I don't know of any studies that prove heirloom tomatoes are more or less acidic than others. Given the hundreds of heirlooms, that's quite a generalization. It is true acidity can vary from variety to variety, and there are some few varieties which have been identified as low-acid, but some are hybrids, not heirlooms.

Tomatoes generally are borderline acidity and growing conditions, degree of ripeness, condition of the vines, exposure to sunlight also affect acidity (or reduce acidity), so variety is the least of it.

Canning recipes are quite precise. It's a science, unlike the art of cooking or baking. So you really do need a specific recipe with definite measurements to be sure it's "cannable" either with boiling water bath or pressure canning.

I'm providing a link to a National Center for Home Food Preservation abstract having to do with safe acidification of home canned salsas which does provide a safe ratio of bottled lemon juice to low-acid product in salsas.

Actually, bottled lemon (or lime) juice is more acidic than vinegar and a better choice. Fresh juice is not recommended in canning (except jams and jellies) because the acidity isn't standardized.

As you can see, things get kind of complicated in the world of canning. But with salsas in particular it's critical to be careful because they're loaded with low-acid ingredients. For that reason, it's considered a high-risk product.

Good luck. Let us know if you have additional questions.

Carol

Here is a link that might be useful: Studies on Safe Acidification of Salsa for Home Boiling Water Canning

I can only reiterate Carol's points that salsa, of all the home canned products, is considered one of the most risky both because of the low-acid ingredients but also because it is eaten fresh from the jar with no further cooking. Botulism thus becomes a viable treat.

Therefore the use of an approved, tested recipe is required if you wish to can it and do so safely, even if you pressure can it.

If you could post the recipes giving as close to specific amounts as possible we would be happy to review it for you and/or make suggestions that would make it safe.

Otherwise, I strongly encourage you to consider freezing your personal recipe rather than trying to can it.

Dave

All tomatos can vary in their acidity, be it hybrids, plums, beefsteaks, big, small cherry, grape and heirloom, and any others. The use of lemon or lime juice just adds a bit of acid, and can also come from citric, or even cider vinegar. There are many recipes out there and some may not be safe enough due to the addition of more low acid vegetables or a very thick density. Suffice to say, most valid recipes here are as safe as they can be as to home canning, and should not be modified too much, or to add more of one low acid item, and less of another higher acid item. Sometimes even dried peppers and onions can be added, as they usually do not effect the total acidity as they soak up that same acidic liquid.

Also, in addition to the other advice I bookmarked this link from an old thread where someone listed the acidity of quite a few tomatoes. I'm sure the numbers can vary from what's listed but maybe you might find some use of it.

Here is a link that might be useful: Tomatoes & Acidity

The actual pH can vary from year to year, the watering, and the weather, as well as if fertilizers used and how much. Tomato sizes also vary greatly and the amount of ripeing time. Given all these factors, will make for a vast difference in acidity.

First -- thanks to everyone. And that includes you Carol. I really do appreciate it. I feel like I'm making the wrong move in trying to can my own salsa -- but I'm going ahead with it anyway and I hope I just don't screw it up.

I do appreciate the advice on the use of bottled lemon and lime juices as opposed to freshly squeezed juices of vinegar. That's good for us -- as we tend to save our fresh citrus for Heirloom Tomato Martinis. ;) I'll have to post that recipe for you someday. It's also posted up on the blog if you want to see it.

I do have a few other questions however.

1. I was looking around for any cooking instrument that measures the pH of things like a salsa -- and I can't find anything like that anywhere. I tried searching pH tester, then pH meter, but didn't see anything that was specifically for cooking (lots of soil pH testers).

2. Carol's link was incredible -- but the measurement amounts are mostly metric. And like most Americans, I didn't get beyond learning what a two-liter bottle was. I think -- but may be mistaken -- that the conversion rates call for one-quarter cup lemon juice for every quart of salsa. I can do that.

Finally, I know a lot of you are urging me to go with a time tested and true recipe. But -- I tell you -- this is a really GREAT salsa recipe. I mean -- it's that good. And I've spent years perfecting this. After 18-years of Fresno, and spending time in countless kitchens of Mexican families, fresh over the border, I've perfected a recipe that is really good. No -- it's better than good. I've just got to try this.

By the way, can you tell/smell when a canned product has gone bad and it's not safe to eat?

Bill

Here is a link that might be useful: Sacramento Gardening Blog

By the way, can you tell/smell when a canned product has gone bad and it's not safe to eat?

No. Unfortunately botulism has no taste or odor.

Apparently freezing this doesn't appeal to you for some reason?

Litmus paper is what is used to test pH of canned food products. It used to be approved - years back - but it no longer is because of inconsistent results.

Bill - there are many really really good cooking recipes in this world that cannot be safely canned. ;) We all have GREAT ones we love, family heirlooms as well as ones we have perfected on our own. But they simply cannot be home canned. Botulism and the other possible contaminants aren't something to fool with. The risk is just to ...fatal.

