Take the seeds you want, tape up the packages & send the rest on to your dad. I've done it before. No problem. My only suggestion is to send the seeds in a padded envelope to avoid them being crushed in the mechanized postal system.

I just saw a little article in a past issue of Herb Companion magazine - they did test mailings with several different methods for packaging seeds. The most successful way was in a box - even the padded mailer wasn't always enough protection for the seeds.

There is no problem with irradiation. Only incoming mail to the Goverment Offices in Washington DC is irradiated.

The type of seed being sent dictates the type of packaging.

For small seeds such as peppers, tomatoes, ect, no padding is needed. I've sent out thousands of coin envelopes with tomato seed over a many year period from my SSE listings and not once has there ever been seed damage reported back to me, and SSE members would do so.

However if you're sending bean seed or corn or larger seed , then boxing it up is best.

So again, no one way to send seeds, the size of the seeds and perhaps inherent fragility being the main factors that determine the packaging.

Carolyn

The first tomato seeds I ever recieved in a trade were sent with no padding, and arrived here as dust.

As I result, I always use padding; usually a padded envelope, but sometimes just bubble wrap in a regular envelope.

Oddly enough, I've recieved numerous unpadded packages of tomato- and pepper-seeds since, and never had that problem again. Or, at least, with no more than one or two seeds damaged----not enough to worry about complaining about.

So, as Carolyn points out, the odds of tomato or pepper seed getting damaged are slight. But sure as shooting, the one time it happens will be with a variety you really had your heart set on. And the trader won't have anymore to send.

For large seeds I think anyone who mails them unprotected by padding of some sort is just asking for trouble.

So, as Carolyn points out, the odds of tomato or pepper seed getting damaged are slight. But sure as shooting, the one time it happens will be with a variety you really had your heart set on. And the trader won't have anymore to send

The trader?

Just look at all the companies who send small seeds NOT in padded mailers and I think you can assume that it does work almost 100% of the time.

If the trader has no more seeds one can usually do what's called BUY the seeds. LOL

I'm being a bit sarcastic here, and Gardenlad and I know each other, but that's only b/c I am NOT a fan of trading seeds, for many many reasons.

Rare stuff exchanged between two folks who know each other? OK, it usually works. But as far as I'm concerned the X pollination rate with traded seeds can be awfully high in addition to the fact that I like to see folks support those mostly small independent companies that do make these varieties available to us and without your support find it hard to stay in business.

And here I'm going back to the original post which was about SSE seeds, so I assume we're talking in general abou t heirloom veggie seeds.

Carolyn, all for supporting the "little guy" in the monster seed business. Not all seeds need to be purchased, but I hope some will be.

I've tried every type of seed imaginable in a white envelope without padding. Never had a crushed seed. So I say it is worth the chance.

If you're worried about a padded not being enough protection, than just wrap the seeds in some newspaper or bubble wrap before putting them in the padded envelope.

I've sent and received lots of different types of seeds in plain, unpadded envelopes and only once has there been a problem - small bean seeds crushed beyond redemption!

I'm also in favour of buying seeds from the littlies. I don't particularly like seed trading per se. I prefer to distribute seeds gratis - well almost. I do like SAE. And occasionally people send seeds back unasked for as a thank you.

Raymondo, it isn't trading vs. free distribution that Carolyn objects to. It's the very idea of exchanging home-grown seed.

She has some good arguments in favor of her position; the primary one being that the majority of gardeners (even, I'm sad to say, SSE listed members, who you would think know better) rarely take proper steps to assure seed purity and genetic vigor. As a result, a large proportion of it is cross pollinated and won't grow true to type.

To some people that doesn't matter. All they want is something different in the garden, hopefully with great flavor. But for those of us for whom this matters, cross-pollinated seed can be a real problem.

When I first got started with heirlooms about 15 years ago I did a lot of trading. And I talk to many people who trade heavily today. If anything, the problems are even worse, nowadays, because there are so many more people trading seeds; many of whom aren't even aware of concerns like seed purity and genetic vigor. And, apparently, the problem of improperly saved seed has grown exponentially as well.

