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Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Posted by terrybateman2 UK (terence_bateman@yahoo.com) on
Sun, Jul 24, 05 at 3:11

Hi- all, I have read a few posts on the above named varieties, and I feel that many of you are not giving them a fair crack of the whip,
Not all areas and soil types can produce the desired results one expects from both these varieties, it took me tw0 or three years to grow out Marihanas peace and get the desired results , a sweet mild creamy tomato, it proved to be exactly as described, and definatly worthy of an heirloom,it definatly doesnt like greenhous growth and is very prone to leaf deseases early on, it definatly prefers outside cultivation,and it appears to be a bit like goose creek in the fact that it is a two stage or more ripening situation regarding flavour, the real flavour only seems to develop right at the very end on the vine- many people pick them too early, I pick them 4 to 5 days after they have turned full colour or more, one has to learn to judge it just right from your own plants and conditions,sunset red horizon has produce very well here for me,I was dissapointed in them for a start but the bucked up there ideas when about half grown and produced a tremendous crop of very large tomatoes (some of them )but the rest are also a very good size as well - and so far I am very impressed with them.but it will probably take me three seasons to master them completly to my own satisfaction.
I feel the biggest mistake people make when trying out a new variety is not growing enough trial plants to start with, personaly I think a minimum of five plants for each new variety is the only way to test them out,as no two plants come the same or produce the same,for example I grew out some Tolshoi tomato plants this year and three gave tomatoes exactly as described whilst the others gave smaller tomatoes and inferior plants, you realy have to rogue them out and be utterly ruthless in plant selection -even after the half way stage of growth. its quite often the same with taste -two or more identical tomato plants with identical tomatoes on them can and have produced two different tastes ,one might be a bit bland and the other might be quite sweet, so give them a chance and grow a minimum of three to five plants when trialing them.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Terry,

You'll get more input on Marianna's Peace and Sunset Red Horizon ( Rostova) if you post in the regular Tomato Forum.

This Forum is not where comments about heirloom tomatoes is usually done and was this way when I came to GW many years ago.

Actually I first posted in this Forum and very quickly moved to the Tomato Forum at someones suggestion/.

If you look around here you'll see that folks are primarily looking for seed origins and sources for specific heirloom varieties of different veggies, fruits and flowers.

Trust me, lots and lots of folks have grown Marianna's Peace with lots and lots of feedback that you've never seen b'c you're new to GW. ACtually one GW member distributed seeds for it b'c he was so outraged by the price being charged at Tomatofest.

Less have grown Rostova b/c Ibsen was charging so much for the seeds and Anioleka Seeds, the origin of this variety, can't seem to keep them in stock.

Carolyn, who really suggests that you post your tomato comments where the majority of tomato interested folks will see and read them, which is NOT in this Forum.


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Carolyn- I am sorry but I realy thought Marihanas Peace and sunset red horizon (Rostova ) -I do know the history, were in fact heirloom tomatoes !!
Also Carolyn I am getting a little sick of you taking it upon yourself to interfear and comment on every single post I make-coupled with veiled threats you just issued on Kumato to me, If you dont mind I would like to work in a Caroline free zone in future without being overwhelmed -bullied- and pushed about all over the tomato forums just because it just doesnt quite fit in with your ideals of perfection as to how one should post or their content, its begining to get on my nerves a bit now having to do battle with you every time I post anything in any tomato forum whatsoever, I would be so gratefull if you would just leave me alone and stop meddling in my personal pleasure of reading about tomato growing from others, posting my own views on tomatoes and growing , being able to post in the heirloom forum with what I consider to be heirlooms- without you hovering over me waiting to pounce -as it were. there are probably thousands of people who actualy love and support you on these forums,and I dont blame them either -for the services you have given to tomato growing over the years, but that still doesnt give you the right to make my personal life a misery and critisise and try to bully me on every post I make :- so if you would back off for a while I would greatly appreciate it, I have no desire to a personal fight or critisism with you and as I said in my last Kumato post (Nuf-said )we shall see, nuf said -means I didnt wish to talk about it any longer-what part of nuf said dont you understand,please show some respect for my personal wishes & Carolyn -please-please -please -dont answer any more of my posts for some time, as I am getting fed up with it now and its begining to bug me a bit ;regardless of what you say (I just dont care what you say anymore ) marihanas Peace and Sunset Red Horizon are heirloom varieties and rightfully belong in the heirloom forum,I just dont care if I get maximum response about it or not ,other people are entitled to their opinions too-you know, without having you breathing down their necks and looking over their shoulders every time they post- you are suffocating free expression- by trying to dominate them with your strong minded views, its just not fair to others especialy "NEWBIES "- is it ???.


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Also Carolyn I am getting a little sick of you taking it upon yourself to interfear and comment on every single post I make-coupled with veiled threats you just issued on Kumato to me, If you dont mind I would like to work in a Caroline free zone in future without being overwhelmed -bullied- and pushed about all over the tomato forums just because it just doesnt quite fit in with your ideals of perfection as to how one should post or their content, its begining to get on my nerves a bit now having to do battle with you every time I post anything in any tomato forum whatsoever, I would be so gratefull if you would just leave me

Go your way in peace Terry.

And yes, both Marianna's Peace and Rostova are heirlooms, but as you can see for yourself heirloom tomatoes ARE discussed in the main tomato forum 99% of the time, as I told you above.

Post here if you wish, with very limited input.

There is no Carolyn free zone Terry, but after what you wrote above I'm wondering Terry, I'm wondering.

Carolyn, who I guess should apologize in advance for trying to help you ( an interaction now forbidden by you) find out how to list your tomato varieties at MY PAGE. Did that in the main forum right before coming here and finding out you didn't want me interacting with you . **The feeling is mutual**.Don't you understand that the reason I've been the main one interacting with you here is b'c few post here in this forum about tomatoes? I stop by b'c I also grow other heirloom veggies/fruits but only the tomatoes have a dedicated Forum of their own for posting, aside from hot peppers.


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Terrence, you go ahead and post wherever you'd like as long as the posts are within Garden Web guidelines. It's not the tail which wags the dog but some "tails" think that they do! The nice thing about posts on this forum is that they are not gone after 5 or 6 days. (There may still be one thread here which began in 2000!) On certain busier forums, we are then often informed that the same question was asked a week ago and yelled at for not seeing it then! Catch 22, no win either way!

Some certain members should look around the many regional forums and note the number of tomato threads. On those, not many "forum police" around to tell anyone where they'd like to see the question asked.

If someone doesn't want to answer a question on this forum, then don't reply! This is not a one-person forum with an all-knowing iron-fisted moderator. There are no doubt others who can reply and that reply in turn seen by others for a lot longer period than in other more active GW forums.

Incidentally, I am growing Marianna's Peace and Marianna's Conflict. The later is the regular-leafed version. Since Marianna's Peace is potato-leafed and with a certain type of fruit, and the pseudo type being something totally in conflict, it's only fitting that it should be called something else. Hence Marianna's Conflict!

Martin


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Post here if you wish, with very limited input.

...is what I wrote above.

No one controls where anyone posts at GW Martin, as you well know.

I had made two relevant suggestions/points:

About 99% of the time heirloom varieties are discussed in the main tomato forum, which is true.

Posting there would result in more input from interested folks, which is also true.

(On those, not many "forum police" around to tell anyone where they'd like to see the question asked.)

I am not forum police as you well know and it's not where ***I*** would prefer to see questions asked b'c I could care less, however the poster being new I also knew there would be more responses if threads about heirlooms were posted in the main tomato forum, which happens to be true.

It's not all about me Martin, although you would see it that way, as anyone who knows you could and would predict.

It's all about what might be **best for someone new** not that familiar with the various forums.

And why would I go ahead and help the same poster find out how to post his trade varieties as I did in the main forum?

To help Martin, not to hinder.

Carolyn, growing more weary of this all the time and having noted how so many of the experienced heirloom tomato growers have opted to cut back on posting at GW and spend more time elsewhere, as actually I've been doing myself, I think it's time for me to pursue that course of action even more strongly. I detest strife. I love to share what I know and to be of help where I can, but not at the expense of peace of mind re arguments and the like. I don't need it or want it and do have options.


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RE: Marianna's peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Yes, Carolyn, it was not always only you who kept telling people to post in certain "appropriate" forums. The other was Chickenman2! Great company, eh? I'm certainly pleased that you agree with me in most of my observations. It would just be lovely should you also practice the same!

Help or hinder? Each reply in each forum should be taken and judged at face value. One should not have to jump all over the entire Garden Web in order to find the entire story. If you wish to get real down and dirty, your continual telling people to visit and post on the Tomato Forum can be construed as advertising a commercial venture, YOUR book! Remember how many people jumped on Fusion when someone made a similar claim? If the shoe fits, wear it! Under the new GW management, I don't think that any member is above the rules. Someone recently thought that he was. He wasn't!

And since the topic of where to post has taken precedence over the thread topic, I'll mention my most recent findings. There are tomato topics in probably 25-30 different GW forums right now. That only covered the first 2 or 3 pages. One of the biggest surprises is that there were familiar names in almost every thread! One did mention the tomato forum but a followup reply was that the topic could not be found. Reply to that was that a search had to be done. (And everyone knows how GW's search feature works, or doesn't work!) Most of those posts were nice and friendly with no troll-like replies from jerks or snobs or wannabe moderators and forum cops or lonely people who don't fit into normal society. And the threads aren't gone in 5 days!

With that out of the way, I am one who would suspect any claim that Marianna's Peace is an "heirloom". We've already proved that it can be very unstable. The more that I hear about the variety, the more I am prone to think that it was a created heirloom and still is not stable. The two types are not even remotely similar at this point in their growth. If we have an "heirloom" which is 80% one way and 20% another, we don't have an "heirloom". It's just another unstable cross, a.k.a. hybrid! We've got 60-70 year old varieties which aren't considered "heirlooms" because they were commercial creations. But one can use them to create an "heirloom" in his back yard and that ain't right!

Martin


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Thanks chaps-and all those of you who privatly e-mailed me as well-about it,I was overwhealmed by your support and comments, as I thought I was alone out there trying to take a stand against what I thought was damn cheek, I expected a rapid backlash from it but I was very pleasantly suprised ,I am a peacfull-quiet sort of person in real life , and like to try to lead an uncomplicated reserved sort of life,with many friends in the tomato growing hobby,and I can safely say that it took me the whole of forty years experiance at tomato growing to finaly master it to my personal satisfaction,I failed many times along the way, mostly by not observing situations developing on the plants and crop until it was too late to act, but I stuck at it year after year slogging away at it, gleaning a bit of experiance from others year after year,(for example GW )when I finaly am very satisfied with my plants and crop, and have learned to anticipate things happening and take appropriate action in time,until now I have almost got it off to a fine art.but I am still learning-Mostly off GW,thanks chaps-and er! ladies of course.
I was very-very interested in the other form of Marihanas Peace, that I didnt know existed even, and would definatly like to learn more about this type-mainly as a matter of extra interest.


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

>We've got 60-70 year old varieties which aren't considered "heirlooms" because they were commercial creations.<

Depends on the definition you choose to use, Martin. The vast majority of heirlooms enthusiasts do _not_ exclude commercial introductions.

Those who do severely limit the category. Being as this is a thread about tomatoes, let's consider just some of the excluded tomatoes:

-All of the Livingston introductions.
-All of the Henderson introductions.
-All of the pre-1940 introductions from ag schools (i.e., Rutgers).
-Possibly even Brandywine.
-Probably every named variety from the latter 19th century.

Are you seriously suggesting that the tomatoes on this list are not heirlooms?