Your choice of course just so long as you understand that you do so at your own risk and that you risk any others you may share the salsa with.

Dave

There have been previous threads on pH meters, pros and cons and appropriate use with products that are a mixture of solids and liquid. Unfortunately, it looks as if those have dropped off.

Some of us do own pH meters. Cole-Parmer makes some good ones.

However, if your main interest is in finding a safe way to process your salsa recipe and doesn't extend to other foods, for the same amount of money you could make your salsa (document amounts of each ingredient - I'd recommend by weight for greatest accuracy) and have it tested by a lab.

If your salsa comes in at less than 4.6 pH it can be safely water bathed. (Density of the salsa plays a role also.)

Carol

Dave and Carol,

My hope is you'll look at this thread just one more time. After reading through multiple threads, and seeing probably 100 references to "Annie's Salsa," I found it and I've pasted it below.

However -- I do have one question. And you've probably answered this a zillion or so times -- but I'll ask it again.

Can I substitute lemon juice for the vinegar (this is a tried and true canning recipe by the way Dave)? And since lemon juice is more acidic than vinegar, should I cut the amount?

ANNIES SALSA
8 cups tomatoes, peeled, chopped and drained
2 1/2 cups chopped onion
1 1/2 cups chopped green pepper
3 Â 5 chopped jalapenos
6 cloves minced garlic
2 tsp cumin
2 tsp pepper
1/8 cup canning salt
¼ cup chopped fresh cilantro
1/3 cup sugar
1 cup vinegar (for BWB or 1/3 cup vinegar for PC)
16 oz. tomato sauce
16 oz tomato paste
Mix all ingredients, bring to a boil, boil 10 minutes. Pour into hot jars, process at 10 lbs of pressure for 30 minutes for pints. Or BWB 15 minutes.
Makes 6 pints

Good luck and happy canning. I get a lot of compliments on this recipe, and one of the local attorneys actually paid me $10 a pint for the last jar a couple of years ago (He NEEDED it for a Super Bowl party). Fine by me, I wish I had made more!! Annie"

Here is a site that has these. They alsoo call them titration testers.

http://www.beer-wine.com/product.asp?sectionID=1&CategoryID=13&productID=1069

The source below even offers a test kit for lactic acid. You also need to know what a safe level should be.

Yes, Annie's Salsa is both a tested (she had it done) and approved recipe. And made by many with rave results. ;) And yes you can sub either bottled lemon juice or bottled lime juice - both have been done - for the vinegar. But we use the same amount as if using the vinegar.

Dave

PS: You'll find many discussions here on this recipe and approved substitutions for it.

Bill, I'm guessing your recipe is a secret since you haven't posted it yet. But since it's so good that you want to be able to share it with others, why not start with a tested recipe and make safe substitutions to approximate your own recipe? For example, you can swap around the low-acid ingredients (onions and peppers) as long as you don't exceed the total amount. I think the jury's still out on increasing the cilantro. But you can add dried herbs and spices. I believe Annie has said you can leave out the tomato sauce and paste, and I know you can leave out, reduce, or even increase the sugar and salt.

I take other eating risks involving raw eggs, outdated food, and undercooked meat. But I would never do anything with a serious risk of botulism. It's a killer and it doesn't care if you're young and healthy.

Melissa

Hello Gang,

Salsa canning success!!! The wife and I married Annie's Salsa recipe to our own -- and the results are LIP SMACKING fabulous.

We canned 13-pints of the Roasted Garlic and Heirloom Tomato salsa last Saturday night -- and friends and neighbors have already pried three jars out of our hands!

Melissa -- I'm more than happy to share this recipe -- and I'd LOVE to post some photos up on this thread -- but can't find the "post photo" link!

Oh well -- I have posted photos on the blog -- WITH the recipe -- below. And I've also included the recipe below.

I followed most of Annie's recipe to the letter -- including the part about lemon juice. I did not mess with the acid measurements. However, I did decrease a few things, omitted the sugar, plus bumped a few other ingredients up.

I will also have at least one jar tested by the Master Food Preserving program at UC Davis -- just to make SURE. I'm not going to mess around with botulism.

Preparation is key for this salsa I've found. The actual canning process was a SNAP!!!

Click the link below for photos and a writeup!

And now.....without further delay....

Roasted Garlic and Heirloom Tomato Salsa

8 cups processed heirloom tomatoes
1 1/2 cups chopped onion
1 1/2 cups chopped peppers (green, red, yellow, anything from the garden works) (half roasted, half fresh)
3 5 chopped Habanero peppers or jalapenos
2 heads garlic
3 tsp cumin
3 tsp pepper
1 tablespoon liquid smoke
1/8 cup canning salt
¼ cup chopped fresh cilantro
1 cup lemon juice (for BWB or 1/3 cup vinegar for PC)
16 oz. tomato sauce
8 oz tomato paste

Cut tops off heads of garlic revealing tops of garlic inside. Drizzle with olive oil and roast at 400 degrees for one hour. Remove cover after roasting and allow garlic to cool, as you will need to handle it.

