aw nuts, now you tell me!

I did write to you about info last winter-ish, and i DO still have the flier somewhere.

I might just ask for a membership for Christmas...

As Gardenlad states above, the AHSC Annual Conference was a major success. It was good to see old friends and meet new ones. Seed swapping was abundant along with the sharing of information and experiences. Many swaps and conversations were dominated by (but not limited to) Beans and Tomatoes. This is just a great group of people with a common goal!

-Blueflint

Actually, Garnetmoth, I've been telling people about it for months, here at GW and on other lists and forums.

There's always next year, though. We're already working on the next conference; and if anything it will be even better.

I hope you do join, whether for Christmas or any other time. The more members we have the better able we'll be to preserve these great old-time varieties that are rapidly disappearing.

Not only join, but participate in programs like our Living Seed Bank, which helps assure that somebody, somewhere is growing these veggies all the time.

I had a good day at the Fall Conference of the Appalachian Heirloom Seed Conservancy; This was my third visit to the Farm --- The Sustainable Mountain Agriculture Center
http://www.heirlooms.org/index.html in Berea, KY. SMAC is an amazing place with Bill Best and his folks. AHSC and SMAC compliment one another in their efforts to preserve the diversity of seed from the mountain regions. Julie Maruskin's Library Project Presentation was informative and professional. I can understand why the senion citzens in her area are so excited about learning and growing heirloom vegetables!
I met several new folks and enjoyed talking with Tom Greenwood from OK who was a presenter (he grows 100+ varieties of Garlic and lots of Onions including Papa Gary's Potato Onion) and Merlyn Niedens, presenter on Seed Saving. Merlyn introduced the Tappy's Heritage Tomato and grows tomato and several other varieties of vegetable seed for three seed companys.

Attendance this year was good; and the interaction with the presenters and those present was open and helpful. The weather was cooler; Since I was there last year I took along an extra heavy jacket, and my Lap robe which I used; they had some heat and I was comfortable.

There were a number of folks with with seed to share but only a few with tomato seed. I managed to get a few of the following varieties to bring home.
Gary/Louisville

Italian Black Tomato
75 day, determinate, regular leaf, small oblong fruit, green shoulders, dark red bottom, takes long while to ripen.

'TITAN' TOMATOES FROM KRASNODAR, RUSSIA -----Russian family heirloom

Max's Green
Heirloom, Large green tomato, smokey sweet flavor, turns slightly amber when ripe.

William's Striped
Heirloom from Central Kentucky. Elderly 80+ year old gentleman said he could no longer garden and gave these seed(He could not remember the name of the variety.) to this individual; the seed had been stored in a glass medicine bottle for 11 years; and, they got germination. Large yellow with red stripes throughout and very good flavor.

Gary,

FWIW, I helped introduce the "Titan" tomato, and that's a widespread corruption of it's actual name.

The seed stock originally came from Mariana Belfer,of Brooklyn, NY, whose housekeeper, Lubov Koniva, imported the seed from her sister in the town of Krasnodar. They've been in her family since at least 1876.

Mariana introduced them as "Krasnodar Titans," and that's the name we used while publicizing the variety and distributing seed. Between us we've sent out more than a thousand envelopes under that name. It's listed in the SSE yearbook under this name as well.

Just wanted to point this out, so that anyone with Krasnodar Titans seed understands that Titan is not a different variety.

I certainly didn't have time to count, but, according to Roger Postley, there were 120 tomato varieties being offered for trade during the conference. As you know, tomatoes are Roger's specialty, so I'm quite willing to accept that figure.

B,

Gary had posted what he wrote above elsewhere and I gave him the background on Krasnodor Titans as well, in detail from Mariana when she sent me my seeds, and also explained how you "talked" Mariana, whom you'd met at a website, into offering seeds thru Mother Earth News. ( smile) I also offered what I thought of the variety and also that you and Mariana thought pretty much the same. She said the first year she grew it she thought it was pretty good, but after that she reassesed her position That is, perhaps best as a canner but not as a fresh eating tomato with walls that thick, OK but not spectacular taste and quite indestructible on the vine. I listed it at SSE two years ago, as you noted above, but haven't gotten many requests.

I also gave Gary the background on Italian Black.

Since when did Donna, whom I knew as an SSE member, switch from tomatoes to beans, for I know her primarily re tomatoes? Or is she still growing lots of tomatoes?

As for Shaker seeds, I think it's good to point out that the Shakers themselves had no so called Shaker heirloom veggies. What they grew and sold were varieties they got from the commercial sources of the day where they did the seed production after buying the initial seeds.

You might remember that until I moved north one hour in 1999 from where I lived that I was but a few miles from the original Shaker settlement of Mother Ann Lee near the Albany Airport.

