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david_vermont

Hellebores for zone 4

David_Vermont
19 years ago

I'm located in zone 4 and wish to start a collection of Hellebores for a shade garden that I will be starting this spring. I have been doing some research and have found out most that are offered for sale are complex hybrids with varying degrees of hardiness. These can be expensive plants and I don't want to buy something that isn't right for our climate. Then there is the whole seedling verses cultivar debate. Since I'm a Hellebores "virgin" what should I do? Start out with named cultivar or seedlings?

David

Comments (24)

  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You are going to be limited in your selection simply due to your hardiness zone - very few species and nearly none of the common hybrids are going to be hardy for you. I'd start out with Helleborus niger, the Christmas rose. Tough and hardy to zone 4. Not a lot of choices in color - white and sometimes a pale pink that darkens with age - but you can find named forms although the species itself is a fine plant.

    You could attempt H. x hybridus or what are commonly referred to as orientalis hybrids. These are some of the most popular and have by far the largest color range but are not available as named forms, only seed strains. They are listed as hardy to zone 6 but some easterners are able to grow them in colder areas. Maybe you'll get a response from someone closer to your zone that can advise more directly on their ability to handle your climate.

    The rest I'm afraid, with the possible exception of atrorubens, are probably not going to work for you at all.

  • abgardeneer
    19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, some species are remarkably hardy, though they certainly aren't the "harbingers of spring" here that they are out on the coast. (They wisely keep their heads down until spring is really here, LOL! And they don't reach the huge proportions that I see on the coast either, not surprisingly, given the much dryer and overall less friendly climate here.) I know that the keener gardeners around here are growing them, though I can only speak from my own limited experience.
    I've had the same Helleborus orientalis since pre-1999, so that's pretty good, I'd say.
    I planted a Helleborus x hybridus 'Red Mountain' last year, so it will be interesting to see how it does.
    Hmmm, I must try some other species this spring.

  • bruceNH
    19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    David, if you are in the hills, in a woodland, you probably have good snow cover. This is a huge help. If you have an exposed climate, that is open, you may have difficulties.

    I have had a H.x hybridus for 28 years in zone 5. Even with late transplanting they winter fine. I have had success with many other hybrids, but hybrids being hybrids they vary from strain to strain.

    Sorry to go on about me, if you have a protected area that keeps good snow, H.x hybridus and many other species should do fine. I like to grow my own hellebore from seed, or purchase small plants. You should decide what you would like for a hellebore or hellebores. Doubles, singles, species, large flowered, small flowered, sepal colors, out facing, nodding, OK, enough, I want them all!

    As far as niger, if you happen to live in an alkaline area in zone 4, niger may be a huge delight for you.

    Always Gardening,
    Bruce

  • bruceNH
    19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My x hybridus start to flower around April 1st.

  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Whoa - zones do make a difference!! My x hybridus bloom in January and February and nigers in December. By April all the old flowers have been cut back and removed. Even seeds have fully ripened by then.

  • bruceNH
    19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    H.niger flowers with H.x hybridus for me. My seed is ready to collect in late June, early July. My soil is frozen solid and thaws around the end of March. David must live in the hills, I live in the river valley, he has reliable snow cover, I do not. He also has alkaline soil, I have acid soil. Alkaline soils are an exception in VT not the rule. Northern VT and parts of Bennington County have pockets and larger areas of alkaline soils.

    Wished I had a PH of 7.3!

  • David_Vermont
    Original Author
    19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I live in the very southern tip of the Champlain Valley which has an alkaline clay based rock free soil. It's in this area that the Taconic Mountains die out close to the beginning of the Adirondack Mountains to the west and the Green Mountains to the east. Montreal, Quebec is almost due north and the direction of which Lake Champlain drains. We live at an elevation of 400 and the valley is becoming very narrow and mixing with these limestone rich hills. It's in this spot that several plant species live at their northern most spot of their range. Sure do hope that I can make some Hellebores happy!

    Bruce, can I trade some alkaline soil for some Helleborus seed?

