Indefinitely? No. For a reasonable amount of time? Yes, if you are using enough vinegar to pickle them with they can be stored for approx. 3-6 weeks in the fridge before listeria may begin to grow in them.

Have you looked at any of the approved recipes for both foods and compared your recipe to them?

Dilly Beans

Pickled Beets

Please don't tell me to invest in a canner and learn how to heat process!

Ok I won't tell you that but you did ask and that is the only way they are safe for shelf/pantry storage and it also increases the safe fridge storage time. But you don't have to invest in anything to process them. All it takes is any pot with a lid that is deep enough to cover the jars with an inch of water. You just put a folded towel in the bottom of the pot.

if you do them in pint jars most any of us has pot to do them in easy. If quarts any stockpot will work. Grandma did lots of things because she didn't know any better and she was lucky. Plus she had much stronger vinegar available than we have now. It is hard to justify keeping up a practice when there is now plenty of info about how unsafe it may be. :)

Dave

Hi Dave!

thank you so much for your informative response. I am using a recipe that calls for, per pint-

1 cup vinegar
1/2 cup water
1 tsp salt
1/4 cup sugar.
various spices- peppercorns, dill, onions, garlic.

I vary the amt of salt and sugar- less for beans, more for beets-. I have tried the 1 tbs of salt before and find it too salty.

I just pour this hot, over clean jars packed with my beans or beets.

I assume this is called cold processing or refridgerator pickling. The recipes you linked are hot processing, right?

I read several recipes online today stating that cold packed fridge pickles can last a few weeks- up to a week- some sites (a popular home canning site) said 3-6 months. So it is really confusing. I made 4 jars of dilly beans and added carrots this morning. I guess we better eat them up fast.

It looks like I need to just keep making what we will use-

If you have any other thoughts, they are welcome :-)

Here is a link that might be useful: recipe

one last note- since I am blanching my beans and carrots for 3 minutes before adding the boiled vinegar- does this make it any safer?

Thank you

Angie, my recipe for pickled beet brine is just equal amounts of vinegar and sugar. It's made up from my 2 grandmother's recipes. One liked sweeter and the other liked it more vinegary. My family likes it.

digdirt:
"... they can be stored for approx. 3-6 weeks in the fridge before listeria may begin to grow in them...."

Where does the listeria bacterium come from? How does it get into home grown vegetables and fruits to begin with?

(I've asked you this before, with no response)

I'm not digdirt, but I can respond to your question of "Where does the Listeria bacterium come from?"

Even back in the olden days when I was in college, we studied Listeria (and there are IIRC 8 or 9 different strains of it) in Food Science. It's everywhere. Some strains are in the soil, some in animals, some in plants, in stream water, etc.

You can't avoid touching, eating, ingesting, or contaminating your house or garden with the bacterium itself, but you CAN avoid giving it the perfect growing conditions. That's really what the "rules" about canning are for. Limiting the environments where bacteria, yeasts, molds, etc. can thrive and proliferate to potentially dangerous or even toxic levels.

And don't forget that bacteria are much more adaptable than we are. I would bet that the strains of Listeria or Clostridium or Botilinum that I studied 35 years ago have already adapted (mutated if you will) to be more resistant to things in their environment. I'm sure you've read about antibiotic-resistant "superbugs". They evolve just as we do, only much, much faster.

Hope that helps :-)

This post was edited by malna on Tue, Sep 10, 13 at 16:49

Where does the listeria bacterium come from? How does it get into home grown vegetables and fruits to begin with? (I've asked you this before, with no response)

Sorry I must have missed the request for info. Given the recent food recalls because of it there are many discussions here on GW about it not to mention all the info on the web. I linked a good basic coverage of it below and the CDC also has lots of info posted on it, how it works, and how it spreads.

Basic answer is soil, compost, decaying matter, and/or mammalian contact. So for home grown garden vegetables contact with it is easy.

It is also found in 10-15% of the human population as a saprophyte (type of fungus) as well as most other mammals that only needs proper conditions to turn pathogenic. It can survive on most any contact surface including the hands so in the kitchen - counters, utensils, containers, etc. It survives a wide range of temps and pH.

Dave

Here is a link that might be useful: All about Listeria Monocy.

maina:
"...Even back in the olden days when I was in college, we studied Listeria (and there are IIRC 8 or 9 different strains of it) in Food Science. It's everywhere. Some strains are in the soil, some in animals, some in plants, in stream water, etc.