Roast 10-12 green, red or yellow peppers on grill until skins are browned on each side. You may use a combination of peppers from the garden -- whatever you have or like. Place roasted peppers in paper shopping bag after roasting and close tightly. Allow peppers to cool for 30 minutes. This will result in 3/4 cup of peppers.

Boil tomatoes to remove skin or process tomatoes to remove skins and seed. Process well in a food processor -- add tomatoes to cooking pot.

Squeeze garlic into cooking pot, peel seed and process roasted peppers and add to pot -- add remain fresh and hot peppers and all other ingredients. Bring to a boil -- boil for ten minutes.

Process jars in a Boiling Water Bath (BWB) for ten minutes -- drain. Pour salsa into hot jars and process at 10 lbs of pressure for 30 minutes for pints. Or BWB 15 minutes. Makes 6 1/2 pints.

Bill, I originally posted the pH chart on one of those links. What varieties of heirloom tomatoes have you used for your salsa?

I grow about 75-100 varieties each year, it's pretty hard to choose sometimes which to grow, but have grown 300-400 varieties of tomatoes so far... 75-100 peppers, 24 different garlics.

I'm just curious which varieties you have used and liked for your salsa recipe; I personally mix up all varieties & colors.

I will have to let other more knowledgable here comment on the safety of the recipe as well as if the olive oil used for the garlic affects anything.

Mark
('matermark)

Mark,

Four cups of the tomato sauce came from a mixture of cherry tomatoes -- Sungold and Black Cherry.

The 12 other cups came from a mixture of heirlooms and at least one hybrid. The mixture included Celebrity and Campbell's 1327 (Red), Lemon Boy (yellow), Green Zebra (greenish-yellow), Rainbow Beefsteak (purple), Pruden's Purple (duh), and one Pineapple Beefsteak.

The acidity in those tomatoes does vary quite a bit -- but as I mentioned -- I believe we're safe with the two full cups of processed lemon juice.

However -- I'm going to take the next step and have this tested.

I believe I saw that pH chart. It was very helpful.

billbird,

Good idea to have it tested. Generally, olive oil (or any fat) is avoided in home canning recipes, because it can provide pockets of environment where botulism can grow even within a fairly acidic liquid. There are a few approved, tested recipes that include small amounts of oil, and it's considered OK to use a half-teaspoon of butter to keep one's jam from foaming, so if you used only a small drizzle of olive oil to roast your garlic I personally would feel happy to eat your salsa. But I thought you should know it's considered a potentially risky ingredient.

Botulism is rare; getting it from home canning is rarer (most cases come from poorly prepared restaurant food); and getting it from a vegetable home-canned good rarer still (most home canning cases relate to meat or fish). Still, as has been said, it's nothing to play around with, because if you DO get it, it's often fatal.

I grow a lot of heirloom tomatoes, too, and use them in all my tomato canning. Yum!

It seems to me like a lot of the ones with "purple" in the name actually turn out pink, go figure! (The ones with "black" in the name often look purple to me, on the other hand!) I haven't grown Prudens, though. I do love Lemon Boy (one of the few hybrids I grow)---love yellow veggies generally. This year my Plum Lemons and Yellow Bells have done especially well.

Good luck with your salsa and your tomato garden!

Cheers,

Zabby

Hi billbird,

That recipe looks really tasty and I understand your excitement about it, but I notice that you increased the amount of garlic from 6 cloves to two heads of garlic. Garlic is a low acid ingredient and cannot be safely increased in a recipe for canning. The processing time might not be long enough anymore to kill botulism. I talked to my Penn State food extension agent today about adjusting recipes (for one of my own). She told me it was fine to decrease low acid ingredients in a tested recipe, but not to increase or exchange low acid ingredients (garlic, peppers, onions, fresh herbs, etc). She said that Penn State could test a recipe for me. You might want to see if Davis will do the same. But until it is tested, I would not risk my health by canning this recipe. And I completely understand how absolutely frustrating that is. As I scientist, I keep thinking there must be a set rule of how many low acid ingredients vs vinegar added/pH level that makes something OK. I may have to go back to school for food science :).

In the mean time, freeze that delicious recipe.

Bellatrix

Yes, he increased the garlic from 6 cloves to 2 heads and decreased the onion by 1 cup. Depending on the kind of garlic you use, 2 heads could just be slightly more than 6 cloves! My Music garlic often produces heads with 4 big cloves. California white garlic (the kind you usually find in groceries) has much smaller cloves and many more to a head. This is why I like those recipes that use weight. Anyway, I thought I had read on here that you COULD swap like amounts of onions, garlic, and peppers so long as you ended up with the same total amount. Sounds like that's not so.

Anyway, I thought I had read on here that you COULD swap like amounts of onions, garlic, and peppers so long as you ended up with the same total amount. Sounds like that's not so.

Not sure where you read that but please keep in mind that comments like that, when made, are generally only for the recipe under discussion at the time. This doesn't mean that it can be applied to any recipe.

