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lisazone6_ma

Dissappointed with my Kosher Dills

lisazone6_ma
14 years ago

I just opened my first jar of kosher dill spears that I made this summer using the recipe in the Ball Blue Book. While I was thrilled with the sweet pickle chips I made, these were really mushy and limp and I wasn't thrilled with the taste - WAY salty, and way too hot as well. And I like spicy hot! I added a garlic clove, a bay leaf and a dried hot pepper to each jar like it said in the book to turn the dills to "kosher" dills. Maybe the type of hot pepper I used was simply TOO hot - they were a red Thai chili that I grew myself a while back. Anyway, maybe I should try a refrigerator type instead so I get that crisp, crunch that I was looking for? The taste wasn't bad, but the limp mushy texture was a big turn off. I followed the recipe to a "T" so I don't think I did anything wrong. I don't think I'll be adding the hot pepper if I make them again! It just overpowered the other flavors. I only have 3 quarts so it's not like I made tons and am stuck with them or anything, but I really am after that garlicky, kosher style with some crunch to them.

Thanks in advance for any tips!

Lisa

Comments (33)

  • dgkritch
    14 years ago

    Maybe try fermented pickles next year! They're awesome and they have a unique flavor that you just can't get from non-fermented ones.

    Deanna

  • digdirt2
    14 years ago

    3 tips for extra crispy pickles are (1) use only the freshest pickling cukes - slicers and store-bought cukes are usually too watery and too old. Pick and pickle within 12 hours. (2) make sure the brine is actively boiling hot when poured onto the cukes in the jar. Any less temp almost guarantees soft pickles. (3) invest in some calcium chloride, formerly known as Pickle Crisp.

    Meanwhile you can use these diced in salad recipes.

    Hope this helps.

    Dave

    PS: we never add any hot pepper, just a few dried pepper flakes. Cuts down on the bacterial contamination that can also cause mushy pickles and the flavor doesn't intensify on the shelves like fresh peppers will.

  • lisazone6_ma
    Original Author
    14 years ago

    I actually plan on making a batch next season that you "brine" first - is that the same as "fermented"? The only reason I didn't do that in the first place is I didn't have a crock to put them in and this was my very first time making pickles so I thought I'd go with an "easier" recipe.

    I did use a pickling cucumber, Snow's Fancy Pickling Cukes, that I grew myself specifically to make pickles with, so they were fresh, however I admit I was picking over the course of a few days until I had enough to make a batch, so they weren't picked the same day that I made the pickles.

    I added some red pepper flakes to the sweet pickle chips I made and those were perfect, so that is a good idea - I'll do the same for the next batch of dills I make instead of using the whole, dried pepper.

    What's funny is I literally grew these peppers about 12 years ago, and I'm still using them and they still pack a wollop as far as heat goes!! I couldn't find the same variety so I planted Thai Orange this year, which are about a third the size and pretty hot themselves, but I haven't made anything with them yet.

    What does the calcium chloride do? From the name I guess it's obvious they make pickles crisp!, but how does it work?

    Lisa

  • bejay9_10
    14 years ago

    I find the Thai peppers to be especially hot. Perhaps it is because they are freshly grown - like mine. I learned to use only a small piece in any foods I cook. I dried some in my dehydrator - perhaps with time they cool down somewhat, but I wouldn't bet on it.

    Also, if you like garlic - it is best to plant the red types. Not sure what they are called, but they are stronger than the white garlic that is sold in most stores. I think it is an Italian variety - best for spaghetti, etc.

    This year, someone in the forum gave a recipe for this garlic pureed in olive oil, and frozen in ice cubes. Makes a quick oil/garlic combination for sauted foods. Nice idea.

    Bejay

  • lisazone6_ma
    Original Author
    14 years ago

    I usually buy a large amount of garlic, then roast it and puree it with olive oil and keep it in a tub in the fridge. Then when I need some garlic, I just spoon out what I want and I'm off. I like the "nutty" flavor garlic gets when roasted. However, sometimes I end up throwing the last of it away as it tends to mold after a while. Freezing it in individual cubes is a great idea! I mince and freeze fresh herbs in ice cube trays like that, but I never thought of doing the same with the garlic puree! Great tip! Thanks Bejay.

