Generally, the flower is receptive to pollen before it opens fully but the pollen is not mature. Assuming you can get pollen from another flower, this is the best time to try.
You can very easily hybridize the two hybridus plants, but you may not be able to successfully cross a hybridus with a sternii. But it's worth a try, and I have heard a report of an acaulescent species being succesfully crossed with sternii though I have not seen this.
Be aware that your hybridus plants are already hybrids themselves and therefore have mixed genetics. So, even if you selfed one of the plants the offspring may or may not resemble the parent.
Should be fun though and with only a few plants, you will be able to control it fairly easily. If you try to do the hybridus-sternii cross, please update on whether it was successful. Have fun!

The hybridus were far enough along that I pried open the petals and removed the staymens. The pistils continue to grow and from what you say they must be receptive ... but my hope was to pollinate them with pollen from the sternii and the sternii flowers show no signs of opening. So I have no pollen. Strike one.

But the plants all have more flower buds at different stages, and I'm thinking if I keep emasculating the hybridus flowers that, at some point, I will have sternii pollen and get my window of opportunity.

Isn't niger an acaulescent hellebore? If so, the ericsmithii is an acaulescent/xsternii cross.

I am sure I am confused.

jb

I thought I once read that the ericsmithii was a cross like I am trying to make i.e. a cross between a sternii and a hybridus. Today I read otherwise ... but I think it was still described as an acaulescent/xsternii cross.

At any rate, I've already done the deed. I kept emasculating the hybridus flowers as they appeared and about a week ago one of the sternii flowered and I was able to transfer sternii pollen to a few hybridus flowers. I reckon it will be a while before I can tell if it "took". I also plan to try it the other way and transfer some hybridus pollen to a sternii flower when the opportunity next presents itself.

A few days ago the other sternii flowered and so I crossed the two sternii (an "ashwood strain" and a "boughton beauty"). Both sternii have a lot more flower buds and I expect I will keep crossing them with each other and see if I can produce a bunch of sternii seed.

It's nice to have something like this going on in the winter. And then when spring comes I will have the rest of my hybridus plants flowering and can make hybridus crosses.

JB, don't feel bad about being confused - the structure of the genus is complicated at best and if I didn't have a handy-dandy little chart from Will McLewin outlining the botany and genetics of the plants, I'd be pretty confused, too.

Neither niger or vesicarius are considered either caulescent or acaulescent and are generally considered in their own category, as are the interspecific crosses like ericsmithii, sternii, nigercors, ballardiae. In general, the caulescent forms can be crossed among themselves and the acaulescent types among themselves, but hybrids between the two groups are not common (nonexistant?) and I am unaware of any viable crosses to date. And foetidus doesn't readily lend itself to hybridizing at all.

I'd be interested to see how MickeyBob's experiments turn out.

That clears things up nicely. Where did you get your chart? A chart would indeed be very handy.

Is it correct to refer to argutifolius and lividus as species hellebore as opposed to hybrids? Does a cross between two argutifolius result in a hybrid?

I ask becuase I am intrigued and want to purchase an argutifloius and a lividus and try some crosses next year. When I did a search on line there are many for sale. They are mostly named varieties. I am guessing that this is what you get when you cross two argutifolius and the result is market worthy. I am further supposing that you can pick any of the named varieties, perhaps chosen for a specific trait, color, spotting, disease resistance and cross (an argutifolius with lividus) them and you will get an xsternii. What I'm not sure about is if you need to start with something that is a true/native/wild argutifolius and lividus or if the named varieties available will do. And perhaps are even preferred as they have been bred for, hopefully, desirable traits.

I am sure that I am still confused, but enjoying it very much.

Thanks,
jb

I actually got the chart from Will, attending a lecture on hellebores he gave a good number of years ago now at a Heronswood Nursery hellebore open house.

Yes, it is correct to refer to both lividus and argutifolius as species - they are not hybrids, nor should named cultivars of either be considered hybrids. I am not aware of too many named forms of either that are widely available - a few variegated forms of argutifolius and one called 'Silver Lace' with heavy patterning on the leaves. Lividus is a somewhat more tender species and may need additional winter protection in your zone 7 location. I am unfamiliar with any named forms of lividus, but growers don't always adhere to correct nomenclature or cultivar registration and so it is possible there are some out there for sale that are not recognized as truely distinct cultivars.

jb, welcome to the wonderful world of hellebore taxonomy and naming.

Thankfully, Gardengal has you on the right track.
Unfortunately, the vast majority of the information you will have to deal with will be either partially or entirely wrong. For example, many reputable nurseries sell plants labelled as H. orientalis even though it is a rare plant and most don't have a single specimen. They also sell plants labelled as "Orientalis hybrids" that have multiple species involved.