But all of that is off-topic. The basic question is whether to pad or not. My position is simply that for the few extra pennies it takes to protect the seed, it's better to be safe than sorry. So I always use padding.

The official position of the Appalachian Heirloom Seed Conservancy, btw, is that padded envelopes be used anytime seed is mailed.

>If the trader has no more seeds one can usually do what's called BUY the seeds. Gimme a break, Carolyn. You know as well as anybody that that isn't always possible. How many of the 10,000+ known tomato varieties are commercially available? The fact is, very often the _only_ way to obtain seed is through trading.

>If the trader has no more seeds one can usually do what's called BUY the seeds. Gimme a break, Carolyn. You know as well as anybody that that isn't always possible. How many of the 10,000+ known tomato varieties are commercially available? The fact is, very often the _only_ way to obtain seed is through trading.

Sorry GL, no break. LOL

Most of the commonm trading we see online has to do with the more common varieties, and it's in that context that I made the comment about a trader not having anymore seeds.

Sure, there are lots of varieties out there that aren't traded, that's a given.

If it's rarer stuff a person is looking for, go to SSE or one of the other seed saving organizations. But that's not trading, And trading of common varieties is what I've been talking about.

Good heavens, I just in the last two year s have offered almost 300 tomato varieties here at GW, most of them not in commerce , and said very clearly that I didn't want any trades. At all. And others are the same way.

The route to veggie heaven is not paved with seed trading, from my perspective. LOL

Carolyn

>But that's not trading,If you use the word "trading" strictly to mean I send you something and you send me something, then you're correct. But most people use it more broadly, to mean seed obtained from other than commercial sources. Thus, if you send me a packet of seed just because I asked for it, then that would be grouped as a trade.

Personally, I think of seeds obtained from SSE members and and other seed saving organizations as trades.

> Most of the commonm trading we see online has to do with the more common varieties, and it's in that context that I made the comment about a trader not having anymore seeds. I'm not sure I fully agree with that, even if we confine the discussion to on-line trading----which is only one venue. But do you have any idea how many seed-exchange forums and mail-lists there are out there in cyber-land? It's an incredibly large number.

Sure, many times we're looking at the more commonly available varieties, particularly on lists that are dominated by a few individuals with respected opinions. Any time such folks talk about a variety it very quickly
becomes popular. And often becomes commercially available because of that.

> If it's rarer stuff a person is looking for, go to SSE or one of the other seed saving organizations.This gets a bit hairy. Whether you call this trading or not, many of the reasons you have for _not_ trading also apply to seeds obtained from members of these organizations. Just one example, which I've used before: Jeff Nekola told me that 80% of the pepper seeds he's obtained from SSE members does not breed true to type.

>The route to veggie heaven is not paved with seed tradingAgreed. With the proviso that if you know the grower's philosophy of maintaining seed purity, then it can be.

Maybe I've misunderstood...why is acquiring seed from SSE not considered trading?

By trading I gather we're not talking so much about the manner of exchange but the manner the seeds were grown and saved. The inference being traded seeds are homegrown seeds and less likely to be pure.

Maybe I've misunderstood...why is acquiring seed from SSE not considered trading?

Trading to me and many others implies an exchange of something, seeds included.

When one sends a request to an SSE lister it's a one way request. Seeds are requested, and seeds are sent back to the person requesting them. Yes, some SSE members who are long time friends do exchange ( trade) seeds outside of the confines of the formal request process, but that's different.

(By trading I gather we're not talking so much about the manner of exchange but the manner the seeds were grown and saved. The inference being traded seeds are homegrown seeds and less likely to be pure.)

Tom, I think that different persons have different ideas of what trading means; I've just stated what I mean.

I can't see an association between the manner in which plants were grown and seeds produced re trading Anyone can do anything they want to with their saved seeds; trade them for other ones, give them away, sell them, etc.

I also do think that a lot of homegrown seed that is shared is not pure.

That's not just a wild guess on my part, it'
s the result of posting online about tomatoes and other veggies at several different webistes since about 1990 and seeing how many folks receive crossed seeds, as well as looking at some of the listings in the SSE Yearbook, at some seed source websites, etc..