    Lisa

  • brookw_gw
    14 years ago

    Lisa,

    I started cutting off both ends of the cuke. Apparently, the blossom end contains enzymes that can turn the pickle soft. Maybe it's my imagination, but I believe I can tell a difference.

    Brook

  • Linda_Lou
    14 years ago

    Lisa,
    Please do not store garlic in oil. You can get botulism from that. Within just a few days the botulism can start growing. If you want it in oil, then make up and freeze.
    If your cukes were sitting around that long, that could easily explain why they are soft. The best is to pick them and use them immediately. The quicker the better.
    I agree, using a bit of dried crushed red pepper is better in pickles.
    The old method of making refrigerator pickles is no longer considered safe. Listeria can grow in them.
    Did you use canning/pickling salt?
    The suggestion of fermenting is a good one. You don't need a crock, any foodsafe glass or plastic container will work. Those suntea jars work well.
    Cutting off the blossom end is necessary. Calcium chloride is the same firming agent used in commercial pickles. Now all you can get is it in bulk. I get it from Bulk Foods online.
    Since yours are so salty can you soak them in some water and then grind for relish? I would just soak what I want to use each time as you need that vinegar to keep them safe.
    I use a quick pack recipe. This is what I use:
    Kosher Dill (Heinz Recipe)

    4 lbs pickling cukes
    14 cloves garlic, peeled & split
    1/4 cup salt
    2 3/4 cups distilled or apple cider vinegar 5% acidity
    2 3/4 cups water
    12 to 14 sprigs fresh dill weed
    28 peppercorns

    Wash cucumbers; remove 1/16 inch from blossom end, cut in half lengthwise. Combine garlic and next 3 ingredients; heat to boiling. Remove garlic and place 4 halves into each clean jar, then pack cucumbers, adding 2 sprigs of dill and 4 peppercorns. Pour hot vinegar solution over cucumbers to within 1/2 inch of top. Immediately adjust covers as jar manufacturer directs. Process 10 minutes in BWB. Makes 6-7 pints.

  • jonas302
    14 years ago

    I made the ball recipe also I had to toss the first batch the salt was crazy the next batch I cut salt in half I didn't have any pickle crisp yet but they didn't turn out to mushy Now I have 7 pounds of calcium cloride for the next few years..

    It was probly the type of pepper you had that got to hot I put a whole pepper in also a cayanne I beleive and not really spicy at all

    I have no idea how calcium cloride works though sounds like good thing to google

    For fermented pickes a five gallon pickle bucket will work and its free one of my plates fit inside just prefect for a lid

  • busylizzy
    14 years ago

    As much as I love my crocks, they are just too heavy for the desalting process for me anymore, and no strong boys around to help.
    I pick up for free the squat icing buckets that grocery store bakery, I think they are 3 gallon size and have handles, easier to work with

  • illuci
    14 years ago

    Re: calcium chloride...you can also get this in small amounts through cheesemaking supply stores, like New England Cheesemaking
    www.cheesemaking.com

  • annie1992
    14 years ago

    Lisa, don't feel alone, if it helps I make horrible pickles. If they are waterbathed I don't care what you put in them or what you do to them, they are going to "cook" to some degree and lose some crispness. A fermented pickle might be better and crisper, I don't know because I don't make them. I don't even like dill pickles, I only made them for Dad, although I love Linda Lou's sweet pickles.

    Anyway, use intensely fresh cucumbers, ice them, cut off the blossom end before pickling them, and use Pickle Crisp. That's as crisp a pickle as you're going to get with a BWB.

    Mine are always soft, soggy, nasty. Ick. Even with Pickle Crisp.