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RE: Marinnas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Negative on any overall suggestion, Garden Lad. Inclusion or exclusion of any given variety is up to any individual author. Even the term "heirloom" was originally only used for beans. As I understand it, it was borrowed from another author to describe certain tomatoes. Since then, "heirloom" has been used to describe just about any vegetable which is open pollinated. In the case of tomatoes, many are those created by gardeners or independent growers. Some of those growers were even associated with commercial ventures. When questioned about what makes the difference there, usually it's the commercial connection which negates any "heirloom" consideration. If someone kept a record of what was used, it's officially a manufactured variety. If some unknown cross shows up in a garden and is grown for 10 years, it's an "heirloom"! I do not personally feel comfortable with calling my old garlic an "heirloom" since I know where I got it and when. But since it didn't have a name then, and that I may possibly be the only one still growing it, anyone may call it an "heirloom" and name it after me. But it would not meet every requirement of every board in determining its status.

Nowhere is there an official board which determines what is or is not an "heirloom". Nowhere is there an official list of what is or is not an "heirloom". And after having heard of so many contrived histories, anything "new" within the past 15-20 years can be considered suspect. If only a small percentage of those may be proved to be manufactured "heirlooms", what about the rest of them. From a businessman's side, we all know that the surest way to make money on vegetable seeds is to include the word "heirloom" somewhere in the description.

Since Rutgers was mentioned, that would be a sticky wicket! Pre-1940 but "improved" in the 1940s. Can anyone prove that the pre-1940 Rutgers even exists? And what were the varieties used to create the original Rutgers? They were not "heirlooms" at the time since that term never applied to tomatoes then. They were simply other OP tomato varieties used to develop a better tomato for the public. The fact that it was done before 1940 at taxpayer's expense should have no bearing on if it should or should not be called an "heirloom".

Further, one need only look at the fallacy of the SSE Yearbook. It is highly touted as a great source of "heirloom" varieties. There is no official criteria which any variety must meet to be included other than open pollinated. Even a great many of the actual SSE new releases are nowhere within the supposed "heirloom" qualifications. One can't say that it has all been an organized scam but associating anything with the word "heirloom" puts more money in someone's pocket. Even SSE is banking on that this year!

Terry, indeed there seems to be considerable instability in Marianna's Peace. When both regular and potato leaf seedlings appeared, my initial intentions were to dismiss the regular one as a stray seed or something. However, the report of that revealed that perhaps 20% of the supposed original seed stock had that trait. That was a red flag which told me that that "heirloom" was just another nice hybrid that was rushed into the tomato public a few years too quick. Several GW members, including one who was involved in the release, told me to indeed grow out the odd one and consider it as a separate variety. I suggested that it be called Marianna's Conflict and that's what it is, a total conflict. That plant is currently exhibiting virtually everything different besides the leaf type. Too early to tell what exact differences will exist in the fruit as both types are somewhat equal in size and quantity. One seems to be going to have ridged shoulders and the other somewhat smooth. The single regular leaf plant has twice the amount of foliage than two potato leaf plants combined. Certainly, it's a monster and the overall largest plant in my home gardens! For seed purposes, both types got prime isolation locations. I'll have seed of both eventually for others to play with and study.

Martin


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

thanks Martin-that was very interesting regarding the M.P conflict seedling, I have made notes on that for future refrence,
My own Marihanas Peace, I have grown for the last three years from my own saved seed have always come exactly the same in plant type and growth.


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Martin, first, I'd like to see documentation on your statement that "heirloom" was originally applied just to beans. I don't believe that's correct.

Next, while some of the folks---most notably commercial seed houses and farmstand operators---have jumped on the heirlooms bandwagon, let's not confuse them with growers and collectors who have been concerned with this area for 30 odd years.

In all but one case, every legitimate definition of "heirloom" includes at least two factors: the variety must be open pollinated, and there is an element of time.

The most common time element used is 50 years. Because we are getting further and further from the time when hybrids began dominating, some people prefer using pre-1940 instead.

Is 50 years arbitrary? You betcha! But so what. In all walks of life, industry standards and customs of the service prevail when there is no authority as such. What makes you think that horticulture should be any different? We don't need an official board to sanctify such widespread custom.

The exception is found in the LeHoullier/Male rubric, in which two of the groups do not include the element of time. Those groups would be commercial introductions previous to 1940; family heirlooms, which have been passed down, one generation to the next; created heirlooms, which are the burr in your side, being modern OP varieties; and the Mystery Group, those that suddenly appear in the garden, due to natural crosses and mutations---what we used to call "sports.". Craig LeHoullier suggested the first three categories, and Carolyn Male added the third.

Your arguments would carry more weight if this rubric was more commonly adhered to. But the fact is, comparatively few heirlooms enthusiasts do so, because the element of time is missing.

The fact is, varieties created by Tom Wagner and other modern breeders are often very good; the equal of any true heirloom. And no doubt many of them will withstand the test of time. I have no doubt, for instance, that Green Zebra will be available to my grandchildren's gardens. But, until they do, most heirlooms enthusasts do _not_ consider them heirlooms, even though they are often erroneously identified as such.

I have no argument with you regarding the plethora of contrived stories, misuse of the word heirloom, and similar situations. But the fact is, seed catalog copy has always been filled with these sorts of distortions; glowing descriptions made up out of whole cloth; legends about the origination of a variety; renaming of other varieties either for marketing or other reasons.

Today, "heirloom" is in, so the copywriters jump on it. That doesn't make it right. And it doesn't turn a modern OP into an heirloom just because they want it to be so.

I will not comment on your SSE remarks, for reasons you know.

I also don't quite understand what you're trying to say about Rutgers. Of course they weren't heirlooms then (or maybe they were, only just not called that). But the point is, Rutgers is an heirloom today, under any definition used. Even the Rutgers Improved would now qualify. If I recall correctly, it's official date of introduction was 1947, which puts it well within the 50 year timeframe.

You seem to be concerned about taxpayer expense. Nobody else brought it up. But you prove my point: It doesn't matter what the source was. If it's open pollinated, been grown for at least 50 years, and is still around it's an heirloom by almost anybody's definition.

I'm also confused by your disdainful use of the word "manufactured." By your definition, every tomato since they started breeding them from wild stock is a manufactured variety. So what's the point?

>From a businessman's side, we all know that the surest way to make money on vegetable seeds is to include the word "heirloom" somewhere in the description. <

Actually, the surest way to increase profits is to include the word "Amish" in the description. :>)


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RE: Marianna's Peace

Garden Lad, the first use of "heirloom" in regards to tomatoes indeed was documented somewhere on the Internet, believe it or not! I forget what publication it was but I can't Google anything on it. There was an interview with Kent Whealey who was asked where that "heirloom" designation came from and that was the story that he related. The term supposedly was first used by a published author in describing beans. Hence permission was asked to apply it to tomatoes and other vegetables as well. Sooner or later, someone will find it or also recall it. You are into beans so you may have the original "heirloom" seed reference somewhere in your library.

As for "manufactured", you agreed that there is a "plethora of contrived stories" and then later say that you don't understand? There's probably 10 times more than have been reported in GW forums. Next generation of some E-Bay "heirlooms" are being created right now! And certain well-known growers were alleged to have created fancy histories to go along with their creations! Some supposed Black Forest "heirlooms" come to mind. Some of Hilton's fancy descriptions are also still around. There was probably a half dozen or more people selling supposed new "heirlooms" on the Internet this year and most were laughed at by those on the Tomato Forum. And Amish was indeed connected to some!

Oh yes, we do both agree on what constitutes an "heirloom" since we use a different standard than GW. If my grandparents grew a certain variety, and my children are still growing it 60+ years later, that's an heirloom without "". I also don't care which university developed this or that variety or when. The matter is simply that certain powers claim that exact criteria pertaining to one variety does not apply to another. Examples: Rutgers Improved 1943 is an "heirloom" while Wisconsin 55 1942 is not. Both of those schools were located in the centers of the two main tomato-processing areas of that period. Just because one got a head-start over the other, due to prior population densities and market demand, one produced "heirlooms" and one did not? Did it matter if someone like Livingston was working for his own company or Walker was working for the University of Wisconsin? It's not for me to decide what either should be called. All I can say is that WI55 and Rutgers are both over 60 years old and can't be an "heirloom" based on their nearly identical beginnings. But spurious Marianna's Peace IS an "heirloom"? If that is so, then there are NO rules for assigning an "heirloom" designation to any tomato variety.

Interesting also that you mention Green Zebra. I'm growing that plus Green Grape this year. Tigerella was grown last year. All 3 are considered as "created" and I was reminded of that several times last year in reference to Tigerella. Green Zebra and Green Grape are promoted as "heirlooms" but Tigerella is not? Tangella created at the same time and by the same grower as Tigerella and it IS an "heirloom"? If there's anything consistent in determining the designations of those 4 varieties alone, it's the absolute inconsistency!

Martin



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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

>You are into beans so you may have the original "heirloom" seed reference somewhere in your library.<

If true (I don't recall ever hearing that before), it would have been John Withee, who was _the_ name in collecting beans. At the time of his death he had something like 2,200 in his collection, all of which were left to SSE.

Question: Does this really matter? The heirloom designation, no matter what it's original source, is now applied to all veggies. This gives us a consistent name (if not consistent definition) at least. I well remember when nobody was sure whether to call them heirlooms, or heritage crops, or old timey veggies, or half a dozen other names.
>As for "manufactured", you agreed that there is a "plethora of contrived stories" and then later say that you don't understand?<

That's why I said I was confused. I read you to mean "manufactured tomatoes" and you're using it to mean "manufactured stories" to support spurious heirloom claims.

> Examples: Rutgers Improved 1943 is an "heirloom" while Wisconsin 55 1942 is not.<

Sorry, Martin, I'm not up on that controversy. But I'll say this catagorically: _anyone_ who claims that Rugers Improved is an heirloom and Wisconsin 55 is not is either a fool or is being contentious for it's own sake. One either uses a consistent definition or there's no sense even opening one's mouth.

This is a case where any consistent defintion has to fit both. For those who use the 1940 date, for instance, neither is an heirloom. For those who use 50 years, both are. Those who say "no commercial introductions" would have to exclude both. Those who subscribe to the "created heirlooms" concept would have to include both. Etc. There is _no_ rational way to include one of them as an heirloom and exclude the other.

>Green Zebra and Green Grape are promoted as "heirlooms" but Tigerella is not? Tangella created at the same time and by the same grower as Tigerella and it IS an "heirloom"? <

Depends on who's doing the promoting. Seed houses certainly are promoting them that way. And many tomato growers think they are growing heirlooms because of it; as do market growers. But, unless you subscribe to the "created heirlooms" concept, none of those are heirlooms. Plus there is the Tigerella/Mr. Stripey confusion to add to the mix. Not only are these all modern OP tomatoes, with the Tigerella/Mr. Stripeys you never really know what you are getting.


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Garden Lad, it may indeed have been Withee that was mentioned as the originator of the term "heirloom" seeds. Especially with his close ties to SSE It was detailed in an interview with a newspaper's garden editor and I didn't bother to note which paper was involved. My bad!

As for who determines is something is or is not an "heirloom", I would tend to use SSE as a guide or reference since they have been in the business of seed-saving a lot longer than anyone else. You find that SSE either tosses "heirloom" around willy-nilly or avoids it by calling something "unique". On their generic seed packets, the logo has Seed Savers at the top and Heirloom Seeds & Gifts at the bottom.

The Wisconsin 55 thing is not a major controversy. I've never contended that WI55 should or should not be called an "heirloom". It's just one of many examples from the years when developing better tomato varieties was an important thing to support the local industries and feed the nation. It happens to be one of the last of that era and well documented. (One who worked on the project in 1942 is still alive!) I don't care what it is called. Also don't know how Old's listed it in their catalog but Jung's has always listed it separate from Heirlooms or other types. But what gets me is that two varieties can have the same beginnings but one becomes an "heirloom" and the other is banned from such designation.

This is going to bring up another interesting discussion. Any unique vegetable which has been grown by a single person or family for many years is quick to be given the "heirloom" designation. Especially so if it's one that possibly never was offered commercially at any time. The question is going to be what to designate the Yellow WI55 as. Never available commercially, not a mutant of an existing variety, and grown primarily by a single gardener for over 60 years! Rather important qualifications involved there. And yet, we know its full pedigree. It will be interesting if that tomato would have to be accepted as an "heirloom" when the offspring of every other plant, in that 7-acre field, is not!

