Seaglassgirl, we also highly recommend our USDA book from the Univ. of Georgia called So Easy To Preserve. You order it online from the Univ. of Georgia. Their website is the one we suggest more than any other at the extension office. The lady who wrote the USDA guidelines works there, Elizabeth Andress. The book is really basically the same as the website listed below. Just nice to have in printed form. Cost is $18 US funds. If you need me to get and send in case they don't ship to Canada, let me know.
Do you want books on making jams or basic books, etc. ? I like the Jamlady Cookbook, too, for jams. Blue Ribbon Preserves is good, but not all of her things are safe to follow.
The Ball Complete Book is really good. It is a Canadian publication. I have a copy of it. Really like it !
Nice to have you back, Seaglassgirl !

Here is a link that might be useful: NCHFP at Univ. of Georgia.

I categorize canning/preserving books and websites in various levels of safety. For the most part my list agrees with those from Linda Lou.

Safest websites - NCHFP, freshpreserving.com, bernardin. com only.

Safest books - BBB, Ball Complete Book, So Easy to Preserve only.

Less safe websites - Mrs. Wages simply because their primary goal is sale of their products, most other canning forums on the web, and personal blog canning sites that at least acknowledge the USDA guidelines and try to follow them. Evaluate those canning recipes individually.

Less safe books - Ellie Topp's since she voids some of the basic rules. I avoid those recipes or eliminate the questionable items in the recipes. My trust in it is based more on my trust of other's opinions than the book itself. Jamlady Cookbook has some questionable recipes and we avoid those but jams are generally safe by their nature. General COOKbooks.

Potentially hazardous websites - recipezaar.com, allrecipes.com, cooks.com, etc. as they make no effort whatsoever to vet the canning recipes they allow to be posted and many of them are patently unsafe and sould be pulled. Personal blog canning sites that make no effort to follow or even acknowledge the USDA guidelines.

Potentially hazardous books - partsof any published before 2004, any that don't even acknowledge USDA or equivalent guidelines, any that call for the use of home pH testing, any that are strictly canning-cultural-recipes oriented as their focus is culture not safety, and pressure canner manuals.

Since this is JMO I will also add that a focus on canning what are called gourmet or unusual gift recipes (fancy multiple ingredient recipes) rather than a focus on canning the basic ingredients that can later be combined at serving time for that gourmet recipe increases the safety risk factor 10 fold.

Hope this helps.

Dave

And avoid pretty much any "canning" recipe with dairy, oil, or thickeners other than regular clear jel (and only a few of those).

There are a handful of exceptions, but most of those are posted on the sites or in the books recommended above.

If I find a site that contains a recipe with ANY of these "risky" foods, I am very, very suspicious of ALL recipes there.

You can always check here too! Many knowledgeable, patient, helpful folks!

Deanna

I disagree on Small-Batch Preserving. Topp voids some of the basic rules, yes. So do the NCHFP and other Extension agencies in canning such things as marinated peppers with oil in the solution. I don't think it's an issue of voiding the rules; I think it's an issue of having the credentials to formulate safe canning recipes, and Topp does. Her credentials were sufficient to develop recipes for Bernardin.

Her method for infused oils was new and different. No one else had thought to heat the oil to drive off the water. The Canadian government granted her funding to prove that her method was safe. She did prove it and the method was subsequently accepted.

I do think her style conforms more to Canadian conventions than American and that makes some uncomfortable. I would never recommend anyone use a source they are not fully comfortable with. But for myself, I'm not worried.

I love the Jamlady cookbook (I see Linda Lou also mentioned it). There may be something questionable I've missed (the book is dense with recipes) but Alfeld's maximum pH for her recipes is 4.3, so personally I'm not concerned. Her pickling book I might not recommend because it's more experimental and is meant to be a learning workbook. It has a ton of information but rests the responsbility for much of the recipe development on the reader.

Joy of Pickling is an excellent pickling guideline which hasn't been mentioned.

Carol

I just got my copy of Small Batch Preserving and even to a novice like me, some of the recipes looked awfully questionable. But then I also realized since she is canning in such small batches, what may look like a small amount of vinegar in low acid veggie recipes may just be okay. We use a cup of acid in Annie's Salsa and she uses 1/3 cup. Annie's salsa makes 7 pints and her's only makes 2 1/2.