Garlic is always considered a high risk item because it is one of the most common sources of botulism (along with corn, green beans, corn syrup, and other root vegetables) and because it contains natural oils that insulate any botulism spores from the heat.

In this case Bella has a good point - that may well be a SUBSTANTIAL increase in garlic. While the pre-roasting MAY have been of some benefit and the reduction in onions MAY have helped keep the pH in line, there is no way of knowing for sure without professional testing.

Dave

Thanks, Dave and Bellatrix! See, it's good that I keep reading this forum. Helps keep me from poisoning my family. :) I'll look forward to seeing the results of any testing completed on this recipe. As much as I love Annie's Salsa (and I do!), it's always nice to have different variations!

I to grow Music garlic and they are huge cloves. If pickling whole cloves I use full strength 5% vinegar. If its for adding to a sauce, its run through a garlic press instead, which really mashes it up quite fine.

Soon, the Music garlic will be planted. I dig a trench and add bone meal to it before planting the seperated cloves. Also, I use a good fertlizer from Dixondale for them. This past summer I have huge bulbs, bigger than most store bought, and slightly smaller than the milder elephant garlic. A couple of the Music actually have whole round cloves as a single one too, kind of looked like a white onion, but were garlic. A similar type single bulb shaped garlic was selling at a local supermarket a whole back. Wish I had found more info on them, but suspect they are grown from a scape that may produce seeds. I cut my scapes off before they get too tall. They too are pickled.

it's always nice to have different variations!

mom2wildboys - variations in cooking recipes are a wonderful thing, agreed, and not discouraged at all. But home canning requires a very different mind set and that is something that many have trouble adapting to. ;)

As Linda Lou has said before, lesson number 1 in a canning class is that trying to can your own recipes isn't safe. In canning, "variations" from approved and tested recipes can quickly get you into deep kimche (spelled danger).

NCHFP provides numerous articles on the many variations that are NOT allowed and there are very few "allowed" variations as Bella mentioned above. I have linked one on salsas below but there are many others. So if you are a variations-oriented home canner and find you can't seem to give up that mind set, it will pay to review the many prohibitions. ;)

Dave

Bill, Bellatrix has made a great point. You asked about acidity and got good information, but then you changed the salsa in a different way: oil. Oil is not approved for home canning except in specific recipes that should not be altered at all (marinated peppers, for example). Besides the added olive oil, while it is usually ok to swap the onions and peppers around a bit, garlic contains more oil and less water than those, so changing it has a much greater affect on safety. Cilantro is another ingredient that I wouldn't increase, because I haven't heard a convincing argument that it's ok.

I agree that I would freeze this version.

Melissa

Cilantro even if added fresh, will quickly dissipate once in sealed jars. You could fill half jar full of cilantro leaves and then run the jar through the canner. Once complete, it will be wilted, and have nearly no taste or smell left. Its one of those very volitile herbs that are just better to use as fresh. No oils, not even in marinated canning. I have yet to see an oil being used in any home canning recipe.

ken, the are approved recipes for marinated peppers that include oil. See, for example, the hot peppers in oil at

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/PUBS/FOODNUT/09314.html

Ellie Topp's SMALL BATCH PRESERVING also includes a few recipes that use small amounts of oil, sucn as the Madras Pickled Eggplant. She has impeccable credentials.

And almost all jam recipes allow for a small amount of butter to reduce foaming.

Zabby

I can see a tiny bit of butter in a jam or jelly just for use as a defoaming agent, but in larger quantites like you see in commercialy jarred products, I would be afraid to even try it. Even for that, the link you provided said that a small amount of oil is OK too, like a teaspoon or two. If I were to use an oil, I would try to chose one that will remain stable as long as possible and not go rancid quickly. Love the explaination of the blue/green garlic color too, but it doesn't seem to indicate that whole cloves couldn't be used.. Some of the info seems a bit vague at the colostate site..

Well,

Quite frankly -- I am surprised by some of these responses. But I know that many of you are choosing to "play it safe rather than sorry" since "sorry" in this case can mean DEATH. I suppose I would do the same.

First -- to clear up some confusion here -- there is no actual oil added to this recipe. The heads of garlic do get drizzled with a bit -- but trust me when I tell you they're not "dunked" nor are they "slathered."

Secondly -- have any of you folks ever roasted a bell pepper before? On a grill? Do you know what happens to said pepper when you roast it on a grill? They get oily. Real oily. That's natural oil released by the pepper during the roasting process. Bell peppers -- if you did not know -- are very HIGH in oil content.

But -- this point will be moot -- and soon. As this product is already been sent to a lab and I will hopefully have results of said testing in another week to ten days. Some of the things that will be tested are:

1. pH level
2. pH safety (I have no idea what that means)
3. Presence of bacteria agents
4. Types of agents

I am not a scientist by any stretch of the imagination, just a former broadcast journalist (big mouth) with a passion for heirloom tomatoes and roasted garlic and heirloom tomato salsa.

But, I am assured by the fine folks at the Master Food Preservation Program that these tests will show whether I've canned a mean jar of salsa -- or a really good mouse killer.