Martin


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

The more I read about this subject and the more I think about it, the better I like my own definition of 'heirloom'.

"An heirloom variety is one which has been maintained for many years by individual gardeners who save seed year to year. As such, it must be an open pollinated variety, since hybrid varieties cannot be maintained in this way."

There is no magic in the number 40 or 50 or any other number. An heirloom is simply a variety which is liked enough that someone (or several someones) found it worth keeping year after year for a very long time. A long time might be defined as long enough to pass it to the next generation, as with other heirloom posessions.

Being open pollinated is important only because it is a necessity for most seed savers. Few gardeners have the desire or ability to produce their own F1 hybrids. There is a world of difference between that and saving open pollinated seeds. But open pollination doesn't make a variety an heirloom if nobody cares enough to save it.

Jim


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Martin, given those criteria, I would definately call the yellow WI55 an heirloom.

Side question: If not a sport, and never grown commerically, where did it come from?

One of the questions raised in this discussion, is, what happens if the WI55 comes into normal trade channels. There's no doubt in my mind we'll suddenly see a host of legends about it (one of these days, in a fit of nothing better to do, I'm going to collect all the tall tales about Cherokee Purple). But that's a different problem from defining what is or is not an heirloom.

>But what gets me is that two varieties can have the same beginnings but one becomes an "heirloom" and the other is banned from such designation. <

We seem to be going in circles with this one. Who, exactly, is doing the including and who the banning? As I said above, there is no rational way that Rutgers Improved can be classed as an heirloom and WI55 not. They are, in all respects, birds of a feather. So they are either both heirlooms, or neither one is.

Let's keep in mind, too, that "heirlooms" is a collectors word. Believe me, none of the folks in Appalachia from whom I collect family heirlooms call them that. They're just the tomatoes, or beans, or okra, or whatever that they've "always" grown. Which is why I refer to them as "old time" veggies, when talking to such folk. "Heirlooms" just gets you a blank look, more times than not.

Jim: You're absolutely right; there is nothing magical about any time period. Assigning one is arbitrary at best. As it turns out, 50 years is the most commonly used figure, and if we're going to have a uniform definition we have to use some sort of standard.

The only problem I would have with your definition is that it doesn't exclude modern OP varieties. If I develop a new variety this year, then pass seed to my sons next year, it would fit your definition. There is no element of time involved. Basically, this puts it into the "created heirloom" category, a concept which I personally reject.

Ben Watson (who, by the way, has what is to my mind the best definition) sums up the time-in-grade question nicely. In the second of his three-part definition he says the variety must have been introduced more than 50 years ago. But, he continues, "fifty years is, admittedly, an arbitrary cutoff date.....The 50-year cutoff is a little like the convention of calling a 100-year-old highboy an "antique" while one that is only 99 years doesn't yet qualify."

I like that word "convention." That's what we're talking about. And the convention among heirlooms growers has always been at least 50 years. Some folks draw the defination more tightly. But I don't know any serious heirlooms collector/grower who uses a smaller figure, exept as noted above in the LeHoullier/Male rubric.

Speaking of which, there's a typo in my mention of it. Carolyn contacted me to point out, jocularly, that she added the fourth, not the third, category. She's right, of course, three plus one equals four, not three. Which is why I'm not a mathamatician by trade. :>)

Let me make one thing clear, too. I have nothing at all against modern OP varieties. There are some really fine varieties being developed today, in many catagories. You'd go a long way, for instance, finding a bean to top Bill Best's NT Half-Runner. And many of Tom Wagner's tomatoes have already proven their worth. But just because they're good doesn't make them heirlooms. Only the test of time does that.


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'Heirloom ' History

OK, I found it! Never thought to go right to the source since I hadn't seen it there before. It indeed was Kent Whealey asking permission to use "heirloom" and it was 1981. And it was indeed your bean friend who had stole it from another bean man!

SSE should be the one who sets the standard, according to those who defend SSE to their last dying breath. In that same breath, they will say that SSE is wrong. SSE was around 6 years before the "heirloom" designation was used to refer to anything but beans. It was SSE that should then be the one who decides what they are going to call "heirloom". Anyone taking it on themselves to set up their own system would have to use the SSE standards as a base. If not, then whatever system used can NOT be called "heirloom". SSE established the game rules and set up the playing field. And by the originators rules, WI55 and Rutgers come under the exact same designation. Both are simply great commercial varieties which were the best of their time and good enough to still be around 60+ years later.

Garden Lad, is I said, I don't care what WI55 is called as as Jung's considers is a class all by itself. And that's what it is. The last time that I looked at the site, it indeed was a class of one. If it were to have company, what could they add? How about one of the grandparents, John Baer? That was a commercial variety. What about a parent, Redskin? That's another old commercial variety which had come very close to extinction. I'm growing both of those also for very special reasons!

As for how Y55 can exist and not be a mutant of another variety, one has to have an existing stable variety before one can have a mutant of one, correct? If it were a color mutant, which was it a mutant of? With many of the pieces to the puzzle here, I know where WI55 got some of its various traits. The foliage growth and fruit size came from John Baer. The color and fruit shape came from Redskin. (It was also that side where the disease resistance came down.) I needed to grow all 3 of those along with Y55 for side-by-side comparison to see if a stray seed accidentally got into the Kenosha field. At the moment, it appears to be right between WI55 and John Baer for foliage. Were it not for the fruit color, it could be passed off for John Baer.

Terry, learning anything after all this? Or does it make you want to go back to growing Sutton's F1 Buffalo. I've got it here! Seed for that is so pricey that I'm afraid to grow it!

Martin


Here is a link that might be useful: SSE's Heirloom Description


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Hi- Martin, & of course the others too,
Yes-I am learning quite a lot, and find it all very interesting indeed,
we have a lot of interesting tomatoes over here from seed saved by generations of grower families etc, also runner beans that are outstanding, and one or two garden peas- on seven foot vines saved from some aristocrats landed gentry private collection etc, the runner beans were called (stenners long beans ) and were mainly for competition work, and grew to three feet long and as straight as a yardstick, then there are some more generaly available called Liberty-that were nearly as good, the main problem with all this is that by and large- most of the true history was lost before they sarted keeping records, which is a shame realy.
Martin- the variety Suttons- Buffalo tomato is readily available over here in the UK, at around $2.50 a pkt of about a dozen seeds, they sell them in all the popular garden centres, perhaps a hundred pkts on display at any one time, quite a nice tomato- very short jointed beef type tomato, the trusses all overlap each other, all the way up the stem, I am growing some at the moment, quite desease resistant, very good in low light areas where there is not much sun, as it doesnt stretch and grow leggy like some,


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Martin,

I leave it up to you whether or not SSE is the arbiter of what is or is not an heirloom. On that I have no comment--- and you can quote me on it. :>)

I still don't understand where Y55 came from. Was it bred? Did it suddenly appear in somebody's field? The name implies that it was a child of WI55, but you seem to indicate this is not so. Please clarify. I have no idea what the history of either 55 is, so your comments tend to be cryptic.


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RE: Yellow Wisconsin 55

Garden Lad, the Y55 story was hashed and re-hashed on the Tomato Forum and probably doesn't apply to this thread. Besides, we've been keeping it at a low-profile in case there were some major disappointments. That's why I've had to get as much of the pieces as I could so as to see if it was bonafide or a legend. All of the pieces have come together to show no indication that it was anything but what it was said to be. It was one single plant in a 7-acre field when the WI55 was rushed into seed production in 1942. It was a stabilized cross using at least 4 named varieties to develop it over a number of years. It would have been simply another seed in Lot 55 from the previous year. That batch was never given a name until release and in keeping with the competition between UW and Rutgers, it became simply Wisconsin 55.

As a University of Wisconsin project, it was the students who did the field work. One was 18 or 19 at the time of collecting the fruit for processing. Only one plant was discovered with yellow fruit instead of red. That youngster kept some of those seeds and later grew them in his own gardens over the years. This continued right up until last year and no doubt this year as well. The irony is that he never knew that there was not also a yellow version of WI55 released commercially! The person involved was not just a simple gardener who happened to have an advanced education. He is Dr. Robert Raabe, retired plant pathologist, professor emeritus, at UC Berkeley!

I too have tried to sort out where the Y55 should be placed in the tomato plant society. It doesn't fit any classification, not even as mutant. When crosses are made, we all know that anything and everything is possible. In many cases, it may be a recessive gene that is suddenly activated by a cross. WI55 had at least 4 named varieties in a short few years. The yellow could not come from WI55 itself since Lot 55 was just another F something on the hybrid scale. The yellow would have to have come from something in the background of Redskin, John Baer, and Early or Greater Baltimore. Or even something further back than those. I don't have either of the Baltimores yet but I suspect something in John Baer's background due to nearly identical foliage.

Regardless, Y55 can only be called a twin sibling of WI55. It's just that instead of being an identical twin, as is the normal for plants, it's a fraternal twin. Had there been a pressing need for a great yellow field tomato, and everyone wasn't busy fighting the Germans and Japanese, quite possibly it would have been also been tweaked and released. However, due to the fact that the war effort took precedence over everything else, it would have also been too late to save the Midwest tomato industry. Del Monte shifted that to California and the rest is history.

Martin


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Terry

(I feel the biggest mistake people make when trying out a new variety is not growing enough trial plants to start with, personaly I think a minimum of five plants for each new variety is the only way to test them out,as no two plants come the same or produce the same)
So true. I would even go farther in saying you should try a new variety for at least 2 growing seasons. Last year was dismal for me, this year is fabulous. Fertility, weather conditions, location all can make a hugh difference.

As for Marianne's Peace, for me they are fabulous this year. They have been one of the first to ripen (I'm growing about 20 different varieties) and the quality is fabulous. I purchased my seeds from Sandhill, maybe I should think about saving some seeds for next year in light of the instability issues..
Glenda


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

"The yellow would have to have come from something in the background of Redskin, John Baer, and Early or Greater Baltimore. Or even something further back than those."

While I have no basis for my supposition, the culprit may be found in the same regional programs of about the same time:

Allred (North Dakota Experimental Station, 1939) = (a specimen from their uniform color line) x Bison.

Allred is believed to be the first commercial cultivar with uniform color. Maybe there was some color instability left in Allred.

Victor = Allred x Break-O-Day. Michigan State, 1940

Early Chatham = Victor x Redskin. Michigan State, 1941

Early Jersey = Rutgers x Victor (1944)

I could not find Early Baltimore's parentage. Does it include Victor or a derivative of Victor or Allred?


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

I'm growing Victor and Break O' Day so this is of considerable interest to me. I think the varieties you mention were the culmination of a period of breeding in which state universities such as Rutgers and Michigan State did considerable work developing OP varieties for commercial processing. Many of these were determinates, which made for efficient, once-over harvesting. But they also had traits desireable for home gardening, including good flavor.

Shortly after these varieties were developed, the emphasis shifted to F1 hybrids. As I recall, culinary fashion also changed, with a focus on "low acid" tomatoes, which really meant a milder, sweeter flavor. That's why I am exploring varieties of the early forties and older, the ones which have the so-called "old-fashioned tomato flavor" I prefer.

If I'm off base on some of my thinking, don't hesitate to correct me. I'm a novice at this and learning more each day.

Jim


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RE: Mariannas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Glenda, you are quite correct about the need to grow out more than one or two plants to get an idea what one has. In virtually every type and variety of vegetables, there are always some which are superior and some which are inferior. Seeds should be saved from only those individual plants which meet the standards for the variety. When developing a new variety, the culling process would begin as seedlings in the greenhouse. Anything not exactly right would be destroyed. Next step would be in the field where non-conforming plant foliage or growth would be terminated. Final culling would be any plants with non-standard fruit. It was at that final step where the yellow WI55 appeared. Until the fruit began to ripen on that plant, the plant was exactly as desired and survived every step in the culling process. Even then, it was culled and out of any future WI55 gene pool. Unlike all other rejects, that one plant wasn't 100% destroyed. And are they identical other than the color? Even the first fruit of the red and yellow WI55 will be ripe on the same day!