I designed and implemented a Shaker about 1850 vegetable garden for the Shaker Historical Society and in doing that had to research what they grew back then. So I've done quite a bit of research on Shaker vegetable varieties myself. Again, I mean not their own heirlooms, but what they offered from commercial sources.

I'm glad to see that activities are going well for the group. I met Merlyn, I think, in Decorah a few years back, but I don't know if he remembers. Actually it was the same summer when I met you and your wife.

Do you still smoke cigars? LOL

Carolyn

I reckon I'm the last hold-out, Carolyn. You've quit smoking. Friend Wife has quite smoking. But the tendrils of smoke still rise from my stoggies.

Of course you're fundamentally correct about the Shakers. But the same could be said about many 19th century seed suppliers. That is, they grew seed from commonly available varieties (either under the same or different names), and distributed that seed through trade channels.

Unlike, say, Livingston or Henderson or Burpee, I would guess that most seed distributors were not breeders, but merely distributors.

The Shaker contribution to what we now consider heirlooms is that seed sales were a major source of income for them. So they kept alive varieties we might not otherwise have.

One of Debra's major points, and the one particularly germane to AHSC, was that the Shaker settlements at Pleasant Hill and South Union were the only southern enclaves. As such, their seed market was in the south, and they grew & distributed seeds suitable for that market---in many cases, different varieties than those offered by their northern cousins.

One great thing about the Shakers is that they kept meticulous records. So we can research their agricultural endeavers relatively easily---particularly as their records are in English.

The Morovian missionaries similarly kept great records---if anything, going into even greater detail than the Shakers. Unfortunately, their records are in German, and if you can't read that language it's hard to do the research.

One last point re: the Shaker seed industry. I would kill for one of their POP seed boxes.

I have no idea if Donna is still into tomatoes. My first contact with her resulted from an article she did about beans in one of SSE's Summer Editions, in which everything she said flew in the face of conventional wisdom. All my correspondence with her since has dealt with beans and other legumes (i.e., cowpeas).

I'm a big believer in providing forums for other voices---I think we really learn more that way---so invited her to address AHSC.

Earlier this year Donna gifted AHSC with a collection of Appalachian bean and cowpea seeds that literally doubled our accessions in those areas, and many of them are being grown out now as part of our Living Seed Bank project.

I guess I just havent checked into this forum specifically that much recently. And, as a college grad without a job yet (Yay, i have 2 bachelor degrees and can find no entry level work, Mall for me this christmas season :-p ) its not something I can do right now

I am getting involved with a community garden in Nashville, and we have one older gentleman who was a farmer in Alabama(?) in his youth.

Ive got so much to learn!

One last point re: the Shaker seed industry. I would kill for one of their POP seed boxes.

And just what would you kill? LOL

All I have, which I treasure, is the label from a can of tomatoes, what else, that was framed when I bought it, and remains framed. Price for one label about 20 years ago? $125.00

I've seen several of the POP boxes, some better than others in terms of legibility of the lists inside the lids and would love to have one as well, but seriously, how much money am I willing to pay?

My former CPA is on the board of the Chatham, NY Shaker Museum, or was last I knew, which is the largest and most complete anywhere. Well I remember when it first was being put together b/c they visited all those places known to be owned by the Shakers at one time, which included our farmhouse and barns, etc.

Once my father discovered someone else had interest in some of the Shaker objects/furniture he found interest in them as well, and guarded them strongly. LOL

And yes, I have some of them with me here in my new place. Not major stuff furniture wise but several small cabinets we took off the kitchen wall, that kitchen being the first dwelling form the late 1700's, and oval boxes and a candlestand I found in the attic, and similar. Knowing they would be destroying the old farmhouse after we sold I wished I could have even had part of the Shaker bannisters. LOL

AS to seed distributors, it really depends on what time period one is talking about as to what the commercial seed sources were to the Shakers and others. But no, the Shakers did no breeding, just distributing. And their money came not just from vegetable seed but also from herbs, which was a very important part of their life style as well.

No one has taken over doing a reproduction veggie garden at the main Shaker complex but they do have a superb herb garden and always have.

I hear they do a large reproduction garden at Lebanon but someone told me it isn't completely authentic.

I recently read a superb biography of Mother Ann Lee, written in England, which details her background in England before she and just a few others left and landed in NYC. Her early marriage, loss of children, getting rid of her husband in NYC, initial trek to where she first settled, her initial forays into NE and then ends with her death.

And let me tell you, what was Shakerism to her and the early folks is NOT the Shakerism we know of today that has been popularized.

She thought she was the female resurrection of Christ, taught same, and others who followed her thought the same.

No lovely furniture, simple living, more existance living, no broom corn brooms, no anytrhihng like that. Just pure religion, their style, which actually almost didn't survive after her death.