You can't avoid touching, eating, ingesting, or contaminating your house or garden with the bacterium itself, but you CAN avoid giving it the perfect growing conditions. That's really what the "rules" about canning are for. Limiting the environments where bacteria, yeasts, molds, etc. can thrive and proliferate to potentially dangerous or even toxic levels...."

digdirt:
"Basic answer is soil, compost, decaying matter, and/or mammalian contact. So for home grown garden vegetables contact with it is easy."

So, do you agree that sound basic hygiene solves the problem? Or, are we all at great risk with anything short of pasteurization/sterilization? Google:

"Produce Washing 101: How to Clean Fruits and Veggies"

digdirt:
"....It is also found in 10-15% of the human population as a saprophyte (type of fungus) as well as most other mammals that only needs proper conditions to turn pathogenic...."

From the above link:
"...Studies suggest up to 10% of human gastrointestinal tracts may be colonized by L. monocytogenes..."

Isn't it amazing?:

.....The average person’s body contains about 100 trillion cells, but only maybe one in 10 is human.”

“...The human cells that form our skin, eyes, ears, brain and every other part of our bodies are far outnumbered by those from microbes" primarily bacteria but also viruses, fungi and a panoply of other microorganisms.....”

“....Researchers are amassing a growing body of evidence indicating that microbial ecosystems play crucial roles in keeping us healthy.”

“Moreover, scientists are becoming more convinced that modern trends" diet, antibiotics, obsession with cleanliness, Caesarean deliveries" are disrupting this delicate balance, contributing to some of the most perplexing ailments, including asthma, allergies, obesity, diabetes, autoimmune diseases, cancer and perhaps even autism.”

“.......Everywhere we look, microbes seem to be involved.””

Aside from my own experience, this is why I am convinced of the benefits derived by the symbiotic relationship and probiotics from consuming live, raw, unpasteurized.lacto fermented foods.

Here is a link that might be useful: Microbes may play crucial role in human health, researchers discovering

This post was edited by sidhartha0209 on Tue, Sep 10, 13 at 18:38

So, do you agree that sound basic hygiene solves the problem? Or, are we all at great risk with anything short of pasteurization/sterilization?

Ahh if only life was so simple, so either/or. But it isn't.

Of course sound basic hygiene helps control/reduce the problems. But solve it? No. The issue of what "sound basic hygiene" means to different people aside, re-contamination of anything with any bacteria is always possible, happens daily if not hourly. And the longer the time frame involved the greater the possibility of re-contamination. But that in no way means everything has to be sterilized (if it was even possible or applicable).

Between the two extremes of "Hey, I practice sound basic hygiene so no worries." and "It has to be sterilized/pasteurized to be safe to eat." is a whole big world of controls/practices that contribute to food safety.

Malna said it very well: You can't avoid touching, eating, ingesting, or contaminating your house or garden with the bacterium itself, but you CAN avoid giving it the perfect growing conditions. That's really what the "rules" about canning are for. Limiting the environments where bacteria, yeasts, molds, etc. can thrive and proliferate to potentially dangerous or even toxic levels.

Dave

"... re-contamination of anything with any bacteria is always possible..."

Yea, you can step outside your door on an overcast day and be struck by lightning too.

"... happens daily if not hourly..."

Do you have documentation/proof of this? Listeria has not been reported in fermented vegetables. In fact:

“…U.S. Department of Agriculture research service microbiologist Fred Breidt says properly fermented vegetables are actually safer than raw vegetables, which might have been exposed to pathogens like E. coli on the farm.

"With fermented products there is no safety concern. I can flat-out say that. The reason is the lactic acid bacteria that carry out the fermentation are the world's best killers of other bacteria," says Breidt, who works at a lab at North Carolina State University, Raleigh, where scientists have been studying fermented and other pickled foods since the 1930s.

Breidt adds that fermented vegetables, for which there are no documented cases of food-borne illness, are safer for novices to make than canned vegetables. Pressurized canning creates an anaerobic environment that increases the risk of deadly botulism, particularly with low-acid foods.”