I'm kidding about the mice by the way. The initial review of the ingredients used in this recipe did not set off any alarm bells with the Master Food Preservers who looked at it -- certainly not drizzling garlic heads with olive oil. In fact, I got high marks for roasting the garlic to begin with -- and half the peppers -- for that does tend to kill most forms of bacteria.

I'll let you know when the results are in. In the meantime, feel free to look at pictures from the process at the link below.

Great! I hope the results are in before I run out of tomatoes. :)

Yes, Bill we do know that peppers are oily. That's one reason why much of the oil is blotted/removed after roasting and why the amounts of them are restricted, and why they have to be pressure canned. BWB isn't an option unless pickled. But they also contain a large amount of water. Something garlic doesn't have.

But the primary concern is all the extra garlic and the amount of natural oils it contains (less so, the olive oil drizzle) because garlic has a much higher incidence of botulism spores than peppers. Per CDC garlic cloves consistently test out as one of the 5 most risky foods for botulism. Can you give a good estimate how many cloves of garlic were added?

And yes, we do prefer to "play it safe" especially so when safer options are readily available. As said all along, there is no reason why your recipe cannot be frozen. It is the canning of it, the long-term shelf storage, and the fresh eating of that long-stored salsa that is in question.

Looking forward to the test results Bill. I hope it passes. ;)

Dave

Bill, my thinking was that their test won't fully determine the safety of your product. I think your salsa will pass the pH test, though of course it's better to test and know for sure. My concern was the oil that could provide a safe place for botulism spores. I wonder how sensitive their bacterial agents test is...could it find just a few C. botulinum in spore form? They could hide out and later germinate back into active bacteria, contaminating the sealed jars long after the test is done.

Again, I wasn't questioning the acidity. I was pointing out that acidity is not the whole story when it comes to canning, and now I'm wondering whether the tests can conclusively prove that the recipe will be safe over many batches. If there were a formula for determining whether a recipe is safe, we wouldn't need a discussion forum.

Melissa

P.S. Our very own Ann (prairie_love) is a microbiologist and explained spores in the following way on the thread linked below. Check the original thread for more detail.

quoting Ann:

The spores are produced by the bacteria when they are in conditions where they cannot grow. The spores are an "alternative life form" for the bacteria - a way for the bacteria to go into a dormant state that is resistant to many environmental assaults.

The spores are incredibly resistant to a large number of conditions. Viable spores have been recovered from ceramic pots that are thousands of years old. For a very interesting story about another closely related spore, Bacillus anthracis, causative agent of anthrax, do a web search for "Gruinard Island".

I'm no canning or safety expert but I would think if the garlic was reduced, or maybe if the oil wasn't used to roast it, that would be better? He is also using 1 cup less of the onions/peppers too I think.

Melva, Annie's salsa is frequently referred to as being tested and safe. I wonder if/how whatever testing is done on this recipe would differ from the testing done for the original Annie's salsa recipe. If we accept the testing of Annie's recipe as valid, wouldn't we similarly accept the testing of this recipe? I suppose the answer would depend on exactly what the tests are/were.

Mom2wildboys, in terms of acidity, I would definitely trust the test for both Bill's salsa and Annie's salsa. I am more concerned about the oil. I don't know enough about destroying botulism spores to judge whether these tests could identify a few spores protected by a drop of oil. If the test were done at the NCHFP by the same process used to test the marinated peppers recipe, I would definitely accept it as valid.

Also, this recipe reduces the onions/peppers and adds more garlic. Since garlic is less watery and more oily, I don't know if that's a valid substitute. Annie's recipe only uses about 1 clove per pint, which is hardly any...you can add one clove of garlic to almost any jar of pickles, even if the brine isn't strong enough to make plain pickled garlic. Maybe I would do 1/2 cup of garlic total in exchange for the 1 cup reduction in onions/peppers, but that's just a guess I made up, not anything official, so I might chicken out even on that.

Finally, as Bill said, roasting brings the oils to the surface, but that can let them bead up--a totally different situation from raw crushed garlic added to a saucy mixture. I'd want to make sure that's ok, since there's more than the usual garlic.

If I wanted to can this recipe for myself, here's what I would do:

-roast the garlic with no oil (in this case I wouldn't cut the tops off)
-use no more than 1/2 cup garlic total
-email Elizabeth Andress at NCHFP to ask whether the concentrated oils from roasting are a problem, or whether I can roast any ingredient in any recipe with no worries
-increase the lemon/lime juice to 1/2 cup, and pressure can

In that case I wouldn't even feel I needed the pH test from the extension, since it's so close to Annie's tested recipe. But if Bill's test on his batch with 1/3 cup juice comes out with a pH well below the limit, I'd be ok with that and stick with 1/3 cup juice. I'd still take the other precautions I listed because of the oil and garlic factors. (If the recipe differed in other ways but didn't add garlic or oil, I would trust the test completely, just as I trust the test that was done on Annie's.)