Hoosier, Victor would have been too late to be part of Greater or Early Baltimore. No clue here as to what was behind Greater Baltimore. From that one came Early Baltimore, with a Michigan connection. That was crossed with the un-named offspring of John Baer and Del Monte in 1936. The result of that was then crossed with Redskin and became WI55 in 1942. So, Alfred and Victor could not have been any part of the known immediate family.

Martin


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Martin:

Your and Garden Lad's messages have been very enlightening. Thank you both for the good information.

WI55 seems to enjoy a good reputation and loyal following from the few mentions I've seen here and in the Tomato Forum. I have never grown it or tasted it. Where are seeds available? My dad was always partial to Rutgers, and maybe I could start a few WI55s for him next year.

The Y55 is very intriguing in that you say it is identical in every respect to WI55 except for ripened color. Are seeds available for Y55, and if so, where?

Again, thanks to you and GL for turning this into an educational thread that did not scroll off into oblivion in 24 hours.

Regards, Bill


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Aw, shucks, Bill. Keep that up and I'll have to get a bigger hat. :>)


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Since I'm not supposed to be posting in threads initiated by Mr. Bateman, I guess, at his request , I haven't been participating in these interesting later posts on a different topic. But since they are on a different topic than the original ones introduced I thought what I had to say was germane to these later posts. So sorry I "had" to miss the heirloom definitions threads but I was reading here, alternately fidgeting and squirming and laughing and agreeing in certain parts. LOL

But I thought it would be helpful to those of you discussing WI55 and Y55 to pass along two pieces of information.

I know many of us were surprised when Alison, who used to post at GW brought up the subject of Y55 which she found out about when taking a course with Dr Raabe, whom Martin mentioned above. She got seeds from him for what here is being called Y55 and maybe that's what Dr. Raabe also called it, I can't remember, for this was two years ago.

But first, the background of Greater Baltimore was asked about.

I just thought I'd pass along the info that the background/origin of Greater Baltimore is given at Victory Seeds where seeds are also sold.

I imagine the background info was from Craig's catalog collection, but don't know for sure since Mike also does a lot of historical tomato sleuthing.

Second, it might be useful to think of a somatic mutation as being the origin of the Yellow Wisconsin since it and WI55 are said to be identical in all respects other than fruit color.

There is precedence for such a color change, and I can share my own experience as well. Somatic mutations are not common and unlike the majority of spontanteous mutations they take place in tomato tissue, not the seed. So the result is usually seen as different colored tomatoes or different shaped tomatoes on separate branches, akin to what is called a "sport" with fruit tree branches.

Even a single fruit can be a different color, it all depends on where that mutation occurred, and the origin of Yellow Riesentraube was ONE yellow fruit with all others being the normal red on that same plant.

In all my years of tomato growing I'm only seen two somatic mutations and the one is relevant here, just as the Riesentraube one above is.

I was growing Green Gage which is a small yellow, pre 1800 variety. One branch gave me RED fruits identical to the other yellow ones on the plant.

Since the change in genotype and phenotype occurs subsequesnt in growth to where the somatic mutation occurs in plant tissue, it's perfectly possible that a somatic mutation low down on the main stem could lead to a WI plant with all yellow fruit.

I subsequently found out that Green Gage used to exist in both a red and yellow form.

Hope the above helps in some way.

Carolyn


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Carolyn, I'm a paying member of GW (so far, although I'm reconsidering it given some recent 'threads') and among the perks is reading what you write. Please post ad libitum. Joe


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Carolyn:

Let me just say that when it comes to discussions, whether they take place in an Internet forum or in other casual settings such as cocktail parties or backyard barbeques, I support and enthusiastically engage in free and lively interchages. To do otherwise would be phony and superficial.

I really don't see why anyone should feel intimidated (and you surely don't seem to either), shamed, or otherwise inhibited by anyone's admonishments or retorts. If someone else has a problem with what you or another forum member says (so long as it is not vulgar), I would say that other person should simply get over it and get on with it.

I've only been here a short time. I am not aware of all the intricate interpersonal relationships between all y'all diverse characters, but I enjoy and benefit from most of your messages even though I may not agree with, understand, or even like the way you say things from time to time. (Actually, I chalk up a lot of your style to the fact that you're a professor ... I've been married to a college instructor for 33 years ... and you guys seem to think students that do not respond as expected are "difficult" or "disruptive;" but what the hell.) And as I just said, if I have some problem with the way you put things ... that's my problem to overcome, right? If a person let's pride or ego get in the way of absorbing knowledge, well, that's his or her loss.

So, thanks for contributing interesting, educated, and pertinent information about whatever it is you may wish to discuss in whatever way you wish to phrase it. That goes for the rest of you fine folks who have provided some really interesting stuff in this thread and the other related thread in this forum. So what if they got off the Original Post. We're better informed for it.

For example, I just learned something I had absolutely no idea about when you just discussed "somatic mutation." May you live a long and prosperous life so that we may all benefit from your willingness to educate.

Regards, Bill


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Amen, Joe and Bill!
Carolyn,
You bring a wealth of knowledge to the forum.
Terry,
You're contributions are valued.
Let's all try and get along, learn from each other, and enjoy conversing about our common interest in gardening.
It's so easy to take things the wrong way on the internet. Let's give each other the benefit of the doubt.
Peace to all.

Humbly,
Douglas


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Very sneaky Carolyn-Very Sneaky, -but I admire your femenine Guile- Highly commendable-highly commendable indeed, "pucker up " and we will call it quits!!!,-what the hell anyway.

Regarding the others- I kind of lost the plot somwhere along the line with so many new posts on this tomato W155 and Y55- even though I have been following it closely, with all the history of them both-very very interesting,But what is it about these two varieties of tomatoes that makes them so desirable other than their rarity, is it flavour,productivity,method of growth etc, etc,


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RE: Mariannas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Terry, WI55 was just one more tomato variety created to keep up with the growing commercial demands. It was in an era where some noted universities were working on improving vegetable varieties. Blight was a problem in Wisconsin and Illinois in the 1930s. With that area and New Jersey being the two main tomato processing areas in the US, an all-out effort was made to develop a resistant field tomato variety. WI55 was that result. It was too late to save most of the Midwest's tomato industry as that was rushed to California due to the war effort. After the war, times quickly changed and many of the better horticultural departments switched to other things. Trying to develop a better tomato was left to the commercial companies rather than educational institutions. Of all the tomatoes which were developed during that 1930-1940 era, only Rutgers and Wisconsin 55 have stood the test of time in filling a certain niche for over 60 years.

If you want to do a bit more research on the recent happenings and history of WI55, do a thorough Google search on Wisconsin 55. My initial free seed offer thread in the fall of 2003 is still in there. Locate that and you'll discover all off the hoops that I had to jump through and all of the obstacles which were laid in my path. Nothing more than slowed me but gave even more incentives to completing my goal. In the end, whereas 2003 began with only Seed Savers Exchange offering proved true WI55 seed, 2004 had several more and 2005 more again. And I ain't but halfway done yet!

For that matter, the WI55 story didn't end in 1942. That tomato in turn was used to create several of the noted Campbell numbered varieties in the short post-war era. That was to use the disease and cracking resistance, field hardiness, and semi-determinate growth. With the fun of having a sort of "family reunion" of tomato kin now in my garden, perhaps I should invite the whole clan for 2006! As far as I know, most members of the family are still alive but some are barely kicking.

Martin


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Martin:

Earlier in this thread you say, "The yellow (WI55) would have to have come from something in the background of Redskin, John Baer, and Early or Greater Baltimore. Or even something further back than those. I don't have either of the Baltimores yet but I suspect something in John Baer's background due to nearly identical foliage."

I've done some additional research and found a source that says Wisconsin 55's parentage includes a "selection from crosses involving John Baer, Del Monte, Early Biltmore, and Redskin." (NC State's Vegetable Cultivar Descriptions for North America, Tomato (A - I), Lists 1 - 26 Combined)

I'm wondering about "Biltmore" vs "Baltimore." Do you think my source is a typo?

The only other "Biltmore" referred to in the same source is Biltmore XP 1417977, a hybrid from Seminis circa 2003.

Do you have a source of information regarding the "Baltimore" parentage of Wisconsin 55?

Bill


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WI55 Accession

Bill, the Biltmore reference indeed is an error which I believe I may have perpetuated once or twice before getting the correct story. I forget the source right now but It's just one of many errors noted in tomato histories. Some companies have had the wrong year dates as I've seen 1947 and several 1950s dates. Some dates would make a person wonder how a variety which didn't exist yet was being used to develop another! (Then find a reasonably reliable source and they have a typo Red Skin for Redskin!) Wisconsin 55 was later used on one side when developing Campbell 135 and 146. It was also the beginning of both lines to get West Virginia 63.

Here is a link that might be useful: WI55, etc. Accessions


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ywi55

For the few who might be remotely interested, I've been thinking for a long time that the last thing we need is another lemon-yellow tomato. The long-awaited Y55 is soon to have its world debut when all the pieces come together. It won't be on this thread so I'll leave you all hanging with the latest update. Y55 isn't yellow, it's GOLD!

Martin


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Hey, Martin. Nobody likes a tease! :>)


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re: ywi55

Garden Lad,
Tried twice to photograph the first pair but they came out too red both times. Most of the world has waited 63 years to see them, they can wait a little longer! For color comparison, I brought home some Sungold from a friend's garden and the color is virtually identical while leaning a bit more to the orange side. Very close also to Kellogg's Breakfast but I don't have one of those fruits in hand for comparing. Already had a suggestion to call it Wisconsin 55 Gold when released. We'll see!

Martin


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Already had a suggestion to call it Wisconsin 55 Gold when released

Here's my scenario Martin; let me know where it departs from reality.

Since before Alison at GW talked about the yellow WI55 you had said nothing about it, I asssume you got seeds from her and/or she put you in touch with Dr. Raabe and you got seeds from him and perhaps both of them.

I assume you grew them last summer and at the same time talked to your friend Dick Sontag (sp?)at Jung's and suggested he have them put into seed production as an exclusive for Jung's/Totally Tomatoes.

But only after receiving permission/support from Dr. Raabe.

I'm further assuming that major seed production was done this summer and with good luck seeds will be listed commercially in the Fall catalogs mentioned above.

And I'm further assuming that the tomato blurb will include both Alison's name, without whom you wouldn't know that seeds were even available, and also Dr. Raabe's name, who kept the seeds going all those years.

And who gets the profits off sales? ( smile)

Taking in everything that's known and published about WI55 parentage, I still think the somatic mutation route is most probable for the appearance of the yellow variant although I haven't seen that discussed here as a possibility other than by me. We know the background of the possible parents in the lineage going back a couple of generations and I don't see anything remotely relating to yellow in them.

Whereas the possibility of a spontaneous somatic mutation from red to yellow is known, as I've related here.

Would you agree to the possibility of a somatic mutation origin and if not, why not?

Carolyn


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Martin, I don't know genetics. But I do know word rhythm.

I'd suggest, in this case, leaving out the "55" and just call it "Wisconsin Gold." The lineage can be included in the actual blurbs. But if you say the two names out loud a couple of times you'll see how one trips on the tongue and the other just flows.


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

The word "permission" can also apply all the way back to day one when someone stole seeds from a UW project! (I don't think that anyone will attempt to prosecute since the statute of limitations has run out!) One could also go back to determine where the funding and grants came from and who initially had the rights to sell WI55 seed. Then one would have to find the trail which eventually gave Jung's the rights. Prior to Jung's donations, it was not even in SSE's holdings. Once it got into SSE's hands, seed was available in bulk for any company which wished to grow or sell it. But that's beside the point, merely facts to ponder if one wishes to be sticky!