Not everyone takes caution with respect to seed saving; that's just the way it is.

Carolyn

Just out of curiousity, Carolyn, how _would_ you classify seeds from SSE.

By the definitions you use, it's not trading. If I understand you correctly, if I send you A and you send me B, that's a trade. Fair enough. If I ask you for seeds, and you send them, gratis, then that's sharing. At base, a gift. Not a trade, because nothing is exchanged. OK, fine.

But with SSE, there is an exchange. I send you money, and you send me seed. In any other part of our system, that's called buying and selling. But SSE insists its listed members are _not_ selling seed. If that's so, what do you call such an exchange?

By the same token, what if I send you an SASE and you send me seed? Is that a trade? Or is it something else?

How, too, would you classify the relationship between you and Craig. Sometimes you send him seed. Sometimes he sends you seed. But there isn't a one-on-one thing. Maybe, long term, it evens out. Maybe not. Would you say that you and he are _not_ trading seed. A friend in Colorado and I have the same sort of relationship with beans. Neither of us keeps track of how many varieties we send each other, nor what we spend on postage. But, if you were to ask me, I would say I was trading with her.

What it boils down to is that, just like when we try and define "heirloom," things aren't quite as cut and dried as they at first seem.

All that aside, I think what's confusing people is your fundamental reason for not trading; no matter what it's called.

And that is because home-grown seed---whether distributed as gifts, as part of a one-on-one trade, or sold---has a greater potential for being impure (and lacking in genetic vigor) than does commercial seed.

And that's the basic issue. For folks like you and me, for whom seed purity is important, home-grown seed has to be generally suspect. So we either choose our trading partners carefully, or don't trade at all.

>Not everyone takes caution with respect to seed saving; that's just the way it is. No argument at all. But the fact is that people who do not take proper caution aren't all that concerned, either, with whether or not what they recieve in trade is pure. So it works out for them just fine. Most of the time, if they ordered a variety that was supposed to be, say, yellow, and it grows bi-colored tomatoes, rather than being upset they are ecstatic.

What saves them is that the most commonly traded veggies--- tomatoes and beans---happen to be ones which are least likely to be crossed. Once you start getting into things like peppers and cucurbits, all bets are off. But again, do they really care? Most gardeners, I submit, don't. And Chileheads, in particular, don't. They just want to grow as many different varieties as possible. Purity is not an issue for the majority of them.

So, does that make home gardening 'GOOD' or 'BAD'? genes are continuing on moreso than if only BigBox hybrids were grown. But, if theyre crossed, they may be only genotype (hidden) not phenotype (expressed) good genes.

Im starting my first real try at veggie seed saving this coming year (saved some flowers last year) and im trying to make it idiot proof. One genus/specie at a time (depending on how close relatives cross.) Ive got several beans, but one Vigna (Asparagus bean), one Lunatus (Lima Bean), and my common beans have different seed types.

I think buying seed from small companies is a good thing, but one reason a lot of people are interested in these type of plants is the independance to save seed. Should only those with a 1/4 acre to devote to a crop grow for saving?

Neither good nor bad per se, Garnetmoth.

What you have to understand is that there are several types of gardeners who save seed.

There are those who save seed only for their own use. These types may or may not take adequate measures to assure seed purity and genetic vigor. If it doesn't matter to them, then there's no problem. By and large, these folks are not growing seed, as such. They're just saving seed as an adjunct to growing vegetables.

There are those who save seed for their own use, and to trade with others for different seed. Here, again, they may or may not take adequate measures. There is, unfortunately, strong evidence that the majority of them---even those belonging to seed saving organizations like SSE---do not. That leaves the gardeners on the far side of the trade in a quandry. Again, if they only want something new and different in their garden, no sweat. But if they _are_ concerned with purity and vigor, how can they assure that the seed they recieve meets their standards? That is the issue that Carolyn raises.

She---like myself, and hundreds of other serious seed savers---is concerned with those issues. When we look to acquire a particular variety we want _that_ variety, for one reason or another.