  • Greenmanplants
    19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    A lot depends on the degree of frost exposure before snow cover, zone 4 by iself does not convey enough information. Many of the native habitats for the species have snow cover and at 2" underground are not that cold, despite severe air temperatures above the snow.

    Cheers Greenmanplants

  • bruceNH
    19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Greenmanplants, in the fall if we have a late snow and the ground has become froze, a good snow cover will insulate the ground and the frost will disappear. This is due to the thermal warmth of the Earth. When we have a series of thaws and cold snaps in that the snow cover melts, the soil freezes and this cycle is repeated throughout winter is when I have the greatest ground frost and coldest soil temperatures. This year the snow has melted repeatedly, followed by very cold temperatures for days and has placed about 1 foot of frost into the ground. This frost will settle over two feet deep into the earth before the thermal warmth thaws the frost completely. This is why in my zone we have to have any permanent structures built on footings four feet deep. Not that we have four feet of frost but the frost in the spring can settle to three feet. If the frost settles below your footings your footings may move.

    David, I am in the Connecticut River valley in southern NH. Geology wise, I can stand here in New Hampshire on what was Africa and look at those old hills of North America in Vermont!

  • David_Vermont
    Original Author
    19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    In the good old days we would get a slight degree of frost in the ground followed by a snow cover that would last for months, frequently all the way to spring. Some years a midwinter thaw would cause us to loose that snow cover... but not always. These days our weather bounces all over creation and we have had more open winters (no snow cover). Sometimes a snowless winter would include an Arctic blast that would settle down upon us with a -35 degrees F temperatures. This cold weather could send the frost down as much as 7 feet. Wooded areas stand a better chance of keeping the snow and my future woodland garden is such a spot.

    As Bruce mentioned a snow cover can insulate the ground nicely and sometimes a frost can be forced out of the ground after a good snow cover is established. I have found that my perennials tend to overwinter better if we have a frost of about a foot followed by a foot or more of snow. Snowless winters are a curse to Vermont gardeners!

  • Greenmanplants
    19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks Guys,
    It's certainly better to get some frost first as snow over warm ground induces the plants to rot. My sister gardens in Ontario and I have some friends who garden in Sweden who both have the same temperature range you're talking about, the issue is on the snowless state as you say. I'll check with them to see what else they have tried.

    Thanks Greenmanplants

  • bruceNH
    19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yes David, frozen ground under the snow can be beneficial. If I have snow cover and the ground is not froze the varmints, pine voles, field mice and deer mice have a picnic. The varmints are able to travel freely under the snow and feed on the perennials. Not only does the frozen ground create a hardship for these rodents but the snow cover protects them from predators, hawks, owls, fishers, bob cats, fox and coyote.

    Hellebores are varmint proof, even deer shy away from hellebores.

  • lilysgarden
    19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi David,

    I live and garden in Southern NH in zone 4b/5a and have been growing quite a few Hellebore species, for a number of years, quite successfully. Yes, I usually have snow cover for the whole of the winter season as my property lies on the north facing slope of a hilly area here in the Lyndeboro/Wilton area... snow remains here for me, most years, through 'til mid April or later... where just, literally, a mile down the road snow cover is only a memory by mid March. Always trying to re-prove 'The Provenance Theory', I have grown a few of the claimed to be not hardy Hellebore species from seed, including H. lividus (which has remained evergreen for me for the past three years by the way). My H. argutifolius has faithfully flowered (both the solid green leafed form, and the variegated 'Janet Starnes' strain) for me for a number of years as well. H. hybridus forms continue to form larger and larger flowering clumps as each season passes and H. foetidus has nearly become a weed for me with its seed dispersal and germination... with flowering plants by year two. H. niger is glorious each season and H. tibetanus faithfully re-emerges each spring after its long dormancy starting in summer. The H. hybridus doubles and anemone forms (including 'Mrs. Betty Ranicar'), started from seed three or four years ago should/will hopefully bloom this year... in other words... you should be able to grow Hellebores quite successfully in your zone as they truly are hardy little buggers. Without snow cover, some evergreen boughs placed 'over' and around your Hellebores should keep them quite happy through a barren winter... I would think. I also do not grow my Hellebores as 'Shade Plants'... my most floriforus and largest clumps are in nearly full sun... something we can get away with up here in the North where gardeners down South may site them with more shade. Be aware of the micro climates and wind patterns in your gardens, soil drainage etc. and you should be able to have beautiful beds full of Hellebores in no time!