Actually, the credit should go to Amy Roy for asking the question: "Why No Wisconsin 55?" What eventually transpired, right up to this reply, had its beginnings with Amy's question. I was merely a single soldier fighting off those who tried their hardest to prevent me from attempting to save WI55. Anything after that is just normal battlefield collateral damage. What happens now to Wisconsin 55, red or gold, should be of NO concern to anyone who took up arms against me in that battle. And we DON'T need that again!

Martin


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

But Martin,

YOu didn't answer any questions as to the scenario I outlined and the possibility of a somatic mutation, the altter being important if anyone is writing a blurb and knowing you've not even entertained that possibility.

All you addressed was the permission angle and I guess all I was referring to was something to acknowledge how you personally found out about the yellow WI which was via Alison and thence to Dr. Raabe.

If Raabe was the only one who maintained it, which seems quite obvious now, then it seems to me he should be mentioned, thanked and acknowledged in some way and publically recognized if this yellow WI is going national as I presume you facilitated but still have not acknowledged.

But here I am presuming something when you haven't even confirmed the outlines of my scenario. Sigh

Carolyn, and please don't tell me I'll have to wait to see some blurb to see if it corresponds with what I and a few others who saw those threads know to be what happened with the yellow WI as the story unfolded.


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RE: Marihanas peace, & //Sunset Red Horizon

What happens now to Wisconsin 55, red or gold, should be of NO concern to anyone who took up arms against me in that battle. And we DON'T need that again!

YOu know, I kind of overlooked that sentence and upon rereading it now take it to be the reason why you are not willing to speak to what I've asked.

But Martin, your memory is faulty.

While you and I have had our disagreements I could care less about who saves and offers WI55 seed and actually I have no memory of any arguments about it. What's to argeu about?

For heavens sake, it's been listed in the SSE Yearbook for years and what was it, two years ago SSE started listing it, which you noted and pointed out the strong association of Jung's with SSE at the time, and I know I mentioned that Bill Minkey in WI sent out WI55 seed for years to anyone who got seed from him.

And you know that b'c I also offered WI55 in my offers for OLD seeds.

So who took up arms against you re WI55 b'c I can't remember any arguenmts whatsoever about that. Why should there be? Anyone who wants to save and offer seed can.

Carolyn, who also says if you don't want to discuss a Gold WI via Jung's/TT here publically that's fine with me as well, but my curiousity will be high when I get my Jung's and TT catalogs to see what has been written, especially after all the many pages of tomato corrections I wrote for you to give to Dick at Jungs and you said you received them but then said you didn't know what happened to them, never did reach Jung's, in terms of Jungs getting all the relevant data on how the yellow WI55 variant was rediscovered.


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Plundered Gold!

Carolyn, good girl! You do remember some of that, eh? But for now, please butt on out of WI55 since you've never had one decent word to say about it in the past. This Y55 is one tomato that's none of your business. You go take care of all of those which you raised for money. I'll handle the ones that I want to grow for fun! Besides, it's a non-heirloom by your standards and should not be worthy of taking up any more of your precious time! But if it's just a way of annoying Terry,.........!

There is also one point which is obvious but never discussed as such for special reasons. As it stands right now, we have a noted retired professor who's been growing a variety of tomato which he obtained from a UW field in 1942. Ever hear of employee theft? What happens if we find some more of Walker's notes and he mentions a gold variety which vanished, as in stolen or pilfered? Ooops!

As it stands right now, the decisions and rules of the Y55 game are up to me and a very few other concerned people. It's presently none of anyone else's business as to who those individuals are. Nor is it anyone else's business as to what the exact plans may be. Not only that, I'm not the only person having seeds. We won't know what the others may intend to do until they do it. Perhaps out of fairness to the game, they're allowing me to take the lead.

Oh, we've never considered Y55 as being offered jointly in both Jung's and Totally Tomatoes. Perhaps I'll have to reconsider and include Shumway's as well. Maybe go whole hog and add Vermont bean? Endless possibilities!!

Martin


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Carolyn, good girl! You do remember some of that, eh? But for now, please butt on out of WI55 since you've never had one decent word to say about it in the past. This Y55 is one tomato that's none of your business. You go take care of all of those which you raised for money. I'll handle the ones that I want to grow for fun! Besides, it's a non-heirloom by your standards and should not be worthy of taking up any more of your precious time! But if it's just a way of annoying Terry,.........!

Not only are some of your comments incorrect but your accusations are also unfounded as well as being unkind.

If I raise tomatoes for money, why have I offered over 300 varieties free for a SASE here at GW and also at AOL where I first started posting in 1990. Yes, like all other SSE members who list varieties in the Yearbook I am paid for those who order from me, and I offer just a few varieties, less than 15, not the many hundreds that several others do and this past year I received but 22 requests.

I had a good professional career, thank heavens, and don't need to raise tomatoes to make money and you know it.

And why have I always tried to make what I think are great varieties more available to the public by sending seeds to seed companies I respect such that if they like them during trial they can offer them publically? Because that helps to ensure availability of varieties to those who otherwise would have to be SSE members to acquire them.

And you also know that I'm not the only one who sends seeds for trial to certain seed companies.

As I said, your comments apply to all of us who list varieties at SSE, not just me, and making money with less than 15 varieties listed and but 22 requests? Please Martin, get serious.

If you can't discuss issues without accusations and inuendoes then there's no sense my showing interest or trying tio discuss things with you or continuing with this subject.

As many GW members know, you have often singled me out for your numerous attacks, and it used to bother me, but no more, b'c I and others understand you better these days as you have shown yourself in public discourse on various topics.

Carolyn


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Martin - Are you aware that you come across so poorly... to the point of losing credibility when you use attacks as a method of expressing yourself? If what happens to "Wisconsin 55, red or gold" is your business, then why bring it up here? Were you hoping that by bringing it up you'd get the opportunity to treat someone poorly? The attacks you've made on Carolyn here and in other messages make you sound jealous or threatened by her. Are you? I can understand if you are. She does seem to have the greater experience and knowledge. Her communication and people skills are superior to yours. And she has done more...


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Whatever!

Reign, it's been brought up before. Then there are some who didn't get the word the first time and want to know more. If you ask a direct question of me and I don't answer it, most would think that I'm snubbing you. Correct? Don't answer that! But I've already given you the answers and the questions have been asked or discussed time and again. Yes, you can indeed call it jealousy. I'm jealous that a certain individual can place herself above all else in the matters of tomatoes. She alone can decide which is an "heirloom" and which is not. And this despite supposedly 100% supporting the organization which set up the standards for such determination. That's being hypocritical, there's no other word for it. The rules of the game are supposed to apply to everyone, not just to someone who changes them at a whim! That's either SSE or GW rules, whichever applies for a given situation. The sad part is that a great many other people seem to support such actions. Just like saying that it's OK to steal or cheat or whatever as long as it's done in the name of something or somebody that's all warm and fuzzy. Understand? Stick around for awhile, you'll see it. I don't have to mention individual instances since there's nothing to gain by keeping too many fires going. The early replies on this thread set the mood and eventual theme. One member had a chance to sit on her hands and didn't. Whatever, we're sure making the Heirloom Plants & Gardens Forum popular for awhile!

Carolyn, listing an average of over 30 varieties per year in SSE puts you just a tad bit commercially higher than the average seed-for-seed swappers! 11 years of listing, 348 varieties. That's a bit more than 15, eh? Or does SSE have a serious error in their accounting? If this has gone on for 11 years at a rate of 22 requests per each 15 varieties, one would think that you would have learned the word "futility" by now! You have to be careful there since reporting virtually little or no activity smacks counter to the purpose or usefulness of SSE and your own frequent promotion of that organization. Remember that when I mentioned something like that one time, I was accused of being "consistently negative" toward SSE. If so, I'm at least consistent and not a flip-flop.

SASE? Yes, we've heard of how much effort those projects were! It can indeed be a pain but I've never complained. Everyone knows how much it's cost to get tomato seeds from me for the past two years. It's cost ME roughly $240 in postage alone plus 6 or 7 boxes of coin envelopes. 450+ requests in 2003-04 just for WI55 and one or two others. 188 in 2004-05 with a wide selection of varieties available. (That was just on GW but my seed offers have enjoyed 5 seasons on another forum.) I've always done it for fun and I'll possibly do it again this fall. FREE was apparently an unknown concept on GW until September 2003. FREE caught on well last year. A few others did so because they were really nice sharing people, and perhaps didn't know how to go about offering something free before. Others may have just been on a guilt or ego trip. Doesn't matter as a lot of amateur gardeners got some darned good varieties and they didn't have to spend $35 for the privilege of doing so.

Terry, see how it goes here? Carolyn always tries to pass me but she can't. She often thinks that she's caught up to me but I'll forever be about 6 months older than she is! It's sort of the sheep dog and wolf cartoon thing, you know? We may tear and scratch each other up pretty good but we don't want to kill each other! (-;

Martin


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Heirloom Criteria

Reign, forgot to mention. The "heirloom" subject was broached in the initial post on this thread. It was Garden Lad who brought up the question about the criteria in deciding commercial "heirlooms" including such noted breeders such as Livingston and Henderson plus agricultural schools such as Rutgers. With Walker and Wisconsin happening to be in both of those categories, how can you suggest that my mentioning them was intended to provoke an argument? After Garden Lad posted that "heirloom" criteria mention, I believe that this thread continued for 15 or more sensible and intelligent replies. Perhaps you can point out which reply you based your opinion on? If you choose to not reply, no problem. It's a long thread with a story plot which is hard to follow. No doubt others got lost as well!

Martin


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

This is getting realy funny now, with swords drawn and daggers at the ready, with suitable back stabbing along the way, Iv'e never had so much fun for years, perhaps its time to say "Touche" before the Marquis of queensbury rules are promoted, all this der-gottya stuff is getting a bit highbrow for me, and would you all believe that all I ever wanted to know was about Marihannas Peace & Sunset Red Horizon, perhaps its better to start a new thread on the other mentioned varieties, before this one eventualy rolls over to a record 100 posts ,as its fast heading this way,


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

11 years of listing, 348 varieties. That's a bit more than 15, eh? Or does SSE have a serious error in their accounting? If this has gone on for 11 years at a rate of 22 requests per each 15 varieties, one would think that you would have learned the word "futility" by now!

Martin, you are playing with numbers. The total listings that were presented were just that, total **lifetime** SSE listings to date as I recall, and for many years I did list many varieties just as Craig and all the others much higher up on the list did.

Futility? No, I care not how many requests I get and never have. There are other reasons for listing, as I've mentioned below.

And you don't average them out per year as you did to try and make a point. Each year is different with regard to an individual's listings.

I had to retire in 1999 and moved to a new home and my growouts since that time have been devoted mainly to maintaining certain stocks as I've seen what has happened in the so called heirloom tomato world out there. Varieties listed since 1999 have all been NEW varieties not listed initially by others.

Since 1998 I have offered very very few and that's fact. 12 in 1998, 2 in 1999, 2 in 2000, 2 in 2001, 1 in 2002, 6 in 2003, 12 in 2004 and 22 in 2005. And of course some of those later listings were repeats of ones first listed the year before, from 1999 onwards.

And now that 22 cumulative number will decrease sharply since I can no longer garden effectively b/c of my physical problems.

I would like to remain as a listed member by listing at least one variety in the future, but don't know if I'll be able to do that. No, not to get a lesser price for seeds as a listed member since I don't request seeds from other long time SSE friends who list hundreds each year; I give them my new ones as they give same to me, but just to be a listed member, as I have been since about 1989/90.

While my view of SSE has changed over the years in many ways, and while I agree with some of their practices and decisions and not others, still, I've made so many wonderful friends there, including Craig and Neil and Bill and Marianne and Glenn and others, that I do want to maintain some kind of presence as a listed member and also b'c almost all varieties found at most seed sources initially came from SSE listings, and that has benefited the public at large and b'c I do believe strongly in preservation of heirloom varieties in general and wish to contuinue to support the organization with my membership money.