'Tis a gift to be simple, 'tis a gift to be free was not the guiding principle early on, it was more like we're starving, the marshlands have flooded again ( that's where the Albany Airport now is, LOL) and we lost all our crops, the snow cover is too deep and no one has been able to trap beaver, otter, fox, rabbit and whatever for fresh meat for the pigs died as well.

Carolyn

>And just what would you kill?I ain't particular, Carolyn. :>) You know the unofficial motto of the Marine Corps? Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out.

Seriously, I would almost have to kill to get one, cuz nobody with a reasonable income can afford to buy one. At least not one in good shape. Even the reproductions are rather pricy.

I've seen pictures of some originals in surprisingly good shape, though.

>'Tis a gift to be simple, 'tis a gift to be free was not the guiding principle..... Of course the same can be said for practically all the non-mainstream religous groups and utopian communities from the Pilgrams onwards. Almost all of them were founded by, and had early proponents who were mostly urban type folks. Suddenly they're in a situation where they have to produce their own food, clothing, lodging, etc., with little training (and sometimes, as in the case with Rugby, even less inclination) in what that meant.

That they evolved from what the founders envisioned into something else is a natural progression, something virtually all cults and religions share in common.

Those that adapted survived---at least for a little while. The rest were assimilated into mainstream society. In most cases, that assimilation and adaption to mainstream life was accelerated after the founder's passing.

What marks the Shakers as special, from our point of view, is that they survived longer than most (there's still a Shaker community up in Maine), and that they were involved directly in something that is of interest to us; i.e., seeds and related agricultural practices.

Brook -
So glad to hear the AHSC was great - would have expected no less. Next year........ I need to renew membership but can't remember if it starts in January or if now is the time to do it? Sounds like some really interesting presentations.
Hi to Barb. Hope to see you in the spring. We'll sit down, have a smoke (one for Carolyn too) and talk seeds. What fun!
Robbins
How'd the Brown Cornfield beans do?

Hey, Kiddo

Nice to hear you're still with us. AHSC membership runs calander year to calander year, starting March 1. Anyone who joins (or renews) after December 15, however, has their membership apply to the entire next fiscal year. That is, if you join or renew this December, your membership runs through 2006.

Wasn't able to grow-out the Brown Cornfield. That's one of the reasons the Living Seed Bank is so important to us; the more growers involved the larger the number of varieies we can assure are being grown.

I'm convinced, given their appearance and history, that they're the same variety known as Kentucky Goose, so am less concerned about them than I am about that Amish tomato you sent; which also has to be grown out.

Are you going to the Small Farm Conference in Columbia? I'll be speaking at that one. Topic is marketing heirloom veggies.

My wife and I had a great time. As a new member I didn't know what to expect, the food was great, atmosphere warming and the people the best gardening friends anyone could ask for including Roger. I can't wait till next year. I added several new seed to my collection and returned several seed to others. Wish I had brought tomatoe seed sorry Roger. Some of my loot includes some new melons and okra thanks to Merlyn two new field peas to add to my over seventy varieities. some beans thanks Bill and a new colored Willow Leaf Butter Bean which has different colors than the one I already had thanks to Donna also several new tomatoes thanks Roger and Georgia. I can't wait till spring to grow them all out. I had never been to Kentucky and True Southern Hospitality reigned. Thanks Bill and Brook. We also stayed a few extra days at a B&B called Snug Hollow toured Lexington's horse country ate with the horseman at Wallace station drove the Appalachian country side and the leaf color was spectacular. And finally the trip wouldn't have been complete unless we stopped at Jim Beam distillary for a tour and sample Thanks again to everyone there It was great.Rodger and Karen

Brook - Hope to see you at the Small Farms conference - not sure which day we are going and will be on our way to Indiana and annual visit with mom. What is membership fee - can't remember. Guess I'd best wait until after Dec.15th.

Rodger - 70 varieties of cowpeas - you are the man of my dreams! I'd love to trade, beg, buy - steal - some. Are you listed with them somewhere? SSE, AHSC? We only grow about 15 varieties so there are so many I've not yet tried! Your trip sounds delightful - a perfect fall galavant.

Robbins

would like information on joining the AHSC. We are native Kentuckians, but live now in Tennessee. Are there any upcoming farm conferences for small farmers that we could possibly attend that anyone is aware of? We specialize in Heirloom varieties of vegetables on our farm and grow Organically. Thanks

For membership information, just send your snail mail addy to KentuckySeeds@hotmail.com, and we'll get a brochure right out to you.

BTW, this year's conference has been scheduled for the weekend of October 6-8, in case anyone needs to start making plans.

Just bumping this to let everyone know that all the details have been worked out for the 2006 conference, and it looks like the best one yet.

Anybody interested in the program and other details, along with a registration form, can contact AHSC at KentuckySeeds@hotmail.com.