You are talking about 2 very different methods of making pickles - fermented pickles vs. fresh pack (aka quick process) - and they work very differently and for the most part aren't interchangeable.

Ziedrich's book has a chapter on Fermented Pickles (Chap. 2) and they contain minimal if any vinegar. The rest of the pickle recipes are fresh pack and yes vinegar is required for them and can't be adjusted. In other words, you can't turn a fresh pack pickle recipe into a fermented pickle recipe because fermentation works to preserve with lactic acid while 'pickling' uses vinegar (acetic acid) to preserve.

That said, yes fermented pickles may be processed for shelf storage after the fermentation is completed. If I recall correctly the instructions are in the book but if not then NCHFP provides the processing instructions adjusted for altitude - 10 min for pints and 15 min for quarts in BWB.

Tell us which specific Ziedrich recipe you are using or want to make so we can give you specific details, ok?

Dave

Here is a link that might be useful: NCHFP - Fermented Pickles

In my experience canned fermented pickles often loose their crispness.
I am with you that most recipes for fresh packed pickles have too much vinegar to my taste. I understand that it is done for safety, but I doubt so much vinegar is actually a healthy thing to consume.
Fermented pickle taste much much better in my opinion too.

Olga

Thanks, Dave. I'm not used to making pickles or using a pressure cooker, and have too many veggies to ferment and keep in the fridge (for a change!). I'm having to learn different ways to preserve food, instead of relying on my freezer and refrigerator for all of it. I looked at the fermented pickles entry, hot water bath at 180-185�F for 30 minutes, and that looks like a great solution, thanks! Low pasteurization doesn't destroy the nutrients, at least not as much as pressure canning would.

One thing I want to preserve is a couple of really large winter squash. ON p. 159, Ziedrich has a recipe for crisp pickled pumpkin or squash. It has 2 cups of ACV per 3-1/2 lbs. of squash. That seems like it would make the squash sour. I may make 1/2 of the recipe to see how I like it. She doesn't say how long they will be good for, and I need to be able to preserve these for maybe a year, until these squash are available again next fall.

I can think of two options - one is to make her recipe, without the vinegar, and can it. It wouldn't be fermented, so it would need to be pressure cooked, right?

The other option is to use another recipe, which is probably what I'll do - cook the squash and make a puree, and dehydrate it and put the pieces into food saver bags and keep them in a jar on a shelf.

I think what I was originally asking is answered by processing the pickled veggies after they're fermented. Her recipes look great, I like the seasoning combinations, but don't like that much vinegar.

Olga, I'm making mixed vegetable ferments, with cauliflower, turnips, carrots, radishes, and when they are done, I'm going to do the hot water bath on a couple of small jars of each and see how I like them.

I don't know that apple cider vinegar would be bad for you, but the white stuff? Don't know about that. I use it for disinfecting in my kitchen and hardly ever cook with it at all!

In my experience canned fermented pickles often loose their crispness.

Easy to prevent by using Pickle Crisp. It can be added to any recipe where extra crispness is preferred.
I am with you that most recipes for fresh packed pickles have too much vinegar to my taste. I understand that it is done for safety, but I doubt so much vinegar is actually a healthy thing to consume.

Like degree of crispness desired, fermented pickle vs. vinegar pickle is just a matter of personal taste. Many prefer fresh pack (vinegar) pickles over fermented. But in no way is the amount of vinegar called for in approved pickle recipes harmful. First because the consumption of vinegar is generally considered beneficial from a medical point of view and second because you don't actually consume that much of it when eating the pickles - not unless you drink the brine in the jar.

So there are pros and cons to both methods but it all boils down to personal preference.

I looked at the fermented pickles entry, hot water bath at 180-185�F for 30 minutes, and that looks like a great solution, thanks! Low pasteurization doesn't destroy the nutrients, at least not as much as pressure canning would.

The link I posted was for the BWB processing time rather than the pasteurization because the pasteurization process has very limited applicability. It can only be used on recipes that call for it in the instructions because it requires a specific pH to insure safety. Thus most recipes approved for pasteurization will include at least some vinegar added. See details linked below.

One thing I want to preserve is a couple of really large winter squash. ON p. 159, Ziedrich has a recipe for crisp pickled pumpkin or squash. It has 2 cups of ACV per 3-1/2 lbs. of squash. That seems like it would make the squash sour. I may make 1/2 of the recipe to see how I like it. She doesn't say how long they will be good for, and I need to be able to preserve these for maybe a year, until these squash are available again next fall.