While I once interacted very closely with certain folks there, that no longer is true, except helping Aaron with catalog blurbs, at his request, and reviewing his growout list, also at his request.

Right now I have maybe 150 varieties I've never grown and never will be able to in the future, and so it goes.

I would like to be able to grow out the new ones that come to me directly from families, but only time will tell if that will even be possible b'c of my current/projected physical disabilities.

Nothing is to be gained by my even attempting to address the many other issues you raise, so I won't.

Carolyn


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Martin,

Why isn't it possible to disagree with Carolyn without villifying her? To this bystander, some of your posts appear to be tortuous attempts to misconstrue what she says and what she does. Both of you have a lot to offer, but it becomes unpleasant to read when the posts become mean spirited.

I see no reason for you to resent Carolyn's contributions to this forum as you do. She is rightfully considered an authority on heirloom tomatoes. She certainly ought to participate in any discourse regarding them and deserves to be treated with respect.

Martin, you seem to be seeking absolutes in matters which often are conceptual rather than factual. Categorization is such a matter. Individuals will differ in their concepts of how to categorize tomatoes, for example. There will never be a universally accepted concept about this. So, state your case as best you can and don't take offense if someone disagrees.

So far as offering seed in whatever ways you both do, we gardeners are grateful for it. We all have benefitted directly or indirectly. In both your cases it has, without question, been a labor of love. More power to you.

I offer this in the spirit of constructive criticism. Please accept it as such.

Jim


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RE: Marianna's Peace Status

Everyone simply has to remember one word, "consistency". Without that, everything becomes chaos due to "contradiction".

Normal rules for a question and answer forum is to judge each thread independently. Each thread becomes a new topic and fresh unbiased start. That's actually why many of the GW forums have operated successfully for so long. That's because they have remained primarily within the stated forum purposes. Only a few have become renegade off-topic chat rooms. And that has often been after GW management has set up separate Gallery, Conversation, and Exchange areas within those forums. Doesn't matter since there are a certain small group of members who think that they are greater than the parent forum and flaunt the rules as far as possible. That's possibly why there are so many good tomato questions asked on the various regional forum. Those people are looking for answers, not to enter an open chat room!

In this thread, as I see it, we've apparently had a committee of one claim that Marianna's Peace is an "heirloom". Since it fails to meet any legitimate standard for being granted "heirloom" status, another committee of one has proclaimed that it is an unstable recent hybrid at this point in time. It was a variety with a very suspect background and apparently created strictly for individual financial gain. It is no more an "heirloom" than Earl's Faux. At least, Earl hasn't claimed that his tomato is an "heirloom"!

Martin


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

>Since it fails to meet any legitimate standard for being granted "heirloom" status,<

Whoa! Play that again?

If we accept the legend, than it most certainly is an heirloom, by virtually all standards.

That is the question, however. Is the story true? Or did Gary Ibsen, a consumate marketing genius, make it up out of whole cloth? Although we may have suspicions, there is no clear evidence either way.

True, the name is new. But that doesn't affect whether or not the tomato is an heirloom. To deny such status would mean excluding virtually all family heirlooms.

I just collected a greasy bean (literally "just", I've only now come in the door from picking it up) from a gentleman whose family has been growing it at least since his great grandmother. Because we try and keep greasy bean lines separate, I've assigned the name Waddigton's Brown Greasy to it (his g,g, grandmother's name was Mary Jane Waddington). By your reasoning, this bean is not an heirloom, because there was no "Waddington's Brown Greasy" 50 years ago.

Instability, of itself, proves nothing, as there is a condition we can call "consistent instability". There are several varieties that consistently throw different forms and colors. There's an Azerbaijan tomato in my collection, for instance, that produces two different forms that vary in size, color, and foliage. But they _always_ throw those two, and have been doing so for a long time.

It's not a very good tomato, as a matter of fact. But, IMO, it certainly is an heirloom.


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Garden Lad, you smelled out my next move, darn it! I expected a lot of people to come jumping at me for calling Carolyn a committee of one in determining "heirloom" status of Marianna's Peace. Nope, I'm referring to Gary Ibsen and his list of 430 guaranteed heirlooms which include the likes of Green and Black Zebra plus Tigerella and made-to-order "heirlooms" by Joe Bratka and others. If a person or company is consistent in being honest and forthright, and has a flawless previous reputation, then one would have no reason to question something new. Was it not Ibsen who was responsible for the Sunset Red Horizon name? And how many know phony histories are connected with his tomato list? If there's a bad smell around, something's rotten somewhere!

Could I ever have fun with a variety that I'm growing! Actually it's two varieties in one. It's a big pink beefsteak and a big pink heart! Identical plants but each throw different fruit and consistent on 4 of each so far. These come from an even more troubled place than Marianna's Peace/Conflict, Romania! Then having been "smuggled" into first England and then into the US after the 9/11 bans. I'm certain that I could come up with a nice tear-jerker, touchy-feely story to convince people to send maybe $5 for 10 seeds. Alas, my personal scruples have never allowed me to stoop so low and I'm condemned to give rather than receive!

Oh, to top things off, we have to walk a fine line now with Ibsen's Tomatofest being a major GW sponsor of the Growing Tomatoes Forum. Those badmouthing him too much may find themselves on the outside and looking in! That's just a reminder that the dog is wagging us, we're not wagging the dog!

One other thing, Garden Lad. I have not mentioned nor care about the "heirloom" standard for beans since this thread is about tomatoes. Whatever the bean standard is was in use much longer than any which applies to tomatoes. As already has been pointed out, assigning an "heirloom" designation to any tomatoes is documented as having begun in 1981. And that was first in connection with Seed Savers Exchange.

Martin

Here is a link that might be useful: Heirloom Committee of One!


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Far be it from me to accuse you of being contentious for its own sake, Martin. But you're getting a bit carried away now.

You're the one who insisted that SSE be the arbiter of what is an heirloom, and, in fact, have argued that they don't follow their own definition. And you're the one who has argued that consistency is crucial.

So, let's lay this on for size:

"An heirloom is generally considered to be a variety that has been passed down, through several generations of a family because of it's valued characteristics."

That's as near your quoted SSE definition as to make no never mind, wouldn't you say? Well that's _exactly_ how Gary Ibsen defines heirlooms. It's right there on the site you linked us to.

So, rather than being a committee of one, strict adherence to this definition actually comes from a committee of two: Gary and you.

>I have not mentioned nor care about the "heirloom" standard for beans since this thread is about tomatoes.<

Whoops! There aren't different standards. An heirloom is an heirloom, whether it be beans, tomatoes, cucumbers or what have you. The open quesiton is, "what makes a variety an heirloom."

My point, which nobody else seems to have had trouble understanding, isn't about beans or tomatoes, per se. It's about word usage. You have implied very strongly that the name of a variety is part of it being an heirloom or not. That, in the case of Marianna's Peace, even if the tomato is a multi-generational variety, the name is only a couple of years old, and, as such, Marianna's Peace is not an heirloom. By that sort of reasoning, Waddington's Brown Greasy, which has been in the same family since sometime in the latter 1800s, is not an heirloom---which, I submit, is patent nonesense by anybody's standard.

I reserve comment on your Gary Ibsen notes. You have obviously decided that he is dishonest and a con artist, and anything he says or does is colored by that.

You also, my friend, insist on using the most pernicious form of circular reasoning when it comes to the definition of "heirloom vegetable." You start by saying that SSE is the arbiter, and quote their definition from 1981. Your rationale is that they used it first, so, therefore, they, and that definition, prevail.

But "heirloom," like every other word in the English language, evolves in meaning and usage over time. It has even evolved within SSE, let alone the rest of the gardening community. You cheerfully ignore that evolution, and base all your conclusions on a simple concept: "Here is how _I_ insist on using that word (when it suits my purposes, that is). If you use it any other way, you are wrong. And therefore, you are wrong about heirloom status of particular varieties" Doing this doesn't prove your point, it just makes you sound arrogant.

There is only one reason to even seek a common definition for the word "heirloom." And that's to facilitate communication. The folks who have been growing particular varieties for three, and four, and six generations don't call them that. Most time they don't even have variety names; they just call 'em something like "them yaller tomatoes."

With that in mind, let's look, again, at the two parts of the Male/LeHoulier rubric: Created Heirlooms and Mystery Group. I choose those specifically because, as I've said before, I disagree with them.

However, if Carolyn or Craig or anyone else tells me that Pink X is a created heirloom, I know exactly what they mean. And thus, communication is enhanced, even though I personally don't consider that group to be genuine heirlooms.

In short, it doesn't matter how a word was first used, or even who first used it. What matters is how it is handled in common usage. And, in common usage, there are primarily three general definitions mostly in use by the heirlooms community. Virtually everyone I know adheres to one or the other of them, and is consistent in its application.

Which brings us back to the one question you haven't answered. You keep making an accusation that certain authorities say that Rutgers is an heirloom and WI55 is not. And I keep asking you who. To repeat, there is no way, under _any_ existing definition of heirloom that one of those can be included and the other not. So, instead of being obfuscatory, and moving in other directions, tell us who these "authorities" are.


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

(With that in mind, let's look, again, at the two parts of the Male/LeHoulier rubric: Created Heirlooms and Mystery Group. I choose those specifically because, as I've said before, I disagree with them.

However, if Carolyn or Craig or anyone else tells me that Pink X is a created heirloom, I know exactly what they mean. And thus, communication is enhanced, even though I personally don't consider that group to be genuine heirlooms.)

B, I don't consider "created heirlooms" to be true heirlooms either although Tom Wagner and others do using the rubric that an heirloom variety is something treasured as the sole criterion.

Please look in my book on page 8, under Created Heirlooms and in the first sentence you'll see I put the word heirlooms in quotes, as in "heirlooms". Now why did I do that first thing in that discussion of that category?

Now look on page 3 right hand column hear the bottom where I wrote,

"Still others argue that an heirloom tomato isn't a true heirloom unless it has been passed down from generation to generation within the same family or extended family. My sympathies lie with this camp."

Again,my synmpathies lie with this camp, ie, passed down from generation to generation. And that's why I wrote "heirlooms" that way.

Now look at page 8 under mystery group and in the first paragraph I wrote " These tomatoes are not true family heirlooms, although their parents were, and they aren't deliberately created heirlooms.

So again, I don't see the Mystery group as true family heirlooms either since above I already noted that that's the group I feel are the true heirlooms.

Of course one could always say that a parent in an accidental cross might be a hybrid, but the majority of these accidental crosses do come fronm two OP heirloom parents from what I gather from reading and personal ecxperience.

Many many seed source sites do not distinguish between created varieties and those that arose from natural X pollination, the so called "mystery" group, as opposed to family heirlooms, which is why for each variety in my book I IDed which group I thought best described them, as perhaps a help to others in terms of origin, as you have noted yourself.

I think the usefulness of talking about created and mystery categories is just as you say, to know the true origin, which was the reason Craig first mentioned the so called created group and I added the mystery group, and that purpose was to be able to distinguish family and commercial heirlooms FROM those that were created and those that arose by accidental cross pollination.

I still feel positive, though, about adopting the suggestion made by others that the Commercial heirloom definition rest with those that were in existance roughly before or around 1940 based on their comment that hybrids were being released to the public roughly at that same time.

It gets wiggy to state a specific date, as everyone knows, but is it really worth arguing about? It's a guideline the way I see it, and just that.

And maybe I'll have to look at the merits of a sliding scale for family heirlooms when I feel "several generations" have passed the about 1940 date. After all, I was born in 1939, and my kids, if I'd had any and they'd grown our family heirloom, of which there never was one, would only put my mythical kids at generation ONE. ( smile)

OK, I'm old enough that MY mythical kids could also have kids, LOL, giving us generation TWO, but I think that's losing sight of the following brief discussion.

What's my point?

If the definition of a true family heirloom is one that says passed down within a family from generation to generation, then how many generations before it can be called an heirloom? Trust me, I don't want to get into that right now, LOL, but it is important, isn't it?

