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brucenh

FAQ #6 Can I Cross Plants

bruceNH
21 years ago

6) Can I cross plants to try to produce seeds that

have qualities from both parent plants? How?

Comments (14)

  • pansgardener_waz7
    21 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yes,If both plants are of superior qualit you can make them both pod parents of each others polen. In other words, take polen from each plant and put it on the other plant. As you know Hellebore seed is very variable and some seedlings will have all the worst characteristics of each plant. These are the ones you have to get rid of but some seedlings will have some good characteristics of one or other ,or both parents.Then there will be maybe one or a couple with exactly what you are looking for. these are the only ones you should spend time breeding. The best part is that once you get that one you will see where the next step is to improve your plants even more.I think I read on here somewhere that the best plants never are for sale.That is absolutly true.Why in the world would any one sell a plant they may have spent 8,10, or maybe 20 years to get and have to start their breeding program all over. I saw some of the breeding stock at Herronswood. Totally awsome......and absolutely not for sale. J

  • carol23_gw
    21 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Some plants can be hybridized but others cannot, depending on species.
    Plant A will be the seed parent, Plant B the pollen parent.
    According to the guide at Ashwood, the stigma ( female part at the center of the flower) glistens when receptive to pollen. The stigma is normally receptive before the anthers release pollen on that flower.
    Remove ( emasculate) the anthers of plant A, so the pollen on that flower will not affect the cross by self-pollination. Take pollen from Plant B with a Qtip or small paint brush and transfer the pollen to the stigma of Plant A.
    You can do a cross of the same plants in reverse, too. Take a flower on Plant B, look for receptive stigma, remove anthers, collect pollen from Plant A and transfer to plant B.
    The details of the cross, " Purple double x anemone flowered pink" can be written on a plastic tag and placed around the stem just below the flower.

  • bruceNH
    Original Author
    21 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The question, if you can cross pollinate a hellebore and have the qualities of the parents is a very complex question. It depends on the hellebore.

    The caulescent species of hellebore, argutifolius, foetidus and lividus, will produce plants like theirselves if pollinated with the same species. Argutifolius will hybridize with lividus producing a hybrid called Helleborus x sternii. Argutifolius does not readily cross with H. foetidus or H.lividus.

    The acaulescent species of hellebore, viridus, orientalis, multifidus, purpurascens, atrorubens, torquatus, odorus, cyclophyllus and dumetorum all will hybridize with each other. The uncertain one in this group is Helleborus viridus, it has not been widely used in hybridizing but should be compatible with the other acaulescent species. All the above acaulescent species will produce hybrids when crossed pollinated with the resulting plants that are different than the parents. If you take the resulting hellebores and self pollinate them the resulting hellebore will be different in this generation too.

    This leaves Helleborus Niger and Helleborus thibetanus. Helleborus niger is not a caulescent or acaulescent hellebore. It will pollinate with and create hybrids when crossed with H.argutifolius, H.lividus and H.foetidus. There are reports of H.niger hybrids with aculescent species, but these reports have little scientific support.

    Helleborus thibetanus has not been placed in any hellebore group, but with certainty will fall into the acaulescent group and be compatible with the other species for hybridizing, but this is widely unknown.

    I would like to point out that there is little scientific studies done on the above statements. It is not known if all the acaulescent species are compatible with each other for hybridizing. Helleborus vesicarius is certainly a large unknown in hybridizing as well as H.thibetanus.

    By now you must be either very bored with this or lost. All you wanted to know is if you crossed your best purple with your other best purple would you get a better purple. You might or you might not. It all depends on the plants genetics.

    Helleborus x hybridus are hybrids with very mixed genetics. Until you cross two H.x hybridus or self pollinate a H. x hybidus and grow the resulting seed to flower you will not know. This is what Hellebore hybridizing is all about, parent selection, good record keeping and a clear goal in mind of what you like in a hellebore.

    For the most part, most Helleborus x hybridus are a complex hybrid of many generations and most will deliver mixed results from seed. Are they worth growing from seed? Yes I think they are. Two nice hybrid hellebore of similar color or form when crossed or selfed pollinated should produce some nice plants. If you take these offspring and repeat this process you should be able to improve and get an idea of the possibilities of the hellebore. It takes 2 to 3 years to see your results, 3 to 5 years for a good evaluation of the hellebore in the garden. It well may be ten years for you to have an outstanding selection of hellebores you are hybridizing with.

    I think that if you are going to grow hellebores from seed, regardless of your interest, species or hybrids, you should hand pollinate and take control. It is easy to pollinate and hellebores produce alot of seed.

  • carol23_gw
    21 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Bruce, maybe you and Tim can make a list of species that will cross and their resulting plant names, and if they will be sterile hybrids like x nigercors ( cross of niger x argutifolius)
    or if they produce seed, like sternii.
    Are we all bored now?

  • bruceNH
    Original Author
    21 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I made a mistake in the above post, in the third paragraph it should be "The uncertain one in this group is H.vesicarius" NOT "The uncertain one in this group is H.viridus.

    Sorry

    One other point to make, there is much confusion of Helleborus vesicarious and what group of hellebores it belongs, if in any group at all.

    Bruce

  • Doris_J
    21 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm not bored!

