I would give 1/2" a try. Neither water nor appropriate foods should siphon at that measure; if product were too tightly packed and it expanded, that would cause siphoning, but obviously that's not a problem with water.

Basically you're looking for siphoning of the colored water due to fluctuating/inconsistent pressure and any headspace typical for product should be fine.

Carol

Leave the same amount of head space as required for most foods - 1/2".

Dave

Oops, sorry, have limited time today so I just went with 1" (to bottom of band) rather than waiting longer for replies. Took a little while to get steaming, but not long to come up to pressure once I put the weight on, that was on High (10), I turned down to 8 right away and the weight was still wobbling quite fast (gauge looks right on - pegged at 10.75?), I dropped to 7.5, then 7, 6.5, 6, 5.5 heat settings over the course of 7 minutes, hope that didn't cause siphoning but it sounded like it was boiling furiously.

Is it better to lower the heat to a Medium setting (since it seemed to maintain pressure) right away, or to creep it down? Or just start and leave it on say 8-9 the whole time since I have the weights?

Pressure started dropping as soon as I removed it from the heat, I will have to move the canner off my glass countersaver back onto stove before removing the lid so I can turn on the range hood and not steam the front of my overhead cabinets.

Next run (might not be until tomorrow) I will try the 1/2" HS and 15 lb weight.

I did start getting a strange smell about halfway through - I hope that was just the new gasket or something and not the canner running dry. I put the 3 qts or water in according to manual but it was barely 2" so I added more until I had 3", when I put the jars (6 quarts) in the water was about 3/4 of the way up the jars. Had a little bubbling around the lid lock button and the vent pipe until it had vented the 10 minutes and I put the weight on, then a teeny bit of hissing around the vent pipe but not much and stopped around the lid lock. Never had any leaks around gasket or gauge.

Oh, I have so many questions about PCing now - you still want the water at 140 for raw pack, 180 (barely simmering) for hot pack, right? So you don't just "fill the canner to 3 inches with hot water", you should start the burner before filling the jars? And you probably still want to simmer the jars in the canner to warm them before filling? That might have been why it took a while to get the canner venting, I did warm the water to lukewarm but the jars were room temp when I filled them (took a while since I only have 8C measure) with hot water (about 6C at a time, 5 min in 1100W microwave then poured into the jars) so maybe it was close to raw pack temps, not hot pack?

And I heard lids flexing (not really strong pings like sealing, but definite popping) while processing - normal? The canner is cooling now, I still hear some hissing and popping.

Success! No siphoning, all the jars sealed. I don't have time today to run another load, but the inside if the canner up to the waterline (with jars in it) is BLACK! It discolored a little last weekend when I used it as a BWB, but this is really bad. Presto says it can be cleaned with cream of tartar and an SOS pad. I never thought it would be this bad - I don't think the old AA I bought with a lot of jars is this bad.

And 1 lid has some kind of blotchy film or residue (scrapes off with nail) on it - rest are fine. That one sealed but it's strange. Presto says to avoid film on jars to use vinegar, and I didn't care for this batch, but would that have helped with discoloration and this lid? I did put a couple of glugs of vinegar in when using as a BWB just b/c so much water, didn't bother today with only 3" (but I think that turned out to be over a gallon).

With any new metal it takes awhile for the the pan to 'season'. I'm adding the vinegar, just a gulg or 2 and it really does help with the hard water film on the jars. I don't have the problems with black water. It could just be the new metal and your water. I'd add the vinegar and watch, it should calm down after a few batches.

the inside if the canner up to the waterline (with jars in it) is BLACK! It discolored a little last weekend when I used it as a BWB, but this is really bad.

Yeah assuming it was well washed with hot soapy water after using it for a BWB then that's got to be something in your water that the aluminum is reacting to. You need to always use the couple of glugs of vinegar in the water.

Is it better to lower the heat to a Medium setting (since it seemed to maintain pressure) right away, or to creep it down? Or just start and leave it on say 8-9 the whole time since I have the weights?

Always lower it gradually. But then I never max out the burner setting anyway to bring it up to pressure. If the water is already 180 or so when the jars go in then it doesn't take much to get it up to pressure. Depends on the stove setttings.

I never worry about the 140 degree bit as I never raw pack anything that doesn't require boiling liquid be added to the jar anyway. But yes, you never load a cold canner.

Just follow the steps posted by NCHFP on how to use Pressure Canners. They cover it all.