    Annie

  • luke_oh
    14 years ago

    Hi Linda Lou, Tell me more about the danger with refrigerator pickles. I usually make our spare frig. full of them. My favorite is the 1/2 sour fermented pickles. I usually put these in gallon jars and put in the frig for keeping and to slow down the fermentation process. How long is it safe to keep this way?
    Thanks, Luke

  • Linda_Lou
    14 years ago

    Luke,
    I am sorry, but they are not safe to store at all. Unless you fully ferment the pickles they will not have enough lactic acid to make them acidic enough. Listeria can start growing in them.
    You either need to fully ferment pickles or use a quick pack pickle recipe.
    This is from my files :
    Improperly home-canned vegetables have led to cases of botulism, a potentially deadly foodborne illness. Listeria bacteria have raised concern in some unprocessed refrigerator pickle recipes.

    Wide varieties of tested pickling recipes are available. With the right recipe and procedure, you safely can pickle beans, onions, peppers, tomatoes, zucchini, beets and many other vegetables.

    With untested formulations, you could have a "recipe for disaster."

    USDA recipes undergo continual review. Sometimes recipes are removed for public safety reasons. For example, recipes for "refrigerator dill pickles" were removed from USDA materials when it was discovered that Listeria monocytogenes bacteria could survive in home-fermented refrigerator dill pickles.

    Listeria is a particularly problematic type of bacteria. ItÂs often found in raw milk, soft-ripened cheese, raw vegetables, raw meat, poultry and fermented raw-meat sausage. It grows at refrigerator temperatures and can survive in acidic conditions.

    Listeriosis, the condition associated with Listeria, is particularly risky for children, the elderly, immune-compromised and pregnant women. It can cause a miscarriage among pregnant women. When you consider that pregnant women often crave dill pickles, you can see the issue.

    *************
    Annie, actually our tests have shown that processed pickles are more crisp since you have destroyed the enymes that cause deterioration and spoilage.
    I think it must be your water. I never have any problems with soft pickles. Could you try bringing water home from some place else and trying that and see what happens ?

  • luke_oh
    14 years ago

    Linda Lou, Thanks for the information. What is a Quick Pack Pickle receipe? I made the fermented pickles this year for the 1st time and I would be happy with just those alone.

    Luke

  • Linda_Lou
    14 years ago

    The ones I use are the Heinz recipe. It works well for me.
    Add a dried hot chili if you want them spicy.
    You can use this recipe. It is my favorite one for dills. I cut in spears, some were in thicker slices, some I did whole.

    KOSHER DILL PICKLES (HEINZ RECIPE)

    4 lbs pickling cukes
    14 cloves garlic, peeled & split
    1/4 cup salt
    2 3/4 cups distilled or apple cider vinegar 5% acidity
    2 3/4 cups water
    12 to 14 sprigs fresh dill weed
    28 peppercorns

    Wash cucumbers; remove 1/16 inch from blossom end, cut in half lengthwise.

    Combine garlic and next 3 ingredients; heat to boiling.

    Remove garlic and place 4 halves into each clean jar, then pack cucumbers, adding 2 sprigs of dill and 4 peppercorns.

    Pour hot vinegar solution over cucumbers to within 1/2 inch of top. Immediately adjust covers as jar manufacturer directs.

    Process 10 minutes in boiling water bath.

    Makes 6-7 pints

  • val_s
    14 years ago

    I think I'm going to cry! A few years ago I started making these refrigerator pickles and have made them every year since. We love them and I also have about 3 people who look forward each year to getting them (I always tell everyone to use them up within 3 weeks). I think I saw this mentioned on another site.

    I'm not sure why we love them so much but we do. Maybe it's because they are crunchy and sweet. Now I'm reading that refrigerator pickles aren't safe? Right?

    Here's the recipe that I use:

    1 c. distilled white vinegar
    1 T. salt
    2 c. white vinegar
    2 t. celery seed
    6 c. sliced cucumbers
    1 c. sliced onions
    1 c. sliced green peppers

    In a med. Saucepan over med. heat, bring vinegar, salt and sugar to a boil. Boil until the sugar is dissolved, about 10 min.

