Lactic Acid Fermenting Thread #1

My friend Ian is a hot sauce manufacturer (Horned Fox brand) in England and grows hot peppers in huge poly tunnel greenhouses. He also is very interested in fermenting pepper mash and is currently experimenting with a pepper/onion/apple/carrot mash in aprox 6 gallon demijohns such as home brewers use. They are equipped with an airlock as in the picture below. One of the concerns with fermenting is knowing when to interrupt the first stage of fermenting by lowering the temperature so all the 'food' isn't consumed by the first stage bacteria. The lower temperature allows different bacteria and yeasts to feed. And then follows the aging and flavoring stage at even lower temperatures. It would be helpful if we could sample the fermenting mash periodically without contaminating the process with fresh air and losing the CO₂ barrier. My first idea was silicone tubing threaded down through the airlock. Clamp off the outside end until sample is wanted. That would work, but a better idea might be to drill an additional hole into the rubber stopper (that the airlock is inserted into) and use aquarium airline tubing. It could be sealed with a silicone cement.

New ideas are very welcome!!

jt

About my fermentation trials, i have some troubles. I opened one of my jars (chopped paprika, 1 ts liquid which is strained from supermarket kefir drink, salt, brine, weight, all in a ball jar and the temp is 22C) after 11 days to check pH.

The pH was 3,84 which indicated me that some fermentation had took place, but there was no puff sound when I opened the jar, meaning no pressure inside. Do your jars puff?
About the smell, it is like very rich in paprika but nothing else. And the taste, suprizingly it was like almost tasteless.

Actually what I was expecting was at least a little touch of aroma which Frank's hot sauce and almost all the commercial hot sauces has, you know that decent taste and aroma of fermented pepper. If I had smelled it in my jar, I would believe that I was on the right track for the next 2 months. Does this closed system supply good conditions for yeast fungi to grow?

By the way, for a proper experiment, I have ordered 20(!) boxes of the freze dried kefir starter you are using, hope it is flying right now.

The pH is a little high for 11 days which tells me there was not a whole lot of fermentation going on. 22° should be an excellent temperature, but I have found that peppers like it a few degrees warmer.

Dried kefir starter works great. Live kefir grains work better. And a sourdough starter works best of all. What's good about the dried starter is that it is presumably the same each and every time you use it.

Peppers by themselves do not seem to ferment well. (garlic by itself is impossible in my experience) What I have been doing is adding other ingredients to the fermenting peppers. Onion, carrot, sour apples etc work very well and you will end up with a more flavorful and a lower pH result.

A closed system is ideal for yeasts to grow if they are present in the first place and if the first stage of fermenting hasn't used up all the food. I'm finding that 2-3 days (depending on what starter was used) at 35°C and then 7 days at 25°C followed by 30 days at 7°C works for most everything that I ferment. The 7°C is 4 or 5 degrees colder than I would like, but my final stage refrigerator will only go up to 7°C.

The final month at the coolest temperatures is where the real aging and flavoring takes place. The more complex flavors I mean. The peppers, onions, carrots, salt etc combination gives a very acceptable result in as little as 10 days. Remember... Tabasco sauce is aged for 5 years!!

The canning jars & Ball Ideal jars that I use do not let a lot of gas pressure build up so a slight 'poof' is all I ever get and if am taking out of my final stage refrigerator I don't expect any. Possibly due to Charles' Law. When I use 5 oz woozys to ferment in I have to be careful when opening because they seal much tighter.

And remember most of all that I am not an expert at this. Only been at it since September and my only worth is that I try a lot of things and document results so we can learn from my mistakes and successes.

That kefir drink that you bought at market... why not pour a little into a jar and add some whole milk. Let sit for a couple of days at room temps and then test for pH. It might make an excellent starter and have more yeasts than the commercial brand.

jt

Thinking again about why my trial was that tasteless, it made some sense that if most of the carbohydrate had been used up by the long first phase. I should switch to second phase after 3-4days (actually the right time is as soon as it reaches ph4.1) and let the yeast fungi grow for new aromas while letting lactobacillus sleep (or get numb) in the cold.