Anyway, yes any argutifolius cross with lividus should be referred to as Helleborus x sternii. Wild or cultivated seed isn't quite as much an issue with the acaulescent plants except of course lividus and argutifolius easily hybridize (And most nurseries in the US do not grow lividus). With the caulescent species (H. argutifolius, H. lividus, H. foetidus) and their hybrids, commercial production of a cultivar is unlikely but of course you will see names out there more often than not. And of course, commercial production of clones is impossible without tissue culture. If you use H. niger the situation changes somewhat but still unlikely.

With the acaulescent (Helleborastrum) species (Helleborus atrorubens, H. croaticus, H. cyclophyllus, H. dumetorum, H. multifidus, H. odorus, H. occidentalis, H, orientalis, H. purpurascens, H. torquatus, and H. viridis), all hybrids should be referred to as Helleborus x hybridus. In this case wild or cultivated seed is more important. If you want to grow an acaulescent species, then try to find wild seed simply because much of the commercial seed is actually hybrid seed sold as species seed, and many of the plants are hybrids sold as species. Or you could ask if the seller knows the source of the seed and take it on good faith.

Of course, if you're just looking for good looking plants, much of this doesn't matter.

Sounds like you'll be having plenty of fun with your new plants.

I checked the plants today and they look like something is happening ...
I don't know if this means there will be viable seed but check this out:

{{gwi:875213}}

How long does it take hellebore seed to ripen?

Something sure is happening. Did you end up pollenating them yourself?
The carpels should continue to swell. It will take weeks but generally you will be able to tell when the seed pods become inflated and then begin to change color and become dry... then they begin to split before the seeds spill out. Seeds are ripe when they are brown to black.
Then it's only 3-4 years until bloom! Raising hellebores from seed can be really exciting.

Yes I pollinated them myself with sternii pollen. I emasculated every hybridus flower as soon as possible so there was no hybridus pollen ... if the seeds are viable then they must be hybridus x sternii crosses!

Keep us posted MikeyBob. Guess it will be a year before we know, but definitely worth keeping records. Typically these crosses will result in abortion, but reports of successes would be meaningful for understanding of hellebores.
By the way, are your sternii blooming outdoors there in VA?

I'm not following why it will take a year ... I thought the seeds (if any) would mature in a matter of weeks and that if planted fresh they would sprout quickly ... I was kind of thinking I'd know something in a few months.

I believe that if left outside here the sternii would die or at least the part above ground would die. I had the plants in a coldframe ... I dug it two feet deep so the plants were in there below ground level and it kept them warm enough ... when the sternii and a couple of the hybridus started to flower I moved them indoors for this experiment.

Virtually all of my seeds germinate December-February (most cotyledons appear by February though the root is often growing by Dec.). There is a way to speed it up if your interested... feasibly could have germination in late summer-early fall.
Some people report germination without a cold period, but a rather foolproof way is to keep them warm (room temperature) and moist for 8 weeks and then put them in the refrigerator. In another 8 weeks or so they will start to germinate. Low temperatures are best but just above freezing (maybe 35 F).
Sternii seeds (and lividus) will typically germinate more rapidly than hybridus or most other species. In some cases, species seed may take 18-24 months (or more) to germinate.

The seed pods from the hybridus/sternii cross grew to a good size but they
didn't exactly swell like they were full of seeds ... I tried pinching one and
it went flat. So I guess having seed pods is no indication of having seeds.
I cut one of the pods open to show what was inside:

{{gwi:875214}}

In contrast, the sternii/sternii cross has produced pods which are swelling and firm
and kind of bumpy like seeds are swelling inside.

Sternii is in itself fertile and capable of onward breeding, you already have several known good named plants and there is scope for more.

Sternii/orientalis cross is very unlikely.

Cheers Greenmanplants

This must be a good place to give some more information on my breeding experiment .

Some years ago I started with just one Helleborus x hybridus of color Rose
( selfed ) . The seedlings are for 60% Rose , but there is also Green , White
and some of them have a touch of Rose . A very small percentage has very
dark flowers .
I planted the best seedlings in my garden by color - groups , collected the
seeds and was waiting another three years to see the results . The last step
is a kind of inbreeding . I still helped the bees but did nothing special to
avoid the bees to disturb the "scientific" results .

It is to early to give general results , some plants must still show their
real color .
The Paler flowered plants are bigger than the Darks . Some have very big stems
and their children too . A small part of this large plants flower easily out
of time , normally they start in December . Some big stems form "pyramids" ,
( are forked ) .
The spotted Pale and Rose give for more than 60% spotted children while the
original plant gave less than 15% spotted children .
The Darks are smaller , in general , and start flowering end February .
They give for more than 90% Dark seedlings .

As always there must be an exception , though . One of the Darks ( less than
1% of the seedlings of the selfed plant ) is very big and goes also for
reblooming as I told for the Paler forms .
The Darks are not spotted , but this one is " marbled " as if the texture of
the spots is very fine . This morning I could observe that the fertilized
flowers are greening what the other Darks do not do .

Here is a link that might be useful: fynwerk