    Bruce,

    So good to see that you are still around.. I have not ventured here for so long that it sure was nice to see your posts. What do you think... wanna do some more trading? I plan on bringing some of my Double and Anemone forms to the plant auction at the April NARGS meeting. Will you be going? It sure would be great to finally meet you!

    Good gardening to all,
    Lily

  • bruceNH
    19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello Lily!

    Nah, you know me better than that, I do not venture too far from home. We should trade this year, very skeptical about trading with you plant collectors. I do remember your excitement on your purchase of tibetanus, your described dash, still brings a smile!

    Has your tibetanus set seed? Mine grew empty pods, very disappointed. I believe the conditions for good pollination were too cold and wet. Hopefully this spring.

    Yes, drainage, David, hellebore do not like wet feet, especially in cold weather.

    Lily, I was not serious about the plant collector comment, nice too see you!

    Kindly Bruce

  • lilysgarden
    19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi there Bruce!

    Your note brought a smile to my face as well. So good to hear from you. Gosh, so much has happened since we last exchanged emails, plants and seeds... be that as it may, and if I cannot get you to commit to the NARGS meeting in April, than I shall just have to settle for a trade, or two, or three...

    Spring is just around the corner!

    Lily

    PS. My latest focus has, believe it or not, moved from plant collecting to collecting Avian species! Would you be interested in some beautiful, friendly Ring Necked Doves? or maybe a few Button Quail? How about some Chuckar Partridge? Golden Pheasants? Silver Pheasants? Birchen Modern Game? ;o) Hopefully I will have some Blue Emperor Peacocks in the spring... oh the joys of OCDs!

  • MichaelB_MAz6
    19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi All,

    I have been lurking here for a while. (as in the rest of gardenweb). I wanted to thank all for their previous posts over the years! espcially bruceNH Has been helpful in my limited hellebore growing.

    lilysgarden, Does wanting to raise birds/poultry go with hellebore collecting? I only say this because I wanted chickens here on my little urban lot for quite a while, and David_Vermont (from his webpage) raises them to!

    On to hellebores

    H. argutifolius: Mine have flowered only once in 3 years, am hopeful about the snowcover this year. It did self sow a few seedlings from that flowering tho.

    H. foetidis didn't make through winter of 2003/04 but left numerous seedlings behind. I can only hope for weedlike!

    H. hybridus forms are finally clumping up

    June 2004

    Michael

  • lilysgarden
    19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello there Michael,
    *smile* I truly don't know if there is any connection between growing/collecting Hellebores (a low maintenance long lived perennial) and raising/collecting Avian species (quite low maintenance, some long lived) or not, but I will tell you that my gardens and plants are bountiful and beautiful with their mainstay diet of poultry manure... the Helleborus foetidus, original parent plant, is still growing strong at a good 2 ft tall X 3+ ft wide and the only additional food suppliment that it has ever gotten is composted chicken manure! I had made the comment to Bruce, concerning my new collection, as he had known me for my obsessive, compulsive plant collecting 'problem' and thought that he might get a chuckle out of the fact that my most recent obsession includes, not just blooming beauties in the garden, but winged beauties as well. For me, I am certain that there is a spiritual connection between all living things.. be it in the serenity and peace found strolling through the gardens, or just sitting watching the birds and listening to their song... anything that helps to bring a calm spirit is tops on my list! If you ever do decide to get yourself a few bantams or other breed of poultry, than by all means email me privately and I will give you the names of some wonderful local breeders (right in MA)... if, that is, I don't have the breed that you are wanting. ;o)

    Lily

    PS I have, most often, considered my ADHD to be an asset, but when you add OCD's to the mix... watch out! *laugh*

  • jgwoodard
    19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi all. Nice thread you've got here.

