Hi judo and welcome to the forum.

First point would be that without any post-bottle processing of some kind, shelf storage would be very risky. No vacuum created means that air remains inside the container and the presence of air allows for pathogenic bacterial growth.

Second, wife is right that fresh herbs can lead to much faster spoiling. They raise the pH into the alkaline range where bacteria can quickly grow. How fast that happens would depend on the other ingredients and the acid base - how much vinegar and how much it is diluted relative to the amount of the rest of the ingredients.. Since you are primarily working with low-acid ingredients - peppers - the pH could rather quickly rise. Dried herbs don't have that problem as they rehydrate from the acidic liquids in the base.

I don't imagine there's anything particular about a mango that makes it spoil any faster than, say, a tomato. people can tomato sauces and they're good for at least a year.

Mangoes (and tomatoes) are both very close to the line. Tomatoes are borderline at 4.3-4.9, but mangoes cross the line at 4.8 - 6.0 so aren't considered interchangeable. And tomato sauce is only good for a year of storage if it is fully processed (canned). Otherwise it is 3 weeks max IF properly acidified.

Fridge storage life in general has undergone quite a bit of re-evaluation and research over the past several years, primarily because of listeria which can grow even in an acidic environment and in temperature extremes. So fridge shelf life recommendations have been shortened considerably over previous assumptions.

Now I need to add as a sort of a disclaimer: I know that many of the folks on the hot pepper forum don't like or agree with many of the restraints the approved guidelines would impose on them - the things we try to tell them they should re-evaluate before doing. So I appreciate you asking and just so you know - I'm workin' hard here to stay relatively neutral in answering your questions. :-)

There are several potential issues that I haven't mentioned that you may choose to investigate further, or not. Your choice.

Hope this helps.

Dave

please feel free to mention those issues. I want to do it right. don't remain neutral. if I'm sounding like an idiot, call me an idiot. just please be kind enough to tell me why I'm being an idiot. botulism scares the crap outta me. I will do everything I can to avoid it.

though for what it's worth, I boil the heck out of the bottles, and boil the heck outta the sauce, and the sauce is still at boiling temp when I pour it into the bottles (I even put it back on the heat in between bottle pours). when I open a bottle that has been processed this way, there's quite an audible hiss, and the level of the sauce in the bottle drops, sometimes by as much as an inch. so there's certainly a vacuum. and in my sauces there's usually more vinegar than anything else. the mango sauce I made last time did not have any vinegar, but did have a ton of lime juice (6oz lime juice out of 16 oz sauce). does that change anything? what further post bottling processing would you suggest?

again I'm looking for help, not to try to show off how much I think I know. I am nothing if not open minded. I am always willing to listen to suggestions for how to do things better. I am an industrial engineer by profession and a dedicated martial artist in my free time, so my life is one long quest for perfection in everything I do. and in both pursuits I've learned that perfection is hard to attain without accepting help from people with more experience.

to use a trite expression, I come here as an empty glass. please, fill me up with knowledge.

Welcome to the forum! Very refreshing to to see posts from someone willing to learn.

I'm linking to a hot sauce recipe from the National Center for Home Food Preservation. A reliable source for recipes that follow the most current guidelines.

Maybe you can compare your recipe(s) to theirs or try theirs to see if you like it. The varieties of peppers are interchangeable. Pickling spices may be omitted or other DRY herbs may be used. If you keep the tomato, pepper, vinegar, salt ratios the same and process per the instructions, you will have a shelf-stable product.

Good luck and we'd love to see pictures!
Deanna

Here is a link that might be useful: Approved Hot Sauce Recipe

Ok I'll try to explain what I meant. First, boiling doesn't kill botulism spores (or several other bacteria as well). Only pressure canning at 240 degrees+ for a prescribed amount of time can do that.

What boiling for more than 10 min. does destroy is the toxins produced by that bacteria and it is those toxins that are hazardous to us.

But those bacteria are also all around us and recontamination of foods is easy whenever it is exposed to air or our hands or utensils, etc. So if you boil your bottles and spoons and pots and sauces, those toxins are destroyed - for a time - but the bacteria are still there. Now if you put that boiled combination in the fridge the bacterial growth will be slowed. Not stopped, but slowed, for a period of time.

How long it will remain safe depends on how acidic the pH is. Acidic pH of 4.6 or less stops growth. But pH rises slowly over time too as more water is drawn out of the other ingredients and dilutes the vinegar or lime or lemon juice or citric acid.