Dave

Thanks, NCHFP mentions the 140/180 but they don't mention the jars - I just assumed it was the same as with BWB, for hot pack you definitely want the jars hot, but the NCHFP doesn't mention putting the jars in the canner and bringing it up to 180 with them in it before filling, and the manual just says put "hot water" in it. So I warmed the water (might have been 120 since I could put my finger in it), and poured hot (but not boiling) water in the jars, set each in the canner to stay warm as I filled the rest, but it was more like raw pack. I'll try "hot pack" today, pour the colored water in my 6qt Dutch oven to boil before filling the jars that I've preheated in the PC. And start at a lower burner setting.

The water was clear (and I used red food coloring), it's the metal that's black, just the pot up to water line, not above it, not inside of lid, not rack (my old racks I use in BWB are black like that though, were like that when I got them). I did wash the canner, gasket, etc. last weekend before BWBing, and of course emptied water out, dried everything (taking gasket out) but since I didn't have any boilover I don't think I washed it, may not have even rinsed it. It did discolor little to the high water mark then, but nothing like this. So the vinegar must have helped - manual didn't make it clear that it was for that, just said to avoid film on the jars (which I've never had with BWB). But left the water in the canner to cool while we went to dinner at my parents' and came back tonight (about 7 hours after taking the jars out), there was a definite film on the surface - must be the aluminum b/c while I've seen something similar the next day in my SS pot if I leave water in it overnight, it's not this bad. Maybe it's just a little from the old PC rack I use in that pot. That must have been the smell too.

And the water is supposed to be 3" deep BEFORE you put the jars in, right?

BWB and PC are two totally different processes throughout.

but the NCHFP doesn't mention putting the jars in the canner and bringing it up to 180 with them in it before filling

Because there is no need to do that with either BWB processing or PC. When canning anything the jars have to be hot (not sterilized if processing 10 mins or more) to avoid cracking but there are many ways to get hot jars often discussed here.

In this case you fill the jars with boiling liquid (water) just as you would if doing food, add a couple drops of food coloring to each, and set them in the canner which has already been heated to something around 180 degrees, and put on the lid. Don't make the process more complicated than it needs to be.

And the water is supposed to be 3" deep BEFORE you put the jars in, right?
Yes. As the instructions read, fill the canner with 3" of water.

As to the black - the only thing I have ever seen in any canner is the pot turns a slightly darker shade of gray at the water line as it is used. You can see where the water line was on the side. After the pot is emptied and dries, that line fades somewhat. I have never seen one turn black.

Dave

This is a very good step-by-step guide from Ball - but still mentions 3" depth after putting jars in (Step 7) which obviously if it was 3" before (Step 4) it will be deeper afterwards due to displacement, depending on how many jars and how large they are.

I didn't check NCHFP pressure canning steps before running the trial since I used the manual and the new spiral-bound USDA Guide I bought, neither mentioned bringing to 180 for hot pack (in fact, USDA Handbook says "Follow these steps for successful pressure canning:

1. Pour 2 to 3 inches of hot water (more if the recipe calls for it) into the canner. Using a jar lifter positioned securely below the neck of the jar, place each filled jar on the canner rack inside the canner. Keep the jars upright at all times. When the canner is loaded, fasten the lid securely." - no mention of water temperature.

Since I wasn't exactly doing hot pack I didn't bring water to simmer (180) but did warm it, I didn't want the jars to break but I figured that filling them with hot (again not boiling) water from the MW would help, maybe this wasn't a valid test b/c nothing was as hot as it should have been, I will do better next time.

I know it's been mentioned here about taking hot jars from dishwasher - how hot is that exactly? I've always found it easier to heat them in the BWB as I was preheating that, keep them in there as I fill them 1 by 1. OK to do that with PC too (I think I'd fill the canner to 3" plus fill the jars to the neck and preheat, of course dump the jars into the sink before filling so there isn't excess water in the PC)?

I also use water from the BWB to soak the lids in a small bowl, just pour jarful into bowl then put the jar back in the BWB until I'm ready to fill. Once all the lids are on the jars I pour the water from the bowl back into the BWB - probably would do that in PC too just to make sure water was high enough after simmering for a while.

As far as black PC, I guess it's just heavy oxidation - dark gray maybe but didn't really fade overnight as it dried.

I'm going to do another test run right now, with 180 degree(ish) water and boiling water in the jars, then do you think I'm ready to PC tomatoes?