But just to be safe, do we know that all of these recipes have been tested?

do we know that all of these recipes have been tested?

Tested by whom? NCHFP? USDA? No, they are not. Re-read Carol's and my posts above. As Carol said, "it's an issue of having the credentials to formulate safe canning recipes, and Topp does. Her credentials were sufficient to develop recipes for Bernardin." It's those credentials that lead some to trust her recipes, not any formal testing. Personally, I am not comfortable with some of the recipes in Topp's book so I don't use them.

Also as Carol said, it's your choice to use her book or not. "I do think her style conforms more to Canadian conventions than American and that makes some uncomfortable. I would never recommend anyone use a source they are not fully comfortable with. But for myself, I'm not worried."

When in doubt I always refer back to one of the basic lessons taught in canning certification classes:

"Just because something is approved for use in one recipe doesn't mean you can assume it is safe to use in other recipes (ex: oil). Nor can you assume that all similar recipes are equally safe. Each recipe has to be evaluated for safety on it's own merits."

Dave

Okay. So if her recipes aren't tested and haven't been deemed safe by the powers that be, isn't that just irresponsible to publish a book of said recipes?

Going forward, I would love to try some of her sauces but would prefer not to kill anyone in the process. Would I be better off just running the recipes by you guys before proceeding?? I'm learning about proportions and acidity but certainly not enough to make the call on my own.

For example, the first recipe I tried was her Red Onion Relish. Recipe is:

2 large red onions
1/2 cup brown sugar
1 cup red wine
3 tbs balsamic vinegar
salt and pepper

Slice onion into thin slices. Combine onions and sugar and cook for 25 minutes. Stir in wine and vinegar. Bring to boil and cook for another 15 minutes (until most of the liquid has evaporated.)

BWB for 10 minutes.

This didn't make enough to actually waste the time for canning but it was so good that I would want to. Do you think that is safe?

So if her recipes aren't tested and haven't been deemed safe by the powers that be, isn't that just irresponsible to publish a book of said recipes?

Irresponsible? It's reality. It all depends on who you mean by "powers that be" and that is what you have to decide for yourself. There are hundreds of books on the market that have never been tested and approved by USDA/NCHFP and never will be. That includes all the Canadian Bernardin books/website - they aren't subject to USDA guidelines in any way.

So if NCHFP approval only is what you are comfortable with then you need to stick with their approved publications and website: So Easy to Preserve, BBB, Ball Complete Book.

If, like most of us, you choose to expand that comfort zone to include Bernardin publications - fine.

Beyond that, IMO, things get a bit "iffy". You have to start evaluating the author's credentials, the reputation of the book, what do other people whose opinion you respect think of it, the source if it is an online site, how old is the book, how much does it deviate from NCHFP/Ball, and the recipes themselves.

I already detailed my personal evaluations above. So has Carol. Linda Lou is pretty much constrained by her job to NCHFP guidelines. Annie, Deanna, Ken, and Zabby have posted about their comfort zone too in the past. We don't all agree on where to draw the line and that's fine. And you know there are lots of folks who post here that think we are all WAY too uptight about ANY guidelines. ;)

But I think we all do agree on the fact that ultimately you have to make your own choice, define your own comfort zone. And until you can do that either by gaining experience or taking classes perhaps it is best to stick with NCHFP approved recipes.

This is sure not to say you can't post and ask about one - many of Topp's recipes have been discussed here in detail in the past - Red Onion Relish is one of them. It is plenty acidic with all that wine but it is such a small amount and keeps so well in the fridge that I've never seen any reason to process it. But you can in 1/2 pint jars if you want to double the recipe.

Hope this helps.

Dave

I don't know how the conclusion was arrived at that Topp's recipes weren't tested. On what basis was that assumption made?

The NCHFP doesn't publish for public consumption its development and testing protocol for each recipe. Should we arrive at the conclusion that they don't bother?

No scientist (and Topp is a scientist) is going to formulate canning recipes out of whole cloth without testing them. After all, the woman has advanced degrees in Food Science and Microbiology with specialization in Experimental Foods. She was a research associate in the Department of Food Research at the University of Illinois and has published in Food Research International.

