It may just be the terms but I am having difficulty understanding exactly what you are asking. I don't make a lot of brined sweet pickles but I never think of them as "fermented" nor do most recipes I am familiar with refer to them as "fermented".

Fermenting and brining are totally different pickling processes in other words. So is it possible that you are trying to compare a brined recipe with a fermented recipe?

Could you give examples of recipes you are comparing?

Dave

I am confused, too. Usually fermented means dill pickles. The others are brined, as Dave said.
The sweet pickles we make are put into fresh boiling water for a few days, then a sweet syrup is made, then that syrup is drained off and boiled and poured back on for a few more days.

You are right... I am looking at 2 multiple day sweet pickle recipes that have different instructions regarding draining and reapplying salt brine. The Nat Center for Food Preservation 14 day recipe has the brine drained and replaced on the 3rd and 5th day before the syrup is applied. The other (Linda Lou's Sweet Chunk Recipe) has the cucs drained and boiled salt water added daily right from the start for 4 days before the syrup is added.

Do you think there a big difference in end product between these two recipes? And would it make a huge difference if I rinsed/drained/replaced the salt brine more often in the 14 day recipe?

I don't have any experience with this type of recipe and I was just wondering about this. Maybe it is simply explained as "different" recipes but I thought I 'd ask. Thanks

In those cases it is just a difference in the ways to keep the brine clean and fresh, to deal with any bacteria development, and to recharge it to compensate for the dilution of the brine that develops as water leaches out of the cukes.

In one case you replace with new brine every couple of days, in the other you boil and recharge the brine.

End result is similar but for what it is worth since I have made both, Linda Lou's chunks are much better in my opinion than the whole pickle ones at NCHFP.

Dave

My recipe doesn't have salt in the water. I don't know where you found the directions with salt. It is just plain boiled water. Not that I am biased, but mine are best !

opps... I stand corrected, Linda Lou... I was looking at the 14 day sweet pickle process. I am still curious why some have salt and some don't in the initial set up process but they both have boiling liquid poured over the cucs. What does the salt do for the brine and why is it that it isn't needed in your recipe Linda Lou? Just trying to understand how different processes pickle.

The salt leaches juices out of the cucumber. It assists in making a firmer product and then the salt is rinsed off. This kind of thing is often done with vegetable relishes and pickles as it removes excess juices which would dilute the pickling solution.

Boiling water removes contaminants and bacteria on the surface which contribute to softening and spoilage, among other things. It also changes the texture of the cucumbers. Sometimes ice water serves this purpose.

Fermentation is an entirely different process as it's not a preparation it is the way the pickles are made. During fermentation the salt solution and cucumbers and natural yeasts interact to create natural lactic acid, which is why vinegar (diluted acetic acid) isn't necessary.

Carol

Oh.. I find it interesting to see the processes in different recipes...some recipes use salt, some recipes use boiling water, and some recipes use both. If one needed to reduce salt then the recipes w/o the salt process would be a great option. I was curious to know the reason's behind the methods. I haven't had much luck with pickled cucumbers and was just trying to figure out the "why" part of the various methods. Thanks for the explanation.

Sweet or dill , does not or should not make a difference.

In pickling, like a mix veggies, peppers, okra , etc. the soultion level will keep going down as the solution penetrates into pepper , okra even cucumbers and the air is released.

So I keep some of the original brine/vinegar solution (in the frig) and keep adding to the pickle jar untill it is stablized. I usually, make a combination of "fermenting" and refrigerated pickle. i.e . in the beginnin, refrigerate it(Until it is settled.) Then keep it outside for a while to let it partially ferment. Then I refrigerate it again. It lasts and stays crisp for over a year easily.

Interesting info seysonn. I will keep that in mind. My cucs are just now starting to come on so I will have opportunity to give pickling them a go. I have stayed away from cucs because they usually get too soft for my liking but I remember my aunts pickles and hope that I would be able to pull off a good batch or two.

Fermented pickles should not be partially fermented. They need to be fully fermented to have enough lactic acid to prevent listeria. Do the fermenting first, then keep in the fridge, or better yet, process them properly once they are done fermenting.

Canfan, I have had many people try my pickle recipes with huge success. No soft pickles ever for me. Also, as a note, processing them will actually make them more firm as processing kills enzymes that cause them to deteriorate.
Please, use a current, safe tested recipe. Many old recipes used vinegar that was much stronger than our current 5 % vinegar. You also need to watch out since some cheap ones are only 4% acidity and not safe to use, either.
Quick pack pickles are the easiest to start out with.

You can use Pickle Crisp in each jar to keep them firm, too. It is same thing as commercial industry uses. You buy with canning supplies or on line.

In addition to Linda Lou's point about the hazards of partially fermented pickles, adding stored brine that is more than 24 hours old and is first not re-heated to boiling to kill the bacteria that have developed isn't recommended.

Excess brine can be stored briefly. How long depends on the pH of the brine. But it needs to be boiled again first before using.

And as already discussed, fermented pickles and brined pickles are two entirely different processes. They aren't safely interchangeable.