So when working with low-acid or borderline vegetables such as tomatoes, peppers, onions, mangoes, herbs, etc. you are already above the pH danger line and you must lower that pH well into the acid zone for it to be safe to consume. Undiluted 5% vinegar (white is 2.4, cider is 3.1), bottled lime or lemon juice is 2.0-2.4 (fresh lime/lemon juice varies) or citric acid are used to drop that pH into the safety zone. Dilute any of them with water and you raise their pH.

How much of them is needed and how much, if any, they can be diluted, depends on the ratio of them to the rest of the ingredients. Tested and approved recipes tell you exactly how much of each ingredient to use to keep it safe. Made-up on your own recipes don't provide you with that info. It is guess work usually based on taste, not safety.

Now if you take that well boiled recipe in a boiled bottle and put it in the fridge. it will be safe for a period of time. But there is still bacteria in the bottle and more is added everytime you open, use, set the bottle out on the counter, etc. As the vinegar or whatever acid you used dilutes the safety declines and that bacteria begins to grow and produce toxins.

So how do we know when it has crossed the line and is now unsafe? In some cases odor and discoloration. In some mold may begin to grow on the surface. But in others - especially botulism - there are no signs. So what we are left with is the recommended max storage times - 3 weeks.

Now if you take that same boiled sauce in its boiled and capped bottle and you process it in a boiling water bath for a defined period of time you force all the air out of the jar and create a vacuum. Still got the bacteria but now not only do you have the acid protection but the vacuum protection as well. You can store it on a shelf for a couple years or more.

Do the same thing with it in a pressure canner for a defined period of time and now you have killed most all of the bacteria and have both the acidic pH and the vacuum to protect you. You can store it on the shelf for forever in theory but a good 5 years anyway.

Last option is to make and freeze it. this gives you lots of ingredient room to experiment with and freezer life is a good year anyway, maybe 2. But then when thawed and put in the fridge you are back to the 3 week limit.

So what it boils down to in a nutshell is other than with freezing, using approved and tested recipes (and there are several) to make your hot sauces and then processing them as required per the recipe for max long term storage and safety. But it costs you experimentation room with your own recipes. You choose.

To further complicate this unfortunately there is the difference between what are called quick-pack, aka pickled, aka vinegar based sauces - all of the above - and fermented sauces. Fermented sauces are a whole other ballgame - different methods and different storage and/or processing recommendations.

Is this of any help?

Dave

Here is a link that might be useful: Lots of previous discussions here about making hot sauces

I do not understand some of the acidity requirement:

1) when you say, eg, pH of 4.5, is it that the same scale as used in soil test, aquarium test ?

2) lets say, household vinegar is 5% acetic acid, lemon/lime is 2.5 % citric acid, so forth. Now suppose I want to pickle some some sweet peppers, with ZERO acidity and 60% water content. How much vinegar(5% or its equivalent lemon juice) do I have to have for 2 lbs of the said pepper?

I just want to get a ball park number and idea.

3) How about the amount of salt? Does it play any role in pickling, as preservative ?

Thanks.

It is the same acid-alkaline scale but applied very differently in home food preservation because of the anaerobic environment created by canning and the need to prevent the growth of pathogenic bacteria in that anaerobic environment.

Ensuring Safe Canned Foods

Peppers have a pH of 4.65-5.93 depending on variety and growing conditions so they are not "ZERO acidity" but they are low acid.

How to pickle sweet peppers

USDA pH of Foods

Dave

Peppers have a pH of 4.65-5.93 depending on variety and growing conditions so they are not "ZERO acidity" but they are low acid.
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Thanks Dave,

The pepper pickling was just an example. My point was/is how to get a ball park figure on acidification issue. Take a vegetable with ZERO acidity. How do you can it ? My question is about the FINAL acidity(pH) and how to get it by , say, 5% household vinegar.. Maybe this is a chemistry question, not canning !

What is the role of salt, there ? does it play a role as preservative or it is there just for other purposes?

Salt only plays a preservative role in fermentation. Otherwise it is just a flavoring agent.

My point was/is how to get a ball park figure on acidification issue.

You can't without all the education in food science and the equipment to measure the pH accurately. Then you'd have to acidify it until the pH consistently reads 4.6 (some sources recommend 4.4 as the best pH) or lower. Then expose it to both cold and heat extremes for various lengths of time and re-test the pH. Then expose it to various types of storage conditions and then re-test the pH. Then expose it to various lengths of shelf storage and then re-test the pH.