In the Acknowledgements Topp and Howard cite the support of two individuals from the Health Protection Branch, Health Canada for their counsel on aspects of food safety.

They also acknowledge the Centre for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition and the US Food and Drug Administration for providing references of recent research on the safety of vegetable-in-oil products.

Yes, some of her recipes appear to "break the rules." So does the NCHFP's cannable lemon curd, the Ball Blue Book's flour-thickened mustard pickle and Colorado Extension's (linked from the NCHFP page) Peppers Marinated in Oil.

I think there's some confusion. USDA guidelines are designed for home food preservation. Those who have scientific credentials and access to food testing and development facilities don't need to concern themselves with general recommendations designed for the layperson.

A scientist is not concerned about USDA recommendations; a scientist is concerned about testing and verification. Can a recipe be developed which consistently proves safe under a wide variety of conditions presumed to be typical of the home preserver? That is the issue, not the USDA.

So yes, I am comfortable with Topp because of her credentials and her stellar reputation in the field.

However, I do return to what I said originally. I would never suggest anyone follow recipes or procedures which make them uncomfortable.

Carol

Oh Dave - it only raises more questions :-) Simple logic. How can anyone create canning recipes without knowing for sure that they are actually safe? And with credentials such as Ellie's, shouldn't she know the risks? I've read here many, many times about substitutions to recipes. What is safe and what isn't. Why some recipes with oil are deemed safe because of the testing. So even with the knowledge and expertise that she has, it still doesn't mean that you can just do it and expect it to be safe. Each recipe is different. Each recipe needs to be tested to be deemed safe. Boggles my mind.

Anyway, I'll stick with my tried, true and tested. And while I am sure most of her recipes are safe, I will run the ones that seem questionable past you guys before venturing into uncharted territory. I like my kids - I'd hate to poison them :-)

I don't know how the conclusion was arrived at that Topp's recipes weren't tested. On what basis was that assumption made?

Misunderstanding Carol. Please don't read into what I said. ccaggiano asked were they tested? I asked tested by whom? Then added they were not tested by NCHFP/USDA. That's it. That's all. ;)

I think there's some confusion. USDA guidelines are designed for home food preservation. Those who have scientific credentials and access to food testing and development facilities don't need to concern themselves with general recommendations designed for the layperson.

A scientist is not concerned about USDA recommendations; a scientist is concerned about testing and verification. Can a recipe be developed which consistently proves safe under a wide variety of conditions presumed to be typical of the home preserver? That is the issue, not the USDA.

I have to respectfully disagree. If that scientist is publishing a book for other scientists, then yes they needn't concern themselves with guidelines for the layperson. But when publishing a book expressly for the layperson's use then they darn well should be concerned! Ellie Topp's book is for use by home food preservers. As such she, and any other author of a canning book, has a moral, ethical, and legal responsibility to insure it is safe for the home food preserver to use and when. But that is the ideal, not reality.

How can anyone create canning recipes without knowing for sure that they are actually safe?

Agreed, ccaggiano, but sadly many write the books just for the money and could care less about safety. As I said above, IMO Ellie Topp's book meets that responsibility to the lay home canner and, for the most part,adheres to the USDA guidelines even though she isn't bound by them. However we all know there are many, many so-called canning books out there that do NOT meet that responsibility and ignore those guidelines. So it is buyer beware and use at your own risk. So you can either seek the education that will allow you to make informed choices or if that isn't possible then stick with the accepted standard guidelines. In the US that is USDA/NCHFP.

Dave

Okay guys - I didn't want to start a debate. I am just trying to wrap my head around this. And I guess it is why canning seems so complicated to me. I get that you need to use approved recipes. I get that there are certain substitutions that can safely be made. You guys have made that abundantly clear. And I have no problem with that. If I can safely substitute, I will. If I don't like an ingredient in a recipe and it can't be substituted, I'll skip it. C'est la vie.

But (and I am specifically talking about Small Batch Preserving) there seems to be recipes that break all of the rules. If those recipes were made from a scientific standpoint and not actually tested, how can you be assured that they are safe? I thought that, although there are some recipes that break the rules, those recipes were okay because of the testing done.