Again, if this is the full testing process done on the recipes they publish, I trust that, but if it doesn't consider the oil, I would be wary. Just my opinion based on my own judgment.

Melissa

Bill,

I have been hanging around here for years, and still I too am sometimes surprised at the extreme degree of risk-averseness (if that's a word!) of many of my (greatly admired, mind you) fellow posters on this forum. It seems that the degree of risk accepted by many in home canning is pretty much zero --- fair enough, and we certainly all have the right to our own level of tolerance. But to reach such zero-level risk in other areas, you'd have to avoid crossing streets, never store hamburger, etc.

But after all, I think you hit the nail on the head when you mention that the consequence of losing a gamble on this one is DEATH. Risk has two factors: likelihood of result and severity of result. The likelihood of botulism poisoning---EVEN IF you can with a MUCH more cavalier attitude to the rules than your salsa calls for---is very low. It is extremely rare, especially from tomato-based home-canned items. But I can't blame folk for being ultra-averse to encountering it when it's so often FATAL!

I think there's also a particular horribleness to the IDEA of getting poisoned by home canning, because it's meant to be a nourishing act---you take the healthiest kind of food you can imagine (fresh, local veggies from a farm), and you pour homemade love and small-batch care into them, and you preserve them in a time-honoured tradition (but with modern, carefully scientific methods), and you feed them to those you love as an act of kindness. So to imagine the result of all this being making someone literally sick to DEATH with the food---ick, it has a visceral horror to it!

But my goodness, if you can't trust the testing of the Master Food Presevers at your extension office, CAN you? This is their JOB!

So I look forward to hearing what they have to say (and I'm thrilled that they say they can do the tests for you---some extension offices these days seem to be swamped so that they turn down many such requests).

And I for one would eat your salsa. Some of the good folk on this forum consider me an insane cowboy, but there you go. I eat store hamburger, and cross the street regularly, too.

So, when am I coming over for nachos?????

Cheers, and good luck,

Zabby

"Squeeze garlic into cooking pot, peel seed and process roasted peppers and add to pot -- add remain fresh and hot peppers and all other ingredients. Bring to a boil -- boil for ten minutes."

Keyword was SQUEEZE.

Does this make any difference vs pressing or chopping or slicing? Roasted garlic when squeezed out of the bulb is about the consistency of toothpaste.

Does this make any difference, better or worse?

Bill, how did you find a lab to send your salsa to?

Zabby, count me in as another person who would eat Bill's salsa. Of course, I also eat runny eggs and will kiss a horse on the mouth so that's probably an indication of my risk taking. A couple of Master Canning "experts" I showed the recipe to said it "didn't set off any alarms" but stopped short of saying they thought it was safe. I recognize they have guidelines and so are limited in their approval.

My salsa was tested vis Michigan State University through my extension service because the director was a long time friend of mine. The process took 5 years before we came to ratios that they were comfortable with saying "yes, this can be canned with a water bath". I don't know what they tested besides basic Ph levels, I just know that when my extension service director said "Yes, they say this is safe" I did a happy dance and RAN.

As for garlic, I can pickle it like any other low acid vegetable, so why is it "different" in salsa? My extension service just looked at me like I'd lost my mind when I asked them if garlic should be treated differently than leeks/onions/shallots in salsa.

The real "problem" with salsa is that it is something that's consumed as canned, and not heated. Boiling something for 10 minutes is a lot safer than eating it directly from the jar, and that's the issue with salsa.

The most recent numbers on botulism are from the Center for Disease Control and are from 2006. Their information says:

"The 19 cases of foodborne botulism were reported from six states. Of these foodborne cases, toxin type A accounted for 12 (63%) cases, toxin type B for 1 (5%) case, toxin type E for 1 (5%) case, and unknown toxin type for 5 (26%) cases. The median age of patients was 57 years, with a range of 6 years to 80 years; 8 (42%) cases were male and 11 (58%) were female. No deaths were reported. There were five outbreaks involving two or more cases. They were caused by commercially-produced canned chicken broth associated with two cases, commercial carrot juice caused three cases in GA and one case in FL as well as cases in Canada and led to an international product recall, home-canned carrots associated with two cases, home-prepared fermented tofu associated with two cases, and fish eggs associated with five cases in Alaska."

So, it does happen. Home canned carrots and home prepared tofu caused 4 cases. The five cases in Alaska caused by fish eggs doesn't specify whether or not they were home prepared. That leaves 15 cases from commercial products. Go figure, it appears that our kitchens and processes are better than the commercial ones. Or maybe it IS because we are so careful.

Annie

Many questions....Many answers.....

Well, I'm glad to see everyone is still watching this salsa experiment. And Valereee wants to know how I found a lab to test it.

Good question. It took a lot of crying and begging and emailing. But I recently ran into a food safety scientist at UC Davis, and he has been extremely helpful.

While I'm fortunate enough to live in California where labs like this abound -- the VAST MAJORITY do not allow complete yahoos like Bill Bird to walk in off the street with a request to test a jar of home-canned salsa.