    Place cucumbers, onions, peppers and celery seed in a large bowl. Pour the vinegar mixture over the veggies. Transfer to sterile containers and store in refrigerator.
    --------------

    If this way of making these pickles isn't safe, can anyone tell me how to make them safe? We don't really like dill pickles (actually I hate them).

    Thanks - Val

  • lisazone6_ma
    Original Author
    14 years ago

    Wow - I was told I could keep the refrigerator pickles up to a year, altho I only have one jar left - we're eating them like crazy!! I'm very disappointed as well!

    I did cut a bit off of both ends of the cukes actually but they were still soft. I'll look into the pickle crisp stuff. I'm actually not a big dill pickle fan myself - I prefer the sweet pickles, but I do like one of those garlicky kosher spears - like you get at the deli with your corned beef sandwich! That's really what I'm after, but maybe you just can't get the same thing at home?

    Thanks for that recipe Linda Lou!

    Lisa

  • Linda_Lou
    14 years ago

    Lisa, what you are looking for is a fully fermented pickle. That is a deli style pickle. The one that is called the Claussen style would be the recipe I would suggest.

  • luke_oh
    14 years ago

    Lisa, Your talking about Half Sour Pickles, The kind that you get in a good Jewish Deli. I make mine in a crock, but I think that any glass or food grade plastic bucket will work. I'll dig out the recipe and send it to you. They're ready to eat in about 3-5 days. So good.

  • Linda_Lou
    14 years ago

    Luke,
    Those are the dangerous kind, they are not fully fermented and can support listeria if they sit at room temp. for the 3 to 5 days then go into the fridge. You either need to fully ferment cucumbers or make the quick pack to prevent food borne illnesses. In only 3 days you cannot get enough acid in them.
    Remember, cucumbers are low acid vegetables and all that acid is necessary to prevent botulism, listeria, etc.
    It is the fermenting process that will make the right amount of natural lactic acid for safety.

  • mellyofthesouth
    14 years ago

    Linda Lou,
    Are the kind of pickles Val makes above safe? Seems like the vinegar ought to do the job.
    Melly

  • Linda_Lou
    14 years ago

    The ones Val makes have a lot of vinegar, so not a risk as those ones that sit on the counter for only a few days, without all the vinegar, then put in the fridge.
    Still, they would just be a short term refrigerated stored food since there is no processing done to them to kill molds, yeasts, etc. With the amounts of ingredients, this appears to be a cooking recipe, not meant for canning. Personally, I would not keep more than a month in the fridge.
    If you want to store something for long time then it would be necessary to find a recipe that is from a safe, reliable source and process them. I would check the Ball Blue Book or their site or any of the USDA/university websites or the Univ. of Georgia's So Easy to Preserve to see what they have.

  • val_s
    14 years ago

    Thanks for the reply. I probably should have started my own thread instead of hijacking this one but you get a little gun shy when you see that some people get upset when you start a new thread.

    I'm SO glad to hear that the pickles are safe. And yes, it is not a canning recipe. It's a refrigerator pickle recipe that I tell everyone whom I make them for to eat them up within 3 weeks.

    Not only do we (my family) LOVE these pickles but everyone I've made them for looks forward to them each year. I'm sure it's because they aren't cooked and stay crunchy.

    Anyway - thanks for the reply.

    Val

  • Linda_Lou
    14 years ago

    Val,
    There is no problem in starting a new thread. Go ahead. Please, don't be afraid of posting your questions.
    Even if we do have discussions from time to time, that is how we all learn.
    Glad your friends will get their pickles for gifts.

  • lisazone6_ma
    Original Author
    14 years ago

    Linda Lou - do you have or know where I could get the "Claussen" style recipe you mentioned? There are a couple of recipes in the Ball Blue Book that involve fermenting the cukes in a crock first, then proceeding with the rest of the recipe, but I don't know the differences in taste amongst them. If you have something similar to that "deli" style, I'd love to see it.

    Luke - I'd like to see your recipe as well. I'll just be sure to only make a small batch and eat them up within a week if they're a "refrigerator" style.