One solution, and the one Carolyn and I subscribe to, is to not do any general trading. This does not mean we don't exchange seed with others. It simply means that we pick and choose our trading partners carefully.

Where Carolyn and I differ is not in approach. It's only in how we define trading. She defines it strictly as an exchange of seeds between two people, whereas I define it more broadly as the acquisition of home-grown seed from any source.

Does this mean that we're the good gardeners and others are the bad gardeners? Not at all. It simply means we have certain standards we adhere to. You may or may not have similar standards. If you choose to share those standards it's concievable we might want your seeds. If you choose not to meet those standards all it means is that we don't want any of the seed you grow.

There's no value judgements involved. Simply a matter of choice as to how you approach seed saving and trading.

As to genotype vs. phenotype (most of us would have said said recessive and dominent, by the way) it doesn't matter. A cross is a cross. And in the F2 or F3 generation those genotypes could reinforce each other and the plants not grow true to type.

That's one of the reasons, for instance, that if we collect two of the same variety from different sources we maintain them as separate lines, rather than mixing the seed. Or why what may be the same variety, collected under different names, is maintained as separate named varieties. It's quite possible (in many cases, likely) that there are adaptive characteristics that are genetic in nature which we don't want to mix up.

BTW, you don't need to devote a quarter acre to a variety in order to save pure seed. Not even close to it. There are all sorts of techniques for assuring purity---such as caging, and hand pollinating, and growing only one variety of that species at a time.

And genetic vigor, except in very rare cases, doesn't require all that many plants. Corn is the biggie, with at least 100 seed-contributing plants required. Outcrossing brassicas come next, with a 30-plant minimum requirement. But most others will contain the full genetic spectrum of the variety with seed from only 15-20 plants.

In theory you can maintain both purity and vigor from just one fruit of inbreeders like tomatoes and peppers. But there are reasons why that's not a good practice, and three to five plants is the more normal.

Thanks for relplying Garden Lad, I wasnt sure if anyone would see this here, and didnt think about it until I posted.

I am committed to using netting and or cages, Ive often wondered about those who have 20 different type of flowers/veggies who only want to trade named seeds, but I dont know how often plants outcross.

I just wonder how you serious growers/collectors have time and or space for everything. I understand differences or crosses happen sometimes, but isnt there a point where naming is pointless because you have so many different types of varieties?

Kelli, who's mind is boggling!

>I just wonder how you serious growers/collectors have time and or space for everything.The short answer, Kelli, is that we don't. In fact, the big joke among my friends is that I need to buy Rhode Island in order to have enough room to grow everything I want.

As it is, I have two garden plots, the largest of which is only 16 x 80 feet.

I can't speak for others, but in my case I plan carefully, use intensive growing methods, grow vertically as much as possible, and isolate by time as much as by space.

For instance, until I learned Jeff Nekola's great system for isolating peppers, I would only grow one variety at a time. I still only grow one cuke at a time. I also isolate by species differentiation. That is, I might have three squashes growing, but they would be one-each of three different species.

BTW, it is interspecies crossing that are rare. The genus usually doesn't matter. For instance, your lunatus belongs to the Phaseolus genus. But there is no way it will cross with your common beans, which are Phaseolus vulgaris.

Thus, peppers are all Capsicum X; squashes Cucurbita X; etc. But the four pepper species do not cross; nor do the six squashes.

Another thing I do is get other gardeners to plant things for me. For example, when I was given a sample of Jimmy's White Cuke, I had three other gardener's grow it for me. Three that I trust, that is. In addition to assuring that the full genetic spectrum is covered, this protected the variety (a family landrace), so that if one of us had a crop failure it wouldn't likely effect the others.

If you don't already have it, I really recommend that you get a copy of Suzanne Ashworth's "Seed To Seed," which is filled with great information about how to grow pure seed. For a little more advanced treatment of the subject, check out Carol Deppe's, "Breed Your Own Vegetable Varieties."

I'd recommend, too, that you get involved with one or more of the seed saving organizations, such as SSE and AHSC. Been my experience that their members are always willing to share knowledge and experiences.