Most of the responses I received were somewhat humorous. They normally don't test food products UNLESS said food product has KILLED someone. So -- the only way it seems to get this salsa tested was to hit someone over the head with a jar full of it.

I didn't want to go to that extreme. :)

Most labs I contacted came back with the response of: "We don't test that -- contact your county public health lab." So -- that's exactly what I did -- contact the Sacramento County Public Health Laboratory. And do you know what they told me?

"We don't do that."

But THEN -- they provided me with an online list of labs who DO this type of testing. So -- the next step was to contact one of these labs -- which I did. Do you know what they told me?

"We don't do that type of testing. We suggest you contact the Sacramento County Public Health Laboratory."

But then -- as luck would have it -- a retired UC Davis food safety scientist contacted me out of the blue. His mother did a lot of canning in the forties and fifties and he wanted to help. Turns out, he'd done a lot of testing of home canned products in his day. He gave me a lot of information about pH levels, botulism growth, that sort of thing. He even wanted to look at the recipe.

On an unrelated note, he also told me about the most fail-safe test for botulism contamination. Do you know what that is? They inject mice with the suspected contaminant. And if the mouse dies.....well....then you know. :(

He also added that I not "try this experiment at home," and then proceeded to tell me about a few other tests that did not involve innocent meeses.

At any rate, he also gave me a few other contacts at his UC Davis lab, who have responded to me, and in that time, another lab popped up in the Sacramento area and volunteered to test it. Hopefully, those tests for acceptable pH levels and bacterial contamination are now complete. Haven't heard back from them yet.....hmmm....

In the meantime, I did pop open one of those jars this past weekend and I'm proud to report that I'm still here. I think.....

The retired UCD food safety scientist who looked at the recipe didn't have any problems with it. I asked him about the oil content, and he didn't seem to be too concerned about it. His main concern was the acid content, and seemed satisfied when I told him I'd used bottled lemon juice.

But -- the testing will tell the true story. Hopefully I'll have word for everyone this week or next.

Bill

PS: Zabby, you're always invited over for Nachos. We tend to use a lot of salsa when making one of my favorite dinner dishes of all time -- ground turkey taco salad. YUM!

>> My extension service just looked at me like I'd lost my mind when I asked them if garlic should be treated differently than leeks/onions/shallots in salsa.

Interesting. I have never heard an argument that persuaded me garlic, onion, and peppers couldn't all be reasonably interchanged -- the difference in pH levels between garlic and onion is awfully small considering the percentage of a salsa they can safely make up ANYway, and the difference in density also seems irrelevant---we're talking about chopped solid products in a sauce here; it's the density of the SAUCE part that makes the difference for heat penetration. The only caveat that makes sense to me is that garlic is usually chopped much smaller, so you'd want to swap amounts according to weight, not volume.

I'm no food scientist, and I always feel it necessary to stress that I'm not suggesting anybody can or eat against what they feel comfortable with. But I like to understand, I read a lot of discussions here and info in books & online with care and interest, and I'm just talking about what makes sense to me.

I'm not sure about kissing horses. I've kissed a few toads in my life, till I married my Prince.... ;-)

Bill,
I'll be right over for taco salad!

Do you know the soup trick with salsa? A fellow Harvester turned me on to this last year with ANnie's salsa, and I am sure your version would be great, too: open a pint jar, add a can of black beans, heat and---voila! Black bean soup to DIE for. Top with shredded cheese. My vegetarian sister counts on getting this every time she comes to visit now. (We go through more salsa than ever now I know this trick!)

Zabby

I am sorry that I have been away for so long. Work has been rather time-consuming to say the least out here on the Left Coast. Normally, the fall and winter months are, for the most part, slow. Come December and you could toss a rock into the hallways here and not hit a soul.

Unfortunately, this year is quite a bit different.

As for an update on the now famous and equally controversial Roasted Garlic and Heirloom Tomato salsa -- the results should be in next week.

Two jars of salsa were submitted to Anresco Food Laboratories in San Francisco. Tests include the standard pH count, plus the Standard Plate Count or SPC. This will tell me if there are any toxins in the product, or spores that could develop into toxins at a later date.

This salsa was canned in late September and then I allowed it to sit for two months in the pantry before sending it out to test. I figured that was long enough. Anresco just informed me today that they had received both jars last week and I should have lab results by December 15th.

At that point I'll know whether the wife and I mixed up some really good salsa or some deadly and dangerous rat poison.

I will scan and share the hard copy lab report with anyone who wants it.

Bill

Bill - if it does pass not the test, freeze it. I am not set up for canning at this point and have frozen the various Ball recipes for salsa and chili sauces that I tried. The texture and taste were fine. Another reason I freeze is that I do cut the sugar back and / or substitute Splenda for some of the sweetener.

Nancy

Okay. Well. Ladies and Gents of the canning world. The results were in.

Two bottles of the roasted garlic and heirloom tomato salsa were shipped to Anresco Laboratories in San Francisco for a pH count and a Standard Plate Count.