Like wise, if the definition is that "several" generations have to be passed, then how many? Same comment as above.

In other words, there are still loose ends no matter what definition one chooses to adopt.

So you now know which camp I belong in personally re family heirlooms, hopefully with reference to what I wrote in my book and what I've always said in posts, but perhaps you missed that opinion of mine as I wrote it and also expressed it online.

Carolyn, who says yes, it's about word usage and more, and yes, suggested definitions do and might well be expected to evolve with time.


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

>B, I don't consider "created heirlooms" to be true heirlooms either......<

I know that, Carolyn. You and I share a philosphy re: family heirlooms. I don't pretend they are the only "real" heirlooms; they're just the ones I prefer collecting and growing.

But we're both aware that others do not, and have broader definitions. The point is, if A tells B that he's growing heirlooms, it's nice if B knows what he's talking about.

That, of course, was my point.

>Tom Wagner and others do using the rubric that an heirloom variety is something treasured as the sole criterion<

I know he's told you that. But he's also told me that his creations are not heirlooms, and he wished people would stop calling them such, and give credit to the breeder.

Who was it said "consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds?" :>)

You and I have had, and no doubt will continue to have, disagreements on certain things. But I believe that on the basic issues of this thread you and I are in perfect agreement.

>then how many generations before it can be called an heirloom? Trust me, I don't want to get into that right now, LOL, but it is important, isn't it? <

Yes, it is important. However, if we use the commonly accepted definition of "generation" as 30 years, then using either 50-years or pre-1940 would mean two generations.

Ironically, the only time I even think about these things is on lists like this, or when I'm writing an article. Out in the field, when I collect seed, and the 70 year old source tells me his grandmother grew it, there's no question in my mind that it's an heirloom in all respects.


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

If you click on the name of a poster, you might see a notice "send me an email". That might be a better way to post personal information, attacks, etc, than here publicly.
Joe


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Garden Lad, now I'm becoming slightly confused here! Think of what's happened just with you on this thread. First, you were ignorant of the fact that the term "heirloom", as applied to tomatoes, is documented as having begun in 1981 and by Kent Whealey. Prior to that, it was documented as having been used in reference to beans. Also, it is not I who is suggesting that SSE become an arbiter, I'm merely informing you and everyone as to where it all started. My point is that it began there and everyone since has been making up their own rules to suit whatever purpose. In reality, there are no rules. In some cases, one wonders just what IS going on when an individual, company, or organization appears to have two completely separate and conflicting standards. Just ask about Tigerella. Carolyn can tell you the history and exactly how it was created and that it is NOT an "heirloom". Tangella was created by the exact same team of people and it IS supposedly an "heirloom"! That's just one example of what may apply to many varieties.

A second thing that we've established here is that there is no official board anywhere to determine the status of any vegetable variety, period. The first use of "heirloom", in connection with non-bean vegetables, may or may not have been materially motivated since it was when SSE was still young and seeking members and dollars. Were one to view it from a totally un-biased position, we now know that it turned out to be a great marketing ploy. Of late, certain individuals and companies have played off that "heirloom" mention to fatten their own pockets. And as we see with Tomatofest's alleged 500, virtually any OP variety becomes an "heirloom". That's just one example of many and not a specific attack against Ibsen. When Hilton did stuff like that, he was considered a scoundrel for doing that. When two people commit the same crime, one isn't any less guilty just because he's your friend.

Personally, I have no personal standards since I have nothing to gain financially or otherwise. I grew my Paquebot Roma for 4 or 5 years when it was one generation removed from Sicily and I knew its history. I grew it for fun and gave it to whomever requested it. I'm not going to make up some story to promote it as the world's best ever determinate paste tomato. The last thing that I figured that this world needed was another paste tomato, especially since the Italians already had a 300 year head start! I'm growing 5 varieties right now which have never been listed in the SSE Yearbook. There's one which I probably wouldn't pay to make someone grow it since I don't think that we need another small lemon yellow thing which has a flavor just a tad above White Wonder! Another is virtually unique and could go over big with a bit of publicity. Several more are getting loads of interest from my fellow local gardeners who aren't used to seeing such varieties which many of us are familiar with. But if the SSE system really is so bad as to expect 22 requests for 15 varieties, any more than a single offer isn't worth the effort of copying and filling out the submission forms.

If anyone thinks that I sound anti-SSE, how many spent as much money as I did with SSE in 2004? Without counting the subscription fee, it was $130.99. Or $160.00 including dues.

And now, Garden Lad, you asked for it! Everyone wants to know why the very mention of WI55 invariable turns into what everyone considers an attack on a certain individual by me. Carolyn Male has been the only one who has proclaimed that Wisconsin 55 is NOT an "heirloom" tomato variety and has done so on more than one occasion. One member asked her point blank if Wisconsin 55 was an "heirloom" and the reply was that it was not. More than one time, she has suggested Break O'Day, another created commercial variety, as being a better choice. Can you spell hypocritical?

To all, all that I have been guilty of is having to defend one single variety of tomato since February 2003. During all that time, I have never once set myself up as a committee of one to proclaim that Wisconsin 55 was or was not an "heirloom" variety. Nor have I ever set myself up as a one-man campaign to discredit anyone's personal favorite tomato. If I've grown something, I reserve the right to comment on it, favorable or unfavorable. If not, it's none of my damned business.

As my mother often said: "Now put that in your pipe and smoke it!"

(Joe, do think twice before suggesting "attacks" via the GW message system. That's the quickest and surest way to commit forum suicide!)

Martin


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

(Carolyn Male has been the only one who has proclaimed that Wisconsin 55 is NOT an "heirloom" tomato variety and has done so on more than one occasion. One member asked her point blank if Wisconsin 55 was an "heirloom" and the reply was that it was not. More than one time, she has suggested Break O'Day, another created commercial variety, as being a better choice. Can you spell hypocritical?)

I'm the only one? Or the only one you know of?

I think not in terms of me being the ONLY one.

And if asked today I'd respond the same way in that Break O Day is pre-1940 and WI55 is not.

Not being hypocritical at all, actually being quite consistent.

Anyone adhering to that particular definition for commercial heirloom varieties and knowing the release dates would respond the same way .

Sure it's cutting a fine line on dating, I agree, but that was discussed in my last post here where I referred to the situation as being "wiggy" when talking about date definitions around 1940 and I'm not going to return to it.

I have been consistent in applying that 1940 date to commercial heirlooms as you can see from that type presented in my book, and also online, but seldom does anyone ask about such things, quite honestly, only those who might have a vested interest and only those who discuss/argue about heirloom definitions. ( smile)

No hypocrisy at all.

I have never recommended Break O Day as an alternative to WI55. Why would I? I usually suggest:

Druzba
Red Brandwyine
Bulgarian #7
Break O Day
Rutgers
Picardy

... when asked what **I** might like for canning tomatoes, and those are all nice round red high yielding good tasting varieties.

Yes, what **I** like. What **I** personally prefer.

Another topic:

(Just ask about Tigerella. Carolyn can tell you the history and exactly how it was created and that it is NOT an "heirloom". Tangella was created by the exact same team of people and it IS supposedly an "heirloom"! That's just one example of what may apply to many varieties.)

How very strange because the results of the cross between Aisla Craig and I forgot the other parent done at the Glasshouse Research Inst in England gave three sibling varieties:

Tigerella
Tangella
Craigella

All created at the same time from the same cross and all genetically stabilized at about the same time.

I don't know of anyone who would apply so called heirloom status, created or otherwise, to one of the siblings and not the others unless they didn't know the origin of the cross and the progeny.

I've never seen Tangella referred to as an heirloom and Tigerella not, I guess you have which is why you mention it, but then why fault someone for not knowing the relationship between the two if both were presented some place at the same time with the wrong info you mention. I consider all three to be created heirlooms.

And heaven knows of the plethora of wrong information out there about many "heirloom" tomato varieties. Some of that wrong information deliberate and some due to lack of knowledge about specific varieties.

Carolyn


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Well, Martin, I've played long enough. Your obvious goal, here, isn't to share information but to merely be argumentative, to take shots at anyone who dares disagree with you, and to prove that everything has to be your way or the highway.

You say, for instance: "Also, it is not I who is suggesting that SSE become an arbiter,"

Yet, among the many times you have, indeed, taken that position are:

"As for who determines is something is or is not an "heirloom", I would tend to use SSE as a guide or reference"

And:

"SSE established the game rules and set up the playing field. And by the originators rules, WI55 and Rutgers come under the exact same designation."

But, of course, self-contradiction isn't something that has ever bothered you.

You also remind me of the blurb writers for movies, who can take a completely bad review, carefully select words from it, and turn it into a positive comment.

You say, for instance,

"(Carolyn Male has been the only one who has proclaimed that Wisconsin 55 is NOT an "heirloom" tomato variety and has done so on more than one occasion. One member asked her point blank if Wisconsin 55 was an "heirloom" and the reply was that it was not."

Carolyn certainly doesn't need my help defending herself. But this is ridiculous. The accusation you made was that certain authorities claim that WI55 is not an heirloom while Rutgers Improved is.

I know the standard that Carolyn applies to tomatoes, and she's consistent with it. By her standards (i.e., pre-1940 for commercial introductions), WI55 is _not_ an heirloom. But neither is Rutgers Improved. So, again, I ask you to support your contention that certain authorities claim heirloom status for the one, but not the other. I suggest you cannot do so, unless you use the word "authority" the way you use other words---to mean what you want, despite common usage.

>First, you were ignorant of the fact that the term "heirloom", as applied to tomatoes, is documented as having begun in 1981 and by Kent Whealey.<

Strictly speaking not true. Reread what you and I discussed above about Kent's source of the word. I never professed ignorance that Kent used it for tomatoes and other veggies. I was just unaware of where he got the term.

However, this is another of your obfuscatory comments, used merely to try to discredit.

The fact is, the orginal use of the word is only important from an historical point of view. It otherwise has no relevance to the conversation. What counts is how the word "heirloom" is used today.

There are thousands of heirlooms growers and collectors who not only do not know the source of the word, they've never even heard of SSE. I guess by your sort of convoluted reasoning that means they aren't actually growing heirlooms.


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Garden Lad, if one doesn't know something, he is ignorant of that knowledge. You doubted my Kent Whealey claim and thus were ignorant of it, plain and simple! Being ignorant of something doesn't infer anything to a person's intelligence. I'm ignorant as to how to make an atomic bomb despite having survived the largest such bomb ever detonated in the Western Hemisphere!

Both of you are getting a bit outrageous in your presumptions! One is seemingly playing ignorant and asking loaded questions while already knowing the answers. The other is denying her own past GW replies. I don't think that I have to explain every single previous instance which has led up to this point but you've both asked for it.

One thing is that I have NEVER claimed WI55 to be an "heirloom". I've been happy enough with Kent Whealey's description of such varieties. I can live with that! Kent and his SSE didn't say 1920, 1930, 1940, or whatever as a cut-off date for including in the "heirloom" designation. Nor has SSE ever designated one commercial variety as an "heirloom" while proclaiming a similar one as not being an "heirloom". What we have are some people either changing the rules or making up new ones to benefit only their own purposes. Either that or they continue to perpetuate and defend an error made in the past. The evidence is plain if you know where to look for it.

Tigerella has come up here for a reason. That happens to be another which I've grown and which has been proclaimed as not being an "heirloom". I could care less despite my strain having been no doubt tinkered with in the USSR and DDR! At this point, I suppose that I should admit, for the first time, to having purchased a book about tomatoes even before I heard about Garden Web. (The Madison SSE store had them for as long as I had been visiting there.) In that book, Tangella is an "heirloom" despite having the identical origins as Tigerella. Carolyn has indeed gone on record as saying that Tigerella is NOT an "heirloom". If so, then Tangella also can NOT be one. All I know is that there is a book out there which supposedly contains 100 "heirloom" varieties of tomatoes. Not 90 or 85 or whatever, but 100. When the author of that book takes it upon herself to be the final judge as to what is or is not an "heirloom" variety, and then contradicts the facts which are in that book, what's the word for that?

