Cindy,

As far as a good shell bean in Tennessee, I would try one of the following: Sulphur Bean, Pinto, Taylor's Dwarf Horticultural, Rattlesnake, or Cherokee Trail of Tears.

One thing that IÂm thing about is that you are using raised beds. For shell (shelly) beans, you need a lot more space then if you were growing beans for fresh (green bean) use. The reason is that the bean plants will keep producing if you keep them picked (pole beans, that is). If you wait until they are mature (or almost mature), the stage for shelly beans, then they will pretty much stop producing. That is why you need MUCH more space. My quick guess at a harvest would be that you would get 3 to 4 pounds from a typical 20 foot row with whatever variety you are growing.

I'm hoping that somebody else replies since there are a few that frequent here that can give you some good suggestions and talk with much more experience than I have on shell beans.

Paul

Actually, Paul, even at that stage, if conditions remain clement, the vines will start producing flowers and fuit again.

Most of my bean varieties were grown strictly for seed, this year. When I cleared the vines of almost-dry pods, they started bearing again almost immediatly. Picked my last fresh bean in November, when a killer frost finally got them.

Plus let's keep in mind that, unlike bush beans, pole beans do not come in all at once. So Cindy will be harvesting shelly beans on an on-going basis. Which, so far as the plant is concerned, is no different that keeping immature pods picked. The plant has a total biomass it can support, and will push to that limit.

Cindy: For shelly beans I like the larger varieties, such as Rose, Corky, and Kentucky Goose.

Granny Messenger (which might be the same as Old Time Golden Stick) is a Tennessee heirloom bean that has a golden color, and makes a good shelly bean.

But any bean can be used as a fresh shelly. Some are more mealy and grainy than others, and you'll have to experiment to find those you like. Chances are, if you like the variety as a snap bean you'll like the taste of it as a shelly, although the texture issue would still have to be addressed.

Thanks for the help. I don't have a lot of space as you guessed. My area devoted to the beans is about 4 x 5. Maybe that is not enough.
I'm not even sure I'm using the correct terminology- "Shelly beans or shell beans". Are horticulture beans- shell beans? I was thinking of something like pinto beans but perhaps an heirloom variety that was more unusual or interesting. I want to grow something that is tasty when cooked up like you cook pinto beans. When I look at garden catalogs, I get very confused in the bean section because it seems almost all can be both green beans and shell beans. Then I'm further confounded because almost all of the catalogs with a good selection of beans are from the north. When I look at those from the south, I don't see many choices for beans except green beans and lima beans. I'm going to try Dixie white butterpea as a small lima this year, but was hoping to get another type of cooking bean to try. Sorry to be rambling, but as you can see, I have a lot to learn :-).

Cindy: From a culinary viewpoint beans are divided into three groups:

Snap beans: These are the whole pod, eaten raw or cooked, usually before the seeds start to fill out. In the south, particularly the mountain south, there is a preference for pods that are filled out, however.

Shelly beans: AKA shell beans, green shell beans, fresh shell beans. These are the fresh seed, before the pods start to dry. The beans are pulled from the pods and cooked (or canned), and the pods discarded.

Dry beans: AKA shuck beans, leather britches, and others. The pods are allowed to dry fully, then the beans are shucked. Usually the pods are discarded and the beans cooked. For leather britches sometimes the whole thing (that is, dry pods and dry beans) are cooked and eaten.

Dry beans usually are grown from bush varieties rather than pole varieties for various reasons. There's a discussion about this very thing over at the vegetable forum.

"Green beans" is a synonym for snap beans, which is why you see them cataloged that way. And, btw, any bean can be used in any of the three stages. Sometimes a particular variety is better one way or another, is all.

Given your space requirements I would plan on pole beans for maximum productivity. Erect two trellis on a n/s orientation. Make them 5 feet long and at least 3 feet apart. Then use strings or netting to construct the actual trellis. You can grow 50 pole bean plants on each of those trellises, which should give you plenty for continual eating, and even some to can or freeze for the winter.

Horticultural beans confuse everyone. There is no official class of beans that falls into that category, nor have I ever been able to find out what characteristics they share in common. As a rule, horticultural beans are used in the shelly or dry stages. In the south we just call 'em "soup beans."

Cindy,

There are only 3 places on the web that I know of to get pole shelling (horticultural) beans. May I suggest that you get a sample of the Goose beans that Gardenlad mentioned and give them a try. They were a standout in my North Alabama garden last year. Pods made 4 to 6 beans each with the pod turning pale pink at the shelly stage. The beans were HUGE and delicious.

I have a non-commercial black shelling bean that is also very good but it is not as large as the Goose beans.

Fusion

Thanks Fusion and Gardenlad. I have a better understanding now. I also looked up the discussion you mentioned in the vegetable gardening site and read that. It is wonderful to have the gardenweb with knowledgeable folks like you to learn from! Fusion, you mentioned there are only 3 places on the web to find the beans. I googled "Goose beans" but didn't get them. Do you mind telling me the websites? Thanks again!
Cindy

Cindy, I think he meant only three places to find Horticultural beans listed.