In the Acknowledgements Topp and Howard cite the support of two individuals from the Health Protection Branch, Health Canada for their counsel on aspects of food safety.

They also acknowledge the Centre for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition and the US Food and Drug Administration for providing references of recent research on the safety of vegetable-in-oil products.

Carol, not to split hairs, but simple counseling, to me, doesn't say to me that it is proven to be safe. But I'll be the first to admit that I am a canning moron. What do I know??? But I think it is a valid question.

This is what I found out about her credentials. No place does it say she it trained in safe home food preservation. She does have a degreen in Home Economics and is a culinary professional. You draw your own conclusions.
***************************************

Ellie Topp is a Professional Home Economist and a Certified Culinary Professional (CCP) by the International Association of Culinary Professionals. She holds a Bachelors degree in Home Economics from Northwestern University, a Masters degree in foods and nutrition from the University of Wisconsin and was a research associate in the Department of Food Research at the University of Illinois . Ellie writes a monthly column, ''Food Bits'', for a local newspaper and has authored eight cookbooks. With With support from Canola Information Service and in collaboration with Health Canada, Ellie developed a safe method for making flavored oils, the results of which were included in The Complete Book of Small-Batch Preserving (Firefly 2001, 2007) and published in Food Research International (Topp, E.B., F.J. Cook, G.C. Topp. "Heating oils with fresh vegetable inclusions: modelling and measurement of heating pattern." Vol.36 [2003] 831-842).

Ellie is an active member of the Ontario and Ottawa Home Economics Associations, the International Association of Culinary Professionals and Cuisine Canada.

In addition to the references here, many State Extension Services have websites, one of my favorites is "Preserving Food Safely" from Michigan State University.

Be aware, though, that anyone can put any recipe they want on the internet. It doesn't have to be good, it doesn't have to be safe, it doesn't have to be tested. Heck, it doesn't even have to ever had been made successfully. I'm very leery of sites like RecipeZaar who allow anyone to post anything, and I check those recipes carefully before I decide to make them, let alone can them.

As for Ellie Topp, I'm one of the people who are comfortable with her credentials so I use her recipes if it suits me. I work for lawyers and government lawyers to boot, so I know the liability issues. The government is going to test and retest. Does this mean that a recipe not tested by an American government agency is unsafe? Of course it doesn't. It only means that OUR government hasn't tested it and so won't guarantee its safety.

A good dose of common sense is necessary when canning, and basic canning rules should be learned and followed. After that everyone has to decide their own comfort levels and make their own informed choices.

LindaLou is constrained by her job so she can only promote recipes and methods tested by American government agencies. You know that her recipes and methods are safe but she has no leeway.

And just to add to the fun, guidelines change. Recipes get tested and retested and as information is available, what we did yesterday isn't necessarily approved today, you've got to stay updated.

Annie

The Jamlady cookbook??? I haven't heard of this one before. Can someone tell me more about this book, is it as the title suggests, all about jams? Is it found at the local book super store or only on line?
Thanks for the info in advance.
Teri

Here you go - all the details. Readily available in most bookstores that carry cook books. Readily available online.

Dave

Here is a link that might be useful: The Jam Lady Cookbook

Dave, that book sounds delicious!
Thank you,
Teri

I like _Putting Food By_. My copy is from the early 90s (last revision) but I note from amazon.com that a new one is due to be out in May of 2010.

They are very, very, very careful.

Putting Food By may be "very, very careful" - although that is often debated here - but it is also seriously outdated when it comes to the following the current guidelines.

Dave

So I've learned, since I've started doing this after a hiatus of a few years. I'm quite glad that they are issuing an updated copy in May.

Told my mother last summer that she could no longer "can" her cucumber pickles in the oven and got a lecture on how it has been good enough for her for 50 years and her mother and aunts before her, on and on. I tried to explain how things change, but she wouldn't hear of it. At least I convinced her to do the BWB method instead for this year! I didn't even get into the fact that her brine wasn't acidic enough. Maybe this summer! I know, I'm obligated to tell her!!

Steve

Steve - I can empathize! Last summer I went to my neighbor next door to borrow something and she was heating up her canning jars in the oven! I kind of mentally cringed but as I'm a coward said nothing! This Christmas I got 4 or 5 jars of canning from this sweet sweet lady all in unsafe jars. Well there they sit on my canning shelf as a testament to my cowardice. All I can do is make sure my own daughters know the proper canning basics and for anything else tell them about this website.