Here is a link that might be useful: Ball guide to PCing

The black is most likely your well water reacting to the new pot. As long as your well water is potable (might not be a bad idea to have it tested occasionally), then don't worry about it.

My new pan has a 'fill line' for the water, without the jars, to fill to. The old one doesn't or I never noticed it. I always just filled it a bit, and amazing it matched almost perfectly to the line. Just living right, evidently.

Only did 5 quarts this time (Dutch oven doesn't hold 6 qts unless it's to the rim), started at setting 6 but it was taking a while to get any steam going so increased to 7.5 and left it there rather than fiddling with the settings after it got to pressure. Did 15 psig for 10 min. 1 jar hasn't sealed and with the discoloration I wasn't sure if I had siphoning, even ladled some water out and put in glass measure but maybe a slight pink tinge, dipped a white paper towel in and I can't see any pink on the towel though. After the jars have cooled (and maybe that one will seal) I will take the bands off and look at the HS - I used 1/2" this time, I think that one (and maybe another) might be slightly under.

Can't think of anything off hand that only gets pressure canned for 10 mins. except maybe some tomatoes and even most of them are 15 mins. But all foods normally done in the PC require much longer processing times so your practice curve needs to use much longer times for best results.

But are you ready to do tomatoes? Probably.

I know it's been mentioned here about taking hot jars from dishwasher - how hot is that exactly? I've always found it easier to heat them in the BWB as I was preheating that, keep them in there as I fill them 1 by 1. OK to do that with PC too (I think I'd fill the canner to 3" plus fill the jars to the neck and preheat, of course dump the jars into the sink before filling so there isn't excess water in the PC)?

That's your choice but it sure isn't required and it adds several steps to the process. The jars just need to be hot enough to avoid breaking. Lots of ways to have hot jars and there is no stipulated temp for jars. Dishwasher, in the sink filled with hot tap water, in the oven, etc. etc.

I didn't check NCHFP pressure canning steps before running the trial since I used the manual and the new spiral-bound USDA Guide I bought

Never use the manual. I think we say that here at least once a day. Don't know anything about an Ball guide but the NCHFP guide is most current, the most detailed, and the one consistently recommended.

And with the exception of raw packed meats where no liquid is added you are always doing hot pack with pressure canning because you fill the jars with boiling liquids. Raw pack refers to the food itself - cooked or uncooked - not the temp of the jars when ready to go into the canner.

Dave

Oh, I thought raw pack also referred to things like green beans covered with boiling water.

10 min at 15 psi is for Standard Tomato Sauce according to USDA Handbook (the new one 2011 edited by Linda Z), I just picked it as an example to try the 15 lb weight. I only used the manual to find out how much water to put in (it said 3 quarts but that didn't seem enough), I used the USDA handbook for everything else but you can see from the quote it didn't mention preheating anything, just "hot" water when you put in the jars, that could be anything from 100-120 out of the tap. When BWBing I like the jars to be close to the water temp (filling them does cool them a bit) to prevent thermal shock, but PCing is so new to me I didn't know if you could start with cooler (tap) water and jars just warm enough not to break when you filled them, b/c you're taking a while to build up steam, vent, and get up to pressure so the jars are heating slowly that whole time.

I gave the link to the Ball guide in that post.

I have a lot of tomatoes to do - I'll either have to blanch them in my bigger stockpot and fill my 18qt Nesco pan with ice water, or cook them into sauce in the Nesco b/c there is no way I'm going to get more than 5 qts of sauce at a time out of my Dutch oven. I'm glad I took the weekend to get used to the PC.

Am I correct in thinking that tomatoes are one of the lowest-risk items for a beginner to PC? I definitely would want more practice before doing low-acid veggies or meats. After tomatoes, what would be the next thing to try while working my way up to meat (and maybe next summer, clams)?

I am very grateful for all the help - I have been trying to read on NCHFP and the USDA book (didn't help in this case!), and old threads, I don't know that headspace for water (I did search) and "baby steps" with different foods (I haven;t searched - I remember 1 thread on broth for newbies) have been addressed already. I wish NCHFP had an online course on PCing - but advice from Dave is the next best thing!

Edit - I did go back and look at the online course, there is a section on Low-Acid Foods. I think 3 years ago I went through the tests but of course didn't do any hands-on since I didn't have the PC (or didn't want to use the old AA on my stove). I have re-registered and plan on taking the course again now that I have the PC to practice with.

This post was edited by ajsmama on Sun, Sep 29, 13 at 16:09