I have the KY Goose on my seed list. If you want a copy, email me off-list. Or, if you join AHSC as we've been discussing, specify you want it as your free seeds, and that's what I'll include.

Hi bean lovers:
I have a bean I have saved year to year, garden to garden, called Jumbo. It is a bush bean wide, flat, and very long. The largest bean I have ever seen. The original seed was from Burpee and it was labeled as a hybrid. I read some where that it was a cross of Kentucky Wonder and a Romano bean. However, it has come true to type for me. Is any one else growing this bean? I am not into giant veggies but a huge green bean is less difficult to find at harvest time.
Mark

Mark, there are no hybrid beans. At least, not in the way we normally think of hybrids; i.e., as proprietary F1 plants. All beans are open pollinated.

So, Burpee may have called it a hybrid in a vain attempt to prevent seed saving.

Out of curiousity, do you have any problems with those large beans pulling the plants over?

I do understand that beans are self pollinating and I typically grow them side by side, save the seed and so far have observed no crosses. Yet, I see many beans labeled as hybrids. I understand hybrids as a crossing of two inbred lines or two other wise uniform strains. I understand the basic principles/concepts of hybrid crosses, inbreeding, linebreeding, backcrossing, topcrossing, etc. I used to raise some fine poultry. Even imported a trio from KY.
Now here is my two cents on the hybrid subject. I believe, (as opposed to know) that seed companies sometimes do cross varieties and call them a F1 cross but after initial crossing and selection grow out from the original selection from year to year. In another words they don't have workers in south america or where ever tediously taking pollen from one variety of bean, or tomato etc. to another thousands of times to produce this year's F1 (or so they say) seed crop. So yes you can save the seed and they will come true to type year to year. And, yes "hybrid" is a vain attempt at least with some veggies, to discourage seed saving.
I have commonly read that some crops, watermelons in particular will cross and must be isolated. However, one year I grew Charleston Grey, Crimson Sweet, and Yellow Doll (maybe Yellow Baby) and the next year I had a lot of volunteers. Guess what I harvested? All three types separate and distinct. Perhaps a third year would have yielded crosses. I don't know. Gardening seems to be filled with its own set of myths. Maybe garden myths should be a forum? Anyway my "mistakes" are what led me into seed saving and heirlooms etc.
Now about those beans, yes they kinda lean over, but all my bush beans seem to lean over. Jumbo sends up a short runner vine above the bush and so could probably use some support. Wish I could say they are so massive that they pull the plants over, but I am not in the seed selling business!
Am I on the right track?

>Am I on the right track? Generally I'd say so. With one exception. Most new bean varieties do not result from intentional crosses, but from sports or mutations that appear. The breeder then selects that wild card and breeds it for production.

That, for instance, is how the Kentucky Blue came about.

Regarding the cucurbits. Nothing says they _will_ cross, only that they are suseptible to it, being both insect pollinated and, in some cases, outbreeders.

Another point: Not all genetic changes are readily perceptible. So, it's possible the varieties you grew look and taste as if they are true to type. But there could be many genetic differences that are recessive genes. Could be that if you grow them again those recessives can reinforce each other, and you'd get something strange and different.

Not better nor worse, necessarily. Different just means different.

I had the opposite experience when I tried to stabalize a C. pepo squash that had resulted from an unintentional cross between at least three other varieties. When the smoke cleared away I had five distinctively different squashes.

Yup, I tend to stay away from curcubits as far as seed saving goes . They seem to be very, very, prone to crossing with whatever is a potential mate in the neighborhood. I know I could hand pollinate and bag, and maybe one day I will. One nice thing is that we can usually eat our culls. Anyway, those Jumbo beans are sweet and tender. Email me if you want to swap some seed or some edible alliums. One of these days I'll get a trade list organized.
Thanks
Mark

Cindy, The suggestions you have been given cover only modern commercial beans. What people grew and in fact still grow here in TN was a compromise between green beans and shelly beans: Cutshort aka Shortcut, aka Cornfield beans. I have grown a couple dozen types of them over the years, I have about a dozen I still grow, some local, some from SSE. I wrote the article on Cutshort beans that came out recently in Seed Savers Exchange, if you will email me I can send you the article. Too long to post here. Donna

Donna,

I'm a non-listed member of SSE but I have not taken the time to read anything from them since the seed listing back in Feb '04. Is that article in the harvest '04 edition? I do look forward to reading it! I've never made a connection between green beans and shelly beans (beans that are at the top for fresh shelling), but it makes sense. Thanks Donna!

Paul

And if things weren't confusing enough, I notice that the supermarkets are now selling "green beans" in one bin and "pole beans" in another. As if the two were mutually exclusive.