Recipe is page 116 in the new edition for those who what to check it out. It is a fresh pack (not fermented) sweet pickle recipe that also includes 1 cup of sugar so no it wouldn't be sour. The recipe calls for BWB processing for 10 mins. Once processed the jars will store indefinitely (like most canned goods) unless opened. Once opened it must be refrigerated.

I can think of two options - one is to make her recipe, without the vinegar, and can it. It wouldn't be fermented, so it would need to be pressure cooked, right?

Then it wouldn't be a pickle. It would just be canned pumpkin/squash which is a whole other thing and would require pressure canning. See: http://nchfp.uga.edu/how/can_04/pumpkin_winter_squash.html

If I understand your questions correctly you are trying to preserve primarily vegetables and do it without a pressure canner, correct? If so then you need to understand that vegetables are low PH and require pressure canning for safe shelf storage.

If you don't want to do pressure canning then your only option is to (1) ferment them in lactic acid and then pasteurize them IF the recipe is approved for pasteurization or process them in a BWB OR (2) pickle them in vinegar (acetic acid) and then process them in a BWB. Either way if what you want is shelf storage then they must be processed in a BWB.

Don't rule out vinegar preservation without trying it. It is by far the more common way of pickling for most folks and not nearly as strange tasting as you might think because it is often diluted, sweetened and/or flavored with other spices. ACV is much milder and sweeter in flavor than white but either can be used safely as can wine vinegar as long as it is 5% acidity.

I hope this helps. If not let us know.

Dave

Here is a link that might be useful: NCHFP - Pasteurization Guidelines

I guess, my stomach is just too weak, I can't handle ANY vinegar in amount which are recommended for safe fresh pack pickles. My whole family is this way.
I ferment all the time (vegetables and cheeses) and just use fridge for storage. I ferment in smaller batches and start a new batch when the previous one is coming to its end. Sometimes extra fridge in a basement or garage can be a solution :). Whatever works for you. Good luck with your fermentations.
Fermented vegetables can be really tasty.
Olga

Dave, thanks so much! Yes, I want to stay away from canning for the present. It looks like there are so many options for the higher acid-water bath recipes.

I found some pickles that I made nearly 2 years ago, and they are really good, and I'm planning to make them again soon. One recipe is lemon-grapefruit chutney from "Pickles, Relishes and Chutneys", by Gail Duff. It seems that this recipe was too strong for me when I first tried it, but this jar has been sitting there for nearly 2 years and it must have tamed down because I really like it. Found a bottle of pickled beets, don't know where the recipe came from, and they're good, too, as is a jar of cucumber pickles labeled "Turkish Pickles", don't know where they came from either. I didn't really understand what I was doing when I made these pickles, and was afraid of botulism (but they're all made with vinegar, strictly by the recipes), and tossed most of them when they seemed too tart, but found these unopened jars and am going to enjoy them now.

A couple of years ago, I did make a leek and pine nut pickle (from Duff's book) and it was totally inedible because it was too tart. I wonder if it would be better after sitting on the shelf for 2 years, but I won't be able to find out because I tossed it!

Olga, yes, I really like fermented vegetables, and have a fridge that's too small to keep them all in. I really like fermented okra. It's because of the space problem that I want to find another way to preserve some of them. Several jars of fermented daikons from my garden, along with several jars of kimchi, sauerkraut, root veggie ferments, and other things simply won't leave me any room in my fridge for everyday things.

I just took a tour of my pantry. I have several different kinds of vinegars. Some don't have any % (including an ACV from Whole Foods; I'm assuming all of those are less than 5%), and a couple are 4.5%. Found a couple that are 5%. Looks like I'll be getting some more vinegar before I start pickling anything!

Keep in mind that pickles will mellow considerably with shelf time, as natural juuices exude from the product and mix with the vinegar. That's part of the reason why vinegar solutions tend to be strong - because over time they do become weaker.

You can also reduce the "zing" by using mellower vinegars like apple cider or white wine as long as they're 5%.

If, after suitable shelf storage (some recipes require 6 months) you find the pickles are too acidic for your taste, you can drain and soak in some cold water (or multiple soaks) to leach some of the vinegar out.

Carol

Thanks, Carol. I was wondering if the pickles would mellow over time.

Acidifying your system is a great thing for you, vinegar is not bad for your body at all, especially apple cider vinegar. Fermented foods are even better for you, but I have not had any fermented pickles I yet like. Guess I have to keep on trying. Finally found a big glass jar to try my hand at kimchi at least!

"Acidifying your system is a great thing for you, vinegar is not bad for your body at all, especially apple cider vinegar".
It depends. A lot of people have acid reflux problems these days.
Olga