But Lord help me if I can understand these reports -- because I can't. Perhaps someone with a better knowledge of lab reports can make sense of this.

The pH count came in at less than 3.81. According to Carol, anything less than a 4.6 is a "GOOD THING." So, I guess I've passed that test.

But it's the SPC that throws me. This should have shown if there was a presence for botulism or any other harmful agent. And the SPC report came in at "less than 100."

Well -- can someone tell me EXACTLY what that means? Does it mean "safe to eat?" Does it mean -- "you're screwed?" Does it mean "feed only to rats?"

Can anyone help me out here?

Email is billbird2111@yahoo.com. Thank you,

Bill

Gang,

You can't see it from here -- but I have a smile on my face as wide as the Grand Canyon. To put it short and sweet -- I can finally report, without a doubt and with scientific proof to back it up, that the Roasted Garlic and Heirloom Tomato Salsa recipe is TRIED AND TRUE and SAFE TO CONSUME.

Yes, the recipe listed in this thread is now a proven and true salsa canning recipe. I know that not many of them exist. Add the recipe in this thread to the list of those that received the "scientific stamp of approval."

The lab results from Anresco Laboratories in San Francisco finally came in today. The pH count came in at "less than 3.81." But -- more importantly -- the Standard Plate Count test came in at "less than 100."

Not being a food scientist or microbiologist by ANY stretch of the imagination -- I had a hard time understanding these lab reports. But this is the word from a retired scientist who put in thirty plus years of work in the area of food science safety.

And to me -- the following erases any and all doubts in my mind about the safety and validity of this canning recipe. His analysis is as follows:

"The less than 3.81 pH count defines your product as an "acid food" and rules out concerns with botulism. Generally, you would like to see that number at 4.5 or below.

The "standard plate count" is a generic test for the level of live bacteria in the product. The " Because the sample had to be diluted for testing, the limit of detection was 100 bacteria (colony-forming units) per gram of product. If no bacterial colonies were seen on their agar medium, the result is "I don't know Anresco, but I assume they know what they are doing. The lab results are as good as you could hope for.

And there you have it. After months of worry and waiting -- well -- I'm convinced.

I will share these lab reports with anyone who would like them.

Bill

Gang,

You can't see it from here -- but I have a smile on my face as wide as the Grand Canyon. To put it short and sweet -- I can finally report, without a doubt and with scientific proof to back it up, that the Roasted Garlic and Heirloom Tomato Salsa recipe is TRIED AND TRUE and SAFE TO CONSUME.

Yes, the recipe listed in this thread is now a proven and true salsa canning recipe. I know that not many of them exist. Add the recipe in this thread to the list of those that received the "scientific stamp of approval."

The lab results from Anresco Laboratories in San Francisco finally came in today. The pH count came in at "less than 3.81." But -- more importantly -- the Standard Plate Count test came in at "less than 100."

Not being a food scientist or microbiologist by ANY stretch of the imagination -- I had a hard time understanding these lab reports. But this is the word from a retired scientist who put in thirty plus years of work in the area of food science safety.

And to me -- the following erases any and all doubts in my mind about the safety and validity of this canning recipe. His analysis is as follows:

"The less than 3.81 pH count defines your product as an "acid food" and rules out concerns with botulism. Generally, you would like to see that number at 4.5 or below.

The "standard plate count" is a generic test for the level of live bacteria in the product. The " Because the sample had to be diluted for testing, the limit of detection was 100 bacteria (colony-forming units) per gram of product. If no bacterial colonies were seen on their agar medium, the result is "I don't know Anresco, but I assume they know what they are doing. The lab results are as good as you could hope for.

And there you have it. After months of worry and waiting -- well -- I'm convinced.

I will share these lab reports with anyone who would like them.

Bill

Congratulations, Bill! You definitely went the extra mile with your salsa, but I know it's worth it for the peace of mind.

It's generous of you to share your recipe and results. Cutting-and-pasting as soon as I finish typing.

Carol

Hey, Bill, I was just wondering about your tests the other day! Thanks so much for giving us the final answer!!!!

I'm so glad for you. Yay, heirloom tomatoes! Yay, roasted garlic! Yay, salsa! ;-)

Zabby

YES!!! I knew it would be fine but it's sure nice to have some actually scientific testing to back that up.

I might have to add your "tweaks" to my own repertoire, I can think of several people (including myself), who'd like the extra garlic.

Annie

All that hoopla and hullabaloo, and it turned out to be perfectly safe after all. I wonder why all the naysayers and fear mongers who posted earlier in this thread did not come back and congratulate Bill. He did go the "extra mile." He did have a lab prove that his canning recipe was safe. Where are the congratulations?? All of the "MY GOD, YOU'RE GOING TO DIE AND KILL EVERYONE ELSE TOO!" know-it-all people should be happy now, right? Or does it bother them that they can't continue their doom-and-gloom message in this thread?

Congratulations, Bill. And thank you VERY much for being so kind, patient, and thoughtful. Enjoy your salsa!