Dave

thanks for the follow up. I am making sweet pickles. It is a 14 day recipe. I have a few more days of draining/rebrining to go. Then the syrup is added/drained/reboiled for a few more days. I am using 5 % cider vinegar for the brine.. I hope to give dills a try.. maybe via fermentation.. but need to complete this project first.

I have a Gartopf pickling crock and was getting ready today to make fermented dills pickles. And that's when my husband asked if I could make a sweeter pickle this year . . . and he also asked I could make them crisper (my prior attempt last year created a delicious edible pickle but they weren't very crisp). So my questions are two-fold:

1. What is the secret to a crisp fermented pickle besides:

a) Using small cukes

b) Using fresh cukes (I have approx 4 lbs of small cukes that were picked this week. Some of them are now a week old . . . will they crisp up?)

c) Adding grape leaves or other tannin rich leaves to the crock

d) Plunging the cukes in ice cold water for a couple of hours before adding to the crock

e) Adding a chemical such as Pickle Crisp, which I suspicious of because the whole reason I can is to reduce my exposure to unnecessary chemicals.

2. I am tempted to try Linda Lou's recipe since it will satisfy my husband's desire for a sweeter pickle.

a) Is this a very sweet bread and butter type pickle? Or is this more like a half sour garlic pickle?

b. Why is Linda Lou's pickle recipe considered fermentation. I'm using the book "Wild Fermentation" as a guide and it would seem that the boiling water kills the lactic acid fermentation process. I really don't understand how Linda Lou's pickles ferment without salt either.

c. I would imagine that if I poured boiling water into my crock it would crack. So what would I do in this case?

Thanks to anyone interested in responding!!

This post was edited by judydel on Sat, Aug 10, 13 at 12:42

1. What is the secret to a crisp fermented pickle besides:

In general fermented pickles are never as crisp as brined pickles or quick pack because of the way fermenting works.

While an ice water, ice & salt, pickling lime, or alum pre-soak can help, the longer the better and overnight is common, much of the effect is lost during the normal fermenting process.

Some swear by grape leaves others, including me, find no benefit.

Pickle Crisp is not a chemical, it is a natural salt that had been refined to food-safe levels. But it is normally only used with fermented pickles if you plan to can and process them. I've never heard of incorporating it into the fermenting part of the process but perhaps others have.

So IMO the secret to getting the crispiest fermented pickles possible is fresh cukes, just harvested. The standard recommendation is used within 24 hours. Week old cukes are NOT fresh cukes and no they won't get back any of their crsipness.. Smaller cukes aren't necessarily crispier, they are just harder.

2) Linda Lou's recipe is not a bread and butter type recipe. It is a very sweet sweet pickle. And it is not a fermentation recipe. It is a brined recipe. There are no sweet fermented pickles. Fermented pickles are dills, sweets are brined or quick packed.

Fermented pickles and brined pickles, as explained above, are totally different processes. And no, it would not be done in your crock but in some sort of boiling water tolerant container.

Hope this helps clarify.

Dave

This post was edited by digdirt on Sat, Aug 10, 13 at 13:06

Yes Dave, once again great clarification. Thanks!

One last question. I just bit into one of the cukes picked earlier this week and it is still crisp. Should it stay at this level of crispness in the fermenting crock or will it turn soft simply because it isn't fresh picked?

It will get somewhat softer just due to the fermenting process. As i tried to explain above - fermenting softens anything. It is just the way the process works. That is why starting with the freshest stuff is so important.

There is an old adage about pickin' and crockin' - taking the crock with you to the garden when picking cukes and it has some truth in it. Off the vine and into the crock ASAP.

Dave

Gottcha! It's so hard to have enough small cukes ready on exactly the same day. Especially since I have a 10L crock. Maybe I'll add small summer squash and string beans to the cukes . . . Sandor Katz from Wild Fermentation claims you can mix veggies.

Mine are NOT fermented. They do not produce any natural lactic acid. The acid in the form of vinegar is in the sweet brine when it is added after the several days of plain boiling water. No salt is added to the water. If you salted the water, then they may start to ferment, plus who wants salty sweet pickles ?
They are VERY sweet, crunchy chunks of pickles. More sweet than bread and butter. Totally different in flavor.
They are really good !

Gottcha! It's so hard to have enough small cukes ready on exactly the same day. Especially since I have a 10L crock.

Very true. Only way is to plant lots of plants. Even with the 15 plants I have this year there are production gaps. But then you don't have to fill the 10 liter crock to use it either.

I have tried mixing vegetables before but we didn't like the change in flavor the mixing resulted in. It is a personal taste preference thing. The dill green beans just don't taste 'right' to me.

We find the squash dilutes the brine so much because it has so much more water in it yet it doesn't contribute any flavor of its own. So I'd suggest trying a small batch first to see if you like it.

Dave

Uh oh. Yesterday I put in about 2/3 cucumbers and 1/3 yellow squash. We'll see I guess, lol.

I wonder if I should have made a saltier brine then? I made a 3.5% brine.

This post was edited by judydel on Sun, Aug 11, 13 at 17:44