    I'll have to let my SIL know about the frige pickles not being safe - she's the one that gave me the recipe. I don't have it right here, but it does have lots of vinegar - it's just about the same recipe I used for the sweet pickle chips I canned, but it has a couple cups less sugar and you don't process them, just let them sit in the fridge.

    Lisa

  • Linda_Lou
    14 years ago

    The difference in these compared to a refrigerated pickle, some call the half sour, is that these are fully fermented. You wind up with enough natural lactic acid to keep them safe. The ones that you only keep on the counter for about 3 days are the ones you can get listeria from.
    We don't recommend making those any more. The recipes have been pulled from the USDA files for them.
    Fully fermented pickles may be stored in the original container for about 4 to 6 months, provided they are refrigerated and surface scum and molds are removed regularly. They are not kept for a full year as someone mentioned before they were told. Canning fully fermented pickles is a better way to store them.

    Fermented Dill Pickles  Refrigerated "Claussen" Type

    1 Gallon Jar
    Pickling Cucumbers
    12 Fresh Dill Flower heads, or
    2 Tbsp Dried dill weed and
    2 Tbsp. Dried dill seed
    10 to 12 Cloves Garlic
    6 to 8 Peppercorns
    1/4 Cup Vinegar
    1/2 Cup pickling Salt
    1 1/2 Quarts Water

    In 1 gallon jar add pickling cucumbers Rinse but do not wash the cucumbers. Add Dill flower heads or dried dill weed and seed, garlic, peppercorns, and vinegar. Dissolve salt in water and add to jar. Fill jar the remaining way with water. Add weight to keep cucumbers under brine.

    Fermentation sequence
    1. Clear brine  no cloudiness for 1 to 3 days
    2. Cloudy brine with gas formation, 2-3 days
    3. Cloudy brine  no gas formation, 5 to 6 days

    Pickles ready to eat after 10-11 days.
    Refrigerate pickles if you do not want to process them.

    To process the pickles
    Fill clean, sterilized quart jars with pickles to within 1/2inch of the top. Fill with heated brine. Wipe, seal, and process in a boiling water bath for 15 minutes. Remove and place on towel in a draft free area. Label and date. Store in a dark, cool area.

  • luke_oh
    14 years ago

    Lisa, I made these pickles last summer. I've been looking for a Jewish Deli recipe and this worked the 1st time. Linda Lou says the the Claussen type pickle is the same as the half sour fermented pickle. In my book they are not the same. I don't think that the Claussen pickle is fermented and the half sour pickle does not have any dill in the recipe. I like both of them so if you get a chance try them both. I'll do the best with the notes I have. I use a 5gal crock.
    2 gallons of pickling cukes( I used Boston pickling)
    1gal water(use distilled or RO)
    1/2 cup of pickling salt
    4 Tbls. pickling spices
    pepper corns(whatever)
    bay leaves
    12 garlic cloves
    add pickling cukes, spices and garlic to the crock
    Pour the salt brine over the cukes.
    cover the crock( I used Syran wrap loosely covered with a plate. Keep in a cool place. In a couple of days they will smell so good that you'll have to try one. Mine were done in 4 days.
    Put the pickles in jars, cover with the brine and put in the frig. or if you have enough space, you can keep the whole crock. The cold temp in the frig helps slow down the
    fermentation process.
    If I would change anything it would be to use less salt. They do absorb salt while in the frig and get pretty salty after 3-4 weeks. These are probably my favorite pickle.
    If you don't understand anything with the recipe let me know. I hope you'll get a chance to try them.

    Linda Lou, Does this recipe sound safe to you? Would it be safe to lower the salt content?

  • Linda_Lou
    14 years ago

    No, I have already explained why this is not safe. They are not fermented enough to provide the safe level of lactic acid. Those cukes are low acid veggies. You must bring an acid level up high enough to prevent botulism and listeria in any low acid food. Unless you either FULLY ferment pickles or do the quick pack with plenty of vinegar, they are not safe.
    Making these and putting in the fridge will not make them safe no matter what. You will not have enough lactic acid in them.
    I am not saying they are the same , but the Claussen type is the closest thing that would be safe. The recipe I posted is FULLY fermented and will then have enough acid to keep them safe.
    Please reread the post I made above about listeria in the refrigerator pickles.