Steve, I told Dad about pickles too, he open kettle canned them. Processed pickles are always too soft. He liked them the other way and that's how he made them. When he got so ill he couldn't do it himself, I did it for him, his way.

I had explained and he made his choice, and there's nothing you can do after that. I figured he was a 75 year old man with congestive heart failure, a quadruple bypass, numerous heart attacks and diabetes. A improperly processed dill pickle was the least of his health worries.

Annie

This whole thread is disheartening to the novice canner. I've been dying to jump in and really get into canning, but basically what I'm understand here is there is a very limited scope of recipes that are supposedly "safe" and that kind of kills it for me. I'll have to pick up those books and see what the reality is.

As for mom and her 50 years of pickling, I would point it out and then drop it. If I'd been pickling for 50 years a certain way with no issues, no overzealous government agency (because we all know the government safety standards are always over the top), that would be far more than enough "testing" to convince me. She's probably done them more times than the USDA ever did testing a single recipe.

what I'm understand here is there is a very limited scope of recipes that are supposedly "safe" and that kind of kills it for me. I'll have to pick up those books and see what the reality is.

Oh no, not at all. Sorry if we gave you that impression.

While it is true that you often can't safely can your own made-up recipes, there are hundreds of tested and approved recipes available. And nothing prevents you from canning the individual ingredients of your own recipes and then combining them at preparation time.

But the easiest place to start is at NCHFP online. Review all the recipes there to start with and then browse through a copy of the Ball Blue Book for starters.

Dave

If you just pick up the Ball Complete Book and the Small Batch book, you'll have plenty of interesting recipes to try.

I'm a novice too, and I'm so glad I found this forum because it got me started off with good habits and the knowledge of safe canning methods right at the beginning.

There are some wonderful people here with a lot of experience and who are generous with their knowledge. If I hadn't found this site early on, I wouldn't have known about some of the changes in accepted methods--especially since my first info gathering had been a trip to the library. The books there were so old! I had also looked at some of the websites I have obtained regular recipes, not knowing there were unsafe or untested recipes there. I was simply didn't know any different. When I started reading here, I was still getting prepped for the real thing. The only thing I'd done up till then was jams and jellies, so I was still okay.

By the information I received here, I began to recognize when a websites or youtube video promoted unsafe practices. I visited the USDA sites and ordered the So Easy to Preserve cookbook and the DVD. Both have been very helpful in understanding techniques, not just safety, but tips and tricks on how to prepare the fruits and vegetables.

I'm still learning, and haven't processed a huge variety yet, but I feel comfortable with the canner and the process. I have been using the Ball Blue Book and So Easy to Preserve, but I just ordered the Ball Complete and the Small Batch book. I think that will nicely round out what I need. I do not find any lack of recipes. I also like it that the Ball Book and So Easy to Preserve also include other preservation methods, such as freezing and dehydrating, and will tell you when one is better for a specific food. I have a new dehydrator and I'm new to that, too. I really appreciate the focus on safety.

Jill

bump in response to recent requests for info

Can we make a list?

NCHFP (National Center for Home food Preservation)
Ball Blue Book
Ball Complete Book
Bernardin
Ball Complete Book
So Easy to Preserve
Joy of Pickling
Mrs. Wages (keep in mind motive is to sell product)
Ellie Topp's books (probably not best for beginners as it may require a comfort level with canning and some judgement calls)
Jamlady Cookbook (probably not best for beginners as it may require a comfort level with canning and some judgement calls)

http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/
freshpreserving.com
bernardin.com
State coorperative extentions
Obviously HERE!

If I forgot any please copy and paste and add to the list. Lets keep it a POSITIVE list of sound recommendations.

This can be dizzying to newbies (sometimes for oldies too :)). I just want to keep things short & sweet!

Joy of Jams, Jellies and Sweet Preserves
Putting Food By Fifth edition 2010

I found this forum while searching for a recipe. Lots of great info & recipes that I can't wait to try.

I recently bought 2 canning books after taking them out of the library.