About the temperatures you have mentioned, it is the first time I heard 35C, thinking it was rather high (not for the peppers of course but for our winterlike weather right now) but I will find a way.

What makes a man an expert is his number of experiments, right? But sure everyone has to play his own game on the safe side:)
Thanks and regards!

Holy smokes! I was way off on my temperature numbers. Just not used to thinking in Centigrade or Celsius instead of Fahrenheit. My apologies.

I find 75°F a good starting temperature for 2-3 days. Then 7 days at 65°F followed by a month at 45°F.

I watch the bubbles to determine how long for the 1st and 2nd stages. If enough bubbles are being produced in 2 days stage 1 then the ferment goes into stage 2. If after 7 days there are still lots of new bubbles being produced I might leave longer. 10 days is not unusual.

Sorry for the errors.

jt

I am wondering if it might be worth the effort to, say, ferment a bunch of cucumbers or green beans at the end of the summer in a 2 gal or so crock, and then keep them in the crock in the store room over the winter, where the temp. is 45ºF from Oct. to May. What would I need to do?

Sure wish that I had a 45° storeroom. My little fridge is full to the brim with quarts, pints and woozys.

Keep in mind that kahm yeast mold can grow at that temperature and most probably will. That is the main reason that I have gone to a closed system and will be stocking up in mostly pints and quarts. I've yet to use my 2 gal Ball Ideal jar and will probably ebay the Harsch crock.

It is fun to do things the traditional way though. When and if you do, you might want to try some grapefruit seed extract and spray the surface every time you remove some of the beans or cukes. Totally safe and effective for killing mold. People actually drink the darn stuff for health reasons. I've been using a 50 drop per pint ratio to keep untreated slow to germinate seeds from getting that white, hairy fungus that sometimes grows on the seed surface. (I surface sow all my seeds and wait for a radicle to appear before I cover them with soil mix)

I am sooo anxious for my fermenting French green beans and the stringbeans to be ready. Took a pint jar of just plain onion rings out this morning after only 3 weeks of 45°. Every morning I eat a couple spoonfuls of fermented veggies because one of my meds requires to take with food. Tomorrow I will be taking it with fermented onion rings. Tonight the rings will grace a grilled Black Angus beef burger along with some refrigerator pickled with sugar and vinegar hot pepper slices. Those peppers are going on 2 years old now.

Roasted Hatch chiles!!! It doesn't get any better!! I envy you.

jt

Will raw asparagus work or must it be cooked some to bring out the flavor? I hope raw is OK. Otherwise I'll ferment much like green beens with onions, savory etc.

A friend in Wisc sends me pickled (canned) asparagus every year and it is fantastic. I love asparagus. He and his wife get the texture just perfect.

jt

Turk(the impatient)

My apologies for not answering earlier.

To be honest, I haven't had Frank's for a few years now and don't remember the aroma. However, to me the fermented sauces smell mostly acidic & garlicky. It just depends on what the ingredients are. More 'sharp' than the commercial sauces for sure.

I can't wait to make more pepper/onion/carrot (and garlic) mash to ferment. My 45° fridge is full, but some of my fermented green beans will be ready within the week and will have room.

Please keep us posted as to how your ferments turn out.

jt

One of these days I'll do a step by step pictorial of the process.

On 30 April 2007 started the following in six 5 oz woozys:

8.6 oz stemed and seeded Mex Manzanos with placenta intact
2.3 oz yellow onion
2.0 oz baby carrots
2 cloves peeled garlic
16 tbs distilled water
1/4 cup white Zinfandel wine
1.5 oz Granny Smith apple
1 tbs canning salt
2 tbs sourdough 'hooch' for a starter
fresh ground black pepper

Liquefied in blender and poured into 5 oz woozys. Added restrictor valve and twisted cap on finger tight + a little

About a week to 10 days at room temps and then into 45° fridge for a month depending on how fermenting activity has been looking.

The firmented string beans and French style beans both turned out well The French style were more crisp and I preferred the tast of the regular.

Sweet pickles using Mrs Wages turned out well too. I prefer dill though.

Just a short update.

jt