Then preserve it in some fashion that insures the pH doesn't rise into the unsafe range.

There are foods that have zero acidity but few vegetables. The most alkaline are things like coconut, soy, seafoods, etc. Cabbage, cauliflower, kale, spinach, and peas are the closest vegetables to neutral 7.

But then there is no need to do all the testing as all the work has already been done for us by USDA labs and many other sources. As a result there are specific instructions provided for most any vegetable. It is also the foundation principle for why you cannot safely can your own made up recipes.

Plus acidity (pickling) is only one method of preserving. Most vegetables are preserved by pressure canning or freezing, not by acidification (pickling), fermentation (salt), or dehydration. But the tested and approved methods for all 5 methods are readily available.

You can read through all the NCHFP, FDA, and USDA publications available for all the details on the mechanics of the testing processes.

Dave

PS: apologies to the OP for the thread hijacking

Here is a link that might be useful: Food Preservation Publication Sources

thanks guys, sorry for the late response, I had family in town which made internet usage difficult. there's a lot of good info here, it'll take me a little bit to digest it all, but I've already learned a lot.

I was under the impression that botulism couldn't go from the spore state to the vegetative (dangerous) state unless it was in anoxic conditions, which was why you leave headroom in the bottles, instead of filling them entirely. was I mistaken?

and compared to the hot sauce recipe provided by dgkrich, mine have plenty of vinegar (either white vinegar or white wine vinegar), but substantially less tomato.

and for what it's worth, in the hot pepper forum I hijack threads left and right, so no need for apologies there, especially when there's still plenty of useful information for me in there.

thanks again everyone. I've learned a lot here. I will be buying a pH test kit today, and using that as a guideline for future sauces.

also, does it change anything that most of the peppers I grow and use are habanero-level or hotter? in fact many are ghost pepper level or hotter. I've heard capsaicin helps to inhibit bacteria growth. does this change anything?

I'm going to post some recipes. please feel free to comment on how I can improve them to make them more shelf stable.

Fiery mango chutney
2 "brain strain" 7pot pepper (ultra hot pepper, in the 1mil scoville range)
2 sorta green mangoes
6oz lime juice
10 cloves of garlic
3 dried leaves of "cuban oregano"
2 dried leaves culantro (aka sawtooth herb)
1 tbsp salt

how much vinegar would this need to be safe to bottle if the goal is more than a few weeks shelf life in a cool dry place?
green mangoes are extremely sour. how could these be such a high pH?

burning brain sauce
2 brain strain peppers
2 red bell peppers
4 tbsp of tomato paste,
6 cloves garlic (or is dried garlic better to use?)
6oz lime juice,
8oz white vinegar,
1/2 tsp brown sugar,
1 tsp salt,
1/8tsp Badia 'sazon tropicale' seasoning

that one seems pretty safe. it tastes quite acidic, but I'll know more when I get a pH tester.

roasted ghost sauce 32oz unboiled
6 ghost peppers, roasted over applewood chunks
1 unroasted ghost pepper
4 roasted crunch sweet red peppers (seeds removed)
6 tabasco peppers
2 tbsp garlic (7 cloves)
3 tbsp tomato paste
3 cups white vinegar
1 cup distilled water
2 tsp salt
1/2tsp black pepper
1 leaf dried culantro (sawtooth herb)
5 tbsp shredded carrot (1 medium carrot)
1 tsp brown sugar

I try to use a lot of vinegar in the hopes that it'll help with shelf life. unfortunately vinegar reacts with capsaicin and makes the sauce less hot. if I don't have to use as much vinegar, my sauce would be much better. I made 30oz sauce with 11 habanero peppers. the day I made it, it was almost too hot to eat. now it's barely hot at all, and that makes me a sad gardener.

that one seems pretty safe. it tastes quite acidic, but I'll know more when I get a pH tester.

*******************************************************
That is what I was trying to say all along:
HOW CAN WE GET A BALL PARK FIGURE ON THE pH ISSUE ? 4,4 ? fine. What if I make it 4.2? to be even safer.

No doubt that food safety should be a concern to all of us. But we do take risk in life(calculated ones) as we walk, drive, etc.
Then those BAD GUY bacteria, just following us like a ghost everywhere? Maybe they are. But IMO so are lightening and thunder storms, micro waves, waves from our cell phones, smug in the air.....