Here is a link that might be useful: Listeria has not been reported in fermented vegetables

I can only express my abject apologies to the original poster who just wanted to ask about pickling beans and beets - somehow this post veered way off course. Hopefully, angiepangie got her questions answered to her satisfaction.

angiepangie:
"I have been making dilly beans and pickled beets by just blanching the beans, boiling the beets- and pouring over hot seasoned water and vinegar mixture. I keep them in the fridge and then are eaten within a couple of weeks or months. I've always heard that you are supposed to heat process things or you could get sick. However this is the method my grandmother uses and I've never gotten sick with it....."

"...Please don't tell me to invest in a canner and learn how to heat process! I don't have the money to do so, no matter how cheap- I only come across organic beans and beets etc every so often, and only make pickles a few times a year. my basic question here is, can I just pickle up all these beans by blanching, then hot vinegar/water/sugar/spices- and leave them in the fridge indefinately? I don't want to make my family sick."

Have you ever tried to lacto ferment your dilly beans? This was actually my first year at fermenting raw unpasteurized unblanched live Fortex beans and we like them nearly as much as we do the half sour/full sour cukes; I served them at a cookout last weekend and they were a huge favorite with most of the folks there. It's soooo easy, and absolutely no heating energy or special equipment is required; they will keep for months in the fridge, and they're not only 'safe' for your family, they are very nutritious for them also.

This is the basic recipe I followed:

"These pickled green beans make a tasty snack anytime of the day…they have a wonderful garlicky taste and are a great little “finger-food”. I like to grab a few straight from the jar and munch on them….betcha’ can’t eat just one

Recipe type: Lacto-fermentation, Appetizer, Condiment

Serves: 1 quart

Ingredients

¾ to 1 pound fresh green beans
1 large clove garlic,
thinly sliced pinch red pepper flakes
1 teaspoon dried dill OR 3 to 4 sprigs fresh dill
1½ Tablespoons unrefined sea salt
2 cups filtered water Instructions

Place half of the sliced garlic to a clean quart-sized mason jar, followed by the red pepper flakes and dill. Snap off the stem-end of green beans. Blanch green beans in boiling water for 2 minutes, then immediately transfer to a bowl of ice water until no longer hot. Drain the blanched beans well and pat dry with paper towels. Add green beans to your jar, stem-end down, packing them close together….it helps to lay the jar on its side at first. Fill the jar completely with the green beans, but do not pack them in too tight. Sprinkle remaining garlic slices on top of beans in jar. In a bowl, or large glass measuring cup, mix together the water and salt. Pour this mixture into your jar of beans to cover, being sure to leave 1-inch space from the top of the jar for expansion. (If the brine does not cover, simply make up another batch using the same ratio of salt to water.) Place lid (preferably air-lock lid) on the jar tightly. If using air-lock fill with water according to instructions. Allow to ferment (culture) for 3 days at room temperature, checking after day 2. When they are done, the beans will smell and taste “pickled”, but they should still be slightly crisp. Remove air-lock lid, if using, and replace with storage lid ��" transfer to cold storage."

Here is a link that might be useful: Lacto-fermented “Pickled” Green Beans

This post was edited by sidhartha0209 on Tue, Sep 10, 13 at 21:33

This is the last of the beans I'm fermenting this year, the rest out in the garden is for seed next year, I WILL ferment Fortex again, they make an outstanding pickle.

I would love to hear people's thoughts about Sidhartha's bean recipe. I am still so new to pickling!

Start another thread Nila please. Agree with malna that this one has been dragged way off course and I doubt the OP appreciates all these emails that aren't relevant to her question.

The OP asked about pickling, not fermenting. Two totally different processes.

Dave

digdirt:
" I doubt the OP appreciates all these emails that aren't relevant to her question."

Let the OP be the judge of that. She's after something that's safe for her family and doesn't require expensive canning equipment; LACTO FERMENTATION is something she may want to try.The major difference is that the acidification of the food comes from lactic acid generated by the fermentation process in lieu of vinegar, and, the food remains LIVE, NOT DEAD. And, it lends itself so readily to small batches; once you got it down, 15 minutes and you're done.

Angiepangie, it just occurred to me that I intentionally omitted this step from the recipe I gave:

"Blanch green beans in boiling water for 2 minutes,"

Most other lacto recipes for pickled green beans also do not call for blanching as in the recipe below.

Here is a link that might be useful: Lacto-fermented Green Beans