  • Linda_Lou
    14 years ago

    Let the cucumbers ferment until evenly colored (olive green) or evenly translucent throughout. It may take longer than the 11 days. It depends upon the temp. at which they ferment.
    Never cut back on the salt when fermenting, it is needed to cause fermentation. If you don't use the whole amount of salt they won't ferment, but spoil instead.

    This is now the more often recommended recipe for fermenting.
    Dill Pickles
    Use the following quantities for each gallon capcity of your container.

    4 lbs of 4-inch pickling cucumbers
    2 tbsp dill seed or 4 to 5 heads fresh or dry dill weed
    1/2 cup salt
    1/4 cup vinegar (5 percent)
    8 cups water and one or more of the following ingredients:
    2 cloves garlic (optional)
    2 dried red peppers (optional)
    2 tsp whole mixed pickling spices (optional)
    Procedure: Wash cucumbers. Cut 1/16-inch slice off blossom end and discard. Leave 1/4-inch of stem attached. Place half of dill and spices on bottom of a clean, suitable container. For more information on containers see "Suitable Containers, Covers, and Weights for Fermenting Food," . Add cucumbers, remaining dill, and spices. Dissolve salt in vinegar and water and pour over cucumbers. Add suitable cover and weight. Store where temperature is between 70ºF and 75ºF for about 3 to 4 weeks while fermenting. Temperatures of 55º to 65ºF are acceptable, but the fermentation will take 5 to 6 weeks. Avoid temperatures above 80ºF, or pickles will become too soft during fermentation. Fermenting pickles cure slowly. Check the container several times a week and promptly remove surface scum or mold. Caution: If the pickles become soft, slimy, or develop a disagreeable odor, discard them. Fully fermented pickles may be stored in the original container for about 4 to 6 months, provided they are refrigerated and surface scum and molds are removed regularly. Canning fully fermented pickles is a better way to store them. To can them, pour the brine into a pan, heat slowly to a boil, and simmer 5 minutes. Filter brine through paper coffee filters to reduce cloudiness, if desired. Fill jar with pickles and hot brine, leaving 1/2-inch headspace. Adjust lids and process pints 10 min. quarts 15 min. in a boiling water bath canner.

  • luke_oh
    14 years ago

    linda lou,
    Thanks, I'll try this recipe next year. My pickles did turn the olive green and were translucent.

    Luke

  • annie1992
    14 years ago

    LindaLou, based on a suggestion from my favorite extension service director (you know, the one who tests my pressure gauge, LOL) I tried water from here in town, water from the well at the farm and distilled water in gallon jugs at the store. The pickles are always soft, whether they are bread and butter pickles, sweet pickles, dill pickles. It doesn't matter if they are whole, sliced, spears, chunks. Your sweet pickles will stay sufficiently crisp for about 6 months, after that they get too soft too. I try to eat them up in 6 months. The only ones that ever stayed crunchy were the ones that I open kettle processed for Dad at his insistence. And yes, for everyone here, that is NOT a safe canning method for pickles or anything else.

    It's a good thing I don't like sour pickles of any kind, although Elery loves them. Sigh. Funny, I love sauerkraut, but not pickles. Ashley only likes the dilled beans because they do stay crunchy, so Elery is going to have to be happy with those.

    Annie

  • Linda_Lou
    14 years ago

    Annie,
    That is just odd. I have no idea then why they would turn out soft. I know the USDA guidelines say you can boil the water, let sit overnight, then use the water. That is their suggestion.
    Sometimes my sweet pickle chunks get soft after sitting in the jars, but it is closer to a year. Then, I find if I put them in the fridge they crisp up.
    Sure wish I could eat those pickles ! I have tried even a slice or two and they just have too much sugar.
    My dh won't eat the dilly beans because he says they are "fuzzy". He can't stand the texture. He is really funny about textures of food. I only made a few jars this year. I was given some free green beans and didn't want to pressure can them.