Seysonn - As I Said, you can make it whatever you want as long as it is less than 4.6 (the recommended pH cut-off line). Lower pH is safer like 4.4, higher pH is potentially unsafe like 4.8. But remember that pH will rise over time.

____________

Judo - unfortunately sour/sharp flavor doesn't always correlate with food pH. It would be really handy if it did but mangoes are a good example. While green, unripe mangoes have a more acidic pH than ripe ones it still isn't acidic enough.

Since the Firey Mango sauce already has lime juice in it it may be fine as is. If not then I'd just use more lime juice as needed to get it down to the 4.6 or lower. Bottled lime juice (rather than fresh) is more acidic than vinegar. How much you'd need to add I can't say, only the pH testing will answer that. Another alternative if you didn't want it more soupy is to use citric acid - lowers acidity with altering consistency or taste.

The Burning Brain also sounds pretty safe as is but only testing will tell for sure.

The Roasted Ghost might be a bit more borderline simply because it has so much more peppers but it still has more vinegar in it than the minimum recommended amount. Cut the water and i don't see any problems.

Anything packed in straight, undiluted vinegar, bottled lime juice, or bottled lemon juice is generally considered safe.

Dave

I've been reading up on "approved" hot sauce recipes. many of them call for substantially more tomato than pepper. is there a reason for this? it doesn't seem like any of them would be near hot enough for my tastes, even using really hot peppers.

also, all of my sauces are stored in hot sauce bottles (woozy bottles), and my intention is to store at room temp before opening. if I bottle them boiling hot, in boiling hot bottles, would the suggested next steps simply be putting on the caps and tossing them into boiling water for 10-15 min?

can anyone suggest a good pH meter for a broke college student like me, with a budget in the $20 range? can I just use test strips? I cannot stress enough just how poor I actually am.

I've been reading up on "approved" hot sauce recipes. many of them call for substantially more tomato than pepper. is there a reason for this?

Taste preference in part I think, the popularity of tomato based sauces. But also because tomatoes are much more acidic than peppers so using tomatoes adds an element of safety and shelf life too. Not to mention that many gardeners grow tons more tomatoes than they do peppers. :)

Now there might be a problem. None of them are tested for canning as far as I know so I don't know how they (the lids especially) will hold up to the BWB processing. I guess all you can do is try a couple and see.

The way the 2 piece canning lids work is as the liquid inside the jar gets hot and expands the air inside is forced out and burps out of the lid and then as it cools the lid is sucked back down to create the vacuum inside the jar. Your bottles and lids probably won't work that way.

Try a couple of your bottles just colored water in them and with the lid just screwed on finger tight. Then when you remove them from the pot see if the lid is more loose than when it went in. I think that would mean the air was burped out of the bottles. But keep in mind this is just guess work on my part, not tested.

I've been reading up on "approved" hot sauce recipes. many of them call for substantially more tomato than pepper. is there a reason for this? it doesn't seem like any of them would be near hot enough for my tastes, even using really hot peppers.
also, all of my sauces are stored in hot sauce bottles (woozy bottles), and my intention is to store at room temp before opening. if I bottle them boiling hot, in boiling hot bottles, would the suggested next steps simply be putting on the caps and tossing them into boiling water for 10-15 min?

can anyone suggest a good pH meter for a broke college student like me, with a budget in the $20 range? can I just use test strips?

A meter for $20 won't be worth anything. Good ones cost much more. Personally I'd use food grade litmus test paper. It isn't recommended for using on home processed foods because it can give false readings but then so can meters. The litmus test paper (available online and pharmacies) is approved by the FDA for food testing just not by USDA/NCHFP so do it with great care.

I haven't tried using it in many years but if i got a reading of say 4.4 or lower i wouldn't have any concerns with eating it. JMO

Dave

Thanks Dave,

What you said, give me a guide line. I don't do much canning/jarring , maybe some pickling and hot souce.

Just for my curiosity, I will check the pH of my pickles(in frige) to see. I don't have my pH meter handy now.
I will report the results later.

BTW: I love vinegar. I even keep my stomach acidic(LOL). I disinfect my cutting boards with it too.

I make my hot sauce with canned tomatoes, sauce,garlic, cumin and cilantro. No vinegar. I’m trying to determine the ph level of my sauce. Do I need to purchase a ph level meter? Thnx!