    Lily, I'm fascinated by what I saw in your post. Have you sought seeds/plants based on provenance related to hardiness? Some might read your post regarding lividus and think it downright heresy! :)

    Presumably, some lividus and argutifolius plants might be hardier at the highest points of their native islands. Do your plants get any sun during winter? You mentioned being North facing and I've heard other reports of hellebores growing in very cold but with no winter sun.

    Ahh, hellebores... Think you know them, then you find a lividus happy in zone 5. :-)

  • bruceNH
    19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I would not trust lividus or argustifolious here in the garden, though I probably should give them a try. I do have lividus but I do not winter them outside. The lividus has been through some hard frost and have withstood these frost well, but being that they seem to be more persistent in placing on late season growth I do believe both argutifolius and livious would be tough for me to winter, I should try them, I may get surprised.

    Well Lily, I have had fowl many years ago, Millie Flore Bantams, not sure if the spelling is correct. I loved watching these bantams in the garden, and listening to the roosters crow at night, as I am sure my neighbors shared in my delight. Now, I have five cats, though I guess with work an arrangement could be worked out between the cats and fowl, larger fowl certainly will stand up to a cat, I have seen very few barn roosters put up with a cats harassment!

    Yes Lily, your experiment in provenance caught my interest to.

  • lilysgarden
    19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    jgwoodard,
    In all honesty, the seeds that I have sought are based purely on a selfish desire to grow certain genus/species that I simply want in my garden. I seem to have only tried genus that claim hardy to zone 7, and, as much as I live in zonal denial, I still have not tried growing any zone 8 genus/species from seed... now there's a thought. ;o) Since I am, by nature, a true pack rat, then I should still have the original article about 'The Provenance Theory' which I had read a good ten years ago. This article has truly stuck in my mind as it simply was a validation of what I had believed, and tried, all along. Simply stated, it is believed that when a seed begins its life in a colder zone than it has been living and growing, some genetic memory is 'unlocked'... brought on by the extreme cold conditions that the seed has now found itself in... nature's plants sole purpose is survival and continuance of its species and, therefore, will access its genetic memory and ability to do so under much different conditions than 'normal'. I start all of my seed in outdoor seed beds where nature can provide all of the cold stratification necessary to turn the key to this genetic memory. I laugh at your heresy comment, as both John Dudley (Elizabeth Town Hellebores) and Roy Herold ('The Arisaema Page' and breeder of many well known Hosta, including 'Red October') find my growing habits 'shocking'. When I had emailed John Dudley to tell him of just how wonderful his H. lividus seedlings were doing, he sent me an email in return where I could just about see his jaw hitting the floor... of course I have promised him that I would continue to keep him up to date on how things progress with them over the years. Of the 30 - 50 H. lividus plants that I have growing, still in their original seed bed, all have remained evergreen throughout the winter... even from their first year as small seedlings! I have found a great gardening friend in Roy Herold over the years, through our local New England NARGS group, and he now just laughs and shakes his head when I tell him of each new species that I 'try' to grow from seed. ;o) As a matter of fact, when spring does arrive here in my zone 5b/4a garden the first thing that I do is to check to see if the Paeonia cambessedessii, that I grew from seed years ago, has survived another winter. So far so good. I just hope that I won't have to eat my words any time soon. The H. lividus really haven't received much of any winter sun, as where they are sited, the snow usually covers them fully and remains for a long time. H. argutifolius 'Janet Starnes' also does not receive winter sun... although it is sited in a true south facing section of the garden... just off my back deck, the snow is shoveled over top of it and, therefore, it is often covered by three feet or more of the white stuff. The three H. argutifolius that I have growing further out in the 'open' garden, get much sun and wind throughout the winter yet do have snow around their base (if we have a 'mild' winter they may have 4"-6" or so, when we have a 'true New England' winter then they can be covered over completely by the white stuff) I plan on moving a 'drift' of the H. lividus out into the open garden this spring, well drained soil of course, and will continue to record how they perform. I must say, though, that a mature green house grown H. lividus plant given to me by Roy Herold, did survive out in the open garden as well. I had thought that I had lost it as it did not show its head in the spring, all of a sudden... there it was!...it didn't show its pretty foliage until summer last year. :o)

    Bruce,
    Yes, one of my cats is sometimes too excited about watching the chickens and just can't resist making them all scatter and fly up into the trees squawking.. the others just ignore them. And, oh you are so right about the barnyard 'king of the roost' who doesn't put up with much guff from anyone or anything. And, by the way, I would love the opportunity to give a fellow 'Moo-Hampshirite' a try at growing H. lividus in their garden... sounds like a trade coming up. ;o)

  • David_Vermont
    Original Author
    19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    During that nasty cold spell that we had this winter my poor old rooster finally turned up his toes. Luckily I have a nice memory of his last morning crow before we hit -35 degrees for a third night in a row. Thoughts of bringing him inside did fly through my head but with four chicken chasing afghan hounds I don't think that the humans would have lived! He'll get a burial in the garden and can be a time release fertilizer for some nitrogen starved Helleborus.

    David

  • jgwoodard
    19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Lily, I don't have any H. lividus species plants, but I do have many plants of H. lividus 'Rachel' which came from John Dudley. I recall it was maybe was a lividus backcrossed with H x sternii 'Boughton Beauty' or something like that. I also have sternii. They have all performed beautifully so far through two winters in the open garden with the leaves showing no damage.

    It is usually the plants that are three or more years old that are most affected in my garden. I believe young seedlings are less affected in part because of the smaller surface area of the foliage and because they are short and closer to the insulating properties of the earth. I get blooms on argutifolius but few and not much seed usually. There are so many variables of course, but like you I'm willing to put seed out there and see what happens. I like the theory you mention as well. I tend to believe environmental factors play a key role in how genetic material functions, and as mentioned non-temperature factors also play a key role.
    And I typically sow all my seed in the open garden. I have also seen photos of robust and healthy H x hybridus plants growing in zone 10 which is not usually listed (though it was a dry region and maybe irrigated).

    The more plants people grow, the more we will learn. In the US at least, still relatively little is known about the limits of hellebore culture. The climate has all sorts of extremes. For example, I don't recall much information coming out of the southwest US but no doubt many hellebores will flourish in large parts of the region.

    Bruce I think you should give them a try. If you have some extra seeds there isn't much to lose, and you can help contribute to a better understanding of the genus (of course you have contributed so much through these forums already). I do wonder about the sunlight issue. Plants in full winter shade or under snow may not have to go through the continual freeze and thaw cycles as much. Even at freezing temperatures, the heat and rays of the sun affect the plant. Maybe if it just stays cold and dark-ish it can simply stay in "freeze mode".

  • bruceNH
    19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yes Joseph, dormancy is key to most plants survival here. Preparing for winter and sleeping through winter, waiting for spring. And yes, I do germinate hellebore seed of many different species from many different regions.

    In general plants that slow their growth down early and prepare their selves for winter and stay dormant the longest, perform best for me. Native plants start preparing for winter, that is they slow any top growth in August, though hellebore are a very cool weather plant and can sprout growth late, this always makes me feel uneasy.

    I have found that lily is correct, my x hybridus grown in full sun has terrible looking foliage in the spring but these plants in full sun grow at a much faster rate and to a larger size with more flowers than x hybridus planted in the shade. The winter sun does not seem to effect a dormant x hybridus, but if a x hybridus rises early or flowers in late fall they tend to get frosted and skip flowering for that season.

    As far as contributing to the forums, one reaps what one has sown and cultivated, I give and share with others as others have gave and shared with me.

    Bruce

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