Also, Garden Lad, Carolyn is NOT consistent in using 1940 as a cut-off for commercial varieties. Read the book. There's a commercial one in there which is stated as being about 35 years old. That would have been around 1965 according to when the book went to print. In chronological order, 1965 does NOT come before 1940!

As for siding with SSE, I'm going strictly according to what was the mood here in 2002. One of my very first replies on the Growing Tomatoes was to a long and glowing thread about SSE. I asked the question why I should bother joining when I've got an SSE outlet less than 10 miles away from our shop. I suspect that nobody has to guess very long as to whom it was who replied to my question to convince me that SSE was THE ultimate equal to sliced bread when it came to tomatoes and all other vegetables! Since then, despite my finding a lot of chinks in their armor, I'll still defend about everything that the organization stands for, not just what may benefit myself. If I wasn't willing to conform to their rules and standards, I wouldn't continue paying my dues and supporting their purpose.

No matter if you like the answers or not, the facts are there. Try to paint me into a corner and it won't work. I've kept my mouth shut about Carolyn's book until now. In the past, I've only said that it was probably the best such book since it was the only such book. There was never a point in nit-picking over the inclusion of at least 15 varieties which do not meet the "heirloom" qualifications as since maintained by the author. Nor do we need a detailed explanation of why the contents of the book do not back up the title and v.v.

My point is this, and you can dispute it all you wish and try to have the final word. If Carolyn used the same set of rules or guidelines now as when the book was written, this discussion would probably never had included her. It's chaos! Five years later, we're still trying to find out what guidelines were being followed when the copy was being prepared. Were there any, surely they would have come out already in this thread. All we have to go on is learning where the origin of "heirloom" came from in connection with vegetables. But nobody has come forth linking to a site showing what those guidelines are. If none exist, and any one individual may decide without arbitration, then everyone reading this may set themselves up as a committee of one to decide. That would then give credence to every concocted "heirloom" offered on E-Bay or other Internet sites. Those who are growing and offering such varieties would have every right to call them what they wish. After all, we already have Marianna's Peace, Sunset Red Horizon, and Julia Child's as examples just from this thread. On the face of things, they appear to all 3 being strictly marketing ploys. One released while still being an unstable hybrid and the other two being new names to otherwise probably ordinary tomatoes!

Martin


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

  • Posted by Earl SW Ohio 5-6 (My Page) on
    Tue, Aug 23, 05 at 19:46

Martin and Terry, you both smell like burnt chicken. Leave the Lady alone. You got any B*lls, jump on me. Your antics are pathetic, and anyone with a lick of sense would think you're Chickenman. You do this crap [jumping on Carolyn] every so often and it gets old having to put up with your crabby ol' man mentality.

Carolyn has given more of her time and energy to making the tomato forum work than you or anyone else has. She would be missed, but you sure as hell wouldn't be, not by me anyway. So lay off.


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Earl, seems that YOU were the one not happy to let the sleeping dogs lie. Well, you didn't see the forest for the trees. I've had Carolyn's book for a long time and never felt that I had to dispute anything in it. Why should I discredit it? It would do neither she nor I any good to point out the inconsistencies in that book. Especially so since the forum rules might prevent her from defending or explaining something. I don't feel that she has to defend her errors but I'm here to remind her that they were made. If she's changed her standards since then, all she had to do was say so and explain why. But since she can't do that without promoting a product for personal gain, there's no reason for me to try to get her in trouble.

There's another point in that book thing. I had it before I even heard of GW as I had the SSE store handy. A great many here have it. Are all of them so naive as to not see the inconsistencies? Or must they forget every bit of information given out here and blindly accept something so confusing? Carolyn has stated time and again that any tomato created after 1940 is NOT an heirloom and yet there are a number of those in her book. At least, I'm consistent even if it's consistently negative, as Craig once stated!

There's another point that I'm going to make. Nowhere in the forum rules does it state that someone can not disagree with another. Just because someone says something is so, there is nothing which forbids rebuttal. That's the normal manner of discussions. Discussions can only take place between two or more people and they may have differing views and opinions on any subject. Just because you or Carolyn says YES to something doesn't mean that someone else can't say NO.

Insofar as this thread went, one person could be blamed for the way it went. He doesn't have to admit it but he knew the answers before asking the questions. When that began to get ridiculous, I think that I made it clear that enough of that fun was enough.

Now, if you wish, we can take this up in the Growing Tomatoes Forum. We can present a list of 100 varieties and critique each one as to their worthiness and right to be called a term that didn't officially apply to any of them 20 years prior. I don't think that we have to go that route. Just as with my acknowledging that I had the book, I wasn't about to admit it unless pushed into a corner. However, I never back into a corner without an escape hatch handy. Carolyn and Brook realized that and opted to allow me to not have to use that hatch. Your choice now, Earl. You opened that hatch after all was calm and came attacking from the rear! We don't need to appear like we're trying to bring down an empire now, do we? Or perhaps you do! You just know that I'm going to come out of that corner fighting!

However, if that's your choice, it would be terribly unfair to Carolyn. Just as an owner of a seed company can not come onto GW and engage in discussions, neither can any other commercial venture. Doesn't matter if they are selling tomato seeds, compost, plants, or anything else commercially connected to gardening. There are precedences which could be cited if there were any such defense by the author. That's not a far-fetched statement, that's fact and you know it! If you wish to go that route, say so but be prepared to share the bad-guy role.

For others wondering why I ended up with two totally different versions of Marianna's Peace, I never once suggest that perhaps it was my source where it became either crossed or mixed or whatever. Didn't feel a need to point my finger at a possible poor source. Could it have been a diabolical plan from the beginning? Send me the wrong or mixed stuff so that there'd be fuel for some future conflict? Virtually nothing is impossible. Incredible, yes, but possible! Nevertheless, I ain't saying since it had no bearing on this subject until now and ain't worth it.

Now, if anyone else has b*lls, as Earl so nicely typed it, you can petition the GW management to delete this thread in its entirety. Otherwise, should this thread continue under further hostile conditions, there WILL be a real discussion critiquing a fine book, page by page if needed. And it WILL be done within the stated purpose of the Growing Tomatoes Forum, within the normal rules of forum discussions, and under Garden Web rules. That is a promise, not an threat!

-30-

MARTIN


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Martin,

Why are you always so concerned with "rules"? Do you consider these forums contests or games? I don't. I consider them a place for friendly discussion and exchange of information. My friends and I seldom need rules, referees, commissions or appeal boards to regulate our conversations. Friendship and courtesy suffice.

Jim


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Martin is always right, haven't you figured that out Jim? Everybody else is wrong and if you think differently he will blather on and on for so long you'll get dizzy, forget what the original topic was and give up. Just like a little yappy dog that won't shut up, and even more annoying. He has the stamina of the energizer bunny wound just a bit too tight. I have never in my life seen anybody that liked to hear himself talk or write like a case of diarrea and enjoy the stench so much. Oh, I forgot. His crap doesn't stink.


 o
RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Especially so since the forum rules might prevent her from defending or explaining something

They don't.

I had discussed this with Spike two years ago.

I can discuss anything in my book with anyone who asks, and I can refer folks to specific pages in my book either for text or for pictures as an aid in what I'm writing.

And most of the time I don't need to refer folks to my book in answering questions. For what I wrote is still in my head and spills out rather easily. For pictures it's different.

What I can't do is to directly SELL my book, which I never have and never will. As I said, I discussed this with Spike to be sure there was no conflict of interest.

And if others name the book and discuss it that's OK too, just as they name and discuss other books such as Carol Deppe's, Wilbur's, Ashworth's, etc.

From the day I first posted in the Tomato Forum when folks have asked what the name of my book is, for the purpose of buying it, I have never once responded by giving that information. If other's don't, so be it.

There are several folks who are commercial who post here and that's also fine as long they aren't directly selling something. Only once since I've been here did I see someone commercial post a link to that person's website where plants were sold, and that is against the GW rules. I did not report it for I don't do things like that.

And no, I have no intention whatsoever of participating in any page by page discussion/critique of my book, or any page by page discussion/critique of ANY book by anyone that's mentioned and discussed here at GW.

Enough is enough.

Carolyn, who at this point is deeply saddened to see the way this thread has evolved and would support a general cease and desist decision ASAP, for nothing positive is really being accomplished, as I see it.


 o
RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Dukerdawg,

Your point is well taken.

Carolyn,

Your's is too. I wasn't thinking of your book when I commented about Martin's obsession with rules. (The fact that you have authored an important and popular book, from which you receive royalties, certainly does not disqualify you from participating in these forums. Quite the contrary!) If I recall correctly, Martin often cites "rules" with regard to usage of the term "heirloom" and seems to assume that there is some sort of official governing body with the authority to determine its definition. Or maybe he just wishes there were. I'm not sure. Believe me, I'm not trying to open that can of worms again. It's just another example.

Anyway, I also hope for these unpleasant distractions to fade away. That may be too high an expectation.. But, for my part, I will try to refrain from fueling the fires.

Jim


 o
RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

from which you receive royalties

In your dreams Jim, in your dreams. LOL

I didn't write the book for money, I was asked to write it and wrote it to share some of what I know about heirloom tomatoes and that's good b'c I haven't received one cent in royalties altho I did receive a non-returnable advance when it was published. ( smile)

(Anyway, I also hope for these unpleasant distractions to fade away. That may be too high an expectation.. But, for my part, I will try to refrain from fueling the fires.)

Thank you for that Jim and my wishes are the same as well.

Carolyn


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

"from which you receive royalties

In your dreams Jim, in your dreams. LOL "

Please, Carolyn, don't interfere with my dreams of becoming wealthy on the royalties of my next (well, OK, my first) book.

Jim


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Only one way that happens, Jim.

First, you become president.
Second, you serve badly, with lots of scandels.
Third, you write a book for which they pay you a ridiculous advance.

Although my last one _did_ earn back more than the advance I was paid---a distinct rarity. It's a very strange business.


 o
RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Well, that pretty well dashes my dreams of fame and fortune from book writing. I'm confident I could handle step two and probably step three, but that first one is pretty daunting. I'll have to try one of my other million dollar ideas.

Jim


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

Gee - didn't know that Dubya wrote his book yet....otherwise the fit is purrrrfect...

go ahead, guns blazing...

Craig


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

No blazing guns here Craig. Hmm...economy humming along...no senseless war...a little hanky-panky in the White House vs King George and Hitler Jr. Dick Chan..oop...better stop now.

D-


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

My man D!....a virtual toast to you with a great beer or a great wine (your choice)....perhaps a great tomato!!!

C


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

I finally just read all of these posts and noticed Martin's saga of the Yellow W55. I'm sure that everybody sees through his cr*p, but I'm going to have to call bullsh*t on at least part of his story. Martin hints that credit cannot go to Dr. Raabe in the catalog blurb because this might somehow tarnish his image. Yet Martin clearly identifies respected emeritus professor Dr. Robert Raabe in an earlier post. He seems to believe that long lost journals are going to note the missing seeds from this precious tomato (a tomato so precious that it was never released). Martin said that Raabe took some seeds, not that he ripped the entire plant out of the ground. And if some reputation tarnish will develop, we all know who took those seeds now, don't we? Thanks, Martin.

Martin, if you want to be the great savior of all things Wisconsin, have at it. Just have a little honesty in the process. I like WI cheese as much as the next guy, but yours really stinks.

Now back to more important things. My wife made it worth my while to take the Dubya bumber sticker out of my truck before the election. I am willing to compromise for peace.


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RE: Marihanas peace, & Sunset Red Horizon

  • Posted by garaj 9B CENTRAL FL (My Page) on
    Tue, Aug 30, 05 at 17:46

I can't help but be reminded of something Henry Kissinger once said," Arguments in academia are so vicious because the stakes are so small." Garaj


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