    I would like more information on traits that certain types of Hellebores are likely to produce. For example, anemone flowering hybrids can be used to produce a certain percentage of doubles. Which plants may be likely to produce spotted flowers, yellows, etc. Any information or can you tell me which books would have information on this?

  • bruceNH
    Original Author
    21 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Carol,
    I think that is a good question for Tim, I know Tim loves the true wild species and appreciates the species for what they are, non-hybrids, pure natural beauty. But Tim also likes to experiment with the wide species crosses.

    If Tim reads this hopefully he might reply about these hybrids.

    Bruce

  • Tim_M
    21 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ashwood Nursery have produced a hybrid between H. thibetanus and H. niger and named it 'Pink Ice'. I have heard that H. thibetanus has been crossed with other species too, although I don't know what those species are. Ashwood have also crossed H. vesicarius with H. niger and produced a hybrid which they have called 'Briar Rose'.

    H.x sternii is a well known and extremely variable hybrid rhat is produced by crossing H. argutifolius with H. lividus. H. lividus can be crossed with H. niger to produce H.x ballardiae. H. argutifolius can be crossed with H. niger to produce H.x nigercors and H.x sternii can be crossed with H. niger to produce H.x ericsmithii.

    There are reports of hybrids being created using H. foetidus as one of the parents but I don't think that any of the resultant plants were strong growers.

    The hybrids produced by crossing acaulescent species with each other should be correctly labelled as H.x hybridus. This name should also be given to plants produced by crossing acaulescent hybrids with each other.

    Tim

  • pansgardener_waz7
    21 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    NOT bored at all.This is GOOD INFO. Most of the work I have done is with orientalis x hybredus better known as oriental hybreds. I can answer the querie about spots.In the oriental hybreds spots are a dominant trait. This means that if you use a spotted plant for either the pod parent (that is the one you take the seed from)or the pollen parent you will get a very high percentage of spotted offspring. If you want good clear colors from your crosses don't use a spotted parent.
    This year I am trying a few crosses that I have not done before. I have crossed lividus with argutifolius Janet Starnes. I like the pinkish color of lividus and the mottled spots of the leaves of Janet starnes. I crossed each with the other. I don't know which one is the pod parent of Sternii. Any comments/ideas appreciated.
    Back to spots.I forgot to mention that the intensity of spotting can be increased by crossing 2 spotted parents.
    I would like to cross the lividus that I have with niger but I dont have a niger that is good enough to bother.
    I have some ordered but they won't be shipped til it warms up in New York and since they are bare root, there will be no flowers till next year. Just another exercise in patience.
    My tibitanus is just coming through the ground now. I only have one but am going to try to aquire another one soon as I'm not crazy about selfing plants and I do want seed. Might have to cross it with something else. I tried crossing it with a pink oriental last year but the flower got botrytus and I had to cut it off. This year its outside not in a greenhouse. We'll see. JoAnn

  • SeniorBalloon
    19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Bruce,

    I am a little confused by the last sentence in this paragraph,

    "The caulescent species of hellebore, argutifolius, foetidus and lividus, will produce plants like theirselves if pollinated with the same species. Argutifolius will hybridize with lividus producing a hybrid called Helleborus x sternii. Argutifolius does not readily cross with H. foetidus or H.lividus."

    Are you saying that though they will cross, it is not easy and will often fail to produce viable seed?

    Thanks,
    jb

  • Greenmanplants
    19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jb,
    A little misleading, H.argutifolius and H. lividus are viewed a very closely related and have no appreciable difference in the amount of DNA per nucleus, many regard them as virtually the same species. They cross readily to give H. sternii, which is in itself fertile and can be used for further crosses as mentioned above. Very varied results can be had and it is very worthwhile experimenting with these, in any variations that you can find.

    H. foetidus is different and I'm not aware of any worthwhile plants resulting from experiments in breeding with it. There are foliage variants including variagation('Pacific Frost?), and redness in the stem and lip of the sepals('Wester Flisk' 'Sienna').

    Sorry Bruce I'm sure you meant something other than lividus when you typed that.

    Cheers Greenmanplants

  • jgwoodard
    19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    reportedly, Ashwood has successfullly crossed 'Briar Rose' (vesicarius x niger) with niger, 'Pink Ice' (niger x thibetanus) with niger, 'Pink ice' with lividus, niger with orientalis (take this for what you will), and niger with H. foetidus 'wester flisk'.
    many of the niger hybrids (e.g. nigersors, ericsmithii) typically produce infertile offspring, though occasionally will produce viable seed. Often the pods swell but never fully develop.

  • Greenmanplants
    19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ashfield nursery in Yorkshire, (Not Ashwood) have been researching the ongoing fertility of the niger hybrids and have some 3rd and 4th generation H. x 'Eric Smithii', ie fertile seeds from the normally infertile cross. They're doing quite a bit of genetic research on the subject.

    Nigercors usually has abundant pods...but no seed inside.

    Ashwood (Kevin Belcher) is trying all sorts of crosses with niger, whether the resultant plants will be good garden plnts remains to be seen. Briar rose, looks quite attractive but I don't know its hardiness. Pink Ice to my eye was not one I would buy. Haven't seen the niger/orientalis or niger/wester flisk cross.

    Cheers Greenmanplants

  • bruceNH
    Original Author
    19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    No problem Greenmanplants, this thread is almost two years old!

    Bruce

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