Putting Up - A Year-Round Guide to Canning in the Southern Tradition by Stephen Palmer Downey (2008)

Putting up More - A Guide to Canning Jams, Relishes, Chutneys, Pickles, Sauces & Salsas - same author (2011).

He & his son owned a canning company. Some recipes require a BWB, but most jellies, etc., don't. He states the FDA's requirements for a canning company is that everything used is sterilized with clorox & water - 2 TBS to each gallon of water.

The jars, utensils, counters, cutting boards, etc., are washed & then rinsed, soaked or wiped down with the clorox solution. The jars, lids & rings are then turned upside down on top of the sterilized counter until the jelly or whatever is ready to be jarred. Most jellies are sealed & turned upside down on a towel for 2 min. or more. That warms the seal on the lid so, of course, it will seal.

When he's canning something that needs a BWB, the center jar has a lid on it with a little hole in it that a small thermometer fits in. The water in the canner is only up to the first ring on the jar. The thermometer needs to reach a certain temp before that specific recipe is considered safe. He also recommends ph paper. The ph tells what the temp should be. When the temp is reached, the canner is taken off the stove, the jars are left in for 2 min. The center jar with the hole in the lid is replaced with a regular canning lid & sealed.

There's much more to it than this. I don't want to make this long.

I've made several of his hot pepper jelly recipes & one that includes onions. Each one is to die for. I haven't had anything to try the BWB recipes. My cukes bit the dust & I freeze most veggies. But, he has recipes for soups, etc., that I may eventually try. In his 2nd book, he also has suggestions on how to serve a particular recipe.

I've been canning for LOTS of years, & I love his method.

Barb

Here is a link that might be useful: Author's website

Both books, while interesting, have been discussed here in the past. They are not necessarily approved as safe for canning recipes because of methodology and the ingredients in some of the recipes. While I have no specific issues with most of his jams and jellies recipes I find some of mixed vegetable recipes to be low in acid and processing and too many recipes that call for added oil.

He has no professional food science credentials, advocates litmus paper testing of your own made-up recipes, advocates pasteurization processing rather than BWB processing, and blatantly disregards some of the established guidelines. His focus is meeting the minimal FDA requirements, not USDA or NCHFP.

IMO they are use with care or use-at-your-own risk books.

Dave

Dave,
Thanks for the bump! Lots of interesting books to check out.

Kay

Thanks, Dave. I guess I should have asked "are these safe"?

There are really good recipes in them that could be converted to safe canning methods, plus, they're in our library.

I have taken some of the other books mentioned out from our library also.

Barb

So in the "Joy of Pickling", Linda Ziedrich recommends pasteurization for some of the pickle recipes, to keep the pickles from getting soft. Should we consider that unreliable advice?

So in the "Joy of Pickling", Linda Ziedrich recommends pasteurization for some of the pickle recipes, to keep the pickles from getting soft. Should we consider that unreliable advice?

Please don't take things out of context and try to generalize from them.

Not only are Ziedrichs food science background and credentials well established and documented but while pasteurization may have a valid role in some pickling recipes, it does not necessarily follow that it can be used for all or for anything else.

I think it should be clear from all the discussion above that the reliability of a particular canning book is based on a number of factors, not just one.

When in doubt and especially when new to home canning sticking the standard books and sources is safest.

Dave

The 2010 edition of Putting Food By says that pasteurization (which they call Hot Water Bath) is used "only for certain sweet, acid fruit juices, and as a finishing - as against a complete processing - procedure to help seal preserves and pickles/relishes and sauerkraut."

In the chapter on pickles (Chapter 19) it says "If the food is very high-acid, it may be given a low-temperature pasteurization between 180 F/82 C and 185 F/85 C for 30 minutes, Which (sic) preserves the crisp texture of sauerkraut or fresh cucumber or pickles."

This is the method Linda Z recommends for some of her recipes. It's important to note the "very high-acid food" requirement.

Now, I know this is going to come up on the Hot Pepper forum - why is testing pH with litmus paper not safe? Is the margin of error too great? Of course if someone has a pH meter with a calibrated probe that is kept in a buffered solution...(at least that's what Dept of Consumer Protection Food Safety Division recommended I get to test each batch of acidified food I might make, though law requires lab testing of first batch of each recipe).