone willing to share any suggestions or recommendations?

Christy hit upon something there - perhaps a call to a medical supply store can lead you in the right direction.

I don't do this because I don't go out to my pile every day, but considering the benefits - conservation of water and good stuff for the pile - I should stop being so lazy and consider it. Good luck!

:)
Dee

I think I will leave the urine collecting to others even if it is beneficial to the compost pile.

Sarah

I'll admit that I had a hope that someone would tell me about some brilliant adapter (diverter) they had for their regular toilet, but I've gotten over it. ;-)

Sarah

Probably you aren't old enough to remember the scent of a diaper pail from the days before paper diapers. People kept urine saturated cloth diapers in a covered pail. Diapers were washed as a full load, one didn't mix other laundry in with a load of diapers. Urine stinks. I detest the smell of urine.

We have laws about human waste/sanitation for good reason. Handling urine is not sanitary. Diseases can be passed through contact with urine, such as Hepatitis. Some infected person fails to wash their hands after using the toilet, then two minutes later shakes your hand, you suddenly need to sneeze so you cover your mouth and nose with your hand, inhaling as you do--disease bacteria has been transmitted to you. By the way, new fangled thinking is that people should sneeze into the crook of their elbows to cut down on the amount of germs spread by hands.
Being green doesn't mean giving up safe sanitary practices.

Lorna

Sarah

I don't consider putting urine in the compost pile as an usafe sanitary practice. As long as you've got a hot enough pile, I don't see the problem with it. And if that pile is indeed hot enough, there would be no smell.

Even if you don't put your urine in the compost pile, you could still shake hands with an infected person who does not wash their hands. It has really nothing to do with one person putting her own urine in her own pile.

Witeowl, you got some good answers on the compost forum (and one not-so-helpful answer, lol - not sure what that was supposed to mean?!). Good luck with your compost.

:)
Dee

@Lorna: You're free to your own opinion, but do you find your comment about the legal handling of human waste/sanitation at all incongruous with your recommendation in the other thread to use gray water in the garden (which is bizarrely illegal in most areas)? I wash my hands; I make sure there's no excess runoff from the compost pile. I believe that dog poo in the park has a greater risk of spreading pathogens and disease than a little (typically sterile) urine in my compost pile. Also, many of our modern "sanitary" practices are simply overkill. (The elimination of cloth handkerchiefs would be a good example.) Oh, and it's not *my* "zany" idea... people far smarter than I began the practice; I simply seek to modernize it and make it most convenient. ;-)

@theanalyst: I suppose that, if I did not know better, I would worry that keeping a pile of rotting fruits and vegetables in my yard would create an odor and environment reminiscent of a dumpster. Instead, thanks to a little care and attention to detail and the art of composting, all I smell around my compost pile is a wonderful aroma reminiscent of a rich, woodland floor. It's just lovely. :-)

Sarah

No, I don't find my comments about grey water incongruous. Note I specified using grey water for flower gardens, not produce gardens. You are correct, to each his own. I am familiar with the concept of using urine in compost, and do not agree with the practice. The urine advocate composters claim their urine is sterile. Really? Are they doing sterile catches in sterile containers? People make all sorts of claims.

You haven't met any of these people you say are smarter than you. You don't know that they are the perfect specimens of health. You don't know what their gardens look like, or how clean they are regarding their persons or their homes. If urine is sterile, why do babies get diaper rash?

My comments about people transmitting disease because they don't wash hands was to point out why urine is not sanitary. I'm sure you have had the thrill of filling and transporting a urine specimen cup down a corridor at a medical facility. If you were able to avoid peeing on the container or sloshing any of the urine before you got the cup capped, you are much more graceful than I. I have washed off the exterior of the container every time because somebody else was going to be putting their hands on that container.

When I was a kid, the woman who lived across the street kept a coffee can beneath her bed because she didn't want to leave her bed to use the bathroom during the night. The scent of urine was strong in her bedroom, wafted out to the hallway and a portion of her living room.

Years ago, during the Hippie Days, I worked at the Berkeley Free Clinic. Various groups of people came by teaching "new age" alternative health options. All were allowed to offer workshops. I attended a workshop on urine therapy, people advocating drinking one's own urine and washing oneself with urine. These folks were not the perfect specimens of health! The leader of the group was emmaciated, had a ghostly pallor to her complexion, lank lack-luster hair, a sour odor, and her clothing was in need of soap and water. She was also obviously suffering from depression. Yet she presented herself as an alternative health practitioner, and there were people who believed what she had to say.

I am not into germfree environments, except at medical facilities. I do not equate sanitary practices with being germfree. I believe in plain soap and water. I think antibacterial soap is bad for the environment. I would not compost if I was afraid of bacteria. I believe nature intended a balance of "good" and "bad" bacteria. Bacteria has its own ecosystem, Accumulated human waste skews a bacterial ecosystem out of balance. I add a bacterial product to my septic system to create a balanced ecosystem.
Lorna

Nevertheless, I'll try to continue a reasonable discourse, at least for three points. Note that I am not emotional over this issue, so I hope you don't feel attacked again.

My "am I nuts" comment was for collecting urine as a female, not questioning urine in compost.

I suppose I can't say that my urine is guaranteed to be sterile, but doctors and scientists agree that urine, from healthy people, is sterile.

Babies get diaper rash from the moisture, not the urine.

Peace :)

(And if people keep "urine-saturated" diapers in the diaper pail, no wonder the baby gets a diaper rash! Change that baby's diaper BEFORE it's totally soaked!)

Pee, incidentally, is a very green green. (If you want it to be a literally green green, eat a mint-flavored sno cone -- or so my husband remembers from his childhood :-).)

This is some info I copied from a United Kingdom URL:
http://www.sustainablebuild.co.uk/CompostToilets.html

"All composting toilets decompose waste by creating the aerobic conditions for bacteria, fungi, worms and other macro and micro-organisms to thrive. The objective is to destroy harmful pathogens, reduce the risk to human health and environment, and transform the waste nutrients into fertile soil. They typically break down waste to 10% of the original volume. Most toilet composting systems are low-temperature, known as mouldering toilets, but others are hot (thermophiliac). The waste material must be heated high enough that pathogens are destroyed, or left for long enough that pathogens break down naturally.

Compost that is too wet becomes anaerobic and produces unpleasant odours. Because of this some composting toilets separate the urine from the faeces. The collected urine goes through a process of nitrification, resulting in an odourless, bacteria-free liquid that can be used as a fertiliser or leached safely into the ground. Other models collect urine and faeces together, and either evaporate the liquid off completely or require the addition of carbon material such as sawdust, leaf mould, straw or grass clippings to soak up the liquid... "

Something else to consider is why do plants, which my male dogs repeatedly lift their legs on, die? I don't know the answer, but my male dogs have killed a few of my flowering plants by peeing on them. People say female dog urine on a lawn causes dead spots, but they don't say the same thing about male dogs. I don't know why that is. I fenced in my produce garden to keep the dogs out.

Lorna

Hepatitis A is transmitted through fecal matter. Does that have anything to do with urine? Possibly, as people often urinate when they defecate, cross contamination.

Hepatitis B is transmitted through blood, as well as bodily fluids which have been contaminated by blood, notably semen and saliva. If a person urinating has a genital skin/membrane breakage, where blood has contaminated urine, it is possible to transmit through urine.

Hepatitis C is said to be transmitted solely through blood contact. However, if B can be transmitted through bodily fluids which have blood in them, why wouldn't the same be true of C?

Lorna

Grass burns where dogs urinate because there's too much nitrogen. (It also may be relevant that it's being "applied" directly to the plant, rather than to the soil.) Nitrogen is beneficial in gardens in the proper amount but, like anything, too much is too much. That's why most people dilute urine if they want to use it as fertilizer directly around plants, and that's why I'm using it in my compost pile where it'll be used as food for the microherd.

Regarding E. Coli. It's also found in spinach. Should I no longer put spinach in my compost pile? And what about salmonella from tomatoes and peppers? Perhaps I should stay away from adding fruits and vegetables to my compost pile. Egads, what is left? Animal faeces it is! :smile:

My point: everyone has a different comfort level. Some are not comfortable with compost at all. Some are comfortable with composting, but only in an enclosed bin; in an open pile but without meat and dairy; or without weeds; or without any animal waste; or without any meat-eating animal waste; and you see how the spectrum continues...

I never suggested that others should add urine to their compost piles or bins because you're right, flutterby, it's not worth it to many people, whether it be because of health concerns or simply "ew" factors. I hear tell of one infamous gardenweb user who has a particular repulsion to bread being added to compost. Her decision. Personally, what grosses me out more than urine is the idea of adding hair. Why? I have absolutely no idea. But I'll tell you what: I won't try to dissuade someone else from adding hair to his or her pile. (yech!)

This is probably off topic but I just want to say that actually using broad spectrum antibiotics has contributed greatly to the "superbugs" that attack us. There are many resistant strains of pathogens, like mrsa and vre. Diseases that were once very rare outside of the hospital setting (like certain pneumonias) are now being seen in the community, due in part from using these broad spectrum antibiotics. So what we do does make a difference.

I meant to add this to my previous post about urine being sterile. What I understand is that, from a normally healthy person, it is sterile until it exits the bladder. And parts of the urinary tract that were once thought to be sterile are now questionable. Go figure.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting anyone does anything in particular except be informed and be aware. Hope I have not offended anyone.

Sarah

Sarah: Cute! But, um... no. Won't be used in my back yard. I think that would be an "emergencies only" product. :o)

I too have enjoyed the give and take of information in this thread. Thank you everyone!

:)
Dee

I've been pondering starting this practice around my house, but I've really wanted to find some more elegant, chamber-pot type solution to the temporary storage issue. Preferably with a handle for easy carrying. Has anyone seen something like this?

cheers,
Kim

An internet search turns up many devices that help women attain urinary freedom, and some that promote the more natural approach. See the following articles written by a registered nurse.

http://otoh.org/mirror/restrooms.org/standing.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20021201123416/www.restrooms.org/problems.html

A serious internet search will demonstrate ZERO danger to using urine, whether to activate the compost pile or to dilute as directly applied fertilizer. I can't find any documented information that germs and pathogens will be spread, only opinions and fears. Even caution about withholding urine fertilization for a certain number of days before harvest seems to be only opinion.

I'm an engineering tech, so I might be approaching this situation a little differently than others:

1. It requires gallons of drinking water to flush--water I pay for on my water bill and collected from somewhere for drinking use. And don't talk to me about low-flow toilets. The joke is that there's a sign posted in the restroom stating "Low-flow toilet. Please keep flushing until the paper goes down."
2. Gallons of water flushed add to the burden of treatable waste at the sewage facility
3. Excess algae grows in our waterways from nitrogen NOT removed in the treatment process before discharge
4. Why pay for limited nutrient, refined fertilizer when I make my own?
5. Making my own garden soil is a step toward self-sufficiency

Personal compost activator. I like the sound of that.

BTW, I'm doing an experiment. I have a compost pile that is about 5' in diameter, about 3' high. For the past week I've been adding ALL of my daily urine output to the pile. I add it at least twice a day, so it is always relatively fresh. There is no olfactory evidence whatsoever. :-)

One more comment: I image that those who master the technique in the link above with proficiency to write their name in the snow in BLOCK letters will have tremendously strong "kegels."

Skirt

I have linked to the FDA website so that you can see the precautions that they are planning to impliment to prevent any mammal from putting body fluids in the food chain.

Regarding the FDA link, This wouldn't be the first time the government has hoped to implement policies that waste resources and end up costing us more. There's probably a forum somewhere else to discuss politics . . . but not here :-)

The Washington Post article discusses human urine as a safe fertilizer. See link below.

Our "hygenic" society usually rejects this method, with more acceptance in third-world countries. . . but obviously there are some home gardeners that are willing to take advantage of this resource.

:-)

Each person must make up their own mind what they wish to do. Since the first post was in August 2008 that poster has probably already figured out their best way.

As far as the link, if you had bothered to read, there is a section if implimented that people not using their recommendations would be subject to penalties. Part of the recommendations are not to allow any natural urine or waste in the area of garden produce. Since human urine is still, the last time I checked, natural people using urine could if the changes are implimented not be able to use their produce except for the growers own use. No passing to family members etc. Since this goes directly to using your urine in the garden and has nothing to do with it being safe or not I posted.

For those that want something more than holding a can under them a folding stool can be purchased where you find medical supplies. Some have an airtight lid that will allow for several deposits, which is the one I would recommend but some do not.

Sometimes on trash day you can find these on the curb where the family has thown out, Thrift shop also.

With these rules, Mr. Smith is going to have to activate the compost for only Mr. Smith's garden, Mrs. Smith, for Mrs. Smith's garden, etc., or risk government penalties.

BTW, I checked my compost pile yesterday. It is hot, and has the delightful aroma of perfectly composting materials. I can't wait to use it to grow my next crop of fresh vegetables.

Although the new rules are coming from the current admistration they are fueled by the general publics fear of germs. In order to keep every thing germ free some really wacky, to my mind, things as listed in the pieces would have to happen.

Being older I was exposed to all kinds of germs growing up todays population grew up while everything was to be kept spotless. They want their food to be spotless also. Although you want to protect your children from everything some times a little real dirt will protect them for years in the future. When people ask for spotless food the government will try to provide it even at the expense of what I call common sense. I am well aware that there are some germs like the ecoli's that can kill which means no animal should come close to the food supply. I fell bad for the families but growing all food in what to me is a sterile greenhouse environment could reduce some of the health benefits that we currently receive from our foods being grown with the benefits of growing in a non-sterile environment. I have posted the FDA link in the Hot Topics a couple of days ago so this will be my last comment on here as it is really off topic. It